The bones of Willam Dustin

[Brad Stark]

We know the widow of Willam Dustin resents Eddard not bringing his bones home.  We also know Ned took the time to return The Sword of the Morning, and retrieve Lyanna and return her to the crypts of Winterfell, and is strongly motivated by honor.  So why would Ned have left Dustin buried in a cairn made from the tower?  This makes no sense.

 

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge", "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away".  So if eight were buried there, who were they?  If five of the seven had died, there would be 3 more dead, which everyone assumes was Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell, as well as Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower.  The only possible explanation I can think of is that Ned wanted people to believe those 8 were dead, and at least some of them really weren't.  If Arthur lived and wanted people to believe he was dead, and Ned returned the other 7 bodies (8 counting Lyanna), what could Ned possibly say about not returning Arthur's body?  How could he bury Arthur at the tower and return everyone else's body?

 

I believe Eddards five friends really died in the tower.  We have enough of Ned's point-of-view that he was upset at their death and his own survival.  But I'd bet at least 1 and probably all 3 lived.  If this were an all-out battle, Ned and Howland Reed would never have survived.  Howland did or said something to convince the other three not to kill them.  After which, I find it odd that they'd either commit suicide or Ned and/or Howland would stab them in the back and kill them by surprise, and I don't see any other way they could die.  Does anyone else find it odd Martin chose to write "Our knees do not bend easily"?  He could have written "Our knees do not bend", by adding "easily", it implies it is possible.  

[Hos the Hostage]

[deleted post]

misunderstood the original post, but then the title is misleading too.

[DigUpHerBones]

semantics with the "knees do not bend easily" part...

 

if you are going to take it that literally, "our knees do not bend" makes zero sense as well as human anatomy requires it to be able to walk, and sit, and stand up.

 

Ned returning Dawn to Starfall was the same thing as returning Dustin's steed to Barbary, it was a symbolic gesture for not returning the actual bones.

 

in neither case was the body returned, so not sure what point you were trying to make there, either?

[ErasmusF]

Yeah besides that, think of the practical logistics. GRRM isn't great about the practicalities of horseback travel, where you need multiple horses for continuous travel, but I would think transporting the bones of the dead across across the continent would obviously be damned near impossible with only two men, each of whom is equipped for battle.

 

I think a lot is made of the eight cairns. It may be that one of the KG is alive, in which case my money is on Dayne, but the numbers argue well against all three surviving. And I don't think there's any way all three survived yet they killed five other skilled knights.     

[Brad Stark]

Ned took his sister's body back to Winterfell, and didn't mention any difficulty doing it.

[Armstark]

Yeah besides that, think of the practical logistics. GRRM isn't great about the practicalities of horseback travel, where you need multiple horses for continuous travel, but I would think transporting the bones of the dead across across the continent would obviously be damned near impossible with only two men, each of whom is equipped for battle.

Which is why Westeros has an institution that handles the return of the bones: the Silent Sisters. There really is no reason why Ned denied his companions their rightful resting place among their ancestors. If he didn't have time during the rebellion he could have come back years later for the bones or at the very least order some Silent Sisters to retrieve them. Ned values these customs as one can clearly see when he orders Lady to be buried in WInterfell ( a freaking wolf!!).

 

He must have had a very good reason to not return the bones. 

 

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried

 

The first time the infamous promise is mentioned Ned thinks of it in connection with the crypts and burials and especially coming home to rest with the family. So could it be that part of the promise was to not return the bones of Ned comapions and the KG? The question then is: why? I think Lyanna wanted them buried in the mountains where there are no Trees who could assimilate their memories. She wanted to hide her pregnancy/child from the Old Gods.

[Brad Stark]

Which is why Westeros has an institution that handles the return of the bones: the Silent Sisters. There really is no reason why Ned denied his companions their rightful resting place among their ancestors. If he didn't have time during the rebellion he could have come back years later for the bones or at the very least order some Silent Sisters to retrieve them. Ned values these customs as one can clearly see when he orders Lady to be buried in WInterfell ( a freaking wolf!!).

 

He must have had a very good reason to not return the bones. 

 

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried

 

The first time the infamous promise is mentioned Ned thinks of it in connection with the crypts and burials and especially coming home to rest with the family. So could it be that part of the promise was to not return the bones of Ned comapions and the KG? The question then is: why? I think Lyanna wanted them buried in the mountains where there are no Trees who could assimilate their memories. She wanted to hide her pregnancy/child from the Old Gods.

 

This is exactly why I think it means fewer than 8 people were buried in the cairns.  Hiding this is a good reason not to return any bones, and the only good reason I can come up with.

[ChillyPolly]

Hypothesis:

- 3 survivors of the skirmish: Ned, Howland, Willam
- Howland & Willam are the "they" that find Ned with Lyanna
- Ned builds 8 cairns: 4 for his dead friends, 3 for the kingsguard, and 1 for Lyanna. The cairns protect the bodies until decomposition permits the bones to be transported.
- Willam stays behind for some secret purpose. He is too injured to ride, so Ned returns his horse to his widow. Ned cannot return Willam's bones at the same time he retrieves Lyanna's bones, because Willam is still alive at this point.
- Willam eventually dies in Dorne. By the time of Ned's dream, Ned knows that Willam has died: He never lived to ride away.

[Buried Treasure]

Or, Ned and Howland left a troop/army of soldiers a couple of hours ride from the toj and Howland went to fetch them after the fight. To smuggle Jon away without anybody else learning of the baby's presence Ned got on a horse and had Howland say he was taking Dawn to Ashara. Ned left orders for his men to pull down the tower access bury the bodies, and giving orders is second nature for a great lord so it is much the same as if he did it himself.

[Logicsbane]

We know the widow of Willam Dustin resents Eddard not bringing his bones home.  We also know Ned took the time to return The Sword of the Morning, and retrieve Lyanna and return her to the crypts of Winterfell, and is strongly motivated by honor.  So why would Ned have left Dustin buried in a cairn made from the tower?  This makes no sense.
 
"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge", "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away".  So if eight were buried there, who were they?  If five of the seven had died, there would be 3 more dead, which everyone assumes was Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell, as well as Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower.  The only possible explanation I can think of is that Ned wanted people to believe those 8 were dead, and at least some of them really weren't.  If Arthur lived and wanted people to believe he was dead, and Ned returned the other 7 bodies (8 counting Lyanna), what could Ned possibly say about not returning Arthur's body?  How could he bury Arthur at the tower and return everyone else's body?
 
I believe Eddards five friends really died in the tower.  We have enough of Ned's point-of-view that he was upset at their death and his own survival.  But I'd bet at least 1 and probably all 3 lived.  If this were an all-out battle, Ned and Howland Reed would never have survived.  Howland did or said something to convince the other three not to kill them.  After which, I find it odd that they'd either commit suicide or Ned and/or Howland would stab them in the back and kill them by surprise, and I don't see any other way they could die.  Does anyone else find it odd Martin chose to write "Our knees do not bend easily"?  He could have written "Our knees do not bend", by adding "easily", it implies it is possible.

I think you're reaching, for the most part....meaning too big a deal was made of not returning the bodies when you're battle weary, mourning a sister,and have this baby and promise to deal with as well as a long journey back home Via Kings Landing......but...

....I think something is up with the Daynes and Dawn. Correct me if I'm wrong but it was never stated that Ned or Reed actually killed Dayne was it? Only that Reed prevented Dayne from killing Ned. I'm not sure why, or how Dayne yielded or surrendered, and if he did could he have asked for an honorable death or made a deal with Ned and Reed ( one condition being he return Dawn to Starfell?) ?

Crazy, but is Dayne alive and well with his sister, hiding out, helping Ned fulfill his promise? Where could he be?

[Logicsbane]

Ned took his sister's body back to Winterfell, and didn't mention any difficulty doing it.

One body is not 6 bodies.....and no doubt the crown covered the costs.

[ChillyPolly]

One body is not 6 bodies.....and no doubt the crown covered the costs.

 

Skeletons really don't weigh that much.

[Brad Stark]

I think you're reaching, for the most part....meaning too big a deal was made of not returning the bodies when you're battle weary, mourning a sister,and have this baby and promise to deal with as well as a long journey back home Via Kings Landing......but...

....I think something is up with the Daynes and Dawn. Correct me if I'm wrong but it was never stated that Ned or Reed actually killed Dayne was it? Only that Reed prevented Dayne from killing Ned. I'm not sure why, or how Dayne yielded or surrendered, and if he did could he have asked for an honorable death or made a deal with Ned and Reed ( one condition being he return Dawn to Starfell?) ?

Crazy, but is Dayne alive and well with his sister, hiding out, helping Ned fulfill his promise? Where could he be?

 

It was never stated Ned or Reed killed Dayne, or even that he is dead (by reliable narrator).  It was stated Reed did something at the tower to save Ned's life.  This means:

1) Ned, Reed and his companions overpowered and killed Dayne in fair combat, highly unlikely given they were inferior fighters and were at significant disadvantage fighting in the tower.

2) Reed stealthily killed Dayne - hid behind a door and stabbed him in the back, etc.

3) Arthur Dayne surrendered because of something Reed said or did and:

a) was executed by the victors

b) committed suicide

c) pretended to be dead

 

I don't see any other options even being possible.  While I admit 2) is not that far fetched, 3) makes a better story.  3c explains why the bones weren't returned.  It also fits with the "Jon Snow had a twin" theories and the "Ashara is still alive" theories, athough either of those could be false and Arthur could be alive.

[Brad Stark]

semantics with the "knees do not bend easily" part...

 

if you are going to take it that literally, "our knees do not bend" makes zero sense as well as human anatomy requires it to be able to walk, and sit, and stand up.

 

This is an issue with semantics, but not a trivial issue.  Martin chooses his words carefully.  Obviously it is not literal - Ned moonlighting as a knee doctor, and Arthur seeing him for arthritis.

 

 

 

 

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

 

This was from a dream Ned had, so I doubt the conversation took place literally and exactly as described, but some things seem unusual.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the quote "Our knees do not bend easily” could have been written "Our knees do not bend”, unless they surrendered.

 

Ser Gerold says "We swore a vow".  But what vow is he referring to?  If they simply swore to defend Lyanna and Jon, they knew Ned was Lyanna's brother, that he intended no harm, and would let him pass.

 

Why does Ned have sadness in his voice?  Sadness is not the mood of a warrior going into battle.  Notice that while Arthur unsheathes his sword, it does not describe Ned doing the same.  Why not "Ned shouted 'Now it ends!' drawing Ice as he charged forward"?

 

The tone of this suggests against Reed stealthily killing Dayne.  There was a conversation, and Arthur had time to don his helm.   If there was a sneak attack, the battle didn't start this way.  While we could imagine: "'No,' Ned said with sadness in his voice. 'Now it ends.' as the hidden Howland sunk his dagger into Arthur's neck", that isn't the impression I get at all.

[DigUpHerBones]

GRRM also made a point to tell us several times, he was under the milk of poppy and it was a dream.

 

you ever had surgery and been on heavy painkillers? surely you had some f*cked up dreams.

 

meaning none of this could have happened as it did in the text, which is why talking about ToJ, at this point, is like a dog chasing its tail.

[ErasmusF]

 

Skeletons really don't weigh that much.

 

But a baby, armor, an extra sword, and all your provisions do. Plus whatever retinue of servants were left at the ToJ. 

 

 

Which is why Westeros has an institution that handles the return of the bones: the Silent Sisters. There really is no reason why Ned denied his companions their rightful resting place among their ancestors. If he didn't have time during the rebellion he could have come back years later for the bones or at the very least order some Silent Sisters to retrieve them. Ned values these customs as one can clearly see when he orders Lady to be buried in WInterfell ( a freaking wolf!!).

 

He must have had a very good reason to not return the bones. 

 

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried

 

The first time the infamous promise is mentioned Ned thinks of it in connection with the crypts and burials and especially coming home to rest with the family. So could it be that part of the promise was to not return the bones of Ned comapions and the KG? The question then is: why? I think Lyanna wanted them buried in the mountains where there are no Trees who could assimilate their memories. She wanted to hide her pregnancy/child from the Old Gods.

 

I imagine the Silent Sisters were pretty busy and didn't even know about the battle at the ToJ. Ned went in secret, quickly, and without his army. 

 

As for the notion that Lyanna didn't want the dead's memories assimilated, that's a good theory until you remember that Ned brought HER bones back to Winterfell. The reach of the Weirnet almost certainly includes the Winterfell crypts. 

[Masha]

GRRM also made a point to tell us several times, he was under the milk of poppy and it was a dream.

 

you ever had surgery and been on heavy painkillers? surely you had some f*cked up dreams.

 

meaning none of this could have happened as it did in the text, which is why talking about ToJ, at this point, is like a dog chasing its tail.

 

 

If I remember correctly GRRM didn't say it didn't happen, just that it didn't happen in the same order/place/circumstances as in Ned's dream.

 

Ser Gerald, Oswald and Arthur Dayne may have had conversations with Ned long before like at Harrinhall tournament or he overheard their conversation with other people at other meetings regarding different topics entirely but his drugged dream snatched those random words and copy/pasted them into this dream TOJ confrontation. Also, in his fever dream, Ned might have imagined them saying things that other people actually said but he thought they would have said if they could, that they should have said that.

 

His dream just did major editing on the scene. What was originally was straight out conversation/fight - like "where is my sister", "you can't get her", "lets silently fight to the death", was edited into this profound scene about life and duty in his mind.

[awearyman]

This Dream of Ned's is my favorite adumbration of the all the books in the series. It's a fascinating and powerful job of writing by GRRM. 

 

I don't know how much of it actually happened, or if anything in Ned's dream took place. I feel it was more of a perception of what had taken place. More Symbolic than fact. I would find it hard to believe that such dialogue would take place...

[Brad Stark]

I am not arguing the dream should be taken literally.  In real life, I could drink too much, hit my head, and remember how I shot JFK or was how George Washington defeated me after he crossed the Delaware, it would mean nothing at all.  Since GRRM included this dream, and it seems very deliberate and thought out, I am betting it means something.

[ChillyPolly]

 

This is exactly why I think it means fewer than 8 people were buried in the cairns. Hiding this is a good reason not to return any bones, and the only good reason I can come up with.

The text says Ned built 8 cairns.  Problem is, there were (supposedly) 9 bodies .... unless Willam Dustin was not dead yet, in which case there might have been only 8.

At least 2 people found Ned with Lyanna's corpse.  Howland and who else?  Probably Willam Dustin, since his bones are mysteriously missing, and only 8 cairns were built.

However, if Lord Willam was alive at the time, he must have died since, and Ned must be aware of this.  Ned's thoughts say he never lived to ride away.

Lyanna would have probably been in one of the cairns.   Without Silent Sisters on hand to burn the flesh of the bones with special chemicals, then protecting the body under (for instance) a cairn, would be a necessary measure before the bones would be ready for transport.  The only alternative I can think of would be that her body was burned, in deference to Targ funeral customs, until only the bones remained.