From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[Lady Barbrey]

 
One of the underrated bits of this dream is the Last Hero symbolism. 
 

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. Who are you?he demanded of them. What business do you have in Casterly Rock?

 

They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.

 

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. What place is this?

 

Your place. The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, whod lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his fathers voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son theyd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

 

Sister, why has Father brought us here?

 

Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

 

Stay with me,Jaime pleaded. Dont leave me here alone. But they were leaving. Dont leave me in the dark! Something terrible lived down here. Give me a sword, at least.

 

I gave you a sword,Lord Tywin said.

 

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hands breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

 

The first group of 12 and one is the dozen shadowy spearmen, and Jamie himself.  Or perhaps Cersei, with her last light in the world. The torch isn't pale flame, but Cersei, holding the torch, is pale. When they leave, the light sort of symbolically transfers to his sword. He's crying about not taking the last light, then Tywin points out the sword, and it becomes a light. Next, Joffrey is the LH, with 12 shadowy shapes behind him, also with golden hair. So, both times, the LH is bright and golden, but the dozen are shadowy. The LH's 12 companions supposedly died - I say, died and resurrected - and we sometimes see the dozen associated with death when we get this pattern. In Renly's tent, which itself was alive with green light, there were 12 more lights - black iron braziers, whose light was snuffed out by the shadow. Same idea. It seems like the LH is similar to the other 12, but there's something unique about him. Anyway.
 
I've never heard anyone talk about this LH pattern here. The LH pattern is one of the more confusing opens to trace. Much like the Azor Ahai sun-kill-moon pattern, we see many, many people play the roles. Fucking butter bumps and Sansa forge a lightbringer in the scene with Olenna Tyrell. I am pretty sure BBumps is not Azor Ahai. George uses the pattern a lot, so that we will notice, but not everyone who plays the AA role is to be thought of as an avatar of AA or whatever. But Jamie is a pretty major character - so this LH symbolism about him is pretty interesting, especially considering that he had his hands on Oathkeeper, and might "get" the sword again. And of course there's this dream about silvery blue pale fire swords....

That is a great catch about the 12.

I think I mentioned before about corrupted Camelot trios, with Jaime as a Lancelot figure? Lancelot could never be considered a perfect knight because of his sin with Guinevere (read Cersei). So he can never attain the Grail. But he is a Grail Knight, and comes close, dying with great respect due him, though he never really stops loving Guinevere. I think we'll see a variation of this for Jaime. He may not be THE Sword of the Morning like Jon but his heroism will greatly exceed almost everyone else's. And he might be the Last Hero. In fact, the more I think of it the more I like it - he's got more tragic hero symbolism than any other character in the story except perhaps Jon.

Very cool.

By the way, I think George is purposefully working off old romance sagas with his more myth based story lines. For instance, our most common King Arthur story is Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot, but Mallory and others tell the same stories with other character names sometimes with only slight variations. Mark- Tristan and Isolde, for instance, is the Arthur-Lance-Gwen Romance told in the same story. We have a number of Grail knights repeating similar stories, all in the same overreaching tales. Stories are like echoes of one another. George is doing that for sure. We talk about him using history, mythology, fantasy etc as a post-modern genre meld but he's also using medieval structure as well as plots, cycles and echoes rather than solely linear. I might write an essay about this if I'm still alive when the series is finished. I won't have as much competition for publication if I stay away from blue rose analysis!

[Greymoon]

The Sword of the Morning is a title given to a knight of House Dayne...but imo, it wasn't always the case.

 

In the distant past, this Sword of the Morning was (probably) to House Dayne, what the Last Hero is to House Stark:  one mythical/historical figure, that is, in a linguistic/thematic sense connected to the Long Night/The Battle for Dawn...

 

This mythical/historical figure wielded a sword - whether that sword was the actual Dawn or not is irrelevant, whether Dawn is the original lightbringer, is too, imo...the more interesting question is: can one be the Sword of the Morning without wielding Dawn? I think, yes.

 

The hints in the text that Jon will be the next “Sword of the Morning” are numerous, I won't deny that.

 

But, like stated above, I think the Sword of the Morning is first and foremost a historical figure – not a title.  And like others, I doubt Dawn will make a grand appearance. Jon already has a fancy sword, after all...

 

Further, if you think about it, the “Sword of the Morning” is Dawn, metaphorically speaking...What is the dawn, if not the early morning? ...so in a way, the Sword of the Morning = the Sword of Dawn = Dawn, the blade... GRRM is fond of metaphors. A sword is a warrior, a dragon is a Targaryen....

 

More important than the literal sword itself, are imo Dawn's “supposed”, mythical qualities. Dawn was made from a fallen star...

 

So, if we accept that the sword Dawn stands as a metaphor for the human warrior, then Dawn's qualities can be transposed to its human equivalent...And we have a prophetic warrior that is heralded by a bleeding star: the Prince that was Promised.

 

And because the sword is the man and the man is the sword, Jon is the sword forged from a bleeding star. His Night's Watch vows do say "I am the sword in the darkness"...

 

And he is also lightbringer, the bringer of dawn. Thematically speaking, I doubt anyone could deny that the Sword of the Morning, the warrior who wields dawn, is not related to lightbringer....especially when we turn to the Night's Watch vows again: "I am the light that brings the dawn"....and like Lightbringer, Jon was tested and broke and needs to be reforged, with the heart of Nissa Nissa.

 

If the Sword of the Morning = Lightbringer = Jon, then Nissa Nissa = the bleeding Star.

 

I won't expand on the theory here because Yolkboy developed it in length in another thread, but basically Red (bleeding) Star = Melisandre. Reforging the Sword becomes a metaphor for Jon's "rebirth". 

 

In this context Azor Ahai is the invisible hand of fate... or R'hllor if you follow the red faith... and Melisandre is his wife.

 

[Or, Melisandre was not completely in the wrong and Stannis is indeed Azor Ahai - as in, his actions/circumstances precipitated Jon's "breaking".Stannis's presence at the wall made things complicated; Stannis supposed death factored in Jon's rash decision to ride to Winterfell]

[LmL]

No courage needed! Thanks so much for doing this!

I am absolutely following you here. I had not envisioned the red comet as the sword, but everything else crossed my mind, from the moon, the meteor-dragons, the radiation and the ice age as I was reading. I do like the comet as the 'red sword' that is a sign of dragons nowadays. This would not be the original comet at Dany's birth, but perhaps a piece blown into space from the original explosion that now returns as a new comet? Also, aren't comets made of ice?

I actually would imagine that when it says 'wife' it actually means sister considering all the sister-wife and incest in the series. Also the repeating pattern of Nissa Nissa has always sounded like same-same to me.

One thing Im not sure about is taking a celestial event myth too literally and this is where the reality of a sword kind of brings me down to reality. I haven't got everything here obviously but on the face of it i would think that the myth of Azor Ahai bringing the comet that causes the LN by killing the sister-wife and the Bloodstone Emperor bringing the Long Night is the same myth as you say.

However, the black meteorites that fell would not have been dragons, but could metaphorically be called so because it is from them that dragons were 'forged?'. Did the first 'shadows' later bound to existing Planetos wyverns or dragons come from this alien stone? Is this the alternation equivalent to the morning/evening equivalent we see in the other story - fire and shadow? Fire banishes but also creates shadows? It makes me wonder. And Azor Ahai appears again to save the world he doomed, with his 'fiery sword" - Lightbringers, the Dragons, forged from alien shadows and natural beasts - and they do help right the balance, make the ice age retreat, but it's unnatural and contrived. Doesn't it say somewhere that though Azor Ahai defeated the darkness, the Empire of the Dawn never recovers? Is this because Planetos has never recovered either. Dragons are a bandaid?

Shadows drink the light. The original light-drinkers. They also, from what we've seen, drink blood and life force. I'm not sure it's the black stone itself that is in the swords, but the shadows that come from it?

Forgive me if I'm completely off here. You've studied it a lot.

Excellent analysis. Now that I've got the broad strokes, I think the details will be easier to remember so I'll read your essays on this again. Cheers and thanks!

Edit: I just saw your addition upthread. Love the analysis. Edric Shadowchaser sounds Westerosi, don't you think? That's an evocative name.

I was thinking most of this is unlikely to come to light in the series. Then I remembered Illyrio's rings. Is it possible there's a hereditary line from the original empire or Bloodstone Emperor that are keepers of the lore? There might be more of a reason here for Illyrio's Targ backing than suspicions Aegon is related to him.

 

Yes, I agree Eldric Shadowchaser sounds Westerosi.  Ilyrio's rings have been the subject of much debate, for sure, because he has almost all of the gemstones of the GEotD, and the other ones are also highly symbolic - the tiger's eye, for example, screams cotf, with their cat eyes. After you re-read my first two, I can send you to a cool essay about Illyrio's fingers by Blind Beththe Cat Lady. 

 

By the way the two you want to read are Astronomy Explains the Legends of Ice and Fire, and The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai.  I also have a shorter one just about morningstar deities and the astronomy of the comet: Lucifer Means Lightbringer. Feel free to read Language of Leviathan if you wish, as that certainly continues to develop the sword - black stone ideas... really, the black steel Lightbringer is one of the central parts of my theorizing, so it runs through every essay. But those first two outline most of the main theory.

 

There's actually a lot of ways to provide verification of certain parts of the past. Weirwoodnet, of course, for a start. I mean - TWOW could open with Bran seeing a vision of a fiery meteor crashing to the earth, for all we know. He might see something slightly symbolic, more dream like, such as a thunderbolt striking and burning a huge weirwood tree. 

There are a couple of predictions that my research has created which will verify a lot of what I think went down. The main thing is that I am predicting that the comet will return in the next book, and strike the remaining moon, just as the Dothraki legend says. That might sound crazy and distracting from the story, but if you think about it, it doesn't have to be. We all expect the fall of a new Long Night - we should be, anyway - and by that I mean not just a bad winter, but the disappearance of the sun. No more day. If it was a moon destruction that caused the last Long Night, then it stands to reason the same mechanism might cause the new one. Since the remaining moon is an ice moon (theory), we won't get the same result exactly. We might get some supernatural ice storm shower or something. Perhaps blue meteors. Whatever happens, it will simply be the trigger mechanism for the Long Night. Nothing else changes about the story - it;s still about the characters, the Others invasion, forging magic swords and forging people to wield them, as Grey Moon alluded to above. (Hi, Grey Moon! :) ) But if we see that comet in the sky, followed by a moon explosion of any kind... we will all know I am basically right about the last moon destruction. Then I get to do the happy dance, and a personal email will arrive from George Martin telling me how brilliant I am and could he please run this idea by me...  

 

Wait, what just happened? Where I am? I just spaced out for a second, did anything weird happen? Hmm, anyway, one other thing I predict is that Oathkeeper will take fire with black flame, shot through with red. Perhaps in Stoneheart's lair, or perhaps further down the line. Seems likek a stone heart would be a good place to draw the flaming sword... Where's King Arthur when you need him? King Arthur is a woman, baby! Go Brienne! I totally think she is underrated, and that she is a worthy wielder of a dread blade. Her sense of honor and loyalty could make her worthy, or perhaps if her honor becomes misguided, it could be a terrible thing. Either way, she's got real steel, and I would be cheering if she gets to kick some ass with that thing... although she might be bringing it up to Jon, eventually. 

 

As for the rest of your comments, you're mostly on the same page with me. Whether they exact the shadows from the black meters, or use the meteorite themselves, its pretty close to the same thing. I favor the latter, because meteorites contain iron and nickel and could essentially be a ready-made alloy, waiting for a bit of forging. Both Dawn and Lightbringer seem like very advanced weapons, but way before their time. Of course the mythical sounding GEotD may well have had Atlantis-like advanced technology (it would seem to be implied), so maybe that explains it, but a comet or meteor stone could explain it also. Instead of developing metalworking knowledge to the point where they discover adding a bit of nickel to iron can make steel, if the temps are to enough, they might have been able to just stick the comet stone in the oven, and forge it. That way its miraculous, but not inexplicable. 

Some comet goodies: yes, they are made of rock, ice, and loose debris. Frozen rock, might be the way to say it. Most comets are predominately iron. But, they also carry very interesting elements on them from time to time. The important one is Phosphorus. Lucifer is the latin word for morningstar, which also means light-bringer and dawn-bringer, and shining one. "Eosphorus," or phosphorus, is the GREEK word for the same. Same word. Lucifer means lightbringer means phosphorus. Some facts about phosphorus:

• it is white
• it burns brightly
• it is a necessary ingredient to the first chain reactions of life
• scientists think it first came to earth on comets
• it can be added to steel (a tiny bit) to make it sharper  :eek: 
• did I mention the dawn bringer stuff? :)

In other words, I consider Dawn and AA's black sword to both be "Lightbringer swords." To make things interesting, George has presented us with some mixed up fables. Azor Ahai and the red sword are presented as the good guys, who brought the light. Murdering your wife is presented to us as noble. Fire magic and R'hllor are called the lord of light and associated with light.

But, the truth is (theory) that Azor Ahai was the night-bringer, as was his sword. DAWN was the real light-bringer, the sword of the morning, while AA's LB was the SOTE. So... Dawn IS Lightbringer, in a more literal sense, but it wasn't Azor Ahai's sword... unless there is some more complex wrinkle, such as the possibility I discussed in my long response to Voice's red dawn quotes, where the black sword and the white sword were broken and forged into one, which is now somehow completely white.

 

There's always the possibility of wrinkles like this, since we are talking about a series of events, not just one single event. The Long Night had a cause, and then time passed, and then somehow we ended it. It was said to last a generation, but I suspect 6-12 years tops... everyone would die, otherwise, and only voles and cockroaches would survive. I definitely, definitely think that the cotf helped the First Men survive the LN, and this is suggested in Bran's last ADWD chapter where he sees a small underground ecosystem, with blind fish, mushrooms, goats, a bit of dried fruit, etc. 

 

Battle Isle is important, because the fused stone fortress there is the one absolutely positively confirmed toehold of the ancient dragonlords in Westeros. This is a fact, because:

 

only dragon fire and sorcery can produce fused stone shaped into fortresses

the Hightowers built their tower on top of the fused stone fortress, before the LN in the Dawn Age

ergo, the fused stonee fotress existed pre-LN

Valyria arose after the LN

 

ergo ergo, dragonlords existed before Valyria and came to Wetseros. At Battle Isle, which has always been called that, but no one can remember what battle was fought there. 

Any guesses about that? ;)

 

The Dayne's have retrace valyrian features, and George has taken pains to tell us they do not have Targaryen blood. That is because they came form the original dragonlords, the GEotD, before Valyria arose. The Amethyst Empress, who we know had purple eyes and Valyrian features, is the likely suspect for the Dayne ancestor. It may very well be that the BSE AA had a kid with the Am Em / NN, which would represent Lightbringer. Just to be clear - the child of sun and moon is Lightbringer. In the sky, the child of sun and moon is the meteors, and on the ground, it's Jon Snow, or in Dany's case, the dragons (swapped for Rhaego, who would also have been LB). Anyway, the first Dayne, the child of AA and NN, may be our Eldric Shadowchaser. What chases shadows? Light. And of course we have an Edric Stark, and Elric Stark, and an Edric Dayne. 

 

I have found some clues about Eldric perhaps being the LH, the son of AA. It seems he went against his father, and did something noble with his father's evil sword. Or perhaps he took original Ice (Dawn) from the first King of Winter and became the LH with Dawn.  What I am most solid about is that AA was defeated in westeros, and defeated by that cold sword. Check out the sword duels between cold swords and fire swords - the Hound's sword is called "the cold one" twice in the fight with Beric, and Beric's sword breaks against the cold steel. Ser Waymar didn't have a fire sword, but George makes it gleam and shimmer a lot before it is broken by the cold pale sword of the Others. Waymar has LH symbolism too - he takes a dozen wounds, iirc, before the death wound, a LH symbolism trick George uses also with the Smiling Knight and Arthur Dayne. Dayne is the killer here, just like the Other, equating Dawn and the icy pale swords of the Others. Anyway. 

 

At battle isle, AA was defeated - but some part of him was needed still. He might have become undead, like CH. Perhaps when the cold snapped the LH's sword, that's referring to AA's black sword breaking against Dawn (OG Ice). The popular theory is that the cotf helped the LH reforge his sword... so we have a broken fire sword being reforged. My theory was in line with Radio Westeros on this - it was reforged with dragonglass added in. 

Think about the light drinking black moon meteor stone. The black bloodstone. That's a kind of frozen fire - those meteors were molten when the moon exploded, and cooled into black stone, which feel through the atmosphere, burning red. On the ground, it is cold black greasy stone. So, frozen fire - but frozen SHADOW fire, really, since it is corrupted fire, shadow-bringing fire. "From a smoking (moon) tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire." People have interpreted this as referring to JonCon, and the shadow fire to refer to fAegon, presumably fAegon Blackfyre. This may be - the astronomy meanings are always double meanings, sitting beneath another more direct meaning. But what's cool is that people made the mental leap from "shadow fire" to black fire." We've seen Ned's blade and Stannis's blade, both of which symbolize AA's black steel LB, become "shadowswords"at various times. I think this is a unified concept - the black fire is shadow fire. The beats that breath shadow fire, therefore, have already been seen - the black dragons Drogon and Balerion. Black fire, shot through with red. The Targ sword is called blackfyre - I am guessing they have a vague memory of a flaming sword, which burned with black fire, to match their black dragons. It might be something of a legend, or the name may have been around for centuries. Who knows, maybe it's just a clue from George - but the penultimate image of a dragonlord is a black dragon rider wielding a flaming sword which matches their dragon's black fire. Armored in darkness, head to heel, like Rhaegar. 

 

Point being - Azor Ahai's black sword was frozen shadow fire, but contained no frozen bright fire, or natural fire. It was not a balanced fire weapon. By adding obsidian to it, frozen natural fire, the sword would now have shadow and bright fire aspects, making it a balanced fire sword. This I had been thinking of as the LH's sword, but there's a good argument for Dawn being the LH's sword. Again, perhaps two broken swords were reforged into one... still working this out. As you have seen... Vpoce and I have a couple long personal message threads, one is called "how to make a magic sword," and we have discussed lots of material compositions, formulas, etc. I think we used to agree more than we do now, lol. 

 

I have found clues of a 3 part composition - glass, stone, and metal. Dragonglass, black bloodstone, and black meteorite iron / steel. For Dawn, milkglass instead of dragonglass, and pale phosphorus comet stone instead of black bloodstone, and the iron ore from the meteorite. Glass, stone, metal. Oh, and diamonds, as the bonus fourth element, though perhaps symbolic - dragon teeth are called black diamond, while the SOTM constellation has a white diamond star in the hilt. 

One of my fav V steel swords is Nightfall, and it has a moonstone pommel. That's a nice clue - moon meteor stones went into a sword associated with nightfall. That sword was wielded by the Red Kracken, who like many others plays the Azor Ahai / Bloodstone Emperor role. 

 

I have a bit of hope for Jon and Dany because they seem to have a mix going on. Jon is armoeed in darkness and black ice, but his shadow is white. Dany rides the black dragon, but she herself is the "silver queen." Maybe Dany will go all black in some way, and Jon will turn white in some way, to complete the dichotomy... who knows, I'm cautious about predict the future. If I look forward, I am lost. ;)

 

Oh and one other thing - my theory is that the comet split in half when it rounded the sun.  This is something that happens in real life - the gravity of a celestial body can pull on the cop met enough to fracture it or destroy it completely. Tywin splits Ned's sword in half - he's the lion, the sun, and he splits the comet. Them one half of the comet hits the fire moon, the other half is a near miss... and continues on its way... only to return in the main story...

 

It's been radiated by the explosion, and this is probably when it turned red. You see, red comets aren't real. That's make believe (with the exception that local atmospheric conditions can make a comet appear red, on occasion, but I digress...). Real comets are... drumroll... blue and silver/white! A match for Jamie and Brienn'e swords in Jamie's dream. But after the explosion of the fire moon, I am thinking the surviving half was magically radiated, turned red, and its comet stone may be black now too. Originally the comet stone was probably the white phosphorus stone - and indeed, I think I have found clues that the Dawn meteor ma have broken off before the comet impacted the moon... meaning that the starfall meteor is pure comet stone, never fertilizing a moon. This is why Dawn would be superior to dark LB in a battle  - it is balanced. If we reforged dark LB with dragonglass, maybe its light wouldn't be all shadowy. At that point it might kick Others's ass.  

 

But getting back to comet color - I see a pale stone at first, burning blue and silver... then after the fiery explosion, a black stone burning red. The moon meters themselves were definitely black stones burning red, but the remaining half of the comet may be black burning red too. Or perhaps its still a pale stone, but burning red. That's the one Voice would be rooting for, if he accepted my comet theory, which he stubbornly refuses.   :bang:   :box:  :laugh: 

I do not think fire swords kill fire people, as some suggest - I think that's Sly Wren saying that - I think you have to use ice against fire, and vise versa. But that's just speculation, mostly. 

 

Another idea for Dawn meteorite would be that a piece of the ice moon peeled of from the shrapnel of the fire moon explosion. That would make it a more strictly ice sword, as opposed to a neutral comet sword. 

[LmL]

That is a great catch about the 12.

I think I mentioned before about corrupted Camelot trios, with Jaime as a Lancelot figure? Lancelot could never be considered a perfect knight because of his sin with Guinevere (read Cersei). So he can never attain the Grail. But he is a Grail Knight, and comes close, dying with great respect due him, though he never really stops loving Guinevere. I think we'll see a variation of this for Jaime. He may not be THE Sword of the Morning like Jon but his heroism will greatly exceed almost everyone else's. And he might be the Last Hero. In fact, the more I think of it the more I like it - he's got more tragic hero symbolism than any other character in the story except perhaps Jon.

Very cool.

By the way, I think George is purposefully working off old romance sagas with his more myth based story lines. For instance, our most common King Arthur story is Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot, but Mallory and others tell the same stories with other character names sometimes with only slight variations. Mark- Tristan and Isolde, for instance, is the Arthur-Lance-Gwen Romance told in the same story. We have a number of Grail knights repeating similar stories, all in the same overreaching tales. Stories are like echoes of one another. George is doing that for sure. We talk about him using history, mythology, fantasy etc as a post-modern genre meld but he's also using medieval structure as well as plots, cycles and echoes rather than solely linear. I might write an essay about this if I'm still alive when the series is finished. I won't have as much competition for publication if I stay away from blue rose analysis!

 

I'm outt of time for tonight, but I pretty much agree with all of that. Have you read any of Lady Gwyn's Arthurian essays? She goes waaaay deep. ;)

[Sly Wren]

You and I are on the same page here. I think this logic is heightened in the World book. Every nation experienced the darkness. Only northern ones experienced the Others and the ice. If the darkness had continued, the whole planet would have turned to ice and the Others would overrun it, but it was stopped with the return of the Dawn. Ice is the symptom and perhaps a northern symbol but not the causal agent.

Yes--the problem=darkness. Old Nan's tales about the Long Night and the Last Hero are about darkness and cold. But the other myths we hear about the heroes are about driving out the darkness. The stories mix together, but the Others don't come when it's just cold, but when it's dark. Then they bring extra cold.

 

Yes, but how? The imbalance didn't start with Valyrian dragons. It might have nothing to do with dragons at all even the early ones if they weren't associated with sorcery. It might have everything to do with that first palestone meteor that the Daynes found, and it's the 'splitting' of the natural night/day order into separate personified functions that's upsetting everything now. Nights and days are contrived, unnatural, on Planetos. Anyway, I don't know. Will have to go back to thd text because my conjecture is flying too far away from it. What is your suspiciin?

I'm with the "the Children are using blood magic" camp on the Long Night--at least for now. Blood magic in Martinlandia is BAD!!! Powerful, but never ends well. Too many traces of blood sacrifice in the North. And the Children, or at least factions of them, could very well have seen no other way out--like Dany and her blood magic.

 

But I fully admit we don't have enough information to throw down on that yet. Only traces.

 

Still, I think that's one reason why Jon-the-warg-with-two-selves is in a better position to avoid blood magic. Can't avoid cost, but can avoid abomination. And Jon has rejected the abomination of Craster and Mel. Even appalled by Val's reaction to Shireen, despite his attraction to Val. Jon's humanity wins out--if not his communication skills. Am thinking it's part of the counter to unnatural blood magic. How? Not sure.

[Sly Wren]

Yes, it does. I'm going to spoiler tag the whole dream below. It's huge.
[Spoiler][/spoiler]
Slywren, Again we have another symbolic visit to the underworld, with an epiphany moment after. I haven't looked to see if anything additional was foreshadowed following the dream, but Jaime does begin to rely more on his wits. (What would Tyrion do?) This is also a big turning point for his honor.

Yes--it's Jaime's break from his family, or at least realizing they really aren't going to back him up. Brienne's a truer friend/family than Tywin or Cersei, his actual twin. Jaime breaks her chains and arms her--then they are twins in swords United in purpose.

 

It will be interesting to compare when Jon actually gets to the underworld. The Stark crypt is a real House of the Undying, vs. Dany's with warlocks. And unlike Jaime, Jon is not abandoned by his family in the underworld--he's already seen Tree-Bran as a potential guide. That tie--warging and family--seems like Jon has a better chance.

 

But Jaime with Brienne also makes me think he has a chance, vs. Dany with Drogon. Yes, Drogon toasts the creepy blue people in the HotU, but he's a dragon NOT natural. Jaime is getting a new, true twin in Brienne in his underworld dream. I think that is in part what the twin swords are about--Jaime's only safe with Brienne, not his family. 

 

I guess I don't see it as anomaly. The blue fire of the sword really belongs to Brienne as sister-spirit to Lyanna (who is envisioned once by Dany of all people as a grey smoke horse with a blue fire mane, and then of course the blue winter roses). Jaime's sword catches its fire from her and burns blue. It's not passion like a red fire would be, it's inspiration, hope, honour, a dream of a new spring, dawn,a new person - it's his hero Dayne the sword of the morning come again as inspiration in the midst of the blackness of his utter self-abhorrence and despair. It was one of the most moving passages in the book for me. White or grey sword/blue fire - Dayne/Stark. Jaime patterned on Dayne, Brienne on Lyanna, or both together it doesn't matter.

These are dream visions - the swords don't react in colour to Jaime's environment but to him himself. And I do believe strongly they were sent in some manner through the stump.

I agree on Jaime's parallel to Arthur--but he's also realizing his failure as Arthur. As dark as it is, he's okay with Brienne, even after his family abandons him, until the KG show up. Then Jaime's faith fails him. Even with Brienne. So, having trouble seeing a Lyanna parallel to Brienne. . . 

 

But with Brienne there as his twin, the fact that she's the one he's told about Aerys and the wildfire--makes me think she, too, will be in his place. Has to kill who she's sworn to for the greater good. 

[Sly Wren]

The Sword of the Morning is a title given to a knight of House Dayne...but imo, it wasn't always the case.

 

In the distant past, this Sword of the Morning was (probably) to House Dayne, what the Last Hero is to House Stark:  one mythical/historical figure, that is, in a linguistic/thematic sense connected to the Long Night/The Battle for Dawn...

 

This mythical/historical figure wielded a sword - whether that sword was the actual Dawn or not is irrelevant, whether Dawn is the original lightbringer, is too, imo...the more interesting question is: can one be the Sword of the Morning without wielding Dawn? I think, yes.

 

The hints in the text that Jon will be the next “Sword of the Morning” are numerous, I won't deny that.

 

But, like stated above, I think the Sword of the Morning is first and foremost a historical figure – not a title.  And like others, I doubt Dawn will make a grand appearance. Jon already has a fancy sword, after all...

 

Further, if you think about it, the “Sword of the Morning” is Dawn, metaphorically speaking...What is the dawn, if not the early morning? ...so in a way, the Sword of the Morning = the Sword of Dawn = Dawn, the blade... GRRM is fond of metaphors. A sword is a warrior, a dragon is a Targaryen....

1. Agree that the warrior matters, not just the sword. We get that both in th Dayne tradition of the Sword of the Morning and the AA story--sword and wielder developing together through sacrifice.

 

2. And agree that is seems highly possible Dawn was not originally the Daynes. That it likely belonged to the Starks.

 

3. But I really think it will make an appearance. It's the one completely unique magical sword that actually exists in world--people have seen it and described it. Talked about it's qualities. It's not a myth or pure metaphor. It's just waiting to be used. 

 

4. As for Jon's needing a sword--Longclaw is magical Valyrian steel. But again, it's the bastard sword. Jon has longed for a true greatsword. THE true great sword of his father's house to be declared worthy to be a Stark. And he talks about how Longclaw doesn't feel quite right in his hand. It's a step forward in his sword-wielding life. Not the destination. Really think after all Jon's been through, he's getting that sword.

 

More important than the literal sword itself, are imo Dawn's “supposed”, mythical qualities. Dawn was made from a fallen star...

 

So, if we accept that the sword Dawn stands as a metaphor for the human warrior, then Dawn's qualities can be transposed to its human equivalent...And we have a prophetic warrior that is heralded by a bleeding star: the Prince that was Promised.

 

And because the sword is the man and the man is the sword, Jon is the sword forged from a bleeding star. His Night's Watch vows do say "I am the sword in the darkness"...

 

And he is also lightbringer, the bringer of dawn. Thematically speaking, I doubt anyone could deny that the Sword of the Morning, the warrior who wields dawn, is not related to lightbringer....especially when we turn to the Night's Watch vows again: "I am the light that brings the dawn"....and like Lightbringer, Jon was tested and broke and needs to be reforged, with the heart of Nissa Nissa.

 

If the Sword of the Morning = Lightbringer = Jon, then Nissa Nissa = the bleeding Star.

 

I won't expand on the theory here because Yolkboy developed it in length in another thread, but basically Red (bleeding) Star = Melisandre. Reforging the Sword becomes a metaphor for Jon's "rebirth". 

 

In this context Azor Ahai is the invisible hand of fate... or R'hllor if you follow the red faith... and Melisandre is his wife.

 

[Or, Melisandre was not completely in the wrong and Stannis is indeed Azor Ahai - as in, his actions/circumstances precipitated Jon's "breaking".Stannis's presence at the wall made things complicated; Stannis supposed death factored in Jon's rash decision to ride to Winterfell]

Very cool stuff. And I agree--the fallen star imagery is key. Though I admit I really want to know how all of that actually worked. Given that Martin didn't tell us HOW Mott worked with Oathkeeper, just the basic outcomes, am pretty sure I'm not finding out how in the name of all that's holy you can make a sword out of a star.  :frown5:

 

On the "reforging the sword" is Jon's rebirth--I like it. But I think it works both ways. Reforging the broken sword would be reuniting for Jon. But, as you said above, the wielder is also the sword. Jon's been forged and proven again and again. While Oathkeeper has been defiled. 

 

So, could Jon get a reforged Ice? Absolutely. But I really think the milkglass sword to go with the milkglass Wall where Jon's been proving himself true to the original purpose of the NW that guards the milkglass Wall--I think all of that imagery, along with the proving of the sword wielder is going to matter. Because it's what Jon sees himself, not just what the reader knows. . . 

 

I do not think fire swords kill fire people, as some suggest - I think that's Sly Wren saying that - I think you have to use ice against fire, and vise versa. But that's just speculation, mostly. 

You're right, As a general principle, not sure it works. 

 

But in world: the fire sword, Oathkeeper, ain't no normal sword anymore. It drinks in light and probably fire. So it isn't effective against fire because it's "fiery," but because it magically takes fire into itself. Like drinking in the fire of Rhllor UnCat drank in from Beric. Or the fire-made-flesh of Drogon.

 

So, not "fiery" per se, but this particular fire-based sword is uniquely "qualified" to take fire from other fiery things. Which makes it uniquely powerful--against fire. 

[OuttaOldtown]

I applaud your courage here. ;)

Let's see.

When AA stabbed Nissa Nissa, her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon. This story supposedly took place during the LN. In AGOT, Dany hears Doreah tell her a Qarthine legend - we used to have two moons. One day one of the moons wandered to close to the sun and, scalded by the sun's fire, cracked like an egg and poured forth a thousand thousand dragons, and the dragons drank the fire of the sun.

That's the first connection - the moon cracks in both stories. Of course you are familiar with the idea that the red comet is strongly associated with dragons - and in world myth, we find comets depicted as dragons everywhere from China to both American continents.

Azor Ahai wields the comet, and he is the warrior of fire. A "solar king." He holds the comet, and Nissa Nissa is the moon. The image of a fire warrior sticking a red hot sword into the heart of a woman symbolizes a fiery comet destroying the moon. Because the story says the moon cracked from being to close to the sun, I figured, "the moon must have been in eclipse position when the comet struck. This would also be the only alignment that would create the image of the sun wielding the comet like a sword. With the moon superimposed over the sun, the comet would stick out from both like a sword. I have a picture of this on my wordpress page. Go to www.lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com and scroll down, look on the right side. You'll see it.

So - the moon is hit by a comet and gives birth to a thousand thousand dragons. Since comets and meteors can be perceived as dragons, I interpret this myth as referring to a hellacious meteor shower - which is exactly what would happen if you managed to explode a moon. Large meteor impacts on earth throw up huge amounts of debris, and if the impact is large enough, this causes a nuclear winter, where the skies are grey and purple and the sun can hardly be seen, if at all. Temperatures lower, and this can cause a small ice age. At this point, you can see that this event would work very well as a cause for the Long Night.

And of course, all powerful nature forces in ASOIAF are magical - so this wasn't just a moon exploding, not merely large meteor impacts. If the Doom of Valyria was a magical version of a volcanic eruption, then so to was this long night mega-disaster. I have connected all the greasy black stone, which drinks the sun's light, just as the thousand thousand dragon meteors did. Those meteors exhibit a kind of magical toxicity - the more greasy black stone, the worse it is. Asshai has the most, and it's like a magical nuclear fallout zone. Yeen is second, and while colonies disappear there, Jamestown style. Isle of Toads has weird fishy people, and lots of dark magic and horror took place at Gorgai / Gorgossos right next door.

So, the Bloodstone Emperor. He was supposedly the dude who usurped the throne of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which was Dawn Age forerunner to Yi Ti and Leng and basically everything east of the Bones Mountains. I argue that Asshai was the capital of this empire, and that before the LN disaster, it wasn't all fucked up. The Bloodstone E's usurpation and murder of his sister, the Amethyst Empress, was called the Blood Betrayal and caused the Long Night, supposedly. He worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky and practiced every kind of dark magic you can imagine. Supposedly he was defeated by Azor Ahai, but I don't think that's the case. Azor Ahai, first of all, sounds like a bad guy. I don't believe you make a noble weapon of light and love by killing your wife. Shocker, I know. Many point out that self-sacrifice is noble, while murder is not.

Considering the astronomy, the cause of the Long Night was the celestial "forging" of Lightbringer. The sky events and ground events should match - which implies that Azor Ahai's murder of his wife was perhaps the Blood Betrayal - AA = BSE, and NN = Amethyst Empress. There a lot of evidence connecting the two, which is in my Black Hole Moon essay in my signature. Anyway, if AA was this BSE guy, he worshipped a black stone and practiced blood magic - so I think he made "Lightbringer" out of the black stone.

That takes us to Neds sword - it drinks the light. It may be that Neds sword is actually not 400 years old from Valyria, but the actual LB of Azor Ahai. More likely is that all V Steel actually has this black stone as an ingredient, which is why all V steel is mysteriously dark. In real life, the hotter the forging temps, the more pure and bright the steel turns out. Dragon fire forged steel should be shiny silver. But it's almost black. V steel is also made with blood sacrifice, just as LB was.
 
ETA: I came back an hour later and added this bit:
 
Azor Ahai is strongly tied to Asshai. His name translates to "fire dragon" in vedic sanskrit, which is the language that Mithras first breathed life in. Mithras is a huge Azor Ahai influence. Anyway, dragons came from Asshai, fire magic seems strong there, Azor Ahai came from Asshai, and I say that the GEotD capital was there too. The BSE worshipped a black stone and practiced dark arts; Asshai is made of black sun drinking stone and it is the home of the dark arts. Actually, all of the 5 names for AA come from places that practice dark arts, except "Eldric Shadowchaser" whose origin is mysterious. Anyway, the point is the gemstone emperors.
 
In Dany's wake the dragon dream, she sees the ghosts of kings if faded raiment, with silver, gold, and platinum white hair, pale fire swords, and eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline, and jade. Those are 4 of the 8 gemstones associated with the gemstone emperors. Euron draws a line between the Am Empress and Dany by describing her as a dragon queen with eyes of amethyst. Euron has been to Asshai, and claims to have seen golden statues with gemstone eyes. The dream itself tells us that the gemstones of these emperors is associated with eye color, and Euron confirms it. Ergo, we can say that the purple eyed Valyrians are probably the descendants of the GEotD / ancient Asshai'i, just as TWOIAF suggests. Most people took these ghosts to be Valyrian ancestors, but TWOIAF gave us the info to realizer they come from the Dawn Age, before Valyria. 
 
The GEotD collapsed during the Long Night, and was never reformed. Yi TI later sprang up in the same area and laid claim to some of their legacy, dressing in gold and jade and calling themselves god-emperor. But they are not the GEotD. GEotD is dawn age, and Yi Ti post Long Night. 
 
So: dragonlords in Asshai in the Dawn Age, and they had swords of pale fire. The Bloodstone E corrupted everything, it would seem - and he's got that black stone, and if he is AA, then he made his sword from that stone (says I). It burns red - the terrible color of blood and flame and sunsets - not pale fire. Incidentally, the more pure a fire's fuel source, the paler and bluer the flame, and the hotter the flame. Darker reds and oranges indicate a dirtier fuel source, and a less hot fire.  It all fits - pale swords from the DAWN empire, and black swords with red fire from the corruptor, AA the BSE. 
 
Fused stone construction is key. The Valyrians built fused black stone fortresses with dragon flame and sorcery, including Dragonsteon, Volantis, Tyrosh, and of course all over Valyria. Only one way to make this stone - dragon fire, controlled by dragonlords, and sorcery. So over in the lands of the former GEotD, we find the five forts, built of fused stone, and supposedly long predating Yi Ti. Then we find the same thing at Oldtown, on Battle Island, underneath the Hightower... which was built in the dawn age.
 
Boom. Dragonlords came to Oldtown, in the Dawn Age, before the Long Night. And if Azor Ahai has any relevance to westeros at all... he came too. 

Beyond the same black stone present on Battle Isle there's several things about Oldtown that connect to the Empire of the Dawn & the BE. As you pointed out this occurred in the Dawn age prior to Valyria, much of what the Valyrians learned related to dragons & sorcery likeky came from Asshai. So other connections must begin with the fact that multiple glass candles & old books about dragons can be found in Oldtown. The first Hightowers are said to be traced back to the Battle Isle prior to building a tower, they also have connections to sorcery & necromancy. I find the Starry Sept kind of suspect, if their is a place in Westeros connected to the Cult of the Starry Wisdom I can think of no place that fits the bill better. Another, and this may be a reach, thing that jumped out at me was the selection process to determine which Archmaester becomes seneschal, whichever draws the 'black stone' must perform the duty for the coming year.

So while the 'sword' is at Starfall I think the 'keys' are in Oldtown, both figuratively & literally 😊

I usually like to present points like this with quotes from the books & deeper opinions. Time restraint..

[OuttaOldtown]

1. Agree that the warrior matters, not just the sword. We get that both in th Dayne tradition of the Sword of the Morning and the AA story--sword and wielder developing together through sacrifice.
 
2. And agree that is seems highly possible Dawn was not originally the Daynes. That it likely belonged to the Starks.
 
3. But I really think it will make an appearance. It's the one completely unique magical sword that actually exists in world--people have seen it and described it. Talked about it's qualities. It's not a myth or pure metaphor. It's just waiting to be used. 
 
4. As for Jon's needing a sword--Longclaw is magical Valyrian steel. But again, it's the bastard sword. Jon has longed for a true greatsword. THE true great sword of his father's house to be declared worthy to be a Stark. And he talks about how Longclaw doesn't feel quite right in his hand. It's a step forward in his sword-wielding life. Not the destination. Really think after all Jon's been through, he's getting that sword.
 
Very cool stuff. And I agree--the fallen star imagery is key. Though I admit I really want to know how all of that actually worked. Given that Martin didn't tell us HOW Mott worked with Oathkeeper, just the basic outcomes, am pretty sure I'm not finding out how in the name of all that's holy you can make a sword out of a star.  :frown5:
 
On the "reforging the sword" is Jon's rebirth--I like it. But I think it works both ways. Reforging the broken sword would be reuniting for Jon. But, as you said above, the wielder is also the sword. Jon's been forged and proven again and again. While Oathkeeper has been defiled. 
 
So, could Jon get a reforged Ice? Absolutely. But I really think the milkglass sword to go with the milkglass Wall where Jon's been proving himself true to the original purpose of the NW that guards the milkglass Wall--I think all of that imagery, along with the proving of the sword wielder is going to matter. Because it's what Jon sees himself, not just what the reader knows. . . 
 
You're right, As a general principle, not sure it works. 
 
But in world: the fire sword, Oathkeeper, ain't no normal sword anymore. It drinks in light and probably fire. So it isn't effective against fire because it's "fiery," but because it magically takes fire into itself. Like drinking in the fire of Rhllor UnCat drank in from Beric. Or the fire-made-flesh of Drogon.
 
So, not "fiery" per se, but this particular fire-based sword is uniquely "qualified" to take fire from other fiery things. Which makes it uniquely powerful--against fire. 

Not so sure it's gonna work like that. Consider that Dany, who by all logic would seem to be a champion of fire/light is bound to a black dragon. Meanwhile Jon, in the Nights Watch, is bound to a white direwolf. Bran's is named Summer. As I already stated the Others, who are associated with the Long Night use pale white/blue swords.

[LmL]

Beyond the same black stone present on Battle Isle there's several things about Oldtown that connect to the Empire of the Dawn & the BE. As you pointed out this occurred in the Dawn age prior to Valyria, much of what the Valyrians learned related to dragons & sorcery likeky came from Asshai. So other connections must begin with the fact that multiple glass candles & old books about dragons can be found in Oldtown. The first Hightowers are said to be traced back to the Battle Isle prior to building a tower, they also have connections to sorcery & necromancy. I find the Starry Sept kind of suspect, if their is a place in Westeros connected to the Cult of the Starry Wisdom I can think of no place that fits the bill better. Another, and this may be a reach, thing that jumped out at me was the selection process to determine which Archmaester becomes seneschal, whichever draws the 'black stone' must perform the duty for the coming year.

So while the 'sword' is at Starfall I think the 'keys' are in Oldtown, both figuratively & literally 😊

I usually like to present points like this with quotes from the books & deeper opinions. Time restraint..

I don't think you're trying to be funny intentionally, but if you had read one of my long ass, quote laden theories before, you'd realize why what you just said is so funny. ;)

Yes, to all of that, regarding Oldtown. I find all of that relevant, to say the least. You and I are noticing the same things there. Yeah, Starry Sept huh? Ok guys. Looks an awful lot like the night sky in there, what with the black marble and tiny flickering points of light.

You might take a look at the "Fingerprints of he Dawn" essay in my sig and tell me if I missed anything. :)

[Sly Wren]

Not so sure it's gonna work like that. Consider that Dany, who by all logic would seem to be a champion of fire/light is bound to a black dragon. Meanwhile Jon, in the Nights Watch, is bound to a white direwolf. Bran's is named Summer. As I already stated the Others, who are associated with the Long Night use pale white/blue swords.

Completely fair--I'm guessing like the rest of us.

 

But Dany is the mother of dragons ONLY via blood sacrifice. By embracing Viserys' ideas (has she lost her mind?). By not looking back (why wouldn't she look back at how Targs how failed? Considered she's going down the same path that brought the Doom?). And now she's going to be at the head of a Dothraki khalassar--that attacks and destroys. They don't build "civilizations." Or "save" people. They only champion themselves.

 

Dany wants to be a champion of fire, but am having a hard time seeing that list of actions and allies as "saving." Fire consumes. ETA: Like Oathkeeper consumes fire.

 

Agree on the Others' swords. But as has also been said above--ice is transformative depending on light. The Wall transforms in the light--changeable moods. So, the fact that ice is used for the Others' sword--we've seen in the North and Beyond the Wall (let alone at the Wall) how ice is not an absolute. Depends on the light. And dawn is the opposite of dusk/twilight--when the Others first appear.

 

Bottom line: the colors and fire vs. ice imagery in the novels matter. But not in isolation. Other imagery and character development matters, too. And Jon sees the Wall transformed at dawn. Sees the ice transformed at dawn outside Craster's--after instinctively rejecting the warm fire of Craster's house, which is built on blood sacrifice. What Jon sees. learns, and values himself has to be considered, too, not just fire vs. ice and colors.

[LmL]

Not so sure it's gonna work like that. Consider that Dany, who by all logic would seem to be a champion of fire/light is bound to a black dragon. Meanwhile Jon, in the Nights Watch, is bound to a white direwolf. Bran's is named Summer. As I already stated the Others, who are associated with the Long Night use pale white/blue swords.

Yeah I view Oathkeeper a bit differently. I don't view it as defiled. Red and black, night and blood - those are the colors it likes. What it did not like was Lannister crimson - it prefers blood red. That terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. The important thing it is doing is offering blood sacrifice to weirwoods... hats the same thing Ned did with the sword.

Oh and Oathkeeper is completely unique as well, or you could say OK and Widows Wail are unique. Unique, magical, and unlike Dawn, already in the action and in the hands of important characters. Even though those are sun drinking swords, they are not anti-fire. The dragons meteors are said to have drank the sun's fire - and that "is why dragons breathe flame." That implies the swords drink the fire but can spit it back out too. I just think that fire will match the colors of the steel - as it does in Jamie's dream - and come out black and red.

[OuttaOldtown]

Completely fair--I'm guessing like the rest of us.
 
But Dany is the mother of dragons ONLY via blood sacrifice. By embracing Viserys' ideas (has she lost her mind?). By not looking back (why wouldn't she look back at how Targs how failed? Considered she's going down the same path that brought the Doom?). And now she's going to be at the head of a Dothraki khalassar--that attacks and destroys. They don't build "civilizations." Or "save" people. They only champion themselves.
 
Dany wants to be a champion of fire, but am having a hard time seeing that list of actions and allies as "saving." Fire consumes. ETA: Like Oathkeeper consumes fire.
 
Agree on the Others' swords. But as has also been said above--ice is transformative depending on light. The Wall transforms in the light--changeable moods. So, the fact that ice is used for the Others' sword--we've seen in the North and Beyond the Wall (let alone at the Wall) how ice is not an absolute. Depends on the light. And dawn is the opposite of dusk/twilight--when the Others first appear.
 
Bottom line: the colors and fire vs. ice imagery in the novels matter. But not in isolation. Other imagery and character development matters, too. And Jon sees the Wall transformed at dawn. Sees the ice transformed at dawn outside Craster's--after instinctively rejecting the warm fire of Craster's house, which is built on blood sacrifice. What Jon sees. learns, and values himself has to be considered, too, not just fire vs. ice and colors.

Don't get me wrong Sly, I think your opinions are very astute & I agree with much of what I've read from you. In general i try to avoid the trappings of the old " good guy carries the sword of light & the bad guy has the black sword"..

[OuttaOldtown]

I don't think you're trying to be funny intentionally, but if you had read one of my long ass, quote laden theories before, you'd realize why what you just said is so funny. ;)

Yes, to all of that, regarding Oldtown. I find all of that relevant, to say the least. You and I are noticing the same things there. Yeah, Starry Sept huh? Ok guys. Looks an awful lot like the night sky in there, what with the black marble and tiny flickering points of light.

You might take a look at the "Fingerprints of he Dawn" essay in my sig and tell me if I missed anything. :)

It's an excellent essay, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it 😊

[Sly Wren]

Don't get me wrong Sly, I think your opinions are very astute & I agree with much of what I've read from you. In general i try to avoid the trappings of the old " good guy carries the sword of light & the bad guy has the black sword"..

:cheers:

And I completely agree. It's one of the reasons why I think Jaime and Brienne have the "corrupt" twin sword. Jaime: thought to have defiled his sword, but did it for a REALLY good reason. Brienne: also assumed to have killed Renly. But didn't. The sword is now making offerings to the original owner's gods--the "fallen" knights working with the "fallen" sword--Jaime, Brienne, and Oathkeeper are working together towards a big hero moment of some sort.

 

Jon: ice is NOT pure. It's changeable--Ygritte thinks the Wall is made of blood. The Wall looks different in many lights. Dawn transforms it--under the schmutz. Doesn't remove the dirt. And my pet theory is that's why Dawn had to be sent south--Night's King (a name that makes more sense than "Winter," considering what they conquered) got lost in the magic of the sword and the Wall. Had to be defeated and the sword sent south.

 

So, "good guy white sword" vs "bad guy black sword"? I agree--NOT that easy at all. Depends entirely on how they are used.

[LmL]

It's an excellent essay, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it 😊

:cheers:

Sly Wren I agree that Dawn had to be sent south so as not to fall into the wrong hands. Or, you might see it also as "the ice sword remains in the south in case those fire magic assholes come again," while up north, the Starks preserve on oasis of warmth, to fight cold. They keep black steel sword hanging around - and I actually think there's a decent chance that Ned's sword was actually Azor Ahai's original back steel Lightbringer. Cat's knowledge of Ice coming from Valyria 400 years ago is the only evidence we have that it is a newer sword, but the way it acts when split indicates some potentially unique qualities of this sword, even compared to other V steel. Tyrion sees Oathkeeper and says "there is no sword like it in all the world " or something like that. Tywin says "well there is one other like it" and then the narrator calls Widows Wail and OK "close cousins" if not twins, because the size is different. But even so, the "no sword like it" seems like a clue it's not a normal v steel.

So, if Neds Ice is Lightbringer, then it's the same story as Dawn - after the war for dawn, the fire sword was kept up north so that it would remain safely out of the hands of those fire magic assholes, and to be kept ready in case the ice assholes come again. Fire sword, up north, icy sword, down south. I saw this pattern a long time ago, and I haven't found anything to contradict it, excepting Cat's notion that Ice is only 400 years old.

The way Ned always cleanses the black blade in the cold black pond... is that more significant than we realize? Is this somehow keeping that thing magically pacified, tempering it's dark glow with cold water... keeping a pact with the Old Gods, something like that.

Now, what if there is some truth to the Winterfell dragon stuff? Eggs, hibernating dragon, either one. Have you noticed that alone among Westerosi castles, only Dragonstone and Winterfell have gargoyles? Gargoyles are protective spirits, used for warding purposes. Actually only the First Keep has gargoyles. That's where Bran fell from. What is in the First Keep that needs be warded? When WF was sacked, the 8,000 first keep was destroyed. WF has been sacked and burned at least three times in the past by Boltons alone. The First Keep never collapsed. But for some reason Ramsay is there for ONE NIGHT and the entire side of the First Keep collapses? While the children in the crypts below the FK hear enough noise to wake a dragon? There was one crashing sound louder than all the others. A hibernating dragon, waking up out of the First keep? That's a whole nother exploration, but step back again and consider. Fire sword, fire dragon, kept safely warded and confined in a warm castle far in the north. The idea of keeping a fire dragon locked up is the same as keeping a fire sword locked up, "on ice" if you will. It's an oasis and a reserve of fire magic weapons. Right where you'd need them - up north, ready to fight the Others.

Last thing - the kings in the crypts don't want Jon to be there. Their swords across their laps are ALSO for warding purposes - we are told tha flat out in the book by Ned. And it's Jon they reject. Jon is thinking of his bastard heritage as the reason, but do ghosts care about bastard vs legitimate offspring? I don't see why they would. as that's an entirely human convention. Jon has just as much Stark blood as his half brothers. Ghosts don't care about marriage. But they do care about a DRAGON BLOOD person trying to lay claim to whatever secret magics are being kept there. That makes sense if the weapons are fire weapons, and the goal is not to allow a dragon person to get their hands on them - last time this happened , we had a Long Night. But Jon has to go down further, because he is also half Stark and his destiny is to fulfill some ancient role. I think he's a dragon blood person, Azor Ahai reborn, but in an icy sheath. Tempered by the wolf blood. This may enable him to my claim to Azor Ahai's legacy without becoming an abusive dragonlord.

If a dragon did wake up at WF, that is Jon's dragon, just as he wants his fathers sword. Now maybe that's original Ice - Dawn - but it could also be AA's Lightbringer, which is now Oathkeeper. Jon may be destined to wield all of that.

[Lady Barbrey]

Yes--the problem=darkness. Old Nan's tales about the Long Night and the Last Hero are about darkness and cold. But the other myths we hear about the heroes are about driving out the darkness. The stories mix together, but the Others don't come when it's just cold, but when it's dark. Then they bring extra cold.
 
I'm with the "the Children are using blood magic" camp on the Long Night--at least for now. Blood magic in Martinlandia is BAD!!! Powerful, but never ends well. Too many traces of blood sacrifice in the North. And the Children, or at least factions of them, could very well have seen no other way out--like Dany and her blood magic.
 
But I fully admit we don't have enough information to throw down on that yet. Only traces.
 
Still, I think that's one reason why Jon-the-warg-with-two-selves is in a better position to avoid blood magic. Can't avoid cost, but can avoid abomination. And Jon has rejected the abomination of Craster and Mel. Even appalled by Val's reaction to Shireen, despite his attraction to Val. Jon's humanity wins out--if not his communication skills. Am thinking it's part of the counter to unnatural blood magic. How? Not sure.

First, I am with you on not isolating symbols out of context with what is happening in the scene and the inner workings of the characters. An exception to this is the World book, where we don't have those. And I think you're right about him avoiding 'unnatural' blood magic.

This all brings up an interesting point to me now that I'm better understanding LmL's theory. I don't think it's blood sacrifice per se that was a problem to the Old Gods. It seems more to be 'shadowed' blood sacrifice. We already have a dichotomy with day/night. I don't think enough emphasis has been put on the flip side of fire - the shadows. Which align with night. And death. Light drinkers. Valyrian swords are created with blood magic and I'm beginning to think that always involves shadow binding. Eldric Shadowchaser is the name of one of the heroes. Maybe he's the only one that got it right. It's not the night or day or even fire that needs fighting. It's the unnatural shadows from the dark stone that have made a false and 'blasphemous' dichotomy of day/night with fire/shadows instead?

I really want to thank you and LML and Voice and everyone else for your patience with newer members by the way. I'm not that new but I only dip in for short bursts and then miss six months or more of great theorizing. I've felt very welcome on this thread and have learned more in it than in twenty put together. Thanks guys :)

[Sly Wren]

:cheers:

Sly Wren I agree that Dawn had to be sent south so as not to fall into the wrong hands. Or, you might see it also as "the ice sword remains in the south in case those fire magic assholes come again," while up north, the Starks preserve on oasis of warmth, to fight cold. They keep black steel sword hanging around - and I actually think there's a decent chance that Ned's sword was actually Azor Ahai's original back steel Lightbringer. Cat's knowledge of Ice coming from Valyria 400 years ago is the only evidence we have that it is a newer sword, but the way it acts when split indicates some potentially unique qualities of this sword, even compared to other V steel. Tyrion sees Oathkeeper and says "there is no sword like it in all the world " or something like that. Tywin says "well there is one other like it" and then the narrator calls Widows Wail and OK "close cousins" if not twins, because the size is different. But even so, the "no sword like it" seems like a clue it's not a normal v steel.

So, if Neds Ice is Lightbringer, then it's the same story as Dawn - after the war for dawn, the fire sword was kept up north so that it would remain safely out of the hands of those fire magic assholes, and to be kept ready in case the ice assholes come again. Fire sword, up north, icy sword, down south. I saw this pattern a long time ago, and I haven't found anything to contradict it, excepting Cat's notion that Ice is only 400 years old.

The way Ned always cleanses the black blade in the cold black pond... is that more significant than we realize? Is this somehow keeping that thing magically pacified, tempering it's dark glow with cold water... keeping a pact with the Old Gods, something like that.

I like it! I'm not sold on Ice being AA's originally, but I really like the idea. And I am completely sold on the story being closely tied to the two greatswords, with one broken in two. Would not be surprised if, at the end of it all, the swords are swapped back. Ice is reforged and given back to the Starks. And Jaime, who always wanted to be Arthur Dayne, takes Dawn back to Starfall. But that's just a pet theory on my part. 

 

Now, what if there is some truth to the Winterfell dragon stuff? Eggs, hibernating dragon, either one. Have you noticed that alone among Westerosi castles, only Dragonstone and Winterfell have gargoyles? Gargoyles are protective spirits, used for warding purposes. Actually only the First Keep has gargoyles. That's where Bran fell from. What is in the First Keep that needs be warded? 

Can't go with you on the dragon. Martin wasn't going to include dragons in the novels originally. Really think it's what makes Dany unique--willing and able to raise dragons. Which shake the world. Like the Starks with their direwolves. Dany's willing to use blood sacrifice to get dragons--which is understandable given her position. But Jon, the white wolf, will NOT engage in blood rituals. It doesn't make them opposites, but the difference between the dragons and the wolves--can't see the need for a Winterfell dragon.

 

Last thing - the kings in the crypts don't want Jon to be there. Their swords across their laps are ALSO for warding purposes - we are told tha flat out in the book by Ned. And it's Jon they reject. Jon is thinking of his bastard heritage as the reason, but do ghosts care about bastard vs legitimate offspring?

But in Jon's nightmare, he expressly states that he's NOT afraid of the Kings of Winter. So, they aren't rejecting Jon. Really think he's "afraid of what's waiting" for him because the crypts, in his dream, are actually the realm of the dead. Ghost-Jon growls at the smell of death in the vision with Tree-Bran. And it's his brother's fierce by friendly tree-face that keeps Ghost-Jon from fleeing. Family makes it easier to enter/deal with the realm of the dead.

 

So, I don't think the kings are rejecting Jon. Just think he's afraid of the death they symbolize. Which is completely understandable.

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

 

 

"Hmmm, your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your news letter.." 

[Sly Wren]

First, I am with you on not isolating symbols out of context with what is happening in the scene and the inner workings of the characters. An exception to this is the World book, where we don't have those. And I think you're right about him avoiding 'unnatural' blood magic.

This all brings up an interesting point to me now that I'm better understanding LmL's theory. I don't think it's blood sacrifice per se that was a problem to the Old Gods. It seems more to be 'shadowed' blood sacrifice. We already have a dichotomy with day/night. I don't think enough emphasis has been put on the flip side of fire - the shadows. Which align with night. And death. Light drinkers. Valyrian swords are created with blood magic and I'm beginning to think that always involves shadow binding. Eldric Shadowchaser is the name of one of the heroes. Maybe he's the only one that got it right. It's not the night or day or even fire that needs fighting. It's the unnatural shadows from the dark stone that have made a false and 'blasphemous' dichotomy of day/night with fire/shadows instead?

Okay--I'm loving this. The Others' being "white shadows." Would explain why they can only be in twilight and night--can't stand in the light of the sun because they are shadows of moonlight. Creating "another form of life" through binding and animating a shadow. Shadow given substance--it would be another form of life. 

 

Would also tie in to the fact that Brienne feels cold from the shadow that kills Renly--not fire, cold. Like death. 

 

One issue--Mel's shadows seem to dissipate after they finish their mission. The Others endure. And have bones. More like the dragons--fire made flesh.

 

But the idea that the problem isn't' just the sacrifice both the creation of magical lives--like bound shadows--I like this.

 

I really want to thank you and LML and Voice and everyone else for your patience with newer members by the way. I'm not that new but I only dip in for short bursts and then miss six months or more of great theorizing. I've felt very welcome on this thread and have learned more in it than in twenty put together. Thanks guys :)

:) My pleasure! This is my first thread and I've loved your comments--so, again, my pleasure! :cheers: