From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[wolfmaid7]

 
I just wanted to say I don't think you should put too much stock into this idea of the sword fighting the colors, defilement, etc. I'm not saying that is totally off, but you're missing other aspects here because you are so busy thinking about it in one way. It's a transformation. The sword has two materials, and that is why one layer doesn't take the red door. It isn't steel. The other half is DARKENING the red to the color of blood - "blood and fire," not crimson and fire - because I believe it is made from the greasy black moon meteors, which drank the sun's fire. Asshai's black stone drinks the light, just like Ned's sword. The color changes here are not sentimental, they are indicative of the ingredients. The steel wants to be DARK, that is it's proclivity. It wants to drink light, darken everything. Unleash waves of night and blood. That's Lightbringer.
 
I'm working on an essay explaining exactly what the waves of night and blood mean, actually, but the very short version is that it refers to the concept of black blood, which is produced by fire transformation (such as in Mel's vision sequence); it refers to an actual flood which was triggered by the Lightbringer meteors landing in the ocean; and it refers to an invasion of Ironborn. At Winterfell in ACOK, the Ironborn's invasion was described as a dark tide in Jojen's vision, and in the same scene we see that drowning in water is symbolically the same as drowning on blood (Mikken). Of course there's a ton of evidence to support this, as is my usual style. That essay is coming soon.

Ned's "Black Ice" has been transformed, perhaps in an unholy way - but again, that's what Lightbringer is all about. It's a wicked weapon, but used for a noble purpose somehow, at least one important time. Although I don't think this has anything to do with the color change, Black Ice was consecrated with ned's own blood. George takes the time to show us during the battle of the Blackwater that Ilyn Paine doesn't clean the blood off of his sword, so if you want to think about Black Ice having been soaked in Ned's blood, sure, that might be symbolically significant. What I think is even more important about Oathkeeper is that it is being used to offer blood sacrifice to weirwoods. Brienne kills under the weirwood at the Whispers, burying the bodies beneath the tree even. Now she is in Stoneheart's lair with Jaime, among the weirwood roots. And you better believe she's going to be doing some killing down there, and again the weirwoods will drink the blood. Ned always washed the blood off of Black Ice in the cold black pond beneath the Winterfell heart tree. That's the same idea - offering blood sacrifice to heart trees with sword which either symbolized Lightbringer or IS ACTUALLY Lightbringer. I have found a lot of evidence to suggest this, but it's also possible that all V steel is made with the black moon meteors, and therefore all V steel can become a Lightbringer. But, despite what Cat thinks about Black Ice coming from Valyria 400 years ago, I do think it's possible Ned's sword was actually Lightbringer, in disguise. 

If you think about it, Black Ice is the first and most significant sword in the series. It's the firstone we see, and the scene in the Godswood with Ned and Cat makes A LOT OF FUSS about the sword and its dark glow. Anyway. I am just wanting to encourage you to make your thinking a bit more flexible about Oathkeeper. The defilement is only one aspect, and perhaps not the most important. Every word in those 5 paragraphs describing the two swords is carefully chosen and worthy of reflection. Why all the watery language? Shimmering, ripples, waves, a steely shore... it's awfully wet for a dragonsteel sword, don't you think?

Sooooooo Sly Wren is off because "you" figured it out? Sigh and have "the answer".Let's see where Sly Wren is going with it shall we.

[wolfmaid7]

I'll preface this with Arthur isn't my first choice for Jon's dad.But I know the major issue that comes up with any prospect other than Rhaegar is why keep the secret.

What if -and this is just a hypothetical-its something as simple as Ned claimed him not only in name but in his heart.He grew to love Jon and for all intense and purposes no matter what the blood was in Ned's heart Jon became his.

He probably could tell Jon, but as a parent who invested time and emotions I would be insecure if Jon found out.What would he do, how would he view me, would he forsake me for another.

I guess what im saying is we shouldn't dismiss the human aspect in this and that Ned might have just become possessive.

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

 

Ah but is he distributing swords? I guess, in his own "little" way...

 

“I am sorry.” Varys wrung his hands. “You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it.” The eunuch pursed his lips and gave a little whistle. Ser Kevan was cold as ice, and every labored breath sent a fresh stab of pain through him. He glimpsed movement, heard the soft scuffling sound of slippered feet on stone. A child emerged from a pool of darkness, a pale boy in a ragged robe, no more than nine or ten. Another rose up behind the Grand Maester’s chair. The girl who had opened the door for him was there as well. They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together.

 

And in their hands, the daggers.  (ADWD, Epilogue)

 

Look, you can't expect to wield Supreme Executive power over the Seven Kingdoms just because some watery fart gave a sword to ya. I mean, I if went 'round, saying I was King of Westeros, just because some bald eunuch had handed a scimitar to me, they'd put me away!

[LmL]

There's a mute 9 year old girl knocking at your door right now.
 

 
Look, you can't expect to wield Supreme Executive power over the Seven Kingdoms just because some watery fart gave a sword to ya. I mean, I if went 'round, saying I was King of Westeros, just because some bald eunuch had handed a scimitar to me, they'd put me away!

[Visitant]

I don't have anything particularly useful to add. I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading the OP and I think you make a good argument. :)

[Sly Wren]

 

I just wanted to say I don't think you should put too much stock into this idea of the sword fighting the colors, defilement, etc. I'm not saying that is totally off, but you're missing other aspects here because you are so busy thinking about it in one way. It's a transformation. The sword has two materials, and that is why one layer doesn't take the red door. It isn't steel. The other half is DARKENING the red to the color of blood - "blood and fire," not crimson and fire - because I believe it is made from the greasy black moon meteors, which drank the sun's fire. Asshai's black stone drinks the light, just like Ned's sword. The color changes here are not sentimental, they are indicative of the ingredients. The steel wants to be DARK, that is it's proclivity. It wants to drink light, darken everything. Unleash waves of night and blood. That's Lightbringer.

You're right--I read the quote DarkSister1001 too fast.

 

I do think the colors are fighting--that this is a sword that it not happy (makes it sound like it needs therapy).

 

But I skipped right over the phrasing of the blade drinking the color in. And that the color is blood. Throw in the fact that this is now a blade on which "hundreds" of extra spells have been performed--it definitely has Lightbringer quality.

 

Ned's "Black Ice" has been transformed, perhaps in an unholy way - but again, that's what Lightbringer is all about. It's a wicked weapon, but used for a noble purpose somehow, at least one important time. Although I don't think this has anything to do with the color change, Black Ice was consecrated with ned's own blood. George takes the time to show us during the battle of the Blackwater that Ilyn Paine doesn't clean the blood off of his sword, so if you want to think about Black Ice having been soaked in Ned's blood, sure, that might be symbolically significant. What I think is even more important about Oathkeeper is that it is being used to offer blood sacrifice to weirwoods. Brienne kills under the weirwood at the Whispers, burying the bodies beneath the tree even. Now she is in Stoneheart's lair with Jaime, among the weirwood roots. And you better believe she's going to be doing some killing down there, and again the weirwoods will drink the blood. Ned always washed the blood off of Black Ice in the cold black pond beneath the Winterfell heart tree. That's the same idea - offering blood sacrifice to heart trees with sword which either symbolized Lightbringer or IS ACTUALLY Lightbringer. I have found a lot of evidence to suggest this, but it's also possible that all V steel is made with the black moon meteors, and therefore all V steel can become a Lightbringer. But, despite what Cat thinks about Black Ice coming from Valyria 400 years ago, I do think it's possible Ned's sword was actually Lightbringer, in disguise. 

1. Agree that Ice has been twisted--like Lightbringer. Seems like AA thought what he did with Lightbringer was the only way. And that Ned's blood is part of it. Not sure I'd say "consecrated"--am wondering if the fact that when the sword drinks in the light and shows the red as blood if that isn't a symbol of "Ned's blood is still on this blade." But that's probably pushing it.

 

2. Absolutely agree about the way Brienne is using it and the sacrifices. As I said upthread, Brienne seems like a chance for redemption for the blade. She and Jaime are a split sword, working with a split sword that they shouldn't have to try to do something right with it. Her sacrifices to the trees are part of that "redemption."

 

3. But I'm not sold on it's being Lightbringer originally. Seems more like it's becoming Lightbringer. As I mentioned upthread, seems like this blade has a story arc, like you said. It's the Stark symbol. Jon longs for it. Then it's turned on its owner, split and twisted, and now has a chance at redemption.

 

It's got an arc--like Jaime and Brienne. Like the original Lightbringer. It feels alive. It has will. A good sword, split and twisted, with a chance for redemption. Like Jaime. Like the stories Old Nan tells are being replayed in the North--this is an old story replaying. Proving true. That a sword can have a harrowing journey and even redemption through sacrifice. Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

I'll preface this with Arthur isn't my first choice for Jon's dad.But I know the major issue that comes up with any prospect other than Rhaegar is why keep the secret.

What if -and this is just a hypothetical-its something as simple as Ned claimed him not only in name but in his heart.He grew to love Jon and for all intense and purposes no matter what the blood was in Ned's heart Jon became his.

He probably could tell Jon, but as a parent who invested time and emotions I would be insecure if Jon found out.What would he do, how would he view me, would he forsake me for another.

I guess what im saying is we shouldn't dismiss the human aspect in this and that Ned might have just become possessive.

1. Re: "Daddy:" I really think Jon's dark night into dawn is straight-up narrative into epiphany. That it means Jon is Sword of the Morning. The mystical part seems clear.

 

But I'm not ready to throw down on who Jon's father is. Lady Dyanna called me on this. And she's right: this would be a lot cleaner with Arthur as father. But there's too much we don't know: about how Dawn is bestowed; about how the Daynes are in all of this; about how much Dayne blood Jon might need. 

 

All of that I can't pin down. But the epiphany--that's just right in the narrative.

 

2. I absolutely agree that Ned made Jon his son. The books make that very clear.

 

Could that have made it harder for Ned to tell the truth? To disappoint Jon by saying, "I lied to you?" I completely agree with that. 

 

And the human element--no way to dismiss that. Jon's whole longing for Ice is based on his human need for Ned. And Ned could never hide his love for Jon. My OP is based on Jon's searching to understand where he fits among the people he loves but thinks he's lost. That drives the epiphany.

 

But I also think those promises have something to do with Jon because of the context in which Ned remembers them.

 

4. Bottom line: I can't pin down who Jon's parents are with the texts as is. But Martin's shown us the basic outline of where Jon is going, regardless of who his blood father is.

 

Sooooooo Sly Wren is off because "you" figured it out? Sigh and have "the answer".Let's see where Sly Wren is going with it shall we.

:)

[Sly Wren]

I don't have anything particularly useful to add. I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading the OP and I think you make a good argument. :)

:cheers: Thanks! But please, feel free to dive in any way you like.

 

Look, you can't expect to wield Supreme Executive power over the Seven Kingdoms just because some watery fart gave a sword to ya. I mean, I if went 'round, saying I was King of Westeros, just because some bald eunuch had handed a scimitar to me, they'd put me away!

 

 

 

There's a mute 9 year old girl knocking at your door right now.

:lmao: Oh thank you. It's been a long day. 

[LmL]

You're right--I read the quote DarkSister1001 too fast.
 
I do think the colors are fighting--that this is a sword that it not happy (makes it sound like it needs therapy).
 
But I skipped right over the phrasing of the blade drinking the color in. And that the color is blood. Throw in the fact that this is now a blade on which "hundreds" of extra spells have been performed--it definitely has Lightbringer quality.
 
A while upthread, some conversation about Oathkeeper. 
 

1. Agree that Ice has been twisted--like Lightbringer. Seems like AA thought what he did with Lightbringer was the only way. And that Ned's blood is part of it. Not sure I'd say "consecrated"--am wondering if the fact that when the sword drinks in the light and shows the red as blood if that isn't a symbol of "Ned's blood is still on this blade." But that's probably pushing it.
 
2. Absolutely agree about the way Brienne is using it and the sacrifices. As I said upthread, Brienne seems like a chance for redemption for the blade. She and Jaime are a split sword, working with a split sword that they shouldn't have to try to do something right with it. Her sacrifices to the trees are part of that "redemption."
 
3. But I'm not sold on it's being Lightbringer originally. Seems more like it's becoming Lightbringer. As I mentioned upthread, seems like this blade has a story arc, like you said. It's the Stark symbol. Jon longs for it. Then it's turned on its owner, split and twisted, and now has a chance at redemption.
 
It's got an arc--like Jaime and Brienne. Like the original Lightbringer. It feels alive. It has will. A good sword, split and twisted, with a chance for redemption. Like Jaime. Like the stories Old Nan tells are being replayed in the North--this is an old story replaying. Proving true. That a sword can have a harrowing journey and even redemption through sacrifice. Maybe.

Cool, enjoyed your thoughts here. Like I said, even I am not sold that Ice is Lightbringer in disguise, I just think there's some symbolism pointing that way - but again, I'm coming from the angle of swords containing black, sun-drinking stone - and the symbols which point at Ned's sword could also be interpreted as referring to all Valyrian swords being made with meteor stone. Anyway, it's neither here nor there, as the sword is obviously doing significant things now, regardless of what is was in the past.

I like you angle on the sword having its own arc, that's a cool way to think about it. It's the same (according my theory) with the Lightbringer comet - is has phases it went through, transformations, etc. It split in half at one point, it changed color from normal blue and white to red at some point, etc.

Hey, something else occurred to me that we haven't discussed so far. What do you make of Jaime's dream where he and Brienne wield swords of silver and blue fire? That's more or less how I would picture Dawn taking flame. As I mentioned, normal comets have two tails - one light blue, one which is white to gray to silver depending on the light. Of course the comet we see in the story is red, which indicates magic and transformation (because real comets are not red, and everyone associates the comet with magic, etc). I think George is using these two comets as models for the swords - a black sword with red fire, and a pale sword with pale blue and silver flame. We've been discussing the two red sword cousins, so it's interesting to see the pale fire swords twins. And how does the weirwood stump factor in? Do the trees have a memory of silver and blue fire swords? Where did that image even come from? Has Jaime seen a sword light up with pale fire?

He did fight with Dayne, and apparently it was so magnificent that all he could say was "and Dayne, with Dawn in his hand..." and then he couldn't even finish the sentence. Probably too far fetched to think maybe it lit up a bit in battle, but then again we have never seen it in action. A longshot, for sure... I just wonder where that image came from.

[wolfmaid7]

1. Re: "Daddy:" I really think Jon's dark night into dawn is straight-up narrative into epiphany. That it means Jon is Sword of the Morning. The mystical part seems clear.

 

But I'm not ready to throw down on who Jon's father is. Lady Dyanna called me on this. And she's right: this would be a lot cleaner with Arthur as father. But there's too much we don't know: about how Dawn is bestowed; about how the Daynes are in all of this; about how much Dayne blood Jon might need. 

 

All of that I can't pin down. But the epiphany--that's just right in the narrative.

 

2. I absolutely agree that Ned made Jon his son. The books make that very clear.

 

Could that have made it harder for Ned to tell the truth? To disappoint Jon by saying, "I lied to you?" I completely agree with that. 

 

And the human element--no way to dismiss that. Jon's whole longing for Ice is based on his human need for Ned. And Ned could never hide his love for Jon. My OP is based on Jon's searching to understand where he fits among the people he loves but thinks he's lost. That drives the epiphany.

 

But I also think those promises have something to do with Jon because of the context in which Ned remembers them.

 

4. Bottom line: I can't pin down who Jon's parents are with the texts as is. But Martin's shown us the basic outline of where Jon is going, regardless of who his blood father is.

 

:)

What i like about this is the angles and i have to say in conjuntion with Voice,Superunknown and your essay Arthur is out of left field as a prospect there's some very sweet thinking there.The human element IMO is always at the heart of this story and that GRRM has written characters and situations as realistic for a fantasy adds a new dimension to it.It isn't a fairy tale and as he himself keeps reiterating through various characters the song of life isn't those grandiose nonsense told by singers to make life seem so colorful.

 

Ned's feelings on this absolutely has to be taken into consideration.He's raised Jon for 15yrs,called him son and with that comes an emotionaly conncetion and not just one of duty placed upon you.I agree there were promises extracted from Ned concerning and atleast one could have had to do with Jon.A simple " raise my son as your own" carries with it the need to lie to everyone for sure.

 

By the way Sly Wren,nice OP. :cheers:

[Lady Dyanna]

During an essay on the Jogos Nhai and the moonsingers, I devolved into a discussion about magic swords, because that's much more interesting than horse lords from the remote parts of Essos ;) Using the temple of the moonsingers as a symbolic rosetta stone for the milkglass, I outlined my arguments that Dawn is the original Ice. I'm going to paste it in below, but I'll put it in spoiler tags as it's longer than a normal comment. Kingmonkey alluded to all the things which contain milkglass; here I've pulled the quotes and done some analysis (although I missed Pycelle's jars when I wrote this).
[spoiler]During the course of their five thousand years of existence, the Valyrians enslaved peoples from lands far and wide, including some Jogos Nhai.  The city of Bravos was founded by a group of slaves who overthrew their Valyrian masters while at sea and took refuge at the hidden lagoon which would eventually become their city.  This lagoon was prophesied and located by a group of moonsingers who were among the escaped slaves.  Arya first hears of this story as she sails into Bravos for the first time.  We also get a nice description of the Temple of the Moonsingers:

 
The Moonsingers led us to this place of refuge, where the dragons of Valyria could not find us, Denyo said. Theirs is the greatest temple.
[]
That is the Temple of the Moonsingers. It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk-glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel.  (AFFC, Arya)

 
It certainly sounds like a splendid structure, and its densely packed with moon imagery - icy moon imagery at that.  Actually, I cant resist unpacking this a bit.  To start, we see the "colors of winter," silver / grey and white - Stark colors, of course.   Arya should feel right at home here.  The marble is described as "snow-white," adding to the imagery.
 
We get the only appearance of actual milk-glass, which is significant because of three things which are described as appearing like milk-glass:  the sword Dawn, and the bones of the Others, and the stalks of ghost grass that grow near Asshai.  
 
 
And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.  (AGOT, Eddard)
 
Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too.  (ASOS, Sam)
 
"Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.  (AGOT, Daenerys)
 
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
[]

The pale sword came shivering through the air.  (AGOT, Prologue)
 


The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white.
[]

The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Others grip.  (ASOS, Sam)


 
My working theory about Dawn the sword is that is was the original Ice of House Stark, and infused with some level of icy Others magic.  Im developing a whole theory about his, of course, which I wont get into here.  I do think it was made from the heart of a falling star, but it also seem to have some Other-ness to it.  Its always described with the term milkglass, which is why I think its worth the time to consider these milkglass quotes.  The ghost grass and the Otherss swords glow with "ghost light, while Dawn glows with a pale light.  Dawn is alive with light, the Others sword is alive with moonlight.  The Otherss swords are called a pale sword twice; of course the tower at Starfall is called the "Palestone Sword.   The ghost grass which is taller than a man on horseback and murders everything else in an attempt to cover the world and extinguish all life sounds a lot like an army of Others during the Long Night riding down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything we would call life. ('93 GRRM letter to the editor)  Naturally this grass is, like Dawn, as pale as milkglass.  
 
Why the ominous connotations for the sword Dawn?  Because (hypothesis) it was originally the sword of the King of Winter, the first Stark.  We are supposed to believe that Bran the Builder, founder of House Stark, built the Wall (or at least the first part of it).  Thats a pretty strong sign of the ancient Starks having some real ability with ice magic.  If anyone could infuse a sword that mortals can hold with Others' ice magic, this might be the guy. 
 
The Temple of the Moonsingers embodies all of these milkglass-related concepts quite nicely.  Theyve certainly got their symbolic house in order over there.  The last detail of the temple worthy of note is the two marble moon-maidens holding the crescent moon lintel over their heads.  It strongly reminds me of this passage:
 

The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust- dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead, with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them.
(AFFC, Arianne)

 
Arianne and company are setting out crown the maiden, Myrcella, which may actually be the same as killing her, as it turns out.  This is the subject of much rumination, with quotes like this: 
 
 

You do know that when my father returns to the Water Gardens he plans to take Myrcella with him? 
 
To keep her safe from those who would do her harm. 
 
No. To keep her away from those whod seek to crown her.  (AFFC, The Soiled Knight) 
 
 
Princess. Ser Gerold Dayne stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow.
 
How was your piss? Arianne inquired archly. 
 
The sands were duly grateful. Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want. 

[]
Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked. Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.  (AFFC, Arianne)
 
She could not believe they would inform on her but that left only Darkstar, and if he was the betrayer, why had he turned his sword on poor Myrcella? He wanted to kill her instead of crowning her, he said as much at Shandystone. He said that was how Id get the war I wanted.  (ADWD, Arianne)
 
Moon crescents can be crowns, but they can also be sickles.  Crescent moons are also called sickle moons, and are of course associated with sacrifice.  In Brans last chapter of A Dance with Dragons, the moon is described the same way four times, as a sort of literary device to create a montage-type effect as Bran learns about becoming a greenseer: "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.  This is the chapter in which Bran sees a series of visions through the weirwood tree, with the last being the sacrificial scene in front of the weirwood tree of Winterfell :
 

And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. No, said Bran, no, dont, but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the mans feet drummed against the earth but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.  (ADWD, Bran)
 
Thus we come full circle, from the birthing songs of the moonsingers to the crescent moon and its connotation of sacrifice.  For many of the moon maidens on our story, sacrificial death and birth are two sides of the same coin, tragically.  Nissa Nissa is of course the original moon maiden who died in childbirth, but the moon maiden who really comes to mind here is the woman Bran sees a bit earlier in his series of visions: Lyanna Stark.  From Neds dream while held captive in the dungeons in A Game of Thrones:
 

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champions crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beautys laurel in Lyannas lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. 
 
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. 
 
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.  (AGOT, Eddard)

 
Those winter roses were Lyannas crown, representing her moment of glory as the Queen of Love and Beauty.  Unfortunately theres another side of that coin, represented by the thorns beneath pale blue petals of the winter rose which draw Neds blood.  The deadly nature of this crown is further emphasized by this quote from Neds most famous of fever dreams:
 
As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. Eddard! she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.  (AGOT, Eddard)
 
This passage is loaded with death associations which make plain the cost exacted by the rose crowns thorns.  Its also specifically evocative of the Others: the rose pedals of Lyannas crown are a storm," and the blue of the pedals is the blue of the eyes of death - the star-saphire eyes of the Others.  Once again, we see that you cannot touch on winter imagery without using words which evoke the Others.  I dont think thats a coincidence.  I believe the text is telling us something with this consistent use of specific symbols.  The sword Dawn, the Others, and the Starks; blue roses, lunar crowns and pale ghost light- all of these concepts are intrinsically connected.
 
To bring this back to the Temple of the Moonsingers which Arya sees in Bravos, consider Arya herself, who looks like Lyanna and has the same wolf blood, according to Ned.  When Bran first sees Lyanna in his weirwood vision, he mistakes her for Arya.  The idea of a wintery crown pops again around another girl mistaken for Arya, Alys Karstark. Melisandre sees Alys coming to Castle Black on a dying horse and thinks its Arya.  Jon too makes the connection.
 



Jon turned to Alys Karstark. My lady. Are you ready? 
 
Yes. Oh, yes. 
 
Youre not scared?
 

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. Let him be scared of me. The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. 
 
Winters lady. Jon squeezed her hand.  (ADWD, Jon)
 

Lyannas crown was made of petals blue as frost, while Alys Karstark has a frosty crown.  This scene is extra beautiful when you realize that Jon is not only seeing a vision of his sister here, hes actually seeing a vision of his mother. Winters Lady, with her frosty crown. *sniffle* 
 
Lets hope Alyss future has a happier ending than Lyannas.  I should point out that both are taking a solar king to husband: Rhaegar, of course, with his Apollo imagery; and Styr, the Magnar of Thenn - turned - Lord of Karhold, with his flaming bronze sunburst sigil. [/spoiler]

Thanks! I have read the comment before, but it definitely helps to reread with a new context. Speaking of milkglass, this quote from Sansa's POV in chapter 80 from aSoS is worded slightly different, but seems to fit into the same category.

Sansa walked down the blue silk carpet between rows of fluted pillars slim as lances. The floors and walls of the High Hall were made of milk-white marble veined with blue. Shafts of pale daylight slanted down through narrow arched windows along the eastern wall. Between the windows were torches, mounted in high iron sconces, but none of them was lit. Her footsteps fell softly on the carpet. Outside the wind blew cold and lonely.

[Lady Dyanna]

During an essay on the Jogos Nhai and the moonsingers, I devolved into a discussion about magic swords, because that's much more interesting than horse lords from the remote parts of Essos ;) Using the temple of the moonsingers as a symbolic rosetta stone for the milkglass, I outlined my arguments that Dawn is the original Ice. I'm going to paste it in below, but I'll put it in spoiler tags as it's longer than a normal comment. Kingmonkey alluded to all the things which contain milkglass; here I've pulled the quotes and done some analysis (although I missed Pycelle's jars when I wrote this).
[spoiler]During the course of their five thousand years of existence, the Valyrians enslaved peoples from lands far and wide, including some Jogos Nhai.  The city of Bravos was founded by a group of slaves who overthrew their Valyrian masters while at sea and took refuge at the hidden lagoon which would eventually become their city.  This lagoon was prophesied and located by a group of moonsingers who were among the escaped slaves.  Arya first hears of this story as she sails into Bravos for the first time.  We also get a nice description of the Temple of the Moonsingers:

 
The Moonsingers led us to this place of refuge, where the dragons of Valyria could not find us, Denyo said. Theirs is the greatest temple.
[]
That is the Temple of the Moonsingers. It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk-glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel.  (AFFC, Arya)

 
It certainly sounds like a splendid structure, and its densely packed with moon imagery - icy moon imagery at that.  Actually, I cant resist unpacking this a bit.  To start, we see the "colors of winter," silver / grey and white - Stark colors, of course.   Arya should feel right at home here.  The marble is described as "snow-white," adding to the imagery.
 
We get the only appearance of actual milk-glass, which is significant because of three things which are described as appearing like milk-glass:  the sword Dawn, and the bones of the Others, and the stalks of ghost grass that grow near Asshai.  
 
 
And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.  (AGOT, Eddard)
 
Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too.  (ASOS, Sam)
 
"Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.  (AGOT, Daenerys)
 
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
[]

The pale sword came shivering through the air.  (AGOT, Prologue)
 


The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white.
[]

The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Others grip.  (ASOS, Sam)


 
My working theory about Dawn the sword is that is was the original Ice of House Stark, and infused with some level of icy Others magic.  Im developing a whole theory about his, of course, which I wont get into here.  I do think it was made from the heart of a falling star, but it also seem to have some Other-ness to it.  Its always described with the term milkglass, which is why I think its worth the time to consider these milkglass quotes.  The ghost grass and the Otherss swords glow with "ghost light, while Dawn glows with a pale light.  Dawn is alive with light, the Others sword is alive with moonlight.  The Otherss swords are called a pale sword twice; of course the tower at Starfall is called the "Palestone Sword.   The ghost grass which is taller than a man on horseback and murders everything else in an attempt to cover the world and extinguish all life sounds a lot like an army of Others during the Long Night riding down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything we would call life. ('93 GRRM letter to the editor)  Naturally this grass is, like Dawn, as pale as milkglass.  
 
Why the ominous connotations for the sword Dawn?  Because (hypothesis) it was originally the sword of the King of Winter, the first Stark.  We are supposed to believe that Bran the Builder, founder of House Stark, built the Wall (or at least the first part of it).  Thats a pretty strong sign of the ancient Starks having some real ability with ice magic.  If anyone could infuse a sword that mortals can hold with Others' ice magic, this might be the guy. 
 
The Temple of the Moonsingers embodies all of these milkglass-related concepts quite nicely.  Theyve certainly got their symbolic house in order over there.  The last detail of the temple worthy of note is the two marble moon-maidens holding the crescent moon lintel over their heads.  It strongly reminds me of this passage:
 

The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust- dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead, with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them.
(AFFC, Arianne)

 
Arianne and company are setting out crown the maiden, Myrcella, which may actually be the same as killing her, as it turns out.  This is the subject of much rumination, with quotes like this: 
 
 

You do know that when my father returns to the Water Gardens he plans to take Myrcella with him? 
 
To keep her safe from those who would do her harm. 
 
No. To keep her away from those whod seek to crown her.  (AFFC, The Soiled Knight) 
 
 
Princess. Ser Gerold Dayne stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow.
 
How was your piss? Arianne inquired archly. 
 
The sands were duly grateful. Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want. 

[]
Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked. Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.  (AFFC, Arianne)
 
She could not believe they would inform on her but that left only Darkstar, and if he was the betrayer, why had he turned his sword on poor Myrcella? He wanted to kill her instead of crowning her, he said as much at Shandystone. He said that was how Id get the war I wanted.  (ADWD, Arianne)
 
Moon crescents can be crowns, but they can also be sickles.  Crescent moons are also called sickle moons, and are of course associated with sacrifice.  In Brans last chapter of A Dance with Dragons, the moon is described the same way four times, as a sort of literary device to create a montage-type effect as Bran learns about becoming a greenseer: "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.  This is the chapter in which Bran sees a series of visions through the weirwood tree, with the last being the sacrificial scene in front of the weirwood tree of Winterfell :
 

And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. No, said Bran, no, dont, but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the mans feet drummed against the earth but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.  (ADWD, Bran)
 
Thus we come full circle, from the birthing songs of the moonsingers to the crescent moon and its connotation of sacrifice.  For many of the moon maidens on our story, sacrificial death and birth are two sides of the same coin, tragically.  Nissa Nissa is of course the original moon maiden who died in childbirth, but the moon maiden who really comes to mind here is the woman Bran sees a bit earlier in his series of visions: Lyanna Stark.  From Neds dream while held captive in the dungeons in A Game of Thrones:
 

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champions crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beautys laurel in Lyannas lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. 
 
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. 
 
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.  (AGOT, Eddard)

 
Those winter roses were Lyannas crown, representing her moment of glory as the Queen of Love and Beauty.  Unfortunately theres another side of that coin, represented by the thorns beneath pale blue petals of the winter rose which draw Neds blood.  The deadly nature of this crown is further emphasized by this quote from Neds most famous of fever dreams:
 
As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. Eddard! she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.  (AGOT, Eddard)
 
This passage is loaded with death associations which make plain the cost exacted by the rose crowns thorns.  Its also specifically evocative of the Others: the rose pedals of Lyannas crown are a storm," and the blue of the pedals is the blue of the eyes of death - the star-saphire eyes of the Others.  Once again, we see that you cannot touch on winter imagery without using words which evoke the Others.  I dont think thats a coincidence.  I believe the text is telling us something with this consistent use of specific symbols.  The sword Dawn, the Others, and the Starks; blue roses, lunar crowns and pale ghost light- all of these concepts are intrinsically connected.
 
To bring this back to the Temple of the Moonsingers which Arya sees in Bravos, consider Arya herself, who looks like Lyanna and has the same wolf blood, according to Ned.  When Bran first sees Lyanna in his weirwood vision, he mistakes her for Arya.  The idea of a wintery crown pops again around another girl mistaken for Arya, Alys Karstark. Melisandre sees Alys coming to Castle Black on a dying horse and thinks its Arya.  Jon too makes the connection.
 



Jon turned to Alys Karstark. My lady. Are you ready? 
 
Yes. Oh, yes. 
 
Youre not scared?
 

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. Let him be scared of me. The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. 
 
Winters lady. Jon squeezed her hand.  (ADWD, Jon)
 

Lyannas crown was made of petals blue as frost, while Alys Karstark has a frosty crown.  This scene is extra beautiful when you realize that Jon is not only seeing a vision of his sister here, hes actually seeing a vision of his mother. Winters Lady, with her frosty crown. *sniffle* 
 
Lets hope Alyss future has a happier ending than Lyannas.  I should point out that both are taking a solar king to husband: Rhaegar, of course, with his Apollo imagery; and Styr, the Magnar of Thenn - turned - Lord of Karhold, with his flaming bronze sunburst sigil. [/spoiler]

Thanks! I have read the comment before, but it definitely helps to reread with a new context. Speaking of milkglass, this quote from Sansa's POV in chapter 80 from aSoS is worded slightly different, but seems to fit into the same category.

Sansa walked down the blue silk carpet between rows of fluted pillars slim as lances. The floors and walls of the High Hall were made of milk-white marble veined with blue. Shafts of pale daylight slanted down through narrow arched windows along the eastern wall. Between the windows were torches, mounted in high iron sconces, but none of them was lit. Her footsteps fell softly on the carpet. Outside the wind blew cold and lonely.

[Lady Dyanna]

I'll preface this with Arthur isn't my first choice for Jon's dad.But I know the major issue that comes up with any prospect other than Rhaegar is why keep the secret.
What if -and this is just a hypothetical-its something as simple as Ned claimed him not only in name but in his heart.He grew to love Jon and for all intense and purposes no matter what the blood was in Ned's heart Jon became his.
He probably could tell Jon, but as a parent who invested time and emotions I would be insecure if Jon found out.What would he do, how would he view me, would he forsake me for another.
I guess what im saying is we shouldn't dismiss the human aspect in this and that Ned might have just become possessive.

I would think that no matter who the father was, with the exception of Robert, that it might need to remain hidden. No matter who would have fathered a child on Lyanna, I would think that he would swear a bloody vengeance against them and/or their family. Following RR, Robert is now the king and able to visit his wrought upon whomever he so chose. This would make maintaining the secrecy of Jon's parentage quite important to the house of the true father. Might this be behind the respect that House Dayne shows for Ned?

I do agree that as time went by, Ned may very well have admitted Jon to his heart, beginning to see him truly as his own son. I imagine this would complicate things even further.

[Sly Wren]

Cool, enjoyed your thoughts here. Like I said, even I am not sold that Ice is Lightbringer in disguise, I just think there's some symbolism pointing that way - but again, I'm coming from the angle of swords containing black, sun-drinking stone - and the symbols which point at Ned's sword could also be interpreted as referring to all Valyrian swords being made with meteor stone. Anyway, it's neither here nor there, as the sword is obviously doing significant things now, regardless of what is was in the past.

I like you angle on the sword having its own arc, that's a cool way to think about it. It's the same (according my theory) with the Lightbringer comet - is has phases it went through, transformations, etc. It split in half at one point, it changed color from normal blue and white to red at some point, etc.

1.  :cheers:

 

2. I very much like the idea that the sword's resistance of the colors point to a mix of magical elements in the sword. That this unhappy sword is revealing what it's made of to give us hints. And hope that it means Martin might actually tell us what goes into these swords.

 

3. RE: Ice as Dawn or Lightbringer: Martin has said that Ice is never used in fighting because it is too unwieldy. But Dawn is used in battle (smiling knight, tower of joy). Valyrian steel greatswords are ceremonial. Symbols for power in the family. Stand-ins for actual military strength.

 

So, am thinking that since it seems pretty certain that Daynes and Starks were involved in ending the Long Night, they'd need an actual, workable sword. Not a symbol. For whatever reason (though I REALLY want to know the reason), Dawn went south with the Daynes. Then, ages later, with the advent of Valyrian steel, the Starks made a ceremonial sword--Ice. A stand-in memory for the real sword. Until the Long Night comes again and the Sword of the Morning rises and needs his practical sword. . . Maybe. . . .

 

And now the symbol is developing into a real, live character (Tyrion says the sword seems alive), given to one who follows the old ways and defends the Starks. Not to mention all of the other possibilities it has if it is developing into Lightbringer. The story of Lightbringer is the development of a sword, not just a reclaiming. So, Oathkeeper becoming Lightbringer--seems possible.

 

Hey, something else occurred to me that we haven't discussed so far. What do you make of Jaime's dream where he and Brienne wield swords of silver and blue fire? That's more or less how I would picture Dawn taking flame. As I mentioned, normal comets have two tails - one light blue, one which is white to gray to silver depending on the light. Of course the comet we see in the story is red, which indicates magic and transformation (because real comets are not red, and everyone associates the comet with magic, etc). I think George is using these two comets as models for the swords - a black sword with red fire, and a pale sword with pale blue and silver flame. We've been discussing the two red sword cousins, so it's interesting to see the pale fire swords twins. And how does the weirwood stump factor in? Do the trees have a memory of silver and blue fire swords? Where did that image even come from? Has Jaime seen a sword light up with pale fire?

He did fight with Dayne, and apparently it was so magnificent that all he could say was "and Dayne, with Dawn in his hand..." and then he couldn't even finish the sentence. Probably too far fetched to think maybe it lit up a bit in battle, but then again we have never seen it in action. A longshot, for sure... I just wonder where that image came from.

1. First off--red comets aren't real? What are you talking about?

 

There are red-comet fire grenades: https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/171/18472/6240201_3_l.jpg

Clearly, Quentyn failed to properly read the signs: "bring a fire grenade!"

 

And red comet fish: http://www.pondsandaquaria.ca/img/nursery/fish/705.jpgThis is an obvious Tully reference.

 

*No "real" red comets . . .humph! . . .mumble. . . grumble. . . *

 

2. Okay, I'm over it. I like the idea of Dawn's catching flame. But actual dawn is red. And when Jon sees the Sword of the Morning, the colors come back into the world--greens and golds, reds and russets. So, seems at least possible that the milkglass sword (like the Others' swords and bones) that gleams in sunlight (NOT like the Others' swords) could burn red like the dawn when wielded by the Sword of the Morning against the Others.

 

3. But I am intrigued by the swords in Jaime's dream, too. The fact that the swords are the only light, that they carry twin swords. Am wondering if they end up with the twin swords together at some point.

 

ETA: I think they do get the swords together, or at least they come to represent Brienne and Jaime: one is taller and thicker. Tyrion says they aren't twins (like Jaime and Cersei) but cousins (fellow knights?).

 

The meaning of the flames--that's been spinning in my brain since I read it and I'm not clicking on anything. I DO think the weirwood aspect is significant--Jaime's being told who will really back him up, vs. his family. That's important info. But I don't think it's Dawn-referencing, for the reasons I gave above. Still, the idea that the living, split Ice could glow blue and grey. . . that seems possible. I need to think on this.

[Sly Wren]

What i like about this is the angles and i have to say in conjuntion with Voice,Superunknown and your essay Arthur is out of left field as a prospect there's some very sweet thinking there.The human element IMO is always at the heart of this story and that GRRM has written characters and situations as realistic for a fantasy adds a new dimension to it.It isn't a fairy tale and as he himself keeps reiterating through various characters the song of life isn't those grandiose nonsense told by singers to make life seem so colorful.

 

Ned's feelings on this absolutely has to be taken into consideration.He's raised Jon for 15yrs,called him son and with that comes an emotionaly conncetion and not just one of duty placed upon you.I agree there were promises extracted from Ned concerning and atleast one could have had to do with Jon.A simple " raise my son as your own" carries with it the need to lie to everyone for sure.

 

By the way Sly Wren,nice OP. :cheers:

:agree:

The human element of the promise could explain why it was kept beyond "practical" reasons. And Ned loves Jon as his son. There is no question.

 

Though I was also joking a while back --I think with falcotron--that Ned was willing to put up with all of the pain of the lie just to avoid the painfully awkward "reveal" conversation--IE: no, I'm not your dad. I only killed your dad. But I love you!

 

But I think your way is right no matter what--Ned saw Jon as his. Knew Jon saw him as his father. I can really see Ned's not wanting to crush that, to risk crushing Jon.

[DarkSister1001]

1. The "Fate of Craster's Sons" one? Thanks for calling it to my attention! I'll read it when I get home.

 

2. Thanks for the quotes! The mismatch of the swords is interesting--why not make them equal? Did they realize how pointless Joff is compared to Jaime's fighting? Ironic in the face of Jaime's losing his sword hand--sacrificing the Starks, stealing and breaking their weapon, and now no one in family can wield it.

 

But the main thing that strikes me is the colors again. Targ-ish, yes. But fighting. The sword is fighting the red, not joining with it. And the dark gray makes the red darker--the gray isn't kicking the red out, but it is absolutely changing the red. Really seems like the Stark-Lannister war encapsulated in two swords.

 Yup, that's it. 

[Sly Wren]

Thanks! I have read the comment before, but it definitely helps to reread with a new context. Speaking of milkglass, this quote from Sansa's POV in chapter 80 from aSoS is worded slightly different, but seems to fit into the same category.

Sansa walked down the blue silk carpet between rows of fluted pillars slim as lances. The floors and walls of the High Hall were made of milk-white marble veined with blue. Shafts of pale daylight slanted down through narrow arched windows along the eastern wall. Between the windows were torches, mounted in high iron sconces, but none of them was lit. Her footsteps fell softly on the carpet. Outside the wind blew cold and lonely.

 

Okay--I just PM'd you about this--but I'm going to bring it up here to get some stuff out of may brain. Apologies.

 

This whole chapter does seem to parallel and contrast Jon's awakening. It just ends very differently from Jon's epiphany--though he moves from that moment to the harrowing climbing of the Wall--and Sansa's almost shown out the Moon Door--so maybe not THAT different.

 

Sansa wakes suddenly, thinking she is home. Then thinks, not home and not Sansa. But the snow is like a revelation. Not yet sure what to make of her dressing in blue and white, if anything. . . 

 

But, like Jon (and her other siblings), she gets away from being NOT Sansa and NOT at home by going down into a beautiful underworld--but this one isn't so much a temptation like Jon's as a return to the underworld of Winterfell and home. Still--it's home. Innocence. The Stark kids are very comfortable in the realm of the dead. Castle--lots to do there. But she's interrupted/helped by Petyr. A bit like Ygritte--Petyr DIDN'T take Sansa home. He's in her way, but she can't see him as a threat yet.

 

Skipping a lot--but to hurry up: Jon gets info after his dark night about his identity (I really, really think I 'm right on that). But Sansa gets her identity affirmed and then messed with. She does assert herself, but then Lyssa makes her doubt herself. Gives Sansa information/revelations that Sansa can't process yet because of the crazy and threats of death. 

 

 

Jon can't process his epiphany, can only feel the emotion, because he doesn't know he's not Ned's sone. Doesn't know to look for a father. And Arya, not Jon, has the Starfall information.

 

One more thing from over on Heresy--in the OP, I talk about Jon's second dream of the underworld is a dream of Bran-a-Tree that Jon has through Ghost. MaesterSam was just theorizing that Sansa's lost time might be her warging dead Lady. We need more info to make that work, but for a strictly theoretical exercise--Jon's going into the underworld as Ghost. He's already got a brother there who's in-between like him--Bran-as-Tree. There are plenty of dead for him to talk to for potential epiphanies.

 

But Ygritte tempts Jon away from his purpose in the cave/underworld/fairyland. Sansa-as-Lady--seems like she'd be encouraging him to rise. To come OUT of the underworld vs. stay in it. . . . Maybe.

[LmL]

Thanks! I have read the comment before, but it definitely helps to reread with a new context. Speaking of milkglass, this quote from Sansa's POV in chapter 80 from aSoS is worded slightly different, but seems to fit into the same category.

 

There is a ton of interesting symbolism in the Eyrie, much of which I have noticed, but I had not connected the marble and the milkglass there... interesting. One of the most interesting things about the Eyrie are the weirwood thrones - are these some faded memory of greenseer thrones? Either in the Eyrie or anywhere else? There are a lot of hidden thrones lurking about in ASOIAF, and I think George has been trying to disguise them. I think in the Dawn Age many of the kings were greenseer kings. The Marsh Kings definitely were; I'm suspicious of Garth Gardener and his living oak throne; there's a driftwood throne given to the Velaryons by the merging King; the Pureborn of Qarth sit in ancient wooden thrones; the Grey King sat in a thrones of Nagga's jaws, but we know that Nagga's ribs are petrified weirwood - so his throne was probably weirwood too. I think there's some lost legacy here. 

I haven't dug into the Eyrie scenes lately, I'll have to re-read and see what I think of the milk white marble. I know there is a lot of icy symbolism, and direct references to the Wall... so milkglass ideas would fit right in. 

[wolfmaid7]

I would think that no matter who the father was, with the exception of Robert, that it might need to remain hidden. No matter who would have fathered a child on Lyanna, I would think that he would swear a bloody vengeance against them and/or their family. Following RR, Robert is now the king and able to visit his wrought upon whomever he so chose. This would make maintaining the secrecy of Jon's parentage quite important to the house of the true father. Might this be behind the respect that House Dayne shows for Ned?

I do agree that as time went by, Ned may very well have admitted Jon to his heart, beginning to see him truly as his own son. I imagine this would complicate things even further.

Even if Robert is the father( and i think he was) that warranted it being kept secret the moment it was certain Lyanna was a dead woman anyways.If i were to "only" consider the individual pieces i could see Arthur as Jon's dad there's some nice bits that could be seen as hints to that.I love Superunknown's essay in this regard as well because of the black and white parallel and the evidence in favor of the KGs humanity.How they can bend the knee to love and desire so to speak.But as i said with that essay it would have been nice to see a connection between Lya and Arthur.Something that indicates intimacy between them.

 

Dido on the Ned angle i believe its unrealistic to think that his own feelings after a while wouldn't come into play.

 

The human element of the promise could explain why it was kept beyond "practical" reasons. And Ned loves Jon as his son. There is no question.

 

Though I was also joking a while back --I think with falcotron--that Ned was willing to put up with all of the pain of the lie just to avoid the painfully awkward "reveal" conversation--IE: no, I'm not your dad. I only killed your dad. But I love you!

 

But I think your way is right no matter what--Ned saw Jon as his. Knew Jon saw him as his father. I can really see Ned's not wanting to crush that, to risk crushing Jon.

True,not only crushing Jon.but also the possibility that he himself would be rejected.

[Lady Dyanna]

Even if Robert is the father( and i think he was) that warranted it being kept secret the moment it was certain Lyanna was a dead woman anyways.If i were to "only" consider the individual pieces i could see Arthur as Jon's dad there's some nice bits that could be seen as hints to that.I love Superunknown's essay in this regard as well because of the black and white parallel and the evidence in favor of the KGs humanity.How they can bend the knee to love and desire so to speak.But as i said with that essay it would have been nice to see a connection between Lya and Arthur.Something that indicates intimacy between them.
 
Dido on the Ned angle i believe its unrealistic to think that his own feelings after a while wouldn't come into play.
 
True,not only crushing Jon.but also the possibility that he himself would be rejected.

:agree: I'm really looking forward to your essay. Certain ways you look at things, Robert does make sense, and he does have the advantage of at least having some contact with Lyanna. ;)