From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[Sly Wren]

Even if Robert is the father( and i think he was) that warranted it being kept secret the moment it was certain Lyanna was a dead woman anyways.If i were to "only" consider the individual pieces i could see Arthur as Jon's dad there's some nice bits that could be seen as hints to that.I love Superunknown's essay in this regard as well because of the black and white parallel and the evidence in favor of the KGs humanity.How they can bend the knee to love and desire so to speak.But as i said with that essay it would have been nice to see a connection between Lya and Arthur.Something that indicates intimacy between them.

 

Dido on the Ned angle i believe its unrealistic to think that his own feelings after a while wouldn't come into play.

I think I've had a brainwave. Either that or a stroke.

 

The emotion re: Arthur and Lyanna--you're right. Why don't the books show something? I think Martin might have--but sideways.

 

Kingmonkey's "Puppets of Ice and Fire" essay and Pretty Pig's analysis of the tent ritual--the parallels between the toj and Mirri's tent are intense.

 

But why? The tent ritual ends up sacrificing an unwilling, innocent child for his father. A blood magic ritual. Which, as Kingmonkey's examples show, come back to bit you. And this ritual bites Dany. Hard. Death pays for life--whether you like it or not.

 

But at the toj, there is not ritual, but there is still a sacrifice. A self-sacrifice of grown men all willing to fight for each other and their cause. Yet there is still such a strong parallel with the blood ritual in the tent. Why? Because these death's paid for a life. They didn't know it. but the sacrifice was still willing.

 

But Jon's already had his life paid for--Lyanna. Again, a willing sacrifice. She may not have known she was going to die, but, given him much Ned loves Jon, seems like Lya did, too. Jon's born with the dead--like the direwolves. Like Ghost. His life is already paid for.

 

So, why the second willing sacrifice at the tower? What does that pay for? Jon's next life. A sacrifice like what Mirri does which results in Dany's dragons. But those sacrifices are about killing others to get a life you want. Jon's had other die so he could live. Twice. A gift, not taken in fire and blood, but given willingly.

 

His life is paid for. He just has to collect. And, like Dany gets her dragons by sacrificing others, Jon's earned Dawn by sacrificing himself--for the Watch. 

 

But his second life has been paid for. Born among the dead. Like Ghost. He can rise.

[Light a wight tonight]

Rise? Sword of the Morning? We must be talking about Dickon Manwoody here.

[Sly Wren]

Rise? Sword of the Morning? We must be talking about Dickon Manwoody here.

Well, Jon is a Warg.

 

So, just how out of it would he have to be to say "Ghost" but mean "Dickon?"

[LmL]

Is "Dickon" anything like "Head On: Apply Directly to the Forehead" ?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Lady Dyanna]

This forum so needs a like button!!! :)

ETA: Slywren: My mind is currently whirling in a million different directions that I somehow need to focus, but, gut instinct is telling me we should be doing a forensic file on this chapter too. I need to reread to see if there's any chance my current suspicion is correct, but something started me wondering if these trips to the "underworld" and the echoes are somehow related. Unfortunately, right now, I've got nothing to support this other than a completely out there instinct. Will let you know if I see anything on reread.

[Sly Wren]

Is "Dickon" anything like "Head On: Apply Directly to the Forehead" ?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Seems like such a product would have MUCH higher sales than "Head On."  :cool4:

 

 Slywren: My mind is currently whirling in a million different directions that I somehow need to focus, but, gut instinct is telling me we should be doing a forensic file on this chapter too. I need to reread to see if there's any chance my current suspicion is correct, but something started me wondering if these trips to the "underworld" and the echoes are somehow related. Unfortunately, right now, I've got nothing to support this other than a completely out there instinct. Will let you know if I see anything on reread.

Forensic file sounds good--are you talking about the chapters in my OP (Storm Jon III and IV) or something else?

[Codename: Nymeria]

Seems like such a product would have MUCH higher sales than "Head On."  :cool4:

 

 

It's not the size of the product, it's how you use it.

[Lady Dyanna]

Seems like such a product would have MUCH higher sales than "Head On."  :cool4:
 
Forensic file sounds good--are you talking about the chapters in my OP (Storm Jon III and IV) or something else?

Yep. Both Jon Chapters. I reread quickly and I'm not sure my idea is panning out, but I still wouldn't mind taking a deeper look. Think I might be trying to look at too many things at once. Should we do one at a time and have these two be next? I'm thinking that we need to pull apart all of these epiphany and echo chapters and eventually compare/contrast them all.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree: I'm really looking forward to your essay. Certain ways you look at things, Robert does make sense, and he does have the advantage of at least having some contact with Lyanna. ;)

 

:thumbsup:

I think I've had a brainwave. Either that or a stroke.

 

The emotion re: Arthur and Lyanna--you're right. Why don't the books show something? I think Martin might have--but sideways.

 

Kingmonkey's "Puppets of Ice and Fire" essay and Pretty Pig's analysis of the tent ritual--the parallels between the toj and Mirri's tent are intense.

 

But why? The tent ritual ends up sacrificing an unwilling, innocent child for his father. A blood magic ritual. Which, as Kingmonkey's examples show, come back to bit you. And this ritual bites Dany. Hard. Death pays for life--whether you like it or not.

 

But at the toj, there is not ritual, but there is still a sacrifice. A self-sacrifice of grown men all willing to fight for each other and their cause. Yet there is still such a strong parallel with the blood ritual in the tent. Why? Because these death's paid for a life. They didn't know it. but the sacrifice was still willing.

 

But Jon's already had his life paid for--Lyanna. Again, a willing sacrifice. She may not have known she was going to die, but, given him much Ned loves Jon, seems like Lya did, too. Jon's born with the dead--like the direwolves. Like Ghost. His life is already paid for.

 

So, why the second willing sacrifice at the tower? What does that pay for? Jon's next life. A sacrifice like what Mirri does which results in Dany's dragons. But those sacrifices are about killing others to get a life you want. Jon's had other die so he could live. Twice. A gift, not taken in fire and blood, but given willingly.

 

His life is paid for. He just has to collect. And, like Dany gets her dragons by sacrificing others, Jon's earned Dawn by sacrificing himself--for the Watch. 

 

But his second life has been paid for. Born among the dead. Like Ghost. He can rise.

I'm more inclined to see Rhaego,the mount and Drogo's collective lives for the Dragon eggs.That's the thing with magical workings they always never work exactly the way you want them to and if they do there's always something extra on the side.

 

The red bolded explain a bit futher he didn't actually sacrifice himself for the Watch,that one was taken from him by treachery.

[Lady Barbrey]

Great OP, Sly Wren. I want to add (hoping it adds) a little more to this theory by talking a moment about Darkstar, the most dangerous man in the kingdom, according to Doran. All the Daynes have Arthuriana symbols attached to them and Darkstar is no exception. He is definitely a Mordred figure. His abode, High Hermitage, is a name from The Green Knight sagas, and as a translation from the French, it also connotes as 'disinherited'. I think we can feel his envy when he speaks of Arthur Dayne, and because of his House's history, I do wonder if it is not the Lordship of Dayne he has been disinherited from but the entitlement to wield 'Dawn'.

While I have very little to go on when it comes to the Daynes, he seems so far the only one of the right age to wield it. Edric is too young to wield a greatsword. My theory before this thread appeared was that his general dissatisfaction with the world is that whoever deems a Dayne 'worthy' did not so deem him while he was expecting to get it. Here I believe is possibly the Sword of the Evening personified to Jon's Sword of the Morning.

When Ned is described taking the sword back to Starfall he takes the sword to Ashara Dayne. Here then is our Nimue or Lady of the Lake figure (in addition to other Arthuriana roles she plays). I think it might be the ladies of the Dayne house who decide worthiness. It makes sense to me that they know of another possible heir that might be deemed more worthy than Darkstar. So the sword has remained at Starfall in the meantime.

Dorne is a long way from the Wall. It would not surprise me if young Edric or sister Allyria showed up with the sword.

My rather romantic take but the allusions are there.

Kudos to you and everyone else on this thread. I read the whole thing! Though not sure I followed all of it.

[Sly Wren]

 

I'm more inclined to see Rhaego,the mount and Drogo's collective lives for the Dragon eggs.That's the thing with magical workings they always never work exactly the way you want them to and if they do there's always something extra on the side.

 

The red bolded explain a bit futher he didn't actually sacrifice himself for the Watch,that one was taken from him by treachery.

Yeah--I'm really working without a net on this idea. Popped into my head and wrote it down fast both here and on Heresy--I should know better than to write something down that fast.

 

I do think Mirri is one of the dragon lives--the dragon coming out of her forehead in the HotU dream. But I fully agree--the "death pays for life" rules in these texts does not seem well defined. The term "sacrifice" often seems loosely based.

 

And yes again--I phrased that terribly. Jon risked angering the Watch--and succeeded in doing so--to try to protect the Watch and the North. Was willing to risk his life to save Arya and the North from the Boltons. The risk--putting himself in potential danger--not so much "sacrifice" as "willing to incur danger." Like Ned's being willing to sacrifice his common sense and own needs to Robert's orders. So, the Watch literally sacrificed Jon.

 

Yep. Both Jon Chapters. I reread quickly and I'm not sure my idea is panning out, but I still wouldn't mind taking a deeper look. Think I might be trying to look at too many things at once. Should we do one at a time and have these two be next? I'm thinking that we need to pull apart all of these epiphany and echo chapters and eventually compare/contrast them all.

:cheers: I'm in--whoever gets time first starts the thread first?

[LmL]

Great OP, Sly Wren. I want to add (hoping it adds) a little more to this theory by talking a moment about Darkstar, the most dangerous man in the kingdom, according to Doran. All the Daynes have Arthuriana symbols attached to them and Darkstar is no exception. He is definitely a Mordred figure. His abode, High Hermitage, is a name from The Green Knight sagas, and as a translation from the French, it also connotes as 'disinherited'. I think we can feel his envy when he speaks of Arthur Dayne, and because of his House's history, I do wonder if it is not the Lordship of Dayne he has been disinherited from but the entitlement to wield 'Dawn'.

While I have very little to go on when it comes to the Daynes, he seems so far the only one of the right age to wield it. Edric is too young to wield a greatsword. My theory before this thread appeared was that his general dissatisfaction with the world is that whoever deems a Dayne 'worthy' did not so deem him while he was expecting to get it. :thumbsup:  Here I believe is possibly the Sword of the Evening personified to Jon's Sword of the Morning. :thumbsup: 

When Ned is described taking the sword back to Starfall he takes the sword to Ashara Dayne. Here then is our Nimue or Lady of the Lake figure (in addition to other Arthuriana roles she plays). I think it might be the ladies of the Dayne house who decide worthiness. It makes sense to me that they know of another possible heir that might be deemed more worthy than Darkstar. So the sword has remained at Starfall in the meantime.

Dorne is a long way from the Wall. It would not surprise me if young Edric or sister Allyria showed up with the sword.

My rather romantic take but the allusions are there.

Kudos to you and everyone else on this thread. I read the whole thing! Though not sure I followed all of it.

 

Darkstar be of the night, fo shizzle! ;)

 

Don't rule out the possibility of sword switchery. The "sword of the evening" person might wield Dawn, and Jon Snow, the true SOTM in the symbolic and Dawn-bringing sense, wields a black sword with red fire (the sword of the evening and nightfall), such as in his Azor Ahai dream (I'm referring to the very dark grey V steel as black steel; in the books this is often done). 

[Sly Wren]

Great OP, Sly Wren. I want to add (hoping it adds) a little more to this theory by talking a moment about Darkstar, the most dangerous man in the kingdom, according to Doran. All the Daynes have Arthuriana symbols attached to them and Darkstar is no exception. He is definitely a Mordred figure. His abode, High Hermitage, is a name from The Green Knight sagas, and as a translation from the French, it also connotes as 'disinherited'. I think we can feel his envy when he speaks of Arthur Dayne, and because of his House's history, I do wonder if it is not the Lordship of Dayne he has been disinherited from but the entitlement to wield 'Dawn'.

Thanks! :cheers:

 

Am very interested in the Arthurian imagery surrounding the Daynes. And agree on Darkstar having the Modred vibe. The idea of his disinheritance intrigues me, since as far as we know, Dawn isn't inherited. We don't know what determines "worth." And apparently neither does Darkstar--or, if he does, he doesn't seem to be telling. 

 

Which makes me very curious as to:

 

A: what makes a worthy Dayne? (I speculate self-sacrifice and duty in my OP--but that is a deduction vs. fact.) 

B: Why do they have this tradition when every other family sword we hear of his inherited father to son? Where did this tradition come from and what will that tell us about Jon?

 

While I have very little to go on when it comes to the Daynes, he seems so far the only one of the right age to wield it. Edric is too young to wield a greatsword. My theory before this thread appeared was that his general dissatisfaction with the world is that whoever deems a Dayne 'worthy' did not so deem him while he was expecting to get it. Here I believe is possibly the Sword of the Evening personified to Jon's Sword of the Morning.

Agree--Edric seems too young. And that however the sword is chosen has passed Darkstar by. I really like the sword of the evening contrast. Are you thinking maybe that's a tie in to the sword of the evening who married Nymeria?

 

When Ned is described taking the sword back to Starfall he takes the sword to Ashara Dayne. Here then is our Nimue or Lady of the Lake figure (in addition to other Arthuriana roles she plays). I think it might be the ladies of the Dayne house who decide worthiness. It makes sense to me that they know of another possible heir that might be deemed more worthy than Darkstar. So the sword has remained at Starfall in the meantime.

Oh, I like this. I like this! The basics I know of the Lady of the Lake stories is that sometimes there's the one--the sword guardian. And sometimes there are more who play various roles (like Nimue/Vivienne tempting Merlin into the cave). 

 

But Starfall not only has the Palestone Sword and all that potential imagery. It's on an island. Isolated and surrounded by water--fits (maybe) a Lady of the Lake. And I am liking the idea that she may be involved in choosing worthiness. That she helped bestow the sword onto Arthur and it still didn't save him in the end, or something like that--could maybe see that helping to up the guilt quotient.

 

But with the Lady of the Lake--I've been wondering if Dawn doesn't "belong" to the Daynes. If they are the guardians--Lady of the Lake. If that's where the tradition of "only a worthy Dayne comes from"--because the sword isn't "theirs." So it can't be inherited, only earned.

 

Maybe even the sword is bestowed on Daynes as Sword of the Morning UNTIL the Long Night comes again and the "true" Sword of the Morning rises. Though this is probably stretching things.

 

Dorne is a long way from the Wall. It would not surprise me if young Edric or sister Allyria showed up with the sword.

My rather romantic take but the allusions are there.

Kudos to you and everyone else on this thread. I read the whole thing! Though not sure I followed all of it.

Maybe--but back to your Lady of the Lake imagery: Excalibur is magically bestowed when needed. Like the Sword of the Morning appears to Jon, I think partly because he needs encouragement.

 

If the metaphor holds--am thinking the sword might present itself. Which would be more "practical" story wise. And which might have been foreshadowed by Jon's "epiphany." Maybe.

 

And I agree--the romantic allusions are absolutely there--and intriguing.

 

Edited for clarity.

[Sly Wren]

 

It's not the size of the product, it's how you use it.

I just realized--this whole part of the thread conversation is at least metaphorically about swords--so we are all completely on topic. 

 

Good! Carry on.

[Faydra]

In my opinion Dawn has no business in Jon's arc (unless Arthur Dayne got drunk and gifted it to baby Jon only to piss off Darkstar). It appears in his POV because the Sword of the Morning is something he looks up to. He won't be the next SotM no more than Bran will be a knight and Sansa the queen of Westeros. 

[LmL]

I just realized--this whole part of the thread conversation is at least metaphorically about swords--so we are all completely on topic. 
 
Good! Carry on.

SWORD ON: APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE WIFE-HEART

r.i.p. Nissa Nissa :(

[LmL]

If Dawn is to leave Starfall and enter the Frey (pun intended), my vote is Darkstar steeling it.

Pun also intended.

[Shmi44]

Jon is dead baby Jon is dead.

Accept it already.

[Lady Barbrey]

If Dawn is to leave Starfall and enter the Frey (pun intended), my vote is Darkstar steeling it.
Pun also intended.

Ooh, I like this!

[Lady Barbrey]

Thanks! :cheers:
 
Am very interested in the Arthurian imagery surrounding the Daynes. And agree on Darkstar having the Modred vibe. The idea of his disinheritance intrigues me, since as far as we know, Dawn isn't inherited. We don't know what determines "worth." And apparently neither does Darkstar--or, if he does, he doesn't seem to be telling. 
 
Which makes me very curious as to:
 
A: what makes a worthy Dayne? (I speculate self-sacrifice and duty in my OP--but that is a deduction vs. fact.) 
B: Why do they have this tradition when every other family sword we hear of his inherited father to son? Where did this tradition come from and what will that tell us about Jon?
 

Agree--Edric seems too young. And that however the sword is chosen has passed Darkstar by. I really like the sword of the evening contrast. Are you thinking maybe that's a tie in to the sword of the evening who married Nymeria?
 

Oh, I like this. I like this! The basics I know of the Lady of the Lake stories is that sometimes there's the one--the sword guardian. And sometimes there are more who play various roles (like Nimue/Vivienne tempting Merlin into the cave). 
 
But Starfall not only has the Palestone Sword and all that potential imagery. It's on an island. Isolated and surrounded by water--fits (maybe) a Lady of the Lake. And I am liking the idea that she may be involved in choosing worthiness. That she helped bestow the sword onto Arthur and it still didn't save him in the end, or something like that--could maybe see that helping to up the guilt quotient.
 
But with the Lady of the Lake--I've been wondering if Dawn doesn't "belong" to the Daynes. If they are the guardians--Lady of the Lake. If that's where the tradition of "only a worthy Dayne comes from"--because the sword isn't "theirs." So it can't be inherited, only earned.
 
Maybe even the sword is bestowed on Daynes as Sword of the Morning UNTIL the Long Night comes again and the "true" Sword of the Morning rises. Though this is probably stretching things.
 

Maybe--but back to your Lady of the Lake imagery: Excalibur is magically bestowed when needed. Like the Sword of the Morning appears to Jon, I think partly because he needs encouragement.
 
If the metaphor holds--am thinking the sword might present itself. Which would be more "practical" story wise. And which might have been foreshadowed by Jon's "epiphany." Maybe.
 
And I agree--the romantic allusions are absolutely there--and intriguing.
 
Edited for clarity.

Thanks for giving the Arthuriana a listen. I do see it a lot, particularly around Tyrion in the rest of the book, but the Daynes have the clearest monopoly.

Yes, that's exactly the connection I was making to the Lady of the Lake. Even the lake at Starfall reinforces it. And Arthur the incomparable knight is definitely, despite his name, a Lancelot figure. Lancelot du Lac - of the lake. Then we've got Joyous Gard, the Tower of Joy, where Lance and Guinevere have their adulterous honeymoon. We've even got a young Galahad in Edric Dayne. Mordred in Darkstar. George won't follow the plotlines closely though. I thought originally that the Daynes were intended to lend a romanticism to everything, the pinnacles of knightliness, chivalry, beautiful maidens from a bygone age. But since the introduction of Darkstar, I've wondered if there won't be a more real-time role for them. This is George's twilight saga, we're nearing the end of the cycle, so it makes sense that the real-time Dayne family member playing a role in events is a Mordred figure who ends Camelot.

Mordred was never deemed worthy to carry Excalibur. When Mordred kills King Arthur on the battlefield, the last thing Arthur does is command his squire to return it to the Lady of the Lake. So if Excalibur can be compared to the Sword of the Morning, it IS a sword that is lent out - to the worthiest man in the kingdom.

Anyway, don't want to get too bogged down with specific parallels though I'm very interested in seeing what George will do with Darkstar, Dawn and Edric.