Rhaegar, we hardly know ye? (Lyanna, Elia, Aegon, PtwP)

[corbon]

Fine. Rhaegar was totally cut off from his duties because his father hated him.
So he had nothing to do in KL and DS, then surely he should run off and have some fun.
Anyway he has nothing to perform his duty there. Better to keep busy in TOJ. Is this what you want to tell me?

I don't know if he had 'nothing' to do in KL and DS. I'm just pointing out that you are making up a lot of things to justify your position and that they are more often than not things that seem to run contrary to the text.
I do know that he was distrusted and disliked by his father. Thats in the text. I do know that his father had older men in charge, from the text (and that there were factions in court, with the younger more vigorous set that Rhaegar fits with out of favour). I know that no one took the rebellion seriously initially. I know that Lord Merryweather, an old man, was in charge initially, not Rhaegar.

I do know that Rhaegar was regarded as 'dutiful above all' by a man who spent considerable time with him after he returned. Doesn't seem much like Barristan considered Rhaegar had 'abandoned' his duties with that sort of statement now, does it?

 

I don't know what he considered his 'duties' were. I don't know how family, ruling, court, the kings favour, the future, prophecy and any other factors interact in his judgement of that duty. I don't know all the things he knew, heck I know almost none of the things he knew and its clear you know even less. I can't tell exactly how is relationship with Aerys was going and how that limited his duties or not, except for the general statement that Aerys distrusted him, and the sort of perspective one gets get from things like Aerys complaining about his granddaughter Rhaenys 'smelling too Dornish'.
So I don't think any of us are in any sort of position to be making strong judgements about where his duties lay, and doing what.

And I really don't think we understand better than Barristan about whether Rhaegar abandoned his duties.

 

If pressed, I guess what I would like is for people to stop making strong judgement statements based entirely on personal feelings in a modern context that ignore textual context available. I doubt I'll ever get that, but one can try.
 

A man left his family and died in car crash, he surely did not abandon anybody.
However, a man left his family and ran off with another man's fiancee to have sex for several months, and he decided He would go back home after he had this baby, however, during this time, the family of that woman came to his house and attacked his family and this man failed to show up until very late, this is indeed "abandon".

Problem is, this is purely your personal judgement of the situation, a personal judgement made with almost no facts and based entirely on appearances without any understanding of context.

You (none of us in fact) simply aren't qualified to be making this judgement. Barristan doesn't know everything either, but he knows and understands a heck of a lot more about Rhaegar's 'duties' than we do, and spent time with Rhaegar after he returned, and Barristan rejects your judgement completely.
 

Oh. That jiame thing is really hilarious.
There is only one jiame, to protect king.
How dare rhaegar expect jiame to protect king, queen, viserys, Elia and her two children at the same time?
He left 3 KG for lyanna. But only one youngest and also a hostage one for his total six family members.
And he dared to blame jiame?
That is more likely Jiame's self blame in his dream.

 

:bang:   Congratulations on entirely missing the point. It wasn't that Rhaegar expected Jaime to protect his family over and above other aspects of his job, its that no one expected they were in any real danger, not even Jaime.

 

And you know what. They weren't in any danger until after Rhaegar came back and led an army out and died in battle defending them.

Why is your super special 'hindsight' so utterly blind to that? :thumbsdown:

[purple-eyes]

I don't know if he had 'nothing' to do in KL and DS. I'm just pointing out that you are making up a lot of things to justify your position and that they are more often than not things that seem to run contrary to the text.
I do know that he was distrusted and disliked by his father. Thats in the text. I do know that his father had older men in charge, from the text (and that there were factions in court, with the younger more vigorous set that Rhaegar fits with out of favour). I know that no one took the rebellion seriously initially. I know that Lord Merryweather, an old man, was in charge initially, not Rhaegar.

I do know that Rhaegar was regarded as 'dutiful above all' by a man who spent considerable time with him after he returned. Doesn't seem much like Barristan considered Rhaegar had 'abandoned' his duties with that sort of statement now, does it?
 
I don't know what he considered his 'duties' were. I don't know how family, ruling, court, the kings favour, the future, prophecy and any other factors interact in his judgement of that duty. I don't know all the things he knew, heck I know almost none of the things he knew and its clear you know even less. I can't tell exactly how is relationship with Aerys was going and how that limited his duties or not, except for the general statement that Aerys distrusted him, and the sort of perspective one gets get from things like Aerys complaining about his granddaughter Rhaenys 'smelling too Dornish'.
So I don't think any of us are in any sort of position to be making strong judgements about where his duties lay, and doing what.
And I really don't think we understand better than Barristan about whether Rhaegar abandoned his duties.
 
If pressed, I guess what I would like is for people to stop making strong judgement statements based entirely on personal feelings in a modern context that ignore textual context available. I doubt I'll ever get that, but one can try.
 


Problem is, this is purely your personal judgement of the situation, a personal judgement made with almost no facts and based entirely on appearances without any understanding of context.
You (none of us in fact) simply aren't qualified to be making this judgement. Barristan doesn't know everything either, but he knows and understands a heck of a lot more about Rhaegar's 'duties' than we do, and spent time with Rhaegar after he returned, and Barristan rejects your judgement completely.
 

 
:bang:   Congratulations on entirely missing the point. It wasn't that Rhaegar expected Jaime to protect his family over and above other aspects of his job, its that no one expected they were in any real danger, not even Jaime.
 
And you know what. They weren't in any danger until after Rhaegar came back and led an army out and died in battle defending them.
Why is your super special 'hindsight' so utterly blind to that? :thumbsdown:

Barristan rejected what?
Barristan could not say much before dany since she is the queen and rhaegar is her brother.
See how mild he described Aerys?
In his mind, he said if Elia was chosen, war would be avoided.
What does this mean?
What reason did he think for the war?
Who did he hold to stir the war?
You just see things you want to see from the texts.

[corbon]

Barristan rejected what?
Barristan could not say much before dany since she is the queen and rhaegar is her brother.
See how mild he described Aerys?

He implicitly rejected your position that Rhaegar abandoned his duties when he described Rahegar to Dany as 'dutiful above all'.

Mild or not, he told the truth to Dany about Aerys, and about the Targaryen taint. He couched things gently for her, but he didn't lie and he didn't make completely false characterisations so your argument that he lied to her just to say nice things isn't worth the electrons used to make it.
 

In his mind, he said if Elia was chosen, war would be avoided.
What does this mean?
What reason did he think for the war?
Who did he hold to stir the war?

 

You mean this?
Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.
Barristan is speculating. He doesn't know, he says might have been avoided. He does this quite often, thinking of possibilities and might have beens and whys and its always about stuff he doesn't actually know or understand properly. Ashara's state of mind around her 'suicide' is the most famous example, but he's doing it here too.

 

What it means is that he thinks (and reasonably enough too, though we don't yet know that it is accurate) that the choosing of Lyanna was a very early link in the causal chain that led to war. Without the choosing of Lyanna, maybe there wouldn't be an abduction a year later. Without the abduction, probably Brandon wouldn't have ridden to KL and committed treason. Etc etc.

But while eliminating a link in the chain may have prevented the war, that doesn't mean that that particular link is responsible for the war (to think such is a basic logical fallacy) and that isn't what Barristan is thinking. He's just thinking that if that link didn't happen the war might not have happened either, which is completely different from blaming the war on that link.
Lots of other links were needed for the war to happen, and most of them were considerably more critical toward it happening.

 

We don't know who he held to stir the war, but most likely he recognised that several actors held different levels of responsibility with the first major 'there's no real going back from here' step being Brandon's gallant foolishness and the final 'war ins now inevitable' step being Aerys decision to call for Ned and Robert's heads as well. Rhaegar would seem to be responsible for the first real 'trigger' point, but as we know from history the trigger point is often something relatively minor compared to what follows and its always virtually unrelated stresses that lead that minor trigger point into a major confrontation.

 

You just see things you want to see from the texts.

I try at least to stick to whats actually there - and try to account for all of it rather than just cherry picking what suits my argument.

[History of Westeros]

Hey LPC, great post and thanks for the mention.

 

Your core point that we know way less than Rhaegar did about what he was doing, and that we should perhaps reserve judgement or at least keep our own ignorance in mind is very strong.

 

It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where he comes out of this looking like a good guy (though I don't think he looks like a bad guy either) but GRRM has a better imagination than me, and probably most of us :)

 

When we learn the truth (or as much of it as we're given) I'm guessing it might make sense, but it also might become even more contentious. GRRM loves to write about the human heart in conflict and it sounds like Rhaegar had some HUGE conflicts in his life. The prophecies & his father's horrible reign being the biggest ones, but not the end of the list.

[UnViserion]

Im uncertain to what degree love was a factor in their running off. I don't think they spent anywhere near enough time together for the current heir to the Iron Throne, remembered as capable and wise, to elope.

Feels forced.