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Three Fires, Three Mounts, and Three Treasons....

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Three betrayals:

Gold - Sellswords

Blood- Ilyrio

Love - Tyrion saving Jaime

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Treason is a strong word - it should refer to people who owe Dany their service, rather than people she just comes to trust.

So, that's soldiers (Jorah, bloodriders, sellswords etc), and the government personnel of her city.

It's hard to think that the work of the Harpy isn't one of the treasons - that would be the treason for blood.

Jorah unwittingly betrayed Dany out of love when he carried her into Mirri's tent. He only wanted to help her, but the result was the death of her child. Before that, he betrayed her for Robert's gold - except that his real motivation was the wish to go home; so you could call that a betrayal for love too, love of home.

That leaves the treason for gold - very probably sellswords.

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I see the three prophecies in the House of the Undying as not just about Dany's future but about a collective experience shared by all three heads of the dragon (Dany, Jon, Bran? Tyrion?).   The parallels to Jon's character arc in the three treasons prophecy is too on the nose to be pure coincidence.

"three treasons will you know ... once for blood and once for gold and once for love ..."

Once for Blood - The Night's Watch

Once for Love - Ygritte

Once for Gold - Someone close to Jon betrays him after he becomes King of the North?

 

Fire prophecy is much more flavored after Dany's arc.

"three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love

One for Life - Literally lighting the funeral pyre and burning Khal Drogo and Miri Maaz Dur to birth her dragons.

One for Death - If mummer's version follows the books, could be her burning the Khals in Vaes Dothrak, but more likely it foreshadows a seminal event that allows Dany to capture the Iron Throne at a terrible blood cost.

One for Love - Nissa Nissa moment when Dany sacrifices someone or something really dear to her to become Azhor Ahai.

 

"three mounts must you ride ... one to bed and one to dread and one to love"

This one is tricky because metaphorically, riding a mount aligns closely with Dany's identity as a conqueror and lover, but it may also allude to Bran's inability to move or function independently where his mount or metaphorical ride occurs either through metaphysical skinchanging or literally by being physically carried by a helper ie. Hodor, Coldhands. Nonetheless Bran seems most likely to follow the path to becoming the third head of the dragon followed by Tyrion, and Aegon if Aegon is in fact a literal Targaryen heir.

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My personal interpertation of the three Fires, Mounts and Treasons is that they are all supposed to happen AFTER Dany's visit at the House of the Undying.

Dany (and many readers) believes that Mirri Maz Duur is the Blood Treason, but Mirri betrayed Dany BEFORE she received the prophecy, which makes me think that Mirri's betrayal doesn't count as one of her Three Treasons.

The same goes for the Mounts; Drogo and/or Silver is commonly thought to be the Mount to Bed, but again, this happened BEFORE the House of the Undying.

 

(Also I'm wondering, how is Mirri's betrayal related to blood. Mirri betrayed Dany because of vengence. Not Blood, not Gold and not Love (although, that can be interpreted differently by different people).)

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On 14.10.2016 at 1:18 PM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

My personal interpertation of the three Fires, Mounts and Treasons is that they are all supposed to happen AFTER Dany's visit at the House of the Undying.

Dany (and many readers) believes that Mirri Maz Duur is the Blood Treason, but Mirri betrayed Dany BEFORE she received the prophecy, which makes me think that Mirri's betrayal doesn't count as one of her Three Treasons.

The same goes for the Mounts; Drogo and/or Silver is commonly thought to be the Mount to Bed, but again, this happened BEFORE the House of the Undying.

 

(Also I'm wondering, how is Mirri's betrayal related to blood. Mirri betrayed Dany because of vengence. Not Blood, not Gold and not Love (although, that can be interpreted differently by different people).)

I think that some of the prophesies have already been fulfilled at that point.

The reason I think that is the vision triplets: Viseriys' death ... already happened. Rhaego's death - already happened. Rhaegar's death ... you get my drift.

The vision triplets seem to be somehow paired with the fires/mounts/treason's triplets. That's because after getting the fires/mounts/treasons lines Dany says: 'I don't understand. Help me - show me.' And the Undying answer: 'Help her - show her ...' And then the vision triplets come. So the visions are meant as explanations to the fires/mounts/treasons.

Since some of the vision triplets have already happened at that point and the vision triplets seem to be paired with the fires/mounts/treasons I draw the conclusion, that some of the fires/mounts/treason also already have happened at that time.

What has not yet happened is Dany's understanding of these - partly past, partly future - events. And that's the reason she (and we as readers) get the prophecy and why past events are included. As a key to making sense to why what happened in the past and how it is linked to what will happen in the future of the story. We - and Dany - have to put the puzzle pieces together and find out what the whole saga means, starting with Rhaegar's death (as per vision triplet 1 and it being the chronologically first event in the visions) and going to the present and to the future books.

***

Treasons' triplet: pair with first vision triplet (Viserys', Rhaego's and Rhaegar's deaths)

- Treason for gold: Viserys (golden 'crown' running down his head)

- Treason for blood: Mirri killing Rhaego as revenge for the slaughter, enslavement and rape of her people.

- Treason for love: Rhaegar running off with Lyanna and being killed because of it.

Conclusive words:  daughter of death. Check. They are all dead.

It may seem a bit disappointing to some that all three treasons have already happened, but that's what you get when you pair the triplets. And sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - well.

 

Fires' triplet: pair with second vision triplet (Stannis burning sword, the cloth dragon and the stone beast breathing shadow fire)

- Fire to love: light up the real lightbringer. Stannis' sword being fake. Poor Nissa Nissa whoever she may be.

- Fire for death: set fire to the cloth dragon.

- Fire for life: Anyone's guess. My take is something to do with the burning of Winterfell and the stone gargoyle falling from the burning first keep ('taking wing') right at the entrance to the crypts and their secret. IMO to do with Jon being exposed as a living Targ, the lie having been his Stark ID.

Conclusive words: slayer of lies. Stannis false lightbringer: check. A prop-up dragon: probable check, a false Stark/Snow, (really a Targ): check.

 

 Mounts' triplet: pair with third vision triplet (Dany's white, Vic looking unhappy, Flower-Jon)

- Mount to bed: obvious: The White, when she rode to her wedding night with Drogo

- Mount to dread:  Vic is unhappy for a reason. Why? My guess is he is looking at the mount to dread.

- Mount to love: She's got to ride something on her way north to Jon.

Conclusive words: bride of fire. Check for Drogo. Probable check for Vic. Jon we can only speculate. About Vic note that the prophecy says bride, not wife. The wording does not make it necessarily for Dany to actually marry all three. In principle it would be enough if they want to marry her, which in Vic's case checks.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Amris said:

I think that some of the prophesies have already been fulfilled at that point.

The reason I think that is the vision triplets: Viseriys' death ... already happened. Rhaego's death - already happened. Rhaegar's death ... you get my drift.

The vision triplets seem to be somehow paired with the fires/mounts/treason's triplets. That's because after getting the fires/mounts/treasons lines Dany says: 'I don't understand. Help me - show me.' And the Undying answer: 'Help her - show her ...' And then the vision triplets come. So the visions are meant as explanations to the fires/mounts/treasons.

Since some of the vision triplets have already happened at that point and the vision triplets seem to be paired with the fires/mounts/treasons I draw the conclusion, that some of the fires/mounts/treason also already have happened at that time.

What has not yet happened is Dany's understanding of these - partly past, partly future - events. And that's the reason she (and we as readers) get the prophecy and why past events are included. As a key to making sense to why what happened in the past and how it is linked to what will happen in the future of the story. We - and Dany - have to put the puzzle pieces together and find out what the whole saga means, starting with Rhaegar's death (as per vision triplet 1 and it being the chronologically first event in the visions) and going to the present and to the future books.

***

Treasons' triplet: pair with first vision triplet (Viserys', Rhaego's and Rhaegar's deaths)

- Treason for gold: Viserys (golden 'crown' running down his head)

- Treason for blood: Mirri killing Rhaego as revenge for the slaughter, enslavement and rape of her people.

- Treason for love: Rhaegar running off with Lyanna and being killed because of it.

Conclusive words:  daughter of death. Check. They are all dead.

It may seem a bit disappointing to some that all three treasons have already happened, but that's what you get when you pair the triplets. And sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - well.

 

Fires' triplet: pair with second vision triplet (Stannis burning sword, the cloth dragon and the stone beast breathing shadow fire)

- Fire to love: light up the real lightbringer. Stannis' sword being fake. Poor Nissa Nissa whoever she may be.

- Fire for death: set fire to the cloth dragon.

- Fire for life: Anyone's guess. My take is something to do with the burning of Winterfell and the stone gargoyle falling from the burning first keep ('taking wing') right at the entrance to the crypts and their secret. IMO to do with Jon being exposed as a living Targ, the lie having been his Stark ID.

Conclusive words: slayer of lies. Stannis false lightbringer: check. A prop-up dragon: probable check, a false Stark/Snow, (really a Targ): check.

 

 Mounts' triplet: pair with third vision triplet (Dany's white, Vic looking unhappy, Flower-Jon)

- Mount to bed: obvious: The White, when she rode to her wedding night with Drogo

- Mount to dread:  Vic is unhappy for a reason. Why? My guess is he is looking at the mount to dread.

- Mount to love: She's got to ride something on her way north to Jon.

Conclusive words: bride of fire. Check for Drogo. Probable check for Vic. Jon we can only speculate. About Vic note that the prophecy says bride, not wife. The wording does not make it necessarily for Dany to actually marry all three. In principle it would be enough if they want to marry her, which in Vic's case checks.

Thanks for pointing out that the vision triplets and the fires/mounts/treason's triplets are paired. I hadn't noticed that before but now that you mention it, it seems obvious. Great catch.

I think the fire triplet still needs some work, though. Both the treason and the mount triplets are deeply personal. The treason triplets are paired with deaths which determined her life. The mount triplets / bride thing, just judging from the mount to bed, are extremely personal.

Your explanation for the fire triplet seems somewhat remote when her connection to fire (she stepped into a burning funeral pyre!) and the other triplets demand something equally personal. She neither knows Stannis nor nor Aegon. How do these lies she's supposed to slay affect her deeply?

She must slay misconceptions. Her own, not those of others.

We have not heard masses cheering for Aegon. We have seen them cheer the Dragon Queen. Not the Dany that is, but the Dany they want - the liberator of slaves, Aegon the Conqueror reborn, the wearer of Meereenese bunny ears. In other words: a cloth dragon. While she chains her real dragons outside the city. She let herself get sidetracked. She needs to burn those bunny ears, and get her life back on track.

This is currently taking place.

Stannis tried to fill the role of Azor Ahai out of duty. Yet the story of Azor Ahai says that it was love - his love for Nissa-Nissa or Nissa-Nissa's love for him - that lighted his sword. (Something that is overshadowed in the telling by Azor Ahai killing Nissa Nissa.) That is what doomed his attempt to failure.

This realization is still open as Dany hasn't realized yet there is a need for Azor Ahai.

Which leaves us with the stone beast breathing shadow fire. I have no idea where that fits in.

ETA: The stone beast stands for the Doom of Valyria. What was it Quaithe said? To go West you must go East, to go North, you must go South?  The flower at the wall in the Bride of Fire triplet suggests she will go North, and she will have to understand the Doom of Valyria in the South in order to solve the problems in the North.

 

Edited by Tini

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On 5/19/2016 at 9:05 AM, Tanerian said:

Haven't thought about this for quit some time, but back during Feast I sailed aboard the SS Jon x Dany and theorized that each "Love" bit was Jon related. From there I figured if the 3rd part of each prophecy bit were related, perhaps the same would be true of the first and second bits.

The first three would all be related to her Dothraki arc.

Fire for life - Birth of her Dragons

Mount to Bed - Her Silver To Drogo

Treason for Blood - Mirri Maz Dur

The second three related to her Mereen arc.

Fire for death - Possibly burning Mereen to the ground

Mount to dread - Drogon, most likely used to create aforementioned fire

Treason for gold - her betrayal in Mereen, most likely for wealth etc.

The final would be her North/Wall/Final story arc, and being the furthest away, hardest to predict.

Fire for love - Not sure. If Jon x Dany is ever a thing, I don't see it being a happily ever after affair. Perhaps he is brought back to life more and slowly loses himself or perhaps becomes a wight and in either instance is set ablaze. Even had theories of Jon being Danys Nissa nissa.

 

Mount to love - Ghost to Jon? She could ride him for sure.

Treason for love - hard to guess. Always assumed it could be Danys own treason, not one done to her. Perhaps having to do with a death of her dragon/s.

Yes! Never seen someone else post this theory (though I admit I haven't trawled every one of these threads). 

I've always thought each iteration of the mount/treason/fire repetition reflected a different moment in Dany's character arc. The first three, as you say, all relate to the start of Dany's journey of self-discovery and becoming.

The second three will probably all centre around the stuff about to go down, where Dany symbolically embraces her 'fire and blood' heritage.

The third three will, again as you say, likely relate to her end game in Westeros. I thought that the fire to love could be the fire pit that adherents of R'hllor jump over when they get married. Also had thought the finally betrayal could be Dany's own betrayal of her dragons when she realises that they cannot exist in the kind of peaceful world she wants to building.

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My take on this prophecy is that Dany is showing every indication that she is the Priince who is Promised/Azor Ahai/the Stallion that Mounts the earth (or that these are all the same prophecy from different cultures). It is AAR who forges the sword Lightbringer and in the legend there are three attempts to forge the sword.  Thus, 'three fires you must light'.

Dany also has to light three fires to forge the sword.  The first attempt when the sword is plunged in water and broken in two; occurs when she instructs Mirri Maaz Duur to use blood magic to save Drogo's life.   He is plunged into a bath of water and his body and mind separated or split in two.  If he had lived, he would have been her sworn sword to use the Westerosi parlance; the one who would retake Westeros for her.

She herself seems to have died during childbirth and is reborn amidst smoke and salt tears; she has temporary immunity from fire and her tears steam off her cheeks. The heavy price she has to pay is her unborn son in the equation that death pays for life.  So her son's life in payment for her life.   She is herself the dragon with three heads:  the mother of dragons (mother); daughter of death (maiden) and slayer of lies (crone).  The three aspects of the Morrigan.  On Drogo's death; Dany automatically becomes one of the crones of Vaes Dothrak; the Dothraki high holy place.  So in each forging; she becomes one of the heads of the dragon. 

The dragon has three heads.

. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . .

If you view the prophecy each with a fire, amount, and a treason; it looks like this:

1) Mother of Dragons:  For life, to bed, for blood

- Dany's life in exchange for her son's life, a bed of blood
- Qotho accuses Dany of being a maegi, says he will kill her after killing MMD
- failed forging of sword in water 
- Drogo plunged into a bath of water - soul and body separated, broken in two
- Dany resurrected amidst salt tears and smoke
- temporary immunity to fire; not fully transformed
- death pays for life

- the first treason:  a blood treason; the death of Drogo and Rheago

2)  Daughter of Death:  for death, to dread, for gold
- failed forging of sword in the heart of a lion, sword is shattered and broken in two

- this could represent the shattering of House Lannister and splitting the 'lion' sword in two: Jaime, the golden      man and Tyrion, the drunken god.

- the second treason: for gold; the theft of a dragon

3) Slayer of Lies:  one to love, one to love, once for love
- successful forging in a heart of fire
- Dany loves her children, the dragons

- third treason: for love; Dany sacrifices the last dragon to forge the red sword itself.

When Dany arrives at Vaes Dothrak she will pass beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains where she will 'touch the light'.    It's worth noting that Catelyn describes the crone as carrying a lantern.  So literally lighting the way or bringing the light.

It's also worth noting that when MMD begins the fire and blood ritual; she warned Dany that she would call on powers old and dark; a dangerous path:

Quote

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them." GoT Danaerys VIII

Melisandre would say that there can be no "light without dark".  Dany sees the old and dark powers dancing around the fire in the sandsilk tent:

Quote

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

 Melisandre sees the same vision of a man limned in flame:

Quote

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

So while Dany has never met Jon, Melisandre identifies the man wreathed in flame.  I don't think this means that Jon is shown in a fiery incarnation; only that looking past a fire to something on the other side would make it appear as though they are wreathed in flame or limned in flame.

Dany represents the light to Jon's darkness; the fire and the ice. Dany as the crone,  woke the old gods and opened the door to death allowing the first crow to fly into the world.   Jon is the three-eyed crow.

The 'great wolf' may be Jon or it may be Bran.  Coldhands tells Sam that  "the One" is waiting for him on the other side of the Black Gate.  The One 'Who's Name Can't be Spoken' since what follows is that Sam must take an oath three times never to speak of Bran, to let the world think he is dead, so no one comes looking for him.

Melisandre also sees Bran when she is searching the fires:

Quote

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

 

Edited by LynnS

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I'm gonna say that the treason for love will be Young Griff ("Aegon VI Targaryen") betraying Daenerys for Arianne, who has seduced him to her side, and starting a war with his apparent aunt.

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Three betrayals - blood - Mirri Maaz

Gold - Jorah or Sellswords

Love - Barristan betraying her through he loves her deeply, because he thinks she is mad

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I think the entire thing is talking about the 3 Dragons; specifically how Dany loses each of them before...

(Given the dragons are basically flying Atomic Bombs, i dont see GRRM making them the heros of the story. It seems more likely they will end up on different sides in a big final battle and give us a situation of Mutually Assured Distruction.)

First, i think you should start with the introductions to each of the lists "Three Fires, Three Mounts, Three Treasons". Dragons are discribed as "fire made flesh" and people ride them, so they can be discribes as "Fires" and "Mounts". And if im right in thinking all of the Dragons will leave Dany, this would make the dragons Treasonous.

The Dragons are the Fires, the Mounts and the Treasons Dany will know.

As for the later parts of the lists, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd words could correlate with each of the dragons so the actual groups would look like this: 

1 = Life, bed and Blood

2 = Death, Dread and Gold

3 = Love, love and love.

One sounds a lot like Child Birth; perhaps we were lied to about Rhego's death as we never saw the body or maybe its another birth that will be exploited to steal a dragon.

Two, ive got no idea but the Golden Company springs to mind when i hear Gold and Death (they are lead by skulls that talk)

Three is the trickiest just because it could apply to so many people. It could be someone who loves Dany, someone who Dany loves or someone who hates Dany for the love of someone Dany has hurt. 

Anyway, thats my theory...

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On Invalid Date at 9:22 PM, MGraham said:

One for love however is Quentyn. He betrayed her to win her love... trying to impress her by taming a dragon

He said that to his friends, but in fact he wanted the dragon for Dorne. 

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2 hours ago, Tygett Blackwood said:

He said that to his friends, but in fact he wanted the dragon for Dorne. 

For his father - a father whom he loved. It could still be the betrayal for love, then.

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Posted (edited)

Other's have proposed that the vision triplets of the HotU prophecy may be not only about Dany but about all three 'heads of the dragon'. I want to marry that idea to the details that we have so far found out about the different HotU vision triplets and see if that can bring us a step further towards a comprehensive explanation of the whole prophecy:

My premise is that each of the 3x3 stanzas has one sentence about Dany's story, one about Aegon's and one about Jon's.

In that light the prophecy looks like this:

Stanza 1: Daughter of Death

sentence 1: Viserys being crowned with molten gold - Dany

Self-explanatory.

sentence 2: tall lord with copper skin beneath the banner of a fiery stallion - Aegon

Explanation: the case for Rhaego is good, I accept that. However we should not forget Rhaego is just a theory and alternatives are not completely ruled out yet.

Aegon does have silver-gold hair, he is out for war (a burning city, KL even set afire by Cersei for instance?) and if Aegon turns out to be a Blackfyre then standing below Bittersteel's banner (burning horse) would make perfect sense as a symbol in a prophetic dream. The copper skin is possible too since it is to be expected that Aegon would be quite tanned after spending so much times outdoors on a river boat, in the south near Volantis and in military camps. Since we are in the Daughter of Death stanza this would point towards Aegon's not surviving the series. I don't think that comes as a big surprise. Indeed it fits well with what we suspect about his future.

sentence 3: Dying prince in water with scattering rubies whispering a woman's name (likely Lyanna) - Jon

Self-explanatory

Stanza 2: Slayer of Lies

sentence 1: Blue-eyed man with burning sword and no shadow - Dany

Explanation: If we accept the man to be Stannis then the sword hints at his Azor Ahai claim. Which we know is actually a lie (Slayer of Lies). If we postulate that Dany is Azor Ahai (which of course we don't know but which is a definite possibility) then this sentence would relate to Dany. Alternatively even if we postulate Jon, not Dany, is Azor Ahai (or that they both are) then the stanza would still relate to Dany if she turns out to be the one to uncover the falsehood about Stannis' claim.

sentence 2: Cloth dragon on poles among a cheering crowd - Aegon

Explanation: pretty much self-explanatory. If Aegon is a Blackfyre then his claim to the throne is false (Slayer of Lies) even though he is a dragon by being Targ-descended. The puppet - players are Varys and Illyrio and - unwittingly - JonCon.

sentence 3: smoking tower with a great stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire - Jon

Explanation: this one has been the most difficult to unwrap but by now we can be reasonably sure that the stone beast is Bran and the symbolic meaning of this sentence of the prophecy is about the uncovering of Jon's true parentage (Slayer of Lies) in the crypts of Winterfell as I have shown elsewhere. I don't want to repeat myself so I add a link for those who want to know how I can be so sure.

Stanza 3: Bride of Fire

sentence 1: Dany's silver trotting through grass - Dany

self-explanatory

sentence 2: corpse at the prow of a ship, bright eyes in a dead face, grey lips smiling sadly - Aegon

Explanation: This one is hard. But at this point our premise (that all three heads of the dragon are meant) would actually get us further:

In principle the corpse with the grey smile could be Vic, Euron or JonCon as has been argued this way or that many times.

However if we for a moment accept the theory that each stanza has a sentence about each of the three dragon heads (Dany, Aegon, Jon) then JonCon with his greyscale would be the the logical candidate for sentence 2 as this would link the picture to the Aegon plot.

Under this interpretation Dany might actually marry Aegon. (At the very least even in case no marriage actually happens in the future we know that a marriage between Dany and Aegon has been the plan of Aegon's puppet-masters.) So that would fit.

sentence 3: blue flower in a wall of ice - Jon

self-explanatory. It would then follow that Dany and Jon will marry or at least get engaged. No proof for that but it is not like this has never been suspected or argued before.

***

It makes sense that the sentences correlating to Aegon and Jon pop up in a prophecy meant for Dany:

2 of the 3 sentences in each of the 3 stanzas are not directly from Dany's plotline but from Aegon's and Jon's instead but they still relate to Dany because Aegon and Jon impact Dany's claim to the throne, Dany's being but one of three 'heads of the dragon', and quite probably her future quest and reason to be.

That all 3 characters, Dany, Aegon, Jon are being meant by the prophecy also explains why the whole prophecy is in triplets, why the Undying say 'three heads has the dragon' and why they call Dany 'child of three' (the other two being Aegon and Jon). The three real dragons would be a further symbol of this trinity.

***

Now this theory would explain the vision triplets. Now the Fires, Mounts and Treasons triplets would have to be tied in with that. I have tried that elsewhere already but am not sure I am completely satisfied with the result. So I leave that out of this post as of yet.

 

 

Edited by Amris
added missing words

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