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Is Tywin a fool, or is GRRM sloppy?


Dukhasinov

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Something never set right with me about Tywin`s opening moves in the War of the Five Kings. It bothers me so much, I think it might actually be an example of sloppiness on the part of GRRM.

 

   After Catelyn arrests Tyrion, Tywin begins a general blood-feud with the Tullys and Starks. It is implied that the Mountain`s raids into the Riverlands are for the specific purpose of luring Ned Stark out of King`s Landing to bring the Mountain to justice, so that he can capture Ned to use him as a bargaining chip for the release of Tyrion. It is only dumb luck that Ned was injured, and sends Beric Dondarion in his stead. This strikes me as a monumentally stupid and reckless move for someone as supposedly politically savy as Tywin.

 

  Holding the Hand of the KIng hostage would be a direct attack on the authority of the King, and force the Iron Throne to intervene it what was previously a feud between two great houses. Dondarion`s (or Ned`s, as it might have been) punitive expedition was riding under the King`s banner, not that of House Stark. So, when Clegane ambushed Dondarion he directly attacked representatives of the Iron Throne. This cannot be seen as anything less that treason and rebellion. Tywin did not feel the consequences if this because Robert died shortly thereafter, but Tywin didn`t know about Cercei`s plan to kill her husband. We can see from the Greyjoy Rebellion that nothing rouses Robert from his drunken, oversexed stupor quite like a rebellious lord in need of being brought back to heel. The fact that Robert is so deeply in debt to Casterly Rock should make Tywin even more wary, as attainting and beheading Tywin as a rebel would be a convenient way to wipe out the Crown`s debts. Does Tywin really have that much faith in Cercei`s ability to hen-peck Robert into submission?

 

   I really hope I`m missing some critical detail that makes this whole thing make sense.

 

   

 

  

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I do believe Tywin was indeed counting on Cersei owning Robert's balls and even more on Robert being indebted to and dependent on Lannister gold and power.

What kind of King allows two of his bannermen to devastate part of his kingdom anyway? If Robert had been worth anything he would have sent a much larger force, with himself as commander.

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  Holding the Hand of the KIng hostage would be a direct attack on the authority of the King, and force the Iron Throne to intervene it what was previously a feud between two great houses.

 

 

Robert didn't seem to punish Jaime when he put Ned in a coma.

 

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp - "

"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

 

If Ned is captured, and relatively unharmed, then he would be exchanged for Tyrion. Job done. Robert is not going to war against his father-in-law just like he didnt go to war against Cat for kidnapping his brother-in-law. He was invested in a united Westeros and was still paranoid about the Targs. He was not going to start a war against his own family and divide his House.

 

He would have forced Ned and Tywin to apologize to each other, there may have been some minor punishment for breaking the Kings peace but Robert was very, very wary of conflict.

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"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

 

Do we need anymore confirmation that Tywin was right in thinking Cersei carried Robert's balls around in her purse?

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Where was this implied? I thought the purpose was to spread Tully troops thinly to give the Lannisters the advantage in the Golden Tooth? Clegane was without banners so as to provide a defence for Tywin; deny its anything to do with him, and even if he is caught, declare Gregor a rebel and disown him.

And that may be precisely what Tywin wants, Ned thought to himself, to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords.

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Where was this implied? I thought the purpose was to spread Tully troops thinly to give the Lannisters the advantage in the Golden Tooth? Clegane was without banners so as to provide a defence for Tywin; deny its anything to do with him, and even if he is caught, declare Gregor a rebel and disown him.

 

My impression was that it was one of those flimsy, extremely transparent cover ups that anybody in Westeros with two brain cells rubbing together saw through and Robert could still have acted more forceful than he did. 

Then again....Robert is not included in "people with to brain cells rubbing together".

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Do we need anymore confirmation that Tywin was right in thinking Cersei carried Robert's balls around in her purse?

 

The way Robert reacts to Jaimes attack on Ned and his man is one of the poorest parts of AGoT. No King, not even a drunken one, would allow his closest subjects (which Jaime and Nedd clearly are) to slaughter each others men and just be like: "Okay, now say sorry to each other. Btw i'm off hunting."

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The way Robert reacts to Jaimes attack on Ned and his man is one of the poorest parts of AGoT. No King, not even a drunken one, would allow his closest subjects (which Jaime and Nedd clearly are) to slaughter each others men and just be like: "Okay, now say sorry to each other. Btw i'm off hunting."

 

But that was who Robert was. If it wasn't about Targaryens, drinking, hunting and fucking he was not interested. He didn't care about the realm being hugely in debt, he didn't care that members of his royal court were corrupt, he didn't care about raising his legitimate or illegitimate children or governing the realm.

 

He was a poor King.

 

"Robert," Ned said in a voice thick with grief, "you must not do this. Don't die on me. The realm needs you."

Robert took his hand, fingers squeezing hard. "You are . . . such a bad liar, Ned Stark," he said through his pain. "The realm . . . the realm knows . . . what a wretched king I've been. Bad as Aerys, the gods spare me."

"No," Ned told his dying friend, "not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys."

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I don't think it was particularly smart sending Gregor, the most recognizable man in Westeros, plain armor or not. Also, working under the assumption that Ned doesn't get injured, Tywin believes that Cersei has Robert under wraps, and Ned will follow the old way and do his own wet work, there still is considerable risk. Not every one was captured or killed during the ambush. Had Ned managed to escape, then it's an entirely different ballgame.
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(...)

 

"No," Ned told his dying friend, "not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys."

 

I always find this sentence so sad! 

 

Robert was someone who wanted to avoid conflict. He certainly didnt want a conflict between his father-in-law, who had actually a lot of power in Westeros, and his (best) friend.

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The detail that you're missing is in Tywin's character. It's call "hubris". Tywin isn't a fool, and GRRM isn't being sloppy; at that point in the story, Tywin just feels that between the money the IT owes his and Cersei's hold over Robert, he isn't accountable to Robert anymore. And to a certain extent, I think his actions are designed to let Robert know that Tywin considers himself "above the law."

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Something never set right with me about Tywin`s opening moves in the War of the Five Kings. It bothers me so much, I think it might actually be an example of sloppiness on the part of GRRM.

 

   After Catelyn arrests Tyrion, Tywin begins a general blood-feud with the Tullys and Starks. It is implied that the Mountain`s raids into the Riverlands are for the specific purpose of luring Ned Stark out of King`s Landing to bring the Mountain to justice, so that he can capture Ned to use him as a bargaining chip for the release of Tyrion. It is only dumb luck that Ned was injured, and sends Beric Dondarion in his stead. This strikes me as a monumentally stupid and reckless move for someone as supposedly politically savy as Tywin.

 

  Holding the Hand of the KIng hostage would be a direct attack on the authority of the King, and force the Iron Throne to intervene it what was previously a feud between two great houses. Dondarion`s (or Ned`s, as it might have been) punitive expedition was riding under the King`s banner, not that of House Stark. So, when Clegane ambushed Dondarion he directly attacked representatives of the Iron Throne. This cannot be seen as anything less that treason and rebellion. Tywin did not feel the consequences if this because Robert died shortly thereafter, but Tywin didn`t know about Cercei`s plan to kill her husband. We can see from the Greyjoy Rebellion that nothing rouses Robert from his drunken, oversexed stupor quite like a rebellious lord in need of being brought back to heel. The fact that Robert is so deeply in debt to Casterly Rock should make Tywin even more wary, as attainting and beheading Tywin as a rebel would be a convenient way to wipe out the Crown`s debts. Does Tywin really have that much faith in Cercei`s ability to hen-peck Robert into submission?

 

   I really hope I`m missing some critical detail that makes this whole thing make sense.

 

   

 

  

If Ned was captured it would take a day or two to get Tyrion back in a quick trade. Tywin is Robert's bank, one of his strongest bannermen, and his daughter is Robert's wife.

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The detail that you're missing is in Tywin's character. It's call "hubris". Tywin isn't a fool, and GRRM isn't being sloppy; at that point in the story, Tywin just feels that between the money the IT owes his and Cersei's hold over Robert, he isn't accountable to Robert anymore. And to a certain extent, I think his actions are designed to let Robert know that Tywin considers himself "above the law."


It's Robert's fault who never held Tywin accountable.
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Do we need anymore confirmation that Tywin was right in thinking Cersei carried Robert's balls around in her purse?


I think it was more of Robert trying to keep the peace because he didn't want to deal with anymore Stark/Lannister bullshit.
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But that was who Robert was. If it wasn't about Targaryens, drinking, hunting and fucking he was not interested. He didn't care about the realm being hugely in debt, he didn't care that members of his royal court were corrupt, he didn't care about raising his legitimate or illegitimate children or governing the realm.

 

He was a poor King.

 

"Robert," Ned said in a voice thick with grief, "you must not do this. Don't die on me. The realm needs you."

Robert took his hand, fingers squeezing hard. "You are . . . such a bad liar, Ned Stark," he said through his pain. "The realm . . . the realm knows . . . what a wretched king I've been. Bad as Aerys, the gods spare me."

"No," Ned told his dying friend, "not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys."

 

Robert knew Joff was evil and Cercie too. He even mentions to Ned that know that Joff would replace him is the only reason he didn't give up the throne. So he wasn't entirely stupid. He just didn't want another war. You have to give him his due there, the guy clearly wanted peace at all cost.

 

It was very poorly written though to just have him brush aside that Jaime tried to kill his best friend in the middle of the street and Robert wanted Ned to say "sorry".

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Well Tywin is arrogant and overrated.

If Robert had not been dead and been a little savvy he´d have taken this oppurtunity to do A: Crush the person he owes most of his debt to. B: Getting rid of an older wife for a younger, Margaery ... hey, or Sansa  :ack:  not saying it´s great but this would be something a strong medieval king would consider.

He´d show the Tyrrels and Martells what happens when they defy the IT, get rid of a lot of debt and get a new set of heirs.

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