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Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr


Nights Kings Queen

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Technically speaking, MMD never admitted killing Rhaego and Drogo, not in this case nor anywhere else. She just let Dany make her own conclusions.

This doesn't really improve your argument. If she had said it directly it still could have been a lie, like Tyrion re:Joffery.

Of course, there was no lie. There's no way that Rhaegos state at birth (and Danys pains prior to going in the tent) were anything but magic induced. Given Mirris actions preceding by far the most logical conclusion is that Rhaego was sacrificed to give Drogo life.

A question for the skeptics - what life force was used to revive Drogo if not Rhaegos life? Was it the life of the horse?
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I still don't see what's the point you try to make or how it helps the argumentation. Two characters might be doing similar actions but if they have different motivations, the scenario is not the same.

MMD had two main reasons for doing what he did: 1. She, in fact, thought she was saving the world from a future slaver/rapist and 2. her personal revenge. And that's assuming she was involved at all. If she was not, she only wanted to hurt Dany in the best way she could. Tyrion had no selfless reasons for doing what he did. He plainly wanted to hurt Jaime and he wanted to harm others after that (he ended up killing his father at the end).

If you're using this comparison to prove that MMD was not involved, again, that is not what matters in this discussion. Whether she did it or not, it was HER CHOICE to claim responsibility in order to hurt Dany. Tyrion could have also use words in which he didn't claim be the murdered of Joffrey and still could have messed up with Jaime's head. That was his choice. MMD's choice was to hurt Dany.

And if she was not involved at all, it was, imo, worst. Because a tragedy happened to a woman that indeed tried to help her and she used that tragedy to "teach her a lesson", put her on her place and assert herself by gloating in the misfortune of someone who was not, at the end, different from her :dunno:

 

You claim that Dany is a victim too and complain of double standards against her, yet at the same time you are victim-blaming MMD as this post proves once again. Excuse me but I will not blame MMD for what happened to her and how that fucked up her psychology. 

 

You were claiming that ADwD-Tyrion was at his lowest because of what happened to him and we should be more empathetic towards him for the nasty things he did at this state (like that girl in Pentos or the whore in Selhorys). Why do you spare MMD from this empathy, although she suffered incomparably worse than Tyrion?

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Lord Cadwan

 

That's an interesting point.  I think we can see that Ser Gregor and Ramsay are sociopaths, in the eyes of the society they inhabit.  Their behaviour is known to be evil.  Drogo, OTOH, fits completely into his society.  Drogo is far more decent towards his wife than either Ser Gregor or Ramsay are to theirs.

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The apps words on this.
"He (rhaego) comes early from the womb thanks to Mirri Maz Durr's sorcery, which trades his life for that of Drogo's"

Words by Elio and Linda themselves (they made the app). This matter is confirmed for me.

Thank you.
I'll put this in my original post. Maybe people might take they're word on it.
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This doesn't really improve your argument. If she had said it directly it still could have been a lie, like Tyrion re:Joffery.

Of course, there was no lie. There's no way that Rhaegos state at birth (and Danys pains prior to going in the tent) were anything but magic induced. Given Mirris actions preceding by far the most logical conclusion is that Rhaego was sacrificed to give Drogo life.

A question for the skeptics - what life force was used to revive Drogo if not Rhaegos life? Was it the life of the horse?

 

Exactly. She tells Dany that the horse was never the sacrifice ("that was a lie you told yourself"), quite clearly indicating that it was her intention to sacrifice Rhaego from the beginning. But only Dany could make the sacrifice - it only worked because she told Mirri Maz Duur "do it", regardless of the price.

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This doesn't really improve your argument. If she had said it directly it still could have been a lie, like Tyrion re:Joffery.

Of course, there was no lie. There's no way that Rhaegos state at birth (and Danys pains prior to going in the tent) were anything but magic induced. Given Mirris actions preceding by far the most logical conclusion is that Rhaego was sacrificed to give Drogo life.

A question for the skeptics - what life force was used to revive Drogo if not Rhaegos life? Was it the life of the horse?

 

Except we pointed it many times in this thread that Dany suffered stress and trauma before MMD started chanting.

 

The horse. That is how a sacrifice is made. You spill blood and offer it instead of relying on a chance event for someone to bring Dany into the tent at the right moment.

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Except we pointed it many times in this thread that Dany suffered stress and trauma before MMD started chanting.

 

The horse. That is how a sacrifice is made. You spill blood and offer it instead of relying on a chance event for someone to bring Dany into the tent at the right moment.

 

Dany turned to the godswife. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”
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Except we pointed it many times in this thread that Dany suffered stress and trauma before MMD started chanting.
 
The horse. That is how a sacrifice is made. You spill blood and offer it instead of relying on a chance event for someone to bring Dany into the tent at the right moment.

And we've had confirmation that Dany went into labour because of MMD's sorcery.
Even if it was stress and trauma that caused her to go into labour, that read as a very unnatural (disturbing) labour.
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And we've had confirmation that Dany went into labour because of MMD's sorcery.
Even if it was stress and trauma that caused her to go into labour, that read as a very unnatural (disturbing) labour.

 

Where is that confirmation?

 

Dany turned to the godswife. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”

 

Except Dany did not know the price (unless George skipped that part). How does that prove your point?

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Where is that confirmation?
 

 
Except Dany did not know the price (unless George skipped that part). How does that prove your point?

Its apparently on the app.
If you watch Elio and Linda's video for the world of ice and fire, they said originally they planned to have a kind of wiki page for each character. But they scrapped it because it was too much content. So they put the information pages on the app (sadly I haven't got it myself, so I can only take other people's word on what's on it).
So if the app said (I edited this into the original post, with a link to the comment that said the exact words) this, then surely it has to be true.
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And we've had confirmation that Dany went into labour because of MMD's sorcery.
Even if it was stress and trauma that caused her to go into labour, that read as a very unnatural (disturbing) labour.

 

Yeah, the description of her labour is clearly not normal:

 

Another pain grasped her, and Dany bit back a scream. It felt as if her son had a knife in each hand, as if he were hacking at her to cut his way out.

 

She falls to her knees, but that cannot possibly account for how suddenly she goes into labour and the clear suffering she experiences.

 

 

Where is that confirmation?

 

 

Except Dany did not know the price (unless George skipped that part). How does that prove your point?

 

It quite clearly contradicts YOUR point that the horse was the price. Mirri Maz Duur quite openly states that the horse was NOT the price and was never going to be the price - it was a lie Dany told herself. She argues that Dany knew what the price was. Dany then asks herself is she did know the price. The suggestion is that Dany let herself believe the horse was the only price because that's what she wanted to believe.

 

It proves my point because it proves that the horse was not the price of the blood magic - in which case the sacrifice had to be Rhaego. If Rhaego only died because he was brought into the tent, why were Daenerys and Jorah not killed too?

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Just because it's logical to assume that Rhaego would die after Drogo - and I agree, it was a logical conclusion - does not mean that Mirri Maz Duur thought Rhaego's death was a certainty. After all, he was the prophesised leader of the Dothraki. In that case, why not make it certain that he died? (1) (Ironic, considering that she actually just made sure Daenerys would be the stallion that mounts the world.)

 

The discussion between MMD and Daenerys makes it clear that MMD knew that Rhaego was the sacrifice for Drogo's life (2), and she believes that Dany knew it too.

 

 

The sacrifice to keep Drogo alive was not Drogo's horse; nor was the sacrifice Dany or Jorah (if that was the case, they would have perished too). The price was clear, and the price was Rhaego.

 

Had Jorah not brought her into the tent, would Rhaego have lived? Possibly. But MMD surely knew that Daenerys would be brought into the tent (3), given that the Dothraki are completely superstitious. All Jorah did was deliver the sacrifice. Had he not brought Daenerys into the tent, the spell would not have been completed because the necessary sacrifice would not have been present.

 

Just to explain that with another example - imagine if Melisandre had tried to wake the stone dragon in ASoS and her spell required Edric. She starts the spell and then Edric is saved by Davos during the ceremony. He would still have been the intended sacrifice, but Melisandre would be unable to complete her spell without him.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to think Mirri Maz Duur initially tried to help Drogo. But once she knew he was dying and the chance presented itself, she made the decision to prevent Rhaego's birth.

 

And that's the whole point of ASOIAF, isn't it? Characters make choices. MMD chose to sacrifice Rhaego, Dany chose to risk using blood magic, and Jorah chose to bring Dany into the tent. If none of the characters are responsible, it would not be interesting or compelling as drama.

 

I mostly agree with this interpretation, save for a few points that I do not find to be so clear. In particular:

 

(2) is not, IMO, certain whether Mirri really knew, or that she claimed to know in hindsight, doing so with the purpose to hurt Dany. As I see it, it is left ambiguous.

(1) and (3) are contradictory, I think. If she wanted to make certain that Rhaego would die, she would not rely on chance, that does not make sense... Unless she's totally relying on magic, to the extent of believing that the gods / magical powers / whatever-it-is would take care of the matter one way or another, and what's more, that she's also totally right about it. I suppose it's on the reader to buy this or not, personally I am not too much inclined to prioritize the more magical explanations when there are more mundane explanations available - and I guess it doesn't even matter at this point, as I would not expect to ever get any further clarifications about what happened there.

 

But all in all, I agree that it's about characters making choices.

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Its apparently on the app.
If you watch Elio and Linda's video for the world of ice and fire, they said originally they planned to have a kind of wiki page for each character. But they scrapped it because it was too much content. So they put the information pages on the app (sadly I haven't got it myself, so I can only take other people's word on what's on it).
So if the app said (I edited this into the original post, with a link to the comment that said the exact words) this, then surely it has to be true.

 

In this particular case, I don't need any external confirmation to believe one way or the other. Because the chapters I read in AGoT are enough for me to reach a conclusion. Surely the chapters of the book beat the app entries.

 

It quite clearly contradicts YOUR point that the horse was the price. Mirri Maz Duur quite openly states that the horse was NOT the price and was never going to be the price - it was a lie Dany told herself. She argues that Dany knew what the price was. Dany then asks herself is she did know the price. The suggestion is that Dany let herself believe the horse was the only price because that's what she wanted to believe.

 

It proves my point because it proves that the horse was not the price of the blood magic - in which case the sacrifice had to be Rhaego. If Rhaego only died because he was brought into the tent, why were Daenerys and Jorah not killed too?

 

Lol.

 

Dany turned to the godswife. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”

 

Dany: Statement A (the horse was not the sacrifice).

MMD: Statement B (=Statement A is wrong because of X).

 

X is a lie without any doubt. Dany did not know the price and she did not lie to herself as we were inside her head the whole time. Therefore, Statement B is wrong. Therefore, Statement A is wrong too.

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I mostly agree with this interpretation, save for a few points that I do not find to be so clear. In particular:

 

(2) is not, IMO, certain whether Mirri really knew, or that she claimed to know in hindsight, doing so with the purpose to hurt Dany. As I see it, it is left ambiguous.

(1) and (3) are contradictory, I think. If she wanted to make certain that Rhaego would die, she would not rely in chance, that does not make sense... Unless she's totally relying on magic, to the extent of believing that the gods / magical powers / whatever-it-is would take care of the matter one way or another, and what's more, that she's also totally right about it. I suppose it's on the reader to buy this or not, personally I am not too much inclined to prioritize the more magical explanations when there are more mundane explanations available - and I guess it doesn't even matter at this point, as I would not expect to ever get any further clarifications about what happened there.

 

But all in all, I agree that it's about characters making choices.

 

I think the reason (1) and (3) seem contradictory is a problem with the wording. What I'm trying to say in (1) is that Rhaego's death is not a certainty, and MMD would have been foolish to treat it as such. It would be like someone assuming that they don't need to worry about Daenerys (and Viserys) once Aerys died.

 

But whether Dany would give birth in the tent is a bit more of a gamble. I would argue that MMD was just taking each step as it comes, basically. For all she knew, Dany could have been killed by Drogo's bloodriders before actually giving birth. So it doesn't really make sense to assume she had any kind of "master plan" for killing Rhaego.

 

Once Dany left the tent and had her labour induced, there was absolutely no chance of Rhaego surviving.

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In this particular case, I don't need any external confirmation to believe one way or the other. Because the chapters I read in AGoT are enough for me to reach a conclusion. Surely the chapters of the book beat the app entries.

 

 

Lol.

 

Dany turned to the godswife. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”

 

Dany: Statement A (the horse was not the sacrifice).

MMD: Statement B (=Statement A is wrong because of X).

 

X is a lie without any doubt. Dany did not know the price and she did not lie to herself as we were inside her head the whole time. Therefore, Statement B is wrong. Therefore, Statement A is wrong too.

 

We are also in Dany's head when she asks herself whether she knew what the price was. So we know that she at least considered Mirri's accusation.
 

"That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost.

Here's the discussion about the sacrifice:

 

"Do it," Dany blurted. She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon. "Save him."

"There is a price," the godswife warned her.

"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."

"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."

"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

"No," Mirri Maz Duur promised. "Not your death, Khaleesi."

Dany trembled with relief. "Do it."

 

 

She's deliberately not thinking about the consequences. The fact that she is willing to sacrifice her own life - which would include Rhaego - is proof enough that she accidentally sacrifices Rhaego.

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In this particular case, I don't need any external confirmation to believe one way or the other. Because the chapters I read in AGoT are enough for me to reach a conclusion. Surely the chapters of the book beat the app
entries

If it was originally going to be in AWoIaF, wouldn't they have to ask, or let George know what they're writing? If so, that means he saw, and was fine with what had been written
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Except we pointed it many times in this thread that Dany suffered stress and trauma before MMD started chanting


Exactly. Rhaego was already dying the moment Dany said "do it" and the horse was killed Which was before Dany experienced any pain, which was before they went into the tent where Mirri was chanting (I don't believe that Jorah taking her into the tent changed anything).

It's not the horse. As Patrick pointed out, Mirri says a horse is not enough prior to beginning the ritual.
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Yes. Please read the passage again. The sequence order is important; the horse can be brought up in the discussion only with hindsight.

 

Dany orders "Do it" twice; the first time Mirri gives her the warning and the second she agrees to proceed with it. In between the two, it is never implied that a horse is an adequate price; on the contrary it is quite clear that it's a human life and Dany aptly assumes that it would be a significant --as in, dear to her-- life. The gap from her own life to a horse's is not explicable by what's in their exchange before Dany's final decision.

 

I explained the reason I believe that Rhaego's life didn't cross her mind as a potential price, but when she gave her final order to proceed, Dany had all the reasons to believe that the price is the life of an -undefined- human being and no reason whatsoever to believe it's a horse. I also explained why, IMO, Dany did not want to know whose life would be the price, which led her to never ask the right question.

 

Drogo's horse is only mentioned after Dany's final "Do it". Therefore it was never implied to be a part of the deal.

I was recently running a somewhat bowdlerized role playing game with my daughter based on Game of Thrones, and with all the characters changed to animals (my daughter is 9).  Her princess cat character was based on Dany, and when she got to the part where a sacrifice was needed to heal her husband Drogo (a tiger in this version), she said "It has to be something important to him - his horse - no, I can't sacrifice his horse.  Tell Lilac and Rose (her handmaidens, I let her name them) to summon Drogo's oldest slaves!"

Of course, she's been diagnosed with an empathy disorder so it's not uncommon for her to put a low value on human life, I thought it was funny in this context though.

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And MMD was very kind on not clear things up for her. How convenient.


If a doctor today were as unclear about the risks or repercussions of a treatment or proceedue as MMD was with Dany, they would be in jail, and for good reason.

Half truths and withholding critical information are no better than outright lies. If immoral intent is established, then the purpose behind withholding the information becomes clear. It becomes an insideous abuse of trust and clear betrayal.
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