Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[Lady Sharya]

So killing slavers and freeing slaves makes her evil. Suppose that makes Tywin a saint.

In all fairness, we are talking about how responsible Dany's recently kidnaped slave was for the deaths of her husband & child.;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The simplistic approach to this situation is... disturbing.

 

"Character X is not evil because Character Y did the same and you think s/he is not evil!!".

 

Take two characters who do similar things and judge them the same ignoring the context and development is precisely the big mistake HBO makes in the adaptation. Which sucks. 

 

[long explanation that I gave up on keep writing because hopeless]

[LmL]

It feels to me that this is being a little over-analyzed, which I often do myself, so not an insult in any way, but I see it as Mirri seizing an opportunity, however, I do grant that she gave Fair Warning, but even in so doing she didn't clarify, which is clearly a deceptive intent.  Conversely, Dany showed some selfishness of her own, or cognitive dissonance if you prefer, in not seeking clarification as well.  However, I still believe that the end result was going to be the birth of dragons, so no matter how the scene transpires and whether or not MMD had sufficient reasons or not, the end result seems that GRRM wanted the rebirth to be vague as to how this 'procedure' is successful since he seems intent on pointing out to us readers that it was a sort of 'one-off' event.
 
MMD 'ulalating' through the pyre up to the point where she burns can't be ignored.  What possible significance does that play into the success of the pyre hatching dragons?  If we believe what we're told; Only death may pay for life, then it seems that 3 deaths had to be paid for the 3 Dragons hatched; Drogo, Rhaego and MMD, Dany survives so... 

Agreezballz :) Well said :)

[Chinoiserie]

I have not red much of the thread but i just wanted to say that basically she confessed. Now she might have just been gloating but it sounded like a confession to Dany and that is how Dany's actions should be judged. If she in fact was trying to heal Drogo and had nothing to do with Rhaego's death Mirri's gloating was still cruel and very stupid since it very much sounds like a confession, exotically to someone in the mental state Dany was at the moment. And Mirri did not try to correct herself either. So while I feel that Mirri probably was guilty I do think there is a change she was not. But she ought to have seen how guilty she looked so it is very difficult to imagine that she either was not guilty to basically was suicidal at that moment.

[Nozlym]

so uhh LmL whens a new post gonna hit....?

[Lady Sharya]

Yes, I'm well known for not being able to make any good posts.
I think I'll go back to ignoring comments like this. As I said, despite the few trolls on this thread, there has till been good conversation. If you read back, you'll see that my comments were productive, and balanced, finding some degree of fault on both sides - feel free to respond to the substance of any of the many comments I have left on this thread.
But again, if someone mentions "Dany hater trolls" in a general way, and that makes you feel defensive, perhaps that's saying something.
My point to JonCon, to whom I was speaking, was that the trolls are annoying but not really that hard to ignore, because they tend to self-identify.

I'm not a Dany hater and you won't find one from me anywhere, anytime. You also complained of black & white thinkers and I can certainly see where you would get that idea from me and several other posters. I wasn't taking your post personal to myself. It simply doesn't seem a very nice to have your personal conversation posted that criticizes posters who have a different view than you....especially when they've been reasonable & polite. If you don't expect anyone to call you on your unrealistic criticism, perhaps you shouldn't post it for us all to see.

[WSmith84]

Essentially, both Mirri and Dany are victims of eachother and neither were justified in (some of) their behaviour, in my own opinion.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Mirri was a slave whose people were raped and slaughtered at the hands of her Khalasar.

 

In spite of all she suffered, she still agreed to make a pultice for Khal Drogo to stitch his wound, which he promptly tore off, leading to his infection.

 

Dany begged her to stop him from dying, which she did. She never broke her word to Dany. Her fatal mistake was gloating about Drogo and Rhaego's fates.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Crackpot: MMD deliberately killed both Rhaego and Drogo not out of any kind of malice or desire for revenge but in order to manipulate Daenerys into burning her alive; she has some kind of king's blood and was ululating a spell; the whole point was to hatch the dragons.  MMD was the one who knew how to do it, thus while Dany is the mother of dragons, Mirri is at the very least the wacky aunt of dragons.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Mirri was a slave whose people were raped and slaughtered at the hands of her Khalasar.

 

In spite of all she suffered, she still agreed to make a pultice for Khal Drogo to stitch his wound, which he promptly tore off, leading to his infection.

 

Dany begged her to stop him from dying, which she did. She never broke her word to Dany. Her fatal mistake was gloating about Drogo and Rhaego's fates.

Did you miss that whole song and dance with the horse and then telling Dany it was Rhaego who was sacrificed?  That's a definite bait and switch tactic.

 

MMD is awesome at healing and magic but I would not buy a used car from that woman.

[butterbumps!]

[mod]  knock off this personal bullshit.  stop fixating on each other and just discuss the topic.  If you believe someone is trolling, report it, and don't discuss it in the thread.  [/mod]

[A spoon of knife and fork]

 

 

I've seen too many times on this forum, how Mirri Maz Durr didn't betray Dany at all but tried to help her.
This simply isn't true.
Here's where the clarification is needed.

"She did heal drogo, but drogo didn't follow her instructions. That isn't MMD's fault". No it's not. But have you considered she might have known the ointment would be too unbearable. And the impersonation of a healing mother figure ("This old, homely, thick-bodied woman did not look like a maegi to her."
"All men are one flock, or so we are taught. The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them") was a simple tactic to gain Daenerys's trust?

 

 

 

 

Mirri, IMO, was not at fault for Drogo's death.  She was perfectly fine with it, but her medical advice seems sound - Dany thinks so.  

 

Daenerys's killed her own child by walking into the tent. Mirri Maz Durr never killed Rhaego - is not true.

MMD did sacrifice Rhaego for a vegetable version of Drogo. Have you ever considered how timely, and coincidental it was that Dany went into an early labour the minute she walked out the tent, and the minute MMD started her ritual.
I've never been in labour, but this reads like a very odd unnatural first contraction Her son was dying before Dany walked into the tent. Walking into the tent (I think) gave her dragons each a bit of Rhaego's lifeforce. But her son didn't die because she was carried into the tent.

 

I agree that walking into that tent was not the reason that Rhaego died.  The description there is quite clear - labor does not feel like that.  Something was VERY WRONG.

 

But, I do think Dany made a choice... sort of.  She chose (consciously or not) to sacrifice Rhaego when she agreed to the Drogo thing, right before the horse died.  

 

This however does not absolve Mirri for Rhaego's death.  She led Dany to that choice purposefully because she wanted vengeance and she wanted to kill the stallion that mounts the world before he could be born.  She misled Dany - she allowed her to believe the Horse was the sacrifice (if she was being truthful, why have the horse at all? It was clearly there to misdirect).  She also knew that the spell would be a facsimile of life but doesn't really make this clear, because she wants Dany to agree.  Ultimately, she took direct action with intent to kill an innocent, unborn, wanted child.  I understand why she did it, but that's an evil act. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The bolded is not right.

 

Here's the sequence:

 

“Do it,” Dany blurted. She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon. “Save him.”

“There is a price,” the godswife warned her.

“You’ll have gold, horses, whatever you like.”

“It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life.”

“Death?” Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. “My death?” She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur promised. “Not your death, Khaleesi.”

Dany trembled with relief. “Do it.”

The maegi nodded solemnly. “As you speak, so it shall be done. Call your servants.”

Khal Drogo writhed feebly as Rakharo and Quaro lowered him into the bath. “No,” he muttered, “no. Must ride.” Once in the water, all the strength seemed to leak out of him.

“Bring his horse,” Mirri Maz Duur commanded, and so it was done.

 

There is no implication that a horse may be an adequate price.

On the contrary, Mirri is the one who clarifies that it is not a matter of such, but only death may pay for Drogo's life.

Dany gets it immediately and goes as far as to suspect that it's something as precious as her own life. Mirri's negative answer is by no means reassuring; she says it's not her death, but in a way that prompts the question, "whose death, then?", almost explicitely.

Instead of asking, Dany orders her to go on and do the deed. Drogo's horse is not brought up into this discussion until after the deal is done. The sequence of the dialogue is pretty clear in regards to that.

 

Dany did not ask the right question, she just accepted the price, whoever's life this would end. That was her choice and no one else's. I don't think she's a really bad person, I mean if she had asked and she was told, say, "Irri", I do not think that she'd order "Do it" as easily as she did, but here enters a not-so-admirable trait of Dany's coping mechanism, the same one that urges her to "not look back", aka cognitive dissonance.

I suppose that Dany did not think of her baby because at this point she could not think of him as a separate entity but only as an extension of her, part of her own body.

 

MMD said only death can pay for life, told Dany it would not be her death, called for and killed Drogo's horse and said strength of the mount go into the man or some such thing.  You're telling me that wasn't designed to make Dany think the horse's death was the price?

 

The comment about it not being a matter of gold or horses was MMD saying that it's not a matter of paying her in material goods, or of buying his life back.  That doesn't indicate to anyone that the horse's death won't be enough.

 

That's true, but MMD is older and wiser in the ways of the world.  Dany is 14 years old, knows nothing about magic, knows very little about anything--Jon Snow knows more than she does!  MMD had the upper hand, and she used it and that's something that happens all the time in life (bloodmagic aside).  But saying "You knew the price." was unfair and inaccurate.  Dany did not truly understand, and MMD made no attempt to see that she did until after it was over.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's true, but MMD is older and wiser in the ways of the world.  Dany is 14 years old, knows nothing about magic, knows very little about anything--Jon Snow knows more than she does! 

 

You're wrong. She's the real evil mastermind of Westeros. I heard she was already planning Viserys' dead since she was in the womb.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

You're wrong. She's the real evil mastermind of Westeros. I heard she was already planning Viserys' dead since she was in the womb.

You know, if she's The Great Other she could have been planning it since BEFORE she was in the womb.

[LmL]

It feels to me that this is being a little over-analyzed, which I often do myself, so not an insult in any way, but I see it as Mirri seizing an opportunity, however, I do grant that she gave Fair Warning, but even in so doing she didn't clarify, which is clearly a deceptive intent.  Conversely, Dany showed some selfishness of her own, or cognitive dissonance if you prefer, in not seeking clarification as well.  However, I still believe that the end result was going to be the birth of dragons, so no matter how the scene transpires and whether or not MMD had sufficient reasons or not, the end result seems that GRRM wanted the rebirth to be vague as to how this 'procedure' is successful since he seems intent on pointing out to us readers that it was a sort of 'one-off' event.

 

MMD 'ulalating' through the pyre up to the point where she burns can't be ignored.  What possible significance does that play into the success of the pyre hatching dragons?  If we believe what we're told; Only death may pay for life, then it seems that 3 deaths had to be paid for the 3 Dragons hatched; Drogo, Rhaego and MMD, Dany survives so... 

 

Ululate:

v. To howl, wail, or lament loudly.

 

• v. to howl loudly or prolongedly in lamentation or joy
• v. to produce a rapid and prolonged series of sharp noises with one's voice.
• v. To howl, as a dog or a wolf. To hoot or screech, as an owl.

 

Mirri Maz Duur’s voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Dany’s back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving. Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.

[...]

Dany took the torch from Aggo’s hand and thrust it between the logs. The oil took the fire at once, the brush and dried grass a heartbeat later. Tiny flames went darting up the wood like swift red mice, skating over the oil and leaping from bark to branch to leaf. A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover’s breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backward. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony.  (ACOK, Davos)

 

​This passage kind of reminds me of another symbolic Lightbringer forging...

 

Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers. Melisandre sang in the tongue of Asshai, her voice rising and falling like the tides of the sea. Stannis untied his singed leather cape and listened in silence. Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying.

 

By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king’s patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.  (ACOK, Davos)

 

It's not exactly the same, but Melisandre always "sings to the flames" when she is doing a spell (or the illusion of spell, as it happens), I can't help but wonder if there is a connection.  When the dragons hatch, there's a line about the night coming alive with the music of dragons. 

[Targaryen Restoration]

In my mind there is no question about this, MMD tells Dany she knew the price (Rhaego) so obviously she sacrificed Rhaego.  As far as the ointment, it seems strange to me that it would be unbearably painful to such a tough guy as Drago, thus I assume it was not an effective healing method, however that is not nearly as certain as her sacrificing Rhaego.

 

MMD admitted to Dany what he did to Drogo and Rhaego.

 

"It was wrong of them to burn my temple.  It angered the Great Shepherd.  The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now.  His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

 

MMD murdered Rhaego.

[Lord Wraith]

Crackpot: MMD deliberately killed both Rhaego and Drogo not out of any kind of malice or desire for revenge but in order to manipulate Daenerys into burning her alive; she has some kind of king's blood and was ululating a spell; the whole point was to hatch the dragons.  MMD was the one who knew how to do it, thus while Dany is the mother of dragons, Mirri is at the very least the wacky aunt of dragons.

 

Considering she was a student of Marwyn I find is strangely plausible.  Make more sense than Dany doing it be accident.

[Nictarion]

Daenerys didn't hatch her dragons by accident. She told Jorah she knew what she was doing. GRRM himself said it was Daenerys that made up the magic during the pyre, not MMD.

[Targaryen Restoration]

Daenerys didn't hatch her dragons by accident. She told Jorah she knew what she was doing. GRRM himself said it was Daenerys that made up the magic during the pyre, not MMD.

:agree: