Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[WolfOfWinter]

 
That's kinda my whole point. She could have gotten herself out of it easily: "Khaleesi, I told you not to enter. You didn't listen to me". Dany directly accuses her of not being clear, of fool her. MMD never defends herself. Never. Instead, she pretty much tells her "you had it coming and I'm glad it happened to you".

Mirri could never in a million years get herself out of that situation, which I think she knew so she just decided to twist the knife as much as she could. She initially denies Dany's accusation by using the very same argument you present, and Dany even admits to herself that Jorah killed her son by carrying her into the tent, and then goes back to blaming Mirri for it. Dany was desperate to blame anyone but herself and own party and Mirri could tell.
 

"My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

 

"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

 

"Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows. "

 

"The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord," Mirri said. "Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back."

 

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. "The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah," she told him. The knight made no reply. Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

 

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

 

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. 

 

[Avlonnic]

Mad applause for how this thread has morphed into a fascinating brain-storming, idea-building discussion!  Too many to quote individually but...great analyses, great quotes, fantastic mummer/AAR/PTWP/StMtW/Lightbringer soul-grafting ideas...kudos! 
 

[butterbumps!]

A (not so small) variation: Dany is still Azor Ahai and Rhaego is her Nissa Nissa. Rhaego was sacrificed, his essence transferred to the eggs to give Dany her dragons.

 

That was my read on this, if there is truly a 1-1 to any of this.    There's that passage during her fever dream where she visualizes Rhaego with his heart exploding, and I've always taken that (post our introduction to AA, that is), as being the moment of the quickening/ the "Nissa" equivalent:

 

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

“… want to wake the dragon …”

 

(emphasis mine)

[wefollowthecomet]

Mirri died believing she had killed the khal who raped her village, and the Stallion who mounts the world.  She was a slave who successfully took revenge on her captors. Why everyone is trying to take that away from her is beyond me.

Explain to me how someone would make the mental jump from "is it me"? to "OK, since it's not me then it *must* be some horse".

 

It's perfectly clear, that it must be a human life: horses will not do because only death may pay for life. Dany immediately gets that it must be someone (and correctly assumes that it's someone of importance). Her final "do it" is on those terms.

Mirri tells her the horse would do

 

"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."

"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."

"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

.........

"Bring his horse," Mirri Maz Duur commanded, and so it was done. Jhogo led the great red stallion into the tent. When the animal caught the scent of death, he screamed and reared, rolling his eyes. It took three men to subdue him.

"What do you mean to do?" Dany asked her.

"We need the blood," Mirri answered. "That is the way."

 

Mad applause for how this thread has morphed into a fascinating brain-storming, idea-building discussion!  Too many to quote individually but...great analyses, great quotes, fantastic mummer/AAR/PTWP/StMtW/Lightbringer soul-grafting ideas...kudos! 
 

:agree:

I especially like the theory that the horses soul went into Drogo, and Rhaegos soul went into the dragon eggs

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Mirri died believing she had killed the khal who raped her village, and the Stallion who mounts the world.  She was a slave who successfully took revenge on her captors. Why everyone is trying to take that away from her is beyond me.

 

Because Dany is also a victim in the situation, and Rhaego was an innocent. Unless MMD can see the future, she could have not foreseen Rhaego would be raised to rape. It's not ok to give people death sentences for what "they could have done". She's, in that case, not different than Tywin Lannister who killed all the Raynes, even the children, or Robert saying it was ok. to kill Dany and her child "in case" he decides to go to Westeros.

 

There is a big difference between a victim being affected into committing a crime and a victim USING the fact s/he's a victim to harm others.

[Melifeather]

Mirri died believing she had killed the khal who raped her village, and the Stallion who mounts the world.  She was a slave who successfully took revenge on her captors. Why everyone is trying to take that away from her is beyond me.

Mirri tells her the horse would do

:agree:

I especially like the theory that the horses soul went into Drogo, and Rhaegos soul went into the dragon eggs

 

 

I posted this very sentiment on Heresy today. Mirri was in no way, shape or form, helping Dany. She wanted to kill Rhaego so there would be no stallion that mounts the world. Drogo was dying from a blood infection caused by the nasty poultice (probably horse shit) that Mirri placed right on top of his open wound...I think she purposely wanted to harm him. She sacrificed his horse to send the spirit into Drogo to make him seem like he was yet alive, but it wasn't Drogo. What could be expected of a horse spirit in a man? It's an unnatural union and wouldn't even know how to operate within a human. Drogo's spirit was in his bones, however, as well as Rhaego's in his. When Dany built the funeral pyre the fire cracked the bones and released their spirits along with Mirri's and the three spirits went into the eggs.

 

We've read in the books that the spirit remains in the bones. That is why the dead north of the Wall move when the cold touches them. The bones remember a little bit of their life, and the ice magic moves them. Even limbs separated from the body move until the bones are cracked open. Then it remembered it was dead. Wargs/skinchangers have the ability to slip their spirit out of the bones, but it remains anchored to their body. When their body dies their spirit is released. If the warg/skinchanger finds another host before their body dies they can move into the host, but if their body dies first their spirit rises like a helium balloon and they have no control over where it goes.

 

I was thinking that the cracking of bones during a ritual could be similarly applied to create white walkers. It seems to me that white walkers are the ice equivalent of dragons. If dragons eggs can be hatched using human spirits released from their bones, then why not "hatch" white walkers in the same way?

[WSmith84]

Drogo was dying from a blood infection caused by the nasty poultice (probably horse shit) that Mirri placed right on top of his open wound...I think she purposely wanted to harm him.

 

The poultice Mirri made was of firepod and sting-me-not bound in lambskin. Again, Mirri's medical instructions and treatments seem perfectly sound (within universe) and Drogo ignores her advice and replaces her poultice with a Dothraki one made of mud (and probably horseshit). That would almost certainly cause his wound to fester. If Mirri wanted to kill Drogo, why not just let the Dothraki heal him, or why not treat him with the Dothraki methods (which would bring far less suspicion on herself)?

[LmL]

 

 

I posted this very sentiment on Heresy today. Mirri was in no way, shape or form, helping Dany. She wanted to kill Rhaego so there would be no stallion that mounts the world. Drogo was dying from a blood infection caused by the nasty poultice (probably horse shit) that Mirri placed right on top of his open wound...I think she purposely wanted to harm him. She sacrificed his horse to send the spirit into Drogo to make him seem like he was yet alive, but it wasn't Drogo. What could be expected of a horse spirit in a man? It's an unnatural union and wouldn't even know how to operate within a human. Drogo's spirit was in his bones, however, as well as Rhaego's in his. When Dany built the funeral pyre the fire cracked the bones and released their spirits along with Mirri's and the three spirits went into the eggs.

 

We've read in the books that the spirit remains in the bones. That is why the dead north of the Wall move when the cold touches them. The bones remember a little bit of their life, and the ice magic moves them. Even limbs separated from the body move until the bones are cracked open. Then it remembered it was dead. Wargs/skinchangers have the ability to slip their spirit out of the bones, but it remains anchored to their body. When their body dies their spirit is released. If the warg/skinchanger finds another host before their body dies they can move into the host, but if their body dies first their spirit rises like a helium balloon and they have no control over where it goes.

 

I was thinking that the cracking of bones during a ritual could be similarly applied to create white walkers. It seems to me that white walkers are the ice equivalent of dragons. If dragons eggs can be hatched using human spirits released from their bones, then why not "hatch" white walkers in the same way?

 

 

Great points re: bones cracking, I'm on the same page with you here.

 

P.S. Hooray for ice faeries ;)

[Chancho]

Mirri and Walder Frey, they payback to kings and khals, i respect that, fighting the "Holy" ones...

[Lady Sharya]

Mirri and Walder Frey, they payback to kings and khals, i respect that, fighting the "Holy" ones...

You know the distortions of a victim of the barbaric atrocities of the Dothraki are getting carried away when she starts being grouped in with Walder Frey.:bang:

[The Dragons Hand]

In my mind there is no question about this, MMD tells Dany she knew the price (Rhaego) so obviously she sacrificed Rhaego.  As far as the ointment, it seems strange to me that it would be unbearably painful to such a tough guy as Drago, thus I assume it was not an effective healing method, however that is not nearly as certain as her sacrificing Rhaego.

I've always found her thought on the matter to be rather curious, Daenerys think "Did I really?" then move on before coming to a conclusion without thinking "If I look back I am lost."

EDIT: Yes she did, never mind.

[Lady Sharya]

I've always found her thought on the matter to be rather curious, Daenerys think "Did I really?" then move on before coming to a conclusion without thinking "If I look back I am lost."

That's because she knew she was trading somebody's life for Drogo. She knew it wasn't hers, so she didn't want to know anymore when she insisted Mirri perform the ritual. It was only denial-by-hindsight that she decided to think it was the life of a horse. She also knew it was Jorah carrying her into the tent AFTER the bloodriders caused her premature labor that cause more problems for her, not Mirri.

[The Dragons Hand]

 

Because Dany is also a victim in the situation, and Rhaego was an innocent. Unless MMD can see the future, she could have not foreseen Rhaego would be raised to rape. It's not ok to give people death sentences for what "they could have done". She's, in that case, not different than Tywin Lannister who killed all the Raynes, even the children, or Robert saying it was ok. to kill Dany and her child "in case" he decides to go to Westeros.

 

There is a big difference between a victim being affected into committing a crime and a victim USING the fact s/he's a victim to harm others.

Are you telling me that MMD=Cersei is confirmed?

I would argue Robert thinking Daenerys (Though he was likely thinking Viserys or Drogo) would invade is way more likely than the incredibly sketchy art of seeing the future preformed by some Dosh Khaleen. (Whose skills we don't really know, they could be as off-point as Mel) Viserys was gathering an army and Daenerys and Rhaego were, in Robert's more reasonable thoughts, the cement of the alliance.

The children of the Reynes and Tarbecks would almost certainly loathe the Lannisters and would want to see them destroyed when they grew up. They might not act on it, they might act on it but be inept and not accomplish much, or they might do what Petyr helped do to the Tullys. (I think I'm tempting the Petyr Reyne people.)

Rhaego had a real powerful dad and real good looking mom, and because of this he would somehow be capable of conquering the castle-filled world of Planetos with Dothraki war tactics. Unlikely too say the least.

Butchering children is obviously incredibly unethical, but Tywin's morality is nearly non-existent and only extends to fellow Lannisters (Kind of)

MMD is killing a child on innumerable amounts of "Ifs" assumptions and blind faith. Seems just as likely that she killed Rhaego as a form of desperate moronic vengeance like Rickard Karstark killed Tion Frey and Martyn Lannister. (Or was it Willem Lannister? I know it's the pair of Lannisters on the show, but I can't seem to recall which would replaced Tion)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You know the distortions of a victim of the barbaric atrocities of the Dothraki are getting carried away when she starts being grouped in with Walder Frey. :bang:

I don't think MMD is any kind of hero, but she's still not as bad as Walder Frey.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Mad applause for how this thread has morphed into a fascinating brain-storming, idea-building discussion!  Too many to quote individually but...great analyses, great quotes, fantastic mummer/AAR/PTWP/StMtW/Lightbringer soul-grafting ideas...kudos! 
 

That's right, that's how we roll.  :cool4:

[Avlonnic]

That's right, that's how we roll.  :cool4:

Yes, you do!  It is surprising to continue to find ideas that are exciting and challenging and that get my brain going.  Fun stuff.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Mirri died believing she had killed the khal who raped her village, and the Stallion who mounts the world.  She was a slave who successfully took revenge on her captors. Why everyone is trying to take that away from her is beyond me.

Mirri tells her the horse would do

 

It seems that your understanding of the scene is very much coloured by the fact that your books have omitted some crucial dialogue between the two quoted parts, and have replaced it with "........." that happen to be very convenient for a favourable reading regarding a certain character.

 

As it happens, various people in this thread have provided the full text, if you want to look it up.

[wefollowthecomet]

It seems that your understanding of the scene is very much coloured by the fact that your books have omitted some crucial dialogue between the two quoted parts, and have replaced it with "........." that happen to be very convenient for a favourable reading regarding a certain character.

 

As it happens, various people in this thread have provided the full text, if you want to look it up.

Sorry, I misread your original  posts. I was assuming you were saying the defence "Dany believes the sacrifice was the horse" came out of nowhere, when there is a part of the text that suggests that Dany thought Drogos horse was the necessary blood sacrifice. so I only quoted the text relevant to the horse.

 

I have reread your posts, and now understand the point you are trying to make, and you are correct. Dany did agree to to the sacrifice before knowing whose life would be necessary for sacrifice.

[khal drogon]

Good analysis. I have always thought it was Rhaego split in three in the dragons. I thought everyone did! So they were three aspects of the Stallion Who Mounts the World. The three 'heads of the dragon' not Dany but Rhaego. But I've seen Dany as the PtwP not the dragons - I saw them more as the Lightbringers. She brings them into the world by killing her son the 'blood of her blood' Nissa Nissa, same-same. It wouldnt work this tine around to kill a husband or wife because they wouldnt be Targs. Her own son was needed.

I like this take on Azor Ahai theory.

[Severiality]

So let me get this straight. In a universe where magic is this fickle force that no one understands, that plays by its own rules, can only be harnessed by "in the moment" instinct, and did I mention fickle, MMD "knew" exactly how her magic was gonna play out? Knew that Rhaego would die? No way. That goes against everything we know about magic. She never admits to planning out this series of events, only defends them as good things because of their consequences. "Yeah, your son died but now his Dothraki savages won't kill and enslave my people, so I'm not too choked up about it."

MMD just did what she was asked to do. Dany had ample chance to back out, especially when MMD said someone had to die, and Dany said "not me? Do it!" Really, this is a whole sequence of events that shows Dany's inability to even think about the consequences.

No textual evidence that MMD poisoned or intentionally made Drogo worse with the poultice either.

MMD was a vessel for magic to work through, and the magic did all the things she thinks would be beneficial to her people. And she was okay with that. That's really all it is.