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Rethinking Northern History and Relations Between Starks and the Others


Lord Martin

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The conventional history tells us that House Stark rose to power during the Long Night and that the earliest members of House Stark were instrumental in defeating the Others and constructing the Wall (The Last Hero, Bran the Builder, etc...)

 

However, the truth surrounding the Long Night, the origins of House Stark and most of Westerosi ancient history is shrouded in mystery and the deliberately obscure and multi-layered writings of GRRM.

 

The purpose of this threat is to provide a safe space for discussing unconventional views of the origins of House Stark, their relationship to the Others and the events of the Long Night.  This thread might border on heretical at times and that is fine by us.

 

There are some basic ground rules we are hoping posters will follow:

 

1.  Keep it productive - all thoughts are welcomed and that includes thoughtful criticism.  The goal is to move the ball forward instead of belaboring side issues or repeating the same silly arguments ad nauseam.

 

2.  Keep it fair and civil.

 

3.  Keep it supported - cites to primary text are encouraged, use [spoiler] tags to save space or [quote] functions to keep it organized.  Reliance on or citations to other theories are always welcomed but please hyperlink or give credit if possible.

 

4  Keep it fun  - We're all feeling the pain waiting on Winds.  Lets see if we can re-capture some of the horro we first felt as we saw the Others butcher Waymar Royce or the wonder as we heard Old Nan's tales through Bran's ears.  

 

Best regards,

 

butterbumps! and Lord Martin

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There are so many hints of a relationship between the Starks and the Others. Here is a list that I can remember right now.

1) The Wall being the result of blood magic:
   "It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.
   "You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."
2) The Starks were the Kings of Winter
3) The Night King was a Stark according to Old Nan
4) The Stark history of sacrificing humans to the Old Gods. Specially Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark arriving during a blizzard and hanging the entrails of the slavers from the Weirwood Tree at the Wolf Den
5) The Starks have forgotten so much of their history as mentioned by Meera, Jojen and Ygrette.
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Pure especulation post:

 

I like the balance between Valaryan(Targaryen)= Fire and First Men (Stark) = Ice. And I find the quote above about the Wall made of blood very intriguing. So, what if, just like the Valaryan are presumed to use bloodmagic to build anything, really. The First Men (leaded by the Starks) used bloodmagic to build the Wall?

 

What if the blood used to built the Wall is from the defeated Others? Or what if the Last Hero made a pact with the Others to build the Wall with the blood of other men (slaves) or Children of the Forest? Maybe that's why is the magic so strong on the Wall.

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Pure especulation post:

 

I like the balance between Valaryan(Targaryen)= Fire and First Men (Stark) = Ice. And I find the quote above about the Wall made of blood very intriguing. So, what if, just like the Valaryan are presumed to use bloodmagic to build anything, really. The First Men (leaded by the Starks) used bloodmagic to build the Wall?

 

What if the blood used to built the Wall is from the defeated Others? Or what if the Last Hero made a pact with the Others to build the Wall with the blood of other men (slaves) or Children of the Forest? Maybe that's why is the magic so strong on the Wall.

I would go with a Pact between the Last Hero and the Others (with or without the CotF). The blood used was from the captives of the Stark unification wars both side of the Wall. Tormund calls the captives given to Jon "Your blood price"; I think this is a reference to the sacrifices requested by the Starks at the time the Wall was being raised; the Wildlings are descendants from First Men that refused to kneel and pay the blood price, so they stayed beyond the Wall.

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I would go with a Pact between the Last Hero and the Others (with or without the CotF). The blood used was from the captives of the Stark unification wars both side of the Wall. Tormund calls the captives given to Jon "Your blood price"; I think this is a reference to the sacrifices requested by the Starks at the time the Wall was being raised; the Wildlings are descendants from First Men that refuse to kneel and pay the blood price, so they stayed beyond the Wall.

 

Really interesting. That will explain why some people were left North of the Wall.

 

What if, besides looking and fighting the Others, one of the Night's Watch responsability is to capture and sacrifice wildlings? At least when the Wall was being built.

 

The question will be (only is this whole tin foil speculation is true): Why does the First Men hate slavery if the used it? Or when does slavery become prohibited in the North and why?

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Really interesting. That will explain why some people were left North of the Wall.

 

What if, besides looking and fighting the Others, one of the Night's Watch responsability is to capture and sacrifice wildlings? At least when the Wall was being built.

 

The question will be (only is this whole tin foil speculation is true): Why does the First Men hate slavery if the used it? Or when does slavery become prohibited in the North and why?

The 13th LC (a Stark and the Last Hero?) sacrificed people to the Others and was deposed by the Stark in Winterfell and erased from the records. Maybe a new Lord of Winterfell grew tired of the sacrifices and raise a rebellion to change the established system.

 

It might have not been proper slavery, just blood sacrifices; in a similar way that the CoTF sacrificed thousands of their own to use the Hammer of the Waters.

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Really interesting. That will explain why some people were left North of the Wall.

 

What if, besides looking and fighting the Others, one of the Night's Watch responsability is to capture and sacrifice wildlings? At least when the Wall was being built.

 

The question will be (only is this whole tin foil speculation is true): Why does the First Men hate slavery if the used it? Or when does slavery become prohibited in the North and why?

 

This is often mentioned but it's not accurate. According to Martin, the Wall was built over a period of hundreds of years, and it took thousands for it to reach its current height. And even today we know one can get to the other side if they really want to, so I don't think the idea that the wildlings were left or kept north of the Wall is a valid one. 

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The 13th LC (a Stark and the Last Hero?) sacrificed people to the Others and was deposed by the Stark in Winterfell and erased from the records. Maybe a new Lord of Winterfell grew tired of the sacrifices and raise a rebellion to change the established system.

 

So, the Starks erased their participation on the Wall, because they were ashamed of what they done? Interesting.

 

Surely does answer why is that nobody knew who was or from which House was the Last Hero. Nobody seems eager to claim they are from his blood (like it happens with Garreth Greeenhad and Lann the Clever).

 

I don't think the Wall and the sacrifices were made to the Others. I think they were made to the Children. We know, thanks to Bran's vision, that sacrifices were made in front of a weirwood, which is the Children's deity.

 

Maybe the Last Hero reach the Children and in exchange for their help, they demanded human sacrifice to defeat the Others and built the Wall. Afterall, Bloodraven seems trap in the weirwood and we can't ignore the paste that taste like blood. (Reaching, I know, but we don't have a lot of info).

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So, the Starks erased their participation on the Wall, because they were ashamed of what they done? Interesting.

 

Surely does answer why is that nobody knew who was or from which House was the Last Hero. Nobody seems eager to claim they are from his blood (like it happens with Garreth Greeenhad and Lann the Clever).

 

I don't think the Wall and the sacrifices were made to the Others. I think they were made to the Children. We know, thanks to Bran's vision, that sacrifices were made in front of a weirwood, which is the Children's deity.

 

Maybe the Last Hero reach the Children and in exchange for their help, they demanded human sacrifice to defeat the Others and built the Wall. Afterall, Bloodraven seems trap in the weirwood and we can't ignore the paste that taste like blood. (Reaching, I know, but we don't have a lot of info).

Will we have to wait for more information on what the Others are. The only glimpse at the "real" Others that we got is from Bran's dream about the dreamers impaled in ice spires. This resembles a lot the images of the greenseers impaled in the weirwood roots. Maybe the CoTF are part of the Others (as in Other races) or maybe the Others are a version of the Weirwood Net corrupted by ice magic.

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I'm glad you started this, LM!    I'm interested to see where this goes.

 

As is probably already clear, I'm really skeptical of the idea that the Wall was originally to protect against the Others.   I'm also hugely skeptical of the Wall's having the magics of the CotF (or their having helped with construction).   The CotF are simply not architects or builders.   They seem to be credited for assisting the apparent father of architecture in this world (BtB), but I think we should sort of side eye those claims because building is just not something we ever have evidence of outside of these legends (if anything, they carve space, but not aggregate to create it).   

 

I think instead it could turn out that the Wall was built by Kings of Winter as a containment boundary for their kingdom (the Neck already provides a natural impenetrable boundary to the South), as well as defense against the CotF and their human allies (which the KoW seemed to be in opposition to, starting with our pal Brandon of the Bloody Blade, who slaughtered them en masse).

 

 

I know I'm going to need to offer more support and rationale for this, but I thought it might be useful to just get a few thoughts down about how a revised perspective might come together:

 

There was a period of time during which there were many petty kings all fighting and vying for dominance.   The Barrow Kings had already apparently made themselves into fairly major powers (calling themselves kings of the FM).   There were also the KoW who seemed to be seeking dominance, beating giants and wargs in very ancient history, and then achieving major gains when they overtook the Barrow Kings, marrying the Barrow King's daughter.

 

To pause a moment, I think it could be possible that this is where part of the NK myth originates from-- that this depicts the King of Winter taking his "corpse queen" to wife.....and perhaps marries necromancy and ice, in terms of magical power?   (And it does look perhaps like the Barrow Kings might have had some sorcery going on according to a small aside (perhaps totally mythic) in the WOIAF).

 

Whatever the source, I think it might be the case that the KoW developed their ice magic, using it as Valyria had used fire-- to consolidate power and keep threats to that power out.   I think the Wall might be a big part of this consolidation.   It contains and delineates the most profitable part of the kingdom, and it also would serve to keep out CotF and other magical factions that might be able to put up a greater fight than non-magical subjects, especially when you consider the surveillance and information powers of skinchangers and greenseers.

 

And what if the building of said Wall wasn't done by totally consenting parties collaborating happily, but instead as an act of thralldom/ slavery, whether by chains, or sorcery or will-binding horns (such as the one allegedly "waking giants")?  

 

Maybe these initiated elite even transform themselves into something like immortal gods or something. Maybe these KoW/ Others actually do a really good job of keeping the North safe from potential enemies and invaders for good while.   There's even some ancient figures who bear an interesting possible resemblance to Others that are remembered as heroes (Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield).   

 

So what if time goes by and the magic becomes abused or compromised.       For example, what if a break within the KoW clan occurs.   Maybe it's a bastard brother making a challenge for the crown, or an idealogical difference, or something like that.   Point being, what if those with this sort of magic turn on each other?   Would something like that cause something like an ice Doom?   For example, we know the KoW and the Red Kings (the bastard-obsessed Boltons) begin their long feud during the Long Night (allegedly).   Any chance the LN might have something to do with a major civil war between two powers with access to dark magics?

 

What if this was a turning point for one of the Starks to trump their enemy by making an appeal beyond the Wall to the CotF and other old god allies (like Joramun)?   What if this is the point that the Starks adopt the old gods, become CotF allies, put an end to the dark ice magics, entering into a kind of agreement, rebranding themselves as "House Stark, founded by BtB after the LN (even though it seems really obvious the KoW predate the LN)"?

 

 

Anyway, I'm not wed to this, but figured I'd toss it out. 

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The line there must always be a Stark in Winterfell has always had me wondering... There hasn't been a Stark in Winterfell for quite some time so I wonder if it effecting anything?

 

Still I don't think it has any direct correlation between the Others and the Starks since the Others were moving long before that happened. I do feel what we know about the Others is wrong and they are far more something than they seem.

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I'm glad you started this, LM!    I'm interested to see where this goes.

 

As is probably already clear, I'm really skeptical of the idea that the Wall was originally to protect against the Others.   I'm also hugely skeptical of the Wall's having the magics of the CotF (or their having helped with construction).   The CotF are simply not architects or builders.   They seem to be credited for assisting the apparent father of architecture in this world (BtB), but I think we should sort of side eye those claims because building is just not something we ever have evidence of outside of these legends (if anything, they carve space, but not aggregate to create it).   

 

I think instead it could turn out that the Wall was built by Kings of Winter as a containment boundary for their kingdom (the Neck already provides a natural impenetrable boundary to the South), as well as defense against the CotF and their human allies (which the KoW seemed to be in opposition to, starting with our pal Brandon of the Bloody Blade, who slaughtered them en masse).

 

 

I know I'm going to need to offer more support and rationale for this, but I thought it might be useful to just get a few thoughts down about how a revised perspective might come together:

 

There was a period of time during which there were many petty kings all fighting and vying for dominance.   The Barrow Kings had already apparently made themselves into fairly major powers (calling themselves kings of the FM).   There were also the KoW who seemed to be seeking dominance, beating giants and wargs in very ancient history, and then achieving major gains when they overtook the Barrow Kings, marrying the Barrow King's daughter.

 

To pause a moment, I think it could be possible that this is where part of the NK myth originates from-- that this depicts the King of Winter taking his "corpse queen" to wife.....and perhaps marries necromancy and ice, in terms of magical power?   (And it does look perhaps like the Barrow Kings might have had some sorcery going on according to a small aside (perhaps totally mythic) in the WOIAF).

 

Whatever the source, I think it might be the case that the KoW developed their ice magic, using it as Valyria had used fire-- to consolidate power and keep threats to that power out.   I think the Wall might be a big part of this consolidation.   It contains and delineates the most profitable part of the kingdom, and it also would serve to keep out CotF and other magical factions that might be able to put up a greater fight than non-magical subjects, especially when you consider the surveillance and information powers of skinchangers and greenseers.

 

And what if the building of said Wall wasn't done by totally consenting parties collaborating happily, but instead as an act of thralldom/ slavery, whether by chains, or sorcery or will-binding horns (such as the one allegedly "waking giants")?  

 

Maybe these initiated elite even transform themselves into something like immortal gods or something. Maybe these KoW/ Others actually do a really good job of keeping the North safe from potential enemies and invaders for good while.   There's even some ancient figures who bear an interesting possible resemblance to Others that are remembered as heroes (Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield).   

 

So what if time goes by and the magic becomes abused or compromised.       For example, what if a break within the KoW clan occurs.   Maybe it's a bastard brother making a challenge for the crown, or an idealogical difference, or something like that.   Point being, what if those with this sort of magic turn on each other?   Would something like that cause something like an ice Doom?   For example, we know the KoW and the Red Kings (the bastard-obsessed Boltons) begin their long feud during the Long Night (allegedly).   Any chance the LN might have something to do with a major civil war between two powers with access to dark magics?

 

What if this was a turning point for one of the Starks to trump their enemy by making an appeal beyond the Wall to the CotF and other old god allies (like Joramun)?   What if this is the point that the Starks adopt the old gods, become CotF allies, put an end to the dark ice magics, entering into a kind of agreement, rebranding themselves as "House Stark, founded by BtB after the LN (even though it seems really obvious the KoW predate the LN)"?

 

 

Anyway, I'm not wed to this, but figured I'd toss it out. 

 

I think it has at the least merit for thought.  Without going into the micro details yet, I'm curious if there's a correlation to seasons and elements.  Ice = Winter; Fire = Summer, Earth = Autumn, Water = Spring.  Each one has it's own locale where the magic is strongest as well.  Valyria for Fire and Summer, Land of Always Winter for Ice, Westeros south of the Neck for Autumn and maybe the areas of the Rhoynar for Spring?  Anyway, my thought was sort of an extension of your idea that the magics may have been combined through a joining or consolidation.  As well though, the battles of Valyria and the Rhoynar are vague but still existent and the history of the Long Night and that suggests that the elements have battled it out before, though it's not really framed that way in the histories.

 

I can totally see where some of the members of each element who believed in and practiced the magics associated would be curious if and when exposed to another person of another element, say for example a CoTF and an Other or a Valyrian and an CoTF or a Valyrian and a Rhoynar or a Rhoynar and an Other.  It seems Bloodraven is a prime example of this possibility of either a joining of the elements or even a corruption of such as you put it.  When we look at some of the standalone theories, such as Jon being a combination of Ice and Fire and thusly conclude that he may be the central figure in the series, I don't think it's wrong to think that, but it could be MORE than that, or maybe even something else entirely.  To illustrate my meaning: Bloodraven seems to have practiced in sorcery (via his Blackwood lineage) before arriving at the Wall.  Then at some point he comes into contact with the CoTF and again at some point he disappears during a ranging.  It seems that he's the current greenseer chief, or at least has a high standing among the greenseers.  So already we have a cross-mixing of two 'likely' different forms of magics in one person, as BR looks to be a combination of Earth and Fire; but is it blood related or is the Earth element learned?  Does the Blackwood blood relate to the CoTF as it relates to their magics or sorcery?  If it does then I suppose BR carried the Fire gene, but the point I'm trying to make is that there is an example of this cross-mixing already.

 

I'm wondering if at some point the Targaryens that were practicing in sorcery and believed in various prophecies started investigating and by extension then dabbling into these other elements' magics?  It makes one wonder if BR was deliberately seeking out the CoTF at some point (because it doesn't necessarily look like he was trying to before being sent to the Wall). 

 

What is curious though, is it seems that in the histories, the Valyrian descendants have been the ones combining or dabbling into the other elements' magics rather than members of those other elements seeking to combine or mix with another.  The CoTF generally kept to themselves, though we still can't rule out their mixing with Others.  The Others seem to be their own unique being, so it seems on the surface that their magics are also more "pure".

 

Both the Rhoynar and the CoTF have an association with the Water element so I'm curious if maybe there's a link to the two, or if they had combined/joined their magics perhaps long before the rise of Valyria, perhaps during the proto-Valyrian period.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure I have like an ultimate theory on any of this, just that it seems present in a very subtle way, but present nonetheless and I'm curious if this might ultimately have reasoning behind the title of the Saga itself?

 

This does leave Shadow Magic and Blood magic as the sort of outliers, as they doesn't strictly follow to be associated with a single element, perhaps these are the bridges between any one magic and another?  The shadow magic of MMD combined with some sort of Fire magic of Dany is a good example.  Were they mutually exclusive events or did one sort of act to enable another?

 

I'm sorry to get off on a magic tangent in a Stark/Winter history thread.

 

I suppose on topic: I think you may be on the right track as far as a consolidation that was occurring in the North relating to the Barrow Kings and Kings of Winter.  This could be one of the first examples of Ice magics getting corrupted which you eluded to via necromancy.  Would we call it more of a blood magic or shadow magic?  Where does necromancy fall in?   :)

 

The point that seems cloudy is the Kings of Winter's Ice magic.  Did they practice it before their battle with the Barrow Kings?  Are we inferring then that the Barrow Kings are the ones whose magics were specialized with the dead or necromancy as you put it?  If that's true then it seems that the tale would be correct in that the Stark that took the Barrow King's Daughter to wife was corrupted by her and practicing some dark magic on the wall that finally started reaching his kin's ears.  Obviously if they had ultimately been the victors in a Barrow King war, I could see the brother Stark seriously opposing what I suppose would be a continued practice of these darker magics, which resulted in the NK being deposed, the record stricken, etc.  It makes complete sense.  It also leaves the possibility open that the Wife either lived (she may have been some sort of undead, how creepy is that?) or bore a child as a result of these dark magics and either retreated/fled to the LOAW.  That's speculation of course, but it seems to me there has to be a tie to that event and the Others' existence, otherwise, how did they 'return' as it will after being defeated?  Or is it more the case that she or only a few escaped and fled and bade their time?  It seems the latter because of Craster's influence.  We don't even really know what "Gods" he kept as they don't seem to be the gods of the First Men, the Old Gods.

 

I do have a strong suspicion that the Starks are related to the Others, not necessarily blood related but related as in how they came about as a power, they have a related past or connection.  One thing that sort of sticks out to me is if the Others are some sort of corrupted Ice magic, the root would seem to be in the necromancy likely practiced by the Barrow Kings.  Would we equate this to Beric's multiple lives as him being a sort of corrupted Fire magic?  He was dead afterall.  If the answer is no then it seems that we have to kind of wonder about the Others being a corrupted Ice magic as well.  

 

Now my head hurts.

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        THE FIRST FIRST MEN MIGRATION across the arm of Vale (as mentioned at least in the Stormlands section of AWOIAF, mentioning the Narrow sea having possibly been an inland fresh water sea) under the leadership of The First King/Barrow Kings and war with the Children of the Forest. The Northern lands unbroken at this time stretched south to the vale where they had entered and the Riverlands. Possibly even the Westerlands and the Casterlys and the Hightowers of Old Town. The Iron Islanders who had no boats at the time did not find Islands, but lands connected to the main land till the breaking had separated them from the main lands and left nothing but a few islands. Making the North truly larger than the other realms combined, tho later only a third their size. 

 

        THE PACT UPON THE GODS EYE & ORDER OF THE GREEN MEN & GARTH THE GREEN. Garth i believe was born from the union of Men and the children as per the pacts many agreements. Garth having green skin and horns just like that of the Green men of the Gods Eye. 

 

        THE SECOND FIRST MEN MIGRATION & THE AGE OF HEROS. across the arm of Dorne led by other men who found Garth the green already in the lands, and the Hightower already standing. (I dont know what caused they're flight but it may be Old Ghis or Valyria) Garth breeds with many first men women sowing the seeds for many of the houses of the Reach and 2 outside of the Reach and starting the Age of Heros. The Starks of Winterfell and the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.  (House Crane is said to be able to warg into Cranes so this is likely why house Stark has Warging abilities). House Stark forms from Brandon the Bloody Blade (who killed many Children of the Forest and Giants) who is possibly father to Brandon the Builder, that or they are one and the same. Lann (fathered upon Florys the Fox or Rowan Gold Tree by an Andal Adventurer) goes east to take Castemere from the Casterlys. House Dayne (with some sort of connection to Valyria) follows a falling star to where it crashes to build starfall and eventually a Sword as strong and sharp as valyrian steel. Mean while in the east, the Bloodstone Emperor (Red) betrays his sister and begins worshiping a fallen stone. Taking a tiger woman to wife and enslaving his people. His father was the Opal Emperor while his betrayed sister was the Amethyst Empress (Amethyst is purple while Opal is multi colored but Black Opal looks the colors of the Night Sky). Durran Gods Grief builds Storms End with the help of Brandon the Builder possibly, that or children? 7th time his castle survives the wrath of the gods (he wed the daughter of the Sea god and the goddess of the Wind Elenei. Sounds kinda like the Drowned god and the Storm god. Also, 7 storms maybe what inspired the Andal Faith and may be the storms that broke the arm of Dorne and such.) Time of Adara and the Ice Dragon. Her Uncles armies attired in the Green of Garth in the South while the Army in the North attired in Black and Orange, possibly Asshai or Valyria, tho possibly the Dustins as the sigil has a Black crown against Black.

 

        BREAKING OF THE ARM OF DORNE & THE VALE, FLOODING OF THE NECK & THE LONG NIGHT. The Long Night begins after the Breaking of Westeros. Azor Ahai makes the sword of heros after tempering it through his wifes heart. The Last Hero travels in search of the children with the help of 12 companions, a dog, a horse, and a dragon steel sword. He finds the children it is believed for after the Men of the Nights Watch band together against the Others (likely this means simply that the Order of the Nights Watch is formed). Brandon the Builder builds the Wall with the aid of the Children of the Forest. The 13th Lord Commander becomes the Nights King and serves for 13 years with his Corpse bride after seeing her North of the Wall. They enslave the men of the watch and are later stopped by Brandon the Breaker and Joramun, King beyond the Wall. The Night's King supposedly named Brandon and brother to Brandon the Breaker. His Corpse Bride supposedly a daughter to the Dustin King, descendants of the Barrow Kings though forced to take a new name due to curse upon the Tomb of The Barrow King. Likely placed there by the Starks or Children of the Forest. Curse said to turn any pretender to the title of First King turn corpse like in appearance. (Brandon the Bloody Blade, The Dayne who made Dawn, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero, Brandon the Builder, and the Night's King allllll likely the same guy. This due to the fact that him and Brandon the Breaker are only half brothers. As is our current 3 heads of the Dragon. Tyrion= son of Aerys and Joanna, Jon= Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Dany= Rhaegar and Ashara. Ill get back to that.

 

       ANDAL INVASION & END OF THE AGE OF HEROS. About 2300 to 2000 years ago after the fall out of the Long Night, Ser Artys Arryn/ the Winged Night lands in the Vale fleeing the onslaught of the Valyrian expansion. Displaces the Royces in the Vale and the Andals begin to spread. Theon Stark fights the Andals after the Boltons Bend a Knee and join sides. Theon first King to switch from the King of Winter to King in the North. Jon Stark builds Wolfs Den after to secure the North. Many houses in the South fall to the Andals whose invasion stopped about 1700 years ago after the scouring of Lorath. With the Andals come the Faith of the Seven and at some unknown time the Maesters out of Old Town, also comes the Dragon slayers of the Andal Knights, with possible aid of the Septons or Maesters. Maesters accused in current stories of killing the Targaryen Dragons during the Dance. Valyria turns her attention to the Rhoynar and by 1000 years ago the Rhoynish invasion of Dorne takes place.

 

       Much of the history from here connects to the well known and documented history of current events. 

 

       Now a note on the 3 heads of the dragon theory. The prince that was promised would be born from the lines of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen. The prophecy doesnt say from the union of the two, it simply says the lines of the two siblings. Aerys has Tyrion with Joanna which is a well known theory and makes sense with dating and logic. Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna was a lil harder for people to fully take tho it was the most popular theory. For a reason. It makes the most sense given allll the information given. Jon being born around the sack of K.L. rules out any other father as Ned is too Honorable and his brother died too early the year before for it to be him. (Tho i did like that theory). Dany was the trickier person to figure out. Aerys and Rhaella supposedly have Rheagar and then its yearsss before they have another attempt. Rhaegar is born the same year that Rhaella wed Aerys and its quite possible Rhaegar isnt Aery's kid despite looking like the perfect Targaryen. Aerys only has Tyrion and Viserys, a deformed kid in which he mistakenly mocks Tywin for.   ;) Rhaegar is the son of Rhaella and Ser Bonifer Hasty. Rhaella and Aerys attempt to have kids numerous times who all are stillborn and die shortly after. Viserys is the only son born of their union and he's sickly and weak. Rhaella's last attempt results in a still birth that kills her and the incident is played off as Ashara who secretly has Rhaegars other kid. Rhaegar had been wooing Ashara at the Tourney of Harrenhal but ended up falling for Lyanna instead due to meddling of Howland after visiting the Gods Eye and Garths fellow Green Men. Ashara is dishonored by these events, tho Barastan cant do anything because its his future king, that or Barastan didnt know who had upset and dishonored her.

 

       I have a couple other theories, namely about house Martell and what their play for power is backed behind.

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I'm glad you started this, LM!    I'm interested to see where this goes.

As is probably already clear, I'm really skeptical of the idea that the Wall was originally to protect against the Others.   I'm also hugely skeptical of the Wall's having the magics of the CotF (or their having helped with construction).   The CotF are simply not architects or builders.   They seem to be credited for assisting the apparent father of architecture in this world (BtB), but I think we should sort of side eye those claims because building is just not something we ever have evidence of outside of these legends (if anything, they carve space, but not aggregate to create it).   
 
I think instead it could turn out that the Wall was built by Kings of Winter as a containment boundary for their kingdom (the Neck already provides a natural impenetrable boundary to the South), as well as defense against the CotF and their human allies (which the KoW seemed to be in opposition to, starting with our pal Brandon of the Bloody Blade, who slaughtered them en masse).
 
 
I know I'm going to need to offer more support and rationale for this, but I thought it might be useful to just get a few thoughts down about how a revised perspective might come together:
 
There was a period of time during which there were many petty kings all fighting and vying for dominance.   The Barrow Kings had already apparently made themselves into fairly major powers (calling themselves kings of the FM).   There were also the KoW who seemed to be seeking dominance, beating giants and wargs in very ancient history, and then achieving major gains when they overtook the Barrow Kings, marrying the Barrow King's daughter.
 
To pause a moment, I think it could be possible that this is where part of the NK myth originates from-- that this depicts the King of Winter taking his "corpse queen" to wife.....and perhaps marries necromancy and ice, in terms of magical power?   (And it does look perhaps like the Barrow Kings might have had some sorcery going on according to a small aside (perhaps totally mythic) in the WOIAF).
 
Whatever the source, I think it might be the case that the KoW developed their ice magic, using it as Valyria had used fire-- to consolidate power and keep threats to that power out.   I think the Wall might be a big part of this consolidation.   It contains and delineates the most profitable part of the kingdom, and it also would serve to keep out CotF and other magical factions that might be able to put up a greater fight than non-magical subjects, especially when you consider the surveillance and information powers of skinchangers and greenseers.
 
And what if the building of said Wall wasn't done by totally consenting parties collaborating happily, but instead as an act of thralldom/ slavery, whether by chains, or sorcery or will-binding horns (such as the one allegedly "waking giants")?  
 
Maybe these initiated elite even transform themselves into something like immortal gods or something. Maybe these KoW/ Others actually do a really good job of keeping the North safe from potential enemies and invaders for good while.   There's even some ancient figures who bear an interesting possible resemblance to Others that are remembered as heroes (Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield).   
 
So what if time goes by and the magic becomes abused or compromised.       For example, what if a break within the KoW clan occurs.   Maybe it's a bastard brother making a challenge for the crown, or an idealogical difference, or something like that.   Point being, what if those with this sort of magic turn on each other?   Would something like that cause something like an ice Doom?   For example, we know the KoW and the Red Kings (the bastard-obsessed Boltons) begin their long feud during the Long Night (allegedly).   Any chance the LN might have something to do with a major civil war between two powers with access to dark magics?
 
What if this was a turning point for one of the Starks to trump their enemy by making an appeal beyond the Wall to the CotF and other old god allies (like Joramun)?   What if this is the point that the Starks adopt the old gods, become CotF allies, put an end to the dark ice magics, entering into a kind of agreement, rebranding themselves as "House Stark, founded by BtB after the LN (even though it seems really obvious the KoW predate the LN)"?
 
 
Anyway, I'm not wed to this, but figured I'd toss it out.


Thanks bumps, me too!

I am also skeptical of the prevailing history of the wall. But I am torn whether it was built by the KoW or the Others themselves. Given the rampaging nature of the FM, I wonder if the Others built the wall to keep the FM out of the far north, not the other way around.

Was the neck a southron boundary for the FM in the north pre-Andal invasion? I though the neck was made by the CoTF at the time of the Andal invasion. I'd be very curious to see what the neck looked like before the COTF tried to separate the north from the south. But if the neck was open pre LN, it could explain why the others built the wall as FM flowed north.

This could also explain why the Blackwoods once claimed dominion over the Wolfswood. If the neck was open, the Blackwoods could have controlled from present day Winterfell down to Raventree Hall.

As for the petty northern kingdoms, I have to think this set up existed before and after the LN, do you think there were KoWs before the Starks or are they the first KoWs? We know Stark/Bolton emnity goes back to the Long Night so there were Red Kings back then. The Barrow Kings as you note were there too and we know about the Warg King and his COTF allies, query whether he is a pre or post LN figure?

FWIW, I tend to think Kings of Winter became Kings in the North once the Red Kings knelt resulting in the consolidation of the North. This could explain the name change, sort of like William the conquerer going from Duke to King of England.

I am torn over whether the Barrow Kings are related to NKs corpse bride. It could be that NK was just a despised figure as was his wife, sort of like how Lord Darkling and "The Lace Serpent" became so hated in their time. This could be GRRM noting how women are viewed in history, Lady Godiva as a real world example or perhaps a nod to how Cersei will be remembered.

But, if the corpse bride was a barrow king, this could have been part of the consolidation of the north... Perhaps the NK made a "deal with the devil" (the Others) to advance that consolidation.

Which is where I think things get real interesting, I think the KoWs have used, or allied with the Others at various points in time. I actually wonder if there was once a lot of non violent contact between the Others and humans... Did they teach each other things? Could they interbreed? Did men learn ice Magic from the Others or perhaps learn ice magic and create the Others?

So if the KoW built the Wall, where did they get the technology? The Others? Or did they develop a form of Ice Magic overtime and create both Others and the Wall.

When I picture the pre LN north, I see lots of petty kingdoms and lots of magic, CoTF, Giants and Others all co-existing through times of war and peace. Eventually a major war breaks out pitting Others vs FM. I lean toward the Others building the wall but FM adding to it and casting magic wards and charms after the LN. I wonder if a seasonal anomaly gave the Others a big leg up in the War before the battle for the Dawn changed the tide of the war.

The Wall makes a great strategic point for the Battle, the Others want to hold it because men have physical difficulties climbing it. Men want it, because they can then enchant it and keep the Others to the North... Maybe that's how the CoTF helped the LH, they didn't give him a weapon, they taught him how to ward the Wall and thereby protect south of it.

I wonder what that ward cost? Blood sacrifice? Kings blood? Giants blood?

I've got some other thoughts to chime in on too...
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I would go with a Pact between the Last Hero and the Others (with or without the CotF). The blood used was from the captives of the Stark unification wars both side of the Wall. Tormund calls the captives given to Jon "Your blood price"; I think this is a reference to the sacrifices requested by the Starks at the time the Wall was being raised; the Wildlings are descendants from First Men that refused to kneel and pay the blood price, so they stayed beyond the Wall.


One does have to wonder why some FM were north of the wall and Others south... I think this supports the idea that all these races co-existed for a time before the LN.

I often wonder what was the relation between BTB and the LH. Which one, if either was the First Stark, are they the same person or different?

One rough idea I'm mulling is that BTB was an Other or part Other or at least a human with a close relationship to them, perhaps some sort of ice Mage. The LH was his son and a traitor to the Others if he was of their kind or at least their strongest foe.
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If Targaryens are blood of the dragon (fire) then there would be a certain poetic symmetry if Starks have blood of the Others (ice), which, if the theories prove correct, would then produce the Song of Ice and Fire in one character.


Fully agree. What's interesting to consider is where do ice/fire have similarities and when are they different. For instance both fire and ice can burn but ice preserves while fire consumes. So did something survive in Ice that died out in Fire?

Some suggest the Valyrians literally crossed bloodlines w dragons... Why not the same w Starks and Others?
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One does have to wonder why some FM were north of the wall and Others south... I think this supports the idea that all these races co-existed for a time before the LN.

I often wonder what was the relation between BTB and the LH. Which one, if either was the First Stark, are they the same person or different?

One rough idea I'm mulling is that BTB was an Other or part Other or at least a human with a close relationship to them, perhaps some sort of ice Mage. The LH was his son and a traitor to the Others if he was of their kind or at least their strongest foe.

There is the possibility that the Others didn't exist before the LN, but are the result of a transformation to survive the LN. FM greenseers could have used power to adapt their people. Old Nan says: "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,".

 

BTB is the character that looks the most to be an amalgamation of different persons. Raising Storm's End when he was a boy, then Winterfell and the Wall. But is is still possible for BTB, LH and the 13th LC to be the same person (specially if he was a semi-wight like CH, a CoTF/FM hybrid, or a Human/Other hybrid).

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Some suggest the Valyrians literally crossed bloodlines w dragons... Why not the same w Starks and Others?

 

 

3) The Night King was a Stark according to Old Nan

 

According to Old Nan, it is possible for humans to fall in love with the others and have children with them.

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