Rethinking Northern History and Relations Between Starks and the Others

[Valinhall]

A lot of people think that there's a sort of dichotomy between the dragons and Others. Is t therefore possible that the Others were once used by the Starks the same way the Targaryens used dragons?

[Craster'sFavouriteSon]

A lot of people think that there's a sort of dichotomy between the dragons and Others. Is t therefore possible that the Others were once used by the Starks the same way the Targaryens used dragons?

I'm of the belief that this is along the lines of what Bloodraven and the CotF are attempting to do, along with harnessing Bran's powers. 

[Curled Finger]

This is interesting and sheds light on the curious ancestry of the Boltons, or Red Kings.    (Rivalry didn't adequately explain Roose's part in orchestrating The Red Wedding.)    The Red Kings surely had some sort of magic that was substantial enough to hold off The Starks and Barrow Kings for some time.   These ideas are fascinating.   What if there were waves of First Men?  Let's say the necromancing Barrow Kings established their dominion first.   Then the Red Kings came with their skin changing.  These houses war with each other and still more FM come to settle.    Or is it possible they all came at the same time, that the lands each settled on were reservoirs of various power that each family tapped into?   Some great national truce comes to pass to end the Long Night and Others invasions.   The First Men who opt to stay north of the wall are in fact all considered sacrifices to those south of the wall?   This is very good stuff here.    I'm just not convinced The Others are any sort of good.   The only thing I can attribute to The Others possibly not being the dread is that the COTF also chose to stay north of the wall.   With them???   Surviving humanity sure went lot a lot of trouble to get The Others to go away.    The Wildlings are eager to get south of the Wall now.  I can see the Starks being some sort of talisman or curse trustee or good faith payment for the pact, but they are beloved by the majority of their ancient neighbors.   That makes it difficult for me to equate the Starks with The Others.      

[RatCook]

The link between the Targs and 'fire magic', i.e. dragons, Valyria etc, is indisputable.

The Starks also, are linked to magic. It is tempting to associate them with 'ice magic' (Winterfell, 'winter is coming', Ice, etc), and therefore with the Others.

It is important, however, that we make a distinction between so-called ice magic - the apparent magic of the Others, of which we actually have very minimal textual insight in to, and the magic of the Children of the Forest and the First Men. Magic associated with the Old Gods, which seems to encompass Weirwoods, Greenseers and Skinchanging. I believe this magic could be credibly described as 'earth magic'. I believe that this magic become easily confused with 'ice magic' because it now exists almost exclusively in the North, which just so happens to be cold. But we must remind ourselves that before the arrival of the Andals, the Old Gods were a force throughout all of Westeros.

That the Starks have magical associations is apparent, and from the text it would seem that their 'magical abilities' are actually more in keeping with 'earth magic', i.e. the magic of the Old Gods.

So no, I don't think that the Starks are in any way magically aligned or elementally associated with the Others, and that any links between them are related to the fact that they fought once-upon-a-time. Even if, perhaps, one Stark became the Night's King, and wedded an Other, this does not implicate all Starks in 'ice magic'.

This logic however, upsets the satisfying notion of the Starks and Targaryens as being elementally and magically opposite and complementary, so make of it what you will.

[Lord Martin]

This is interesting and sheds light on the curious ancestry of the Boltons, or Red Kings.    (Rivalry didn't adequately explain Roose's part in orchestrating The Red Wedding.)    The Red Kings surely had some sort of magic that was substantial enough to hold off The Starks and Barrow Kings for some time.   These ideas are fascinating.   What if there were waves of First Men?  Let's say the necromancing Barrow Kings established their dominion first.   Then the Red Kings came with their skin changing.  These houses war with each other and still more FM come to settle.    Or is it possible they all came at the same time, that the lands each settled on were reservoirs of various power that each family tapped into?   Some great national truce comes to pass to end the Long Night and Others invasions.   The First Men who opt to stay north of the wall are in fact all considered sacrifices to those south of the wall?   This is very good stuff here.    I'm just not convinced The Others are any sort of good.   The only thing I can attribute to The Others possibly not being the dread is that the COTF also chose to stay north of the wall.   With them???   Surviving humanity sure went lot a lot of trouble to get The Others to go away.    The Wildlings are eager to get south of the Wall now.  I can see the Starks being some sort of talisman or curse trustee or good faith payment for the pact, but they are beloved by the majority of their ancient neighbors.   That makes it difficult for me to equate the Starks with The Others.      

 

Aren't the Bolton's so fascinating?  Hopefully butterbumps! can weigh in here as she has some great thoughts about the Boltons.

 

Just a few random ideas I'll throw out here:

 

Both the Boltons and the Others are often identified by their blue eyes, Boltons' are "queerly pale" and the Others are known for eyes so blue they seem to burn.  

 

We've never seen any female Boltons or Others (except potentially the NK's corpse queen - who we've never "seen").  Along those lines, Bolton reproduction seems almost as mysterious as Other reproduction... have any females ever been born to House Bolton?  Also, all the women who have birthed Boltons are dead...

 

The Others are the Stark's ancient rival.. the Boltons are too...

 

In the World Book we are provided a recent Stark family tree... note they marry with almost every northern house... except one... House Bolton of course.  

 

What does it all mean?

 

Again, pure speculation here... but I have to think that House Bolton and Stark were kin at one time.. and I wouldn't be surprised if it was during the Long Night or close thereto.  The World Book tells us that Stark/Bolton enmity began during the Long Night...

 

Given what we know about Roose's actions in the WOT5k, could it be that one house betrayed the other during the wars against the Others???

 

Here's something fun from the World book.  There was one occasion when House Stark allied with House Bolton and it was to repel the Andal invasion along the eastern shores of the north.  That Stark?  THEON STARK... I found that amusing at the least... history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.  

[Lord Martin]

-snip-

 

I think instead it could turn out that the Wall was built by Kings of Winter as a containment boundary for their kingdom (the Neck already provides a natural impenetrable boundary to the South), as well as defense against the CotF and their human allies (which the KoW seemed to be in opposition to, starting with our pal Brandon of the Bloody Blade, who slaughtered them en masse).

 

 

I know I'm going to need to offer more support and rationale for this, but I thought it might be useful to just get a few thoughts down about how a revised perspective might come together:

 

There was a period of time during which there were many petty kings all fighting and vying for dominance.   The Barrow Kings had already apparently made themselves into fairly major powers (calling themselves kings of the FM).   There were also the KoW who seemed to be seeking dominance, beating giants and wargs in very ancient history, and then achieving major gains when they overtook the Barrow Kings, marrying the Barrow King's daughter.

 

-snip-

 

Whatever the source, I think it might be the case that the KoW developed their ice magic, using it as Valyria had used fire-- to consolidate power and keep threats to that power out.   I think the Wall might be a big part of this consolidation.   It contains and delineates the most profitable part of the kingdom, and it also would serve to keep out CotF and other magical factions that might be able to put up a greater fight than non-magical subjects, especially when you consider the surveillance and information powers of skinchangers and greenseers.

 

And what if the building of said Wall wasn't done by totally consenting parties collaborating happily, but instead as an act of thralldom/ slavery, whether by chains, or sorcery or will-binding horns (such as the one allegedly "waking giants")?  

 

Maybe these initiated elite even transform themselves into something like immortal gods or something. Maybe these KoW/ Others actually do a really good job of keeping the North safe from potential enemies and invaders for good while.   There's even some ancient figures who bear an interesting possible resemblance to Others that are remembered as heroes (Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield).   

 

So what if time goes by and the magic becomes abused or compromised.       For example, what if a break within the KoW clan occurs.   Maybe it's a bastard brother making a challenge for the crown, or an idealogical difference, or something like that.   Point being, what if those with this sort of magic turn on each other?   Would something like that cause something like an ice Doom?   For example, we know the KoW and the Red Kings (the bastard-obsessed Boltons) begin their long feud during the Long Night (allegedly).   Any chance the LN might have something to do with a major civil war between two powers with access to dark magics?

 

What if this was a turning point for one of the Starks to trump their enemy by making an appeal beyond the Wall to the CotF and other old god allies (like Joramun)?   What if this is the point that the Starks adopt the old gods, become CotF allies, put an end to the dark ice magics, entering into a kind of agreement, rebranding themselves as "House Stark, founded by BtB after the LN (even though it seems really obvious the KoW predate the LN)"?

 

 

Anyway, I'm not wed to this, but figured I'd toss it out. 

 

Despite my few quibbles, I like where a lot of this could go...

 

I noted this in the world book:

 

 

Ancient ballads, amongst the oldest to be found in the archives of the Citadel of Oldtown, tell of how one King of Winter drove the giants from the North, whilst another felled the skinchanger Gaven Greywolf and his kin in “the savage War of the Wolves,” but we have only the word of singers that such kings and such battles ever existed.

 

. . . 

 

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night’s Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King’s last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

 

 

So separate sources in both Old Town and the Nightfort seem to confirm similar accounts of Starks doing battle with wars or skin changers.  

 

I know when modern scholars look for historical truth, they prefer to have the same version of events from separate independent sources (rather than ones that rely on each other).  This would seem to serve that purpose here.  

 

Thus I am inclined to accredit the bit about driving the giants from the North.  I assume this means beyond the wall rather than south of the neck.  Thus the KoWs certainly have used the wall to their advantage.

 

 

And I like where you are going with the use of ice magic as a parallel to Valyrian.  So do you think there was at some point in time some sort of ice mage types in the North?  It really makes sense doesn't it?  

 

To me this begs the essential question, what was the relationship between these KoWs w/ ice magic powers and the Others?  Am I wrong to think there are only so many options:

 

1.  The Others were another race that taught ice magic to some FM.

 

2.  The FM interbred w/ the Others resulting in humans w/ magical abilities.

 

3.  The FM learned ice magic on their own (perhaps a bastardized version?)

 

4.  The FM learned ice magic and created the Others (intentionally or accidentally).

 

 

Though your bit about infighting among those using ice magic made me think of a cracked pot theory.  What if the in fighting created the "Ice Doom" resulting in the Others... a personified cataclysm.  But recall Aemon, "Fire consumes while Ice preserves."  So perhaps the "Ice Doom" served to protect humanity by galvanizing it against a common foe rather than destroying it a-la Valyria?  Its a bit fanfic... sorry... thinking outloud here.

 

And I love the call out to the "bastard obsessed Boltons."  I wonder where that house branched off from the KoW, b/c I certainly think they did.  

[Jasta11]

My primary objection to the Wall not being built to ward against the Others is, why build it then?

 

As Mormont points out in-story, you don't build a wall of ice several hundred feet tall and a good hundred kilometers across just to stop some raiders from dragging women away. Nor do you entrust the border of your kingdom (the Kings of Winter's in this case) to a neutral organisation that used to be thousands strong. And since Martin heavily hints that poweful magics went into building the wall (blood sacrifices?), the price in ressources seems too great to be just used a border against the Children, rebellious humans, or both. I figure it has to be about some greater threat.

[Tucu]

My primary objection to the Wall not being built to ward against the Others is, why build it then?

 

As Mormont points out in-story, you don't build a wall of ice several hundred feet tall and a good hundred kilometers across just to stop some raiders from dragging women away. Nor do you entrust the border of your kingdom (the Kings of Winter's in this case) to a neutral organisation that used to be thousands strong. And since Martin heavily hints that poweful magics went into building the wall (blood sacrifices?), the price in ressources seems too great to be just used a border against the Children, rebellious humans, or both. I figure it has to be about some greater threat.

It could be a border against human expansion with Starks as its guardians. Draws a big line marking the end of the world of men.

The size could be not by design, but by accumulation of magic (blood sacrifices). Think of the weirwood trees that keep growing as long as they are fed (for example the giant one in WhiteTree)

[Lord Martin]

Why not a Wall to keep out Giants and COTF?  

 

I wonder if the Blackgate could have a role here... who built it and why?

[Ramsay Gimp]

I really like the Ice-Valyria/Kings of Winter theory about the origins of the Others, but how does the Long Night fit in? Who caused it, if anyone? And was it an intentional act, or the result of magic gone wrong like Valyria's Doom? 

[butterbumps!]

snip

 

On the Blackwoods:   Did they control a contiguous swath of land, or were they just simply displaced from the Wolfswood to Raventree?   I'd thought it was displacement, but I could be mistaken.

 

On the Others vs KoW:  Well, I'm kind of the mind that the Others = KoW in some capacity.  Perhaps either KoW transformed by magic, or the magically extracted shadows of the KoW (like what Shadowbinders can do), or some other sort of direct creation of the KoW or their priests.   

 

As such, I think they might be a singular thing-- that is, I think the KoW and the Others might be inherently part of the same political machine.    idk that the Neck would need to be open from the South to justify the idea of the KoW building the Wall; I think that if you consider the cold gods in opposition to the old gods, then it makes sense to seal the CotF and their allies out of the North (it seems that magical power is very scarce south of the Wall, but beyond the Wall, there's a lot more skinchangers and dedicated veneration of the old gods and so forth).

 

on the NK:  I'm not sold on the idea of this being the story of Barrow King integration either-- or, at least, the entire story.   I wonder if the NK story is functionally more like the mythic personage of BtB or Durran rather than a singular king.   Where it seems like BtB or Durran was really multiple people under the banner of "BtB/ Durran," the same might be true of the NK.   It could be a revised history of the KoW/ Others' rise and fall in a post-LN retelling, truncating the actions of multiple kings into this one villainous figure.

 

Especially after looking at some of the parallels with the Eastern tellings, where the LN is not only dark and in some cases literally cold, but typically involving political "dark ages" and deep oppression/ slavery, the NK kind of fits in with that.   He involves himself in some sort of necromancy, gaining power, then he ensorcels his men, then two supposedly opposing parties unite to bring him down.

 

 

That the Starks have magical associations is apparent, and from the text it would seem that their 'magical abilities' are actually more in keeping with 'earth magic', i.e. the magic of the Old Gods.

that's right--  we know the Starks are associated with the old gods and old gods =/= ice magic.

 

But the question is whether they have always worshipped the old gods.    I proposed that they might not have always worshipped the old gods, and that this old gods worship and warging ability we see might have been part of a pact and "rebranding" of the House post-LN.

[Lord Martin]

 

On the Blackwoods:   Did they control a contiguous swath of land, or were they just simply displaced from the Wolfswood to Raventree?   I'd thought it was displacement, but I could be mistaken.

 

It very well could be, I admit I don't know for sure.  But does North to South displacement make much sense?  If the FM crossed the arm of Dorne, their migration was south to north.  If the Blackwoods were in the Wolfswood (and I wonder if thats where the Blackwood name comes from as I don't think there is a "Black Wood" in the Riverlands)... and were then displaced, why south?   Wouldn't the lands there already be claimed?  I guess they could be gifted in exchange for fealty...

 

On the Others vs KoW:  Well, I'm kind of the mind that the Others = KoW in some capacity.  Perhaps either KoW transformed by magic, or the magically extracted shadows of the KoW (like what Shadowbinders can do), or some other sort of direct creation of the KoW or their priests.   

 

I think I'm with you here... I get the sense that by KoW you aren't talking Starks per se... but its a term for some of the FM who harnessed ice magic pre-LN?

 

As such, I think they might be a singular thing-- that is, I think the KoW and the Others might be inherently part of the same political machine.    idk that the Neck would need to be open from the South to justify the idea of the KoW building the Wall; I think that if you consider the cold gods in opposition to the old gods, then it makes sense to seal the CotF and their allies out of the North (it seems that magical power is very scarce south of the Wall, but beyond the Wall, there's a lot more skinchangers and dedicated veneration of the old gods and so forth).

 

Do you mean they built the Wall to seal the COTF and Giants south of the Wall?  If so, that may have been my misunderstanding and I'll have to think on it.  

 

If you mean the KoW/Others put up the Wall and put themselves south if it, I would find that somewhat puzzling given: 1) why put a wall between you and the heart of winter in the far north and 2) why do the Others then come from the North?  Perhaps 2 answers 1?  Do you think the KoWs rebelled or succeeded or somehow separated themselves from larger "Other" society and built the Wall to set up a boundary and defend against their former brethren?  

 

 

on the NK:  I'm not sold on the idea of this being the story of Barrow King integration either-- or, at least, the entire story.   I wonder if the NK story is functionally more like the mythic personage of BtB or Durran rather than a singular king.   Where it seems like BtB or Durran was really multiple people under the banner of "BtB/ Durran," the same might be true of the NK.   It could be a revised history of the KoW/ Others' rise and fall in a post-LN retelling, truncating the actions of multiple kings into this one villainous figure.

 

Especially after looking at some of the parallels with the Eastern tellings, where the LN is not only dark and in some cases literally cold, but typically involving political "dark ages" and deep oppression/ slavery, the NK kind of fits in with that.   He involves himself in some sort of necromancy, gaining power, then he ensorcels his men, then two supposedly opposing parties unite to bring him down.

 

That's interesting... a political reign of terror in the North perhaps it began when a KoW married a Barrow Queen?  We are also told that NK was brought down by a KoW, his brother the Stark in WF.  This could have been the end of the reign of that line of succession?

 

 

that's right--  we know the Starks are associated with the old gods and old gods =/= ice magic.

 

But the question is whether they have always worshipped the old gods.    I proposed that they might not have always worshipped the old gods, and that this old gods worship and warging ability we see might have been part of a pact and "rebranding" of the House post-LN.

 

I really like some of these ideas, especially the notion of rebranding... or perhaps a wholesale change in societal behavior.  For instance, the faith of R'Hollor is spreading like wildfyre in Essos, its even getting some traction in Westeros where all religion is gaining popularity.  Religious change and war often go hand and hand, e.g. Roman Conquest of Europe, the Crusaders, the Moorish invasion of Spain, the Conquistadors etc...

 

Could it really be that the COTF did save the day for humans during the LN and that's why they worship the old gods... its just the past previous to that that provides a twist?

[butterbumps!]

LM-- 

 

I'm in the middle of something and can't get to all of your post right now, but just to clarify, I was suggesting that the Wall might have been originally devised by ice wielders once south of the Wall to contain and solidify their Northern kingdom, as well as to keep those with other forms of magics that could threaten their power out, such as the FM and CotF who ended up North of the Wall.

 

idk if the "heart of winter" Bran saw is actually in the arctic, or if it refers to something more sinister and poetic, like Winterfell or something like that.   Which, btw, that snowstorm that's ensnaring Stannis appears to be coming out of WF right now, like an unleashing of winter or something-- Jon's even seeing snow drifts on the south side of the Wall, not from the LoAW.

 

We know there's super ancient FM settlements up beyond the Wall (ringforts are the earliest forms of "town planning," such as the one at the Fist).   If ice magic does in fact originate from further up by the Lands of Always Winter, it could be the case that some clan who originally settled up there decided to expand and consolidate into the more fertile and populated lands to the South, bringing their ice-working skills with them, then sealing up their territory.  

 

(I'm kind of really curious about the Thenns (whose subjects worship them as gods) and some of the Frozen Shore inhabitants who are said to worship the cold gods, as a side point).    

[Curled Finger]

You know, this whole thread takes on new meaning when one reads FM to mean faceless men.    I suggest/plead we change the abbreviation of First Men to 1M or something like that.   My head was spinning to where none of this really good brainstorming was making sense.   Please!

[Mithras]

Before the First Men came, there was once a single primeval forest stretching from the Cape Wrath to Cape Kraken. If you look at the map, it is a HUGE swath of land. Current Stormlands, Crownlands, Riverlands, a major part of the Reach and the Neck fall into this forest. All that remains of this great wood are the kingswood and the rainwood.

 

Then, it is not a stretch to think that the Haunted Forest and the wolfswood are the remnants of an enormous primeval forest.

 

An interesting fact: Gods Eye falls right into the middle of this primeval forest in the South and the Wall falls right into the middle of this primeval forest in the North.

 

ETA: Civil wars divide a country from the capitol.

 

:cool4:

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

The Stark Kings were Kings because they were part of the earliest experiments that created wargs, in Bloodravens cave, there is evidence of a wolf and a bear, giants and humans being bound to the tree like a greenseer.
Once the animals went into the tree, it enabled humans to warg animals, and also explains fights between giants and CotF.
The First Brandon Stark was the last hero, and the first greenseer human.
Which I see as the Pact which ended the Long Night, and began the Dawn Age.
Also a reason most every first man castle that had a king, also had a weirwood, with a greenseer.
Leaf says giants were their brothers and their bane, but they don't speak the same language? You could talk a man into bonding a tree maybe, but giants and animals would never willingly allow roots to grow through their bodies.
The Bran chapters in ADWD really made me distrust the children, it started outside the cave when the wights attack, it specifically says that night has fallen, the next page is where we first see Leaf. They don't use metal, don't have names, don't come out in daylight. Old Nans long night story.,the Others hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun.
These trees seem to want blood, all the oldest stories include sacrifice to the trees, they still do north of the wall, and did as early as 500 years, or sooner in White Harbor.
The Rat Cook story is about the trees, Broke the guest right, was transformed into giant White Rat with Red eyes, that could only consume its own young, In a weircave you would see roots growing through skulls and bones everywhere of the Children of the Forest.

[kissdbyfire]

The Stark Kings were Kings because they were part of the earliest experiments that created wargs, in Bloodravens cave, there is evidence of a wolf and a bear, giants and humans being bound to the tree like a greenseer.
Once the animals went into the tree, it enabled humans to warg animals, and also explains fights between giants and CotF.
The First Brandon Stark was the last hero, and the first greenseer human.
Which I see as the Pact which ended the Long Night, and began the Dawn Age.
Also a reason most every first man castle that had a king, also had a weirwood, with a greenseer.
Leaf says giants were their brothers and their bane, but they don't speak the same language? You could talk a man into bonding a tree maybe, but giants and animals would never willingly allow roots to grow through their bodies.
The Bran chapters in ADWD really made me distrust the children, it started outside the cave when the wights attack, it specifically says that night has fallen, the next page is where we first see Leaf. They don't use metal, don't have names, don't come out in daylight. Old Nans long night story.,the Others hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun.
These trees seem to want blood, all the oldest stories include sacrifice to the trees, they still do north of the wall, and did as early as 500 years, or sooner in White Harbor.
The Rat Cook story is about the trees, Broke the guest right, was transformed into giant White Rat with Red eyes, that could only consume its own young, In a weircave you would see roots growing through skulls and bones everywhere of the Children of the Forest.

 

I think there's some sort of pact, maybe THE Pact, maybe another pact. With possibly mingling of First Men and CotF bloodlines, either though interbreeding or magic or something. I started a topic about this some years ago, I'll try to find it and if I do I'll post the OP here. 

 

I think some of today's Northern houses received the gift of skinchanging but not all. Maybe their sigils are connected to this too; direwolf, bear, giant, trees, etc.