Littlefinger orchestrated Brandon Starks death

[Regular John Umber]

Who's listening? He's the son of a very minor lord and has zero clout. It boils down to just because he says it, it doesn't mean anyone/everyone is going to believe it, let alone repeat and spread it. Now if it is just to a chance meeting with Brandon on the road, the same thing applies. Why would he listen to LF when he was damn close to killing not very long ago?

It doesn't have to come from him directly. He could spread it in many ways; he could tell someone that he heard it from someone more important. Rumours have lives of their own.

[Joe Pesci]

It doesn't have to come from him directly. He could spread it in many ways; he could tell someone that he heard it from someone more important. Rumours have lives of their own.

 

True, but it still boils down to people believing LF with whatever he says. And the fact that he is essentially a nobody at this time would seem to hinder him in this. I still think it has to come from a legit source for Brandon to find out and do what he did. LF and/or a rumor just don't cut it as legit at the time.

[Ygrain]

 

I have read your position, and every post in this thread. The total lack of evidence is the sticking point for me, speculation does not cut it, especially when it pertains to an event that would have to have everything fall into LF's injured lap perfectly to come to fruition. And why would Brandon believe anything that LF would say? There is just way too many things that would need to coincide for this to work imo.

 

As far as GRRM being surprised by the question, I'd guess he figured he already gave LF a written background and probably didn't think too much about it beyond that. It would be tough if he had to account for every action of all of his characters throughout their whole lives. We look far too deep into things, but that's what makes it fun for us as fans.

 

 

Who's listening? He's the son of a very minor lord and has zero clout. It boils down to just because he says it, it doesn't mean anyone/everyone is going to believe it, let alone repeat and spread it. Now if it is just to a chance meeting with Brandon on the road, the same thing applies. Why would he listen to LF when he was damn close to killing not very long ago?

Then it's peculiar that you're arguing something that I never stated, and the same goes for your current post - I, or anyone else, for that matter, never claimed there was evidence, we are all just speculating for the fun of it.

 

Anyway, my take on the whole thing is this:

 

Yes, something might have fallen into LF's injured lap, just like Tyrion happened to arrive at the Crossroads Inn at the same time as Cat. What happened was witnessed by many people, the news spread and shitstorm followed. As a result, Jaime did something rash and rather stupid... sounds familiar? Swap Cat for Rhaegar, Tyrion for Lyanna and Jaime for Brandon, and you have the pre-Rebellion pot ready for stirring. The difference is that both Jaime and Ned are in KL, whereas Brandon has to travel for days to get there, and still does something so incredibly rash and stupid. Being the wild wolf might perhaps be sufficient explanation, or perhaps not. Perhaps one of the witnesses who has no other weapon but his tongue tells him something like, "you Starks are so much about honour, yet your sister didn't seem unwilling at all and will spread her legs for Rhaegar like some common whore. Where did they go? Why, south - do you Starks have only snow between your ears? Where else would he go, to his lady wife on DS? To KL, you idiot, where you won't dare touch him."

 

BTW, talking of parallels, how did Jaime find out where Ned had gone and why did LF take Ned to see Barra on that very day and not earlier?

[Lord Wraith]

Then it's peculiar that you're arguing something that I never stated, and the same goes for your current post - I, or anyone else, for that matter, never claimed there was evidence, we are all just speculating for the fun of it.

 

Anyway, my take on the whole thing is this:

 

Yes, something might have fallen into LF's injured lap, just like Tyrion happened to arrive at the Crossroads Inn at the same time as Cat. What happened was witnessed by many people, the news spread and shitstorm followed. As a result, Jaime did something rash and rather stupid... sounds familiar? Swap Cat for Rhaegar, Tyrion for Lyanna and Jaime for Brandon, and you have the pre-Rebellion pot ready for stirring. The difference is that both Jaime and Ned are in KL, whereas Brandon has to travel for days to get there, and still does something so incredibly rash and stupid. Being the wild wolf might perhaps be sufficient explanation, or perhaps not. Perhaps one of the witnesses who has no other weapon but his tongue tells him something like, "you Starks are so much about honour, yet your sister didn't seem unwilling at all and will spread her legs for Rhaegar like some common whore. Where did they go? Why, south - do you Starks have only snow between your ears? Where else would he go, to his lady wife on DS? To KL, you idiot, where you won't dare touch him."

 

BTW, talking of parallels, how did Jaime find out where Ned had gone and why did LF take Ned to see Barra on that very day and not earlier?

 

If it did happen it would have been at the Crossroad's Inn. Its basically the Coincidence Inn in the story.

[Ygrain]

 

If it did happen it would have been at the Crossroad's Inn. Its basically the Coincidence Inn in the story.

That's why it had been suggested as the place of the "abduction" long before the information from the World Book.

[Joe Pesci]

Then it's peculiar that you're arguing something that I never stated, and the same goes for your current post - I, or anyone else, for that matter, never claimed there was evidence, we are all just speculating for the fun of it.

 

Anyway, my take on the whole thing is this:

 

Yes, something might have fallen into LF's injured lap, just like Tyrion happened to arrive at the Crossroads Inn at the same time as Cat. What happened was witnessed by many people, the news spread and shitstorm followed. As a result, Jaime did something rash and rather stupid... sounds familiar? Swap Cat for Rhaegar, Tyrion for Lyanna and Jaime for Brandon, and you have the pre-Rebellion pot ready for stirring. The difference is that both Jaime and Ned are in KL, whereas Brandon has to travel for days to get there, and still does something so incredibly rash and stupid. Being the wild wolf might perhaps be sufficient explanation, or perhaps not. Perhaps one of the witnesses who has no other weapon but his tongue tells him something like, "you Starks are so much about honour, yet your sister didn't seem unwilling at all and will spread her legs for Rhaegar like some common whore. Where did they go? Why, south - do you Starks have only snow between your ears? Where else would he go, to his lady wife on DS? To KL, you idiot, where you won't dare touch him."

 

BTW, talking of parallels, how did Jaime find out where Ned had gone and why did LF take Ned to see Barra on that very day and not earlier?

 

Well the OP does state it is flimsy, circumstantial evidence that this is based on, so I've stated my disagreement throughout this thread off of that so that is where I got the "evidence" from.

 

If Rhaegar actually "took" Lyanna at the inn in front of a bunch of witnesses, what is the point of LF having to manipulate anything? That is what I have been against, that there isn't any reason for LF to have somehow had his hand in this to begin with, the news would spread without him having to be involved at all. This happening at the inn takes his condition out of the equation too since I have argued he wasn't in any shape to scheme at the time, as again, there is no reason for it.

 

Now the Jaime/Ned thing? Yeah LF was totally behind that shit. But at that point of time, he was well established with a network of informers who could relay this info to get back to Jaime or someone he knows very easily, he had none of that pre-Rebellion.

[Ygrain]

 

Well the OP does state it is flimsy, circumstantial evidence that this is based on, so I've stated my disagreement throughout this thread off of that so that is where I got the "evidence" from.

 

If Rhaegar actually "took" Lyanna at the inn in front of a bunch of witnesses, what is the point of LF having to manipulate anything? That is what I have been against, that there isn't any reason for LF to have somehow had his hand in this to begin with, the news would spread without him having to be involved at all. This happening at the inn takes his condition out of the equation too since I have argued he wasn't in any shape to scheme at the time, as again, there is no reason for it.

 

Now the Jaime/Ned thing? Yeah LF was totally behind that shit. But at that point of time, he was well established with a network of informers who could relay this info to get back to Jaime or someone he knows very easily, he had none of that pre-Rebellion.

The reason why this theory was brought to life was the question, "why the hell did Brandon go to KL and act there like an idiot when Rhaegar wasn't even there?" The answer may be as simple as "Brandon was an idiotic hothead" but we have that statement from Ned that Brandon always knew what to do, which seems contradictory to his behaviour at KL. So, there might be a possibility that Brandon acted on the basis of a misdirection, intentional or unintentional, or some instigation that made him go bananas and ride for KL in righteous anger which lasted for days.

 

The scenario I presented doesn't really require LF scheming - merely attempting to even the score with Brandon verbally, using truth delivered in a prickly way, with perhaps a little exaggeration and presenting as facts things which were not as clear-cut. LF probably wouldn't have seen beyond getting Brandon pissed, perhaps making him look like a fool when arriving at KL and finding no-one there. The outcome would far exceed anything LF might have imagined, but the realization what he had set in motion with just a couple of rather innocent words would have a huge impact on him. And all that this scenario requires is the bad luck of bringing LF, Rhaegar and Lyanna, and later Brandon, into the same location (come to think of it, actually only LF and Brandon meeting would be enough, with both only hearing the news and LF elaborating)

[Rippounet]

The reason why this theory was brought to life was the question, "why the hell did Brandon go to KL and act there like an idiot when Rhaegar wasn't even there?" The answer may be as simple as "Brandon was an idiotic hothead" but we have that statement from Ned that Brandon always knew what to do, which seems contradictory to his behaviour at KL. So, there might be a possibility that Brandon acted on the basis of a misdirection, intentional or unintentional, or some instigation that made him go bananas and ride for KL in righteous anger which lasted for days.

 

The scenario I presented doesn't really require LF scheming - merely attempting to even the score with Brandon verbally, using truth delivered in a prickly way, with perhaps a little exaggeration and presenting as facts things which were not as clear-cut. LF probably wouldn't have seen beyond getting Brandon pissed, perhaps making him look like a fool when arriving at KL and finding no-one there. The outcome would far exceed anything LF might have imagined, but the realization what he had set in motion with just a couple of rather innocent words would have a huge impact on him. And all that this scenario requires is the bad luck of bringing LF, Rhaegar and Lyanna, and later Brandon, into the same location (come to think of it, actually only LF and Brandon meeting would be enough, with both only hearing the news and LF elaborating)

 

Good summary.

I don't think Brandon would have listened to LF though. LF sending a raven/messager, or finding someone to whisper in Brandon's ear is more likely.

 

Of course, it's just for fun. LF is just one of many suspects, and others had good motives and better means to achieve the same thing.

 

[syrioforelseesforreal]

 
Good summary.
I don't think Brandon would have listened to LF though. LF sending a raven/messager, or finding someone to whisper in Brandon's ear is more likely.
 
Of course, it's just for fun. LF is just one of many suspects, and others had good motives and better means to achieve the same thing.
 

Who else had good motives? Ned if he wished to be lord of WF? Doesn't seem a move the calculating Roose B would make, so who? Just curious btw not trying to prove you wrong or anything.

[Rippounet]

Who else had good motives? Ned if he wished to be lord of WF? Doesn't seem a move the calculating Roose B would make, so who? Just curious btw not trying to prove you wrong or anything.

Brandon rushing to KL to challenge Rhaegar could achieve tons of things:

1) Get Brandon killed.

2) Get Rhaegar accused of abducting Lyanna (for all we know, she went with him of her own free will ; why would she not?), thus shattering any hope for Rhaegar of getting the Starks and Baratheons (and Tullys) to support a claim against his father.

3) Create an opposition (possibly a war) between the Stark-Baratheon-Tully alliance (not to mention the Arryns) and the crown (the Targaryen dynasty).

 

As to 1): maybe LF wasn't the only one to hate Brandon.

As to 2): All Aerys supporters would have wanted to prevent Rhaegar from getting the support of such important Lords Paramount.

As to 3): Even if the Targaryens had successfully ended the rebellion, it would still have been a massive blow to their authority.

[Ygrain]

Who else had good motives? Ned if he wished to be lord of WF? Doesn't seem a move the calculating Roose B would make, so who? Just curious btw not trying to prove you wrong or anything.

Varys. Brandon would be just a pawn to sacrifice in order to bring a volatile situation to an explosion that would destroy House Targaryen.

[syrioforelseesforreal]

Varys. Brandon would be just a pawn to sacrifice in order to bring a volatile situation to an explosion that would destroy House Targaryen.

Assuming his Blackfryreness?
Best one next to LF I've heard so far.

[Greymoon]

So just flimsy, circumstantial evidence here, more of a hunch.Brandon was known to be short-tempered and it is never stated as to how word of Lyannas "kidnapping" is spread. Doesn't seem like a stretch that LF could predict how'd he (brandon) react and how Aerys would react, and spread a rumor of said " kidnapping" having knowledge of their (Rhaegs n Lyanna) relationship somehow. Dunno, again just a hunch.

 

If Littelfinger had a part in it, it's more probable imo, that he didn't expect the result of his manipulations, didn't measure the consequences of his acts...and only understood later, how much power his words had had over the events that followed.

 

Say, Littelfinger heard "Prince Rhagear took Lyanna away from the King's men" (see the rescue theory), but didn't explain the whole thing, and even exagerated the events (or insulted Lyanna), in order to anger Brandon - because Brandon had just defeated him and Petyr felt humiliated.

 

Now, little Petyr didn't lie, but twisted the truth, with no idea what the consequences of his words would be... and when he heard that Brandon got arrested, revenge tasted sweet... little Petyr understood in that moment that a few well chosen words, words spoken in anger to a rival, were enough to start a war, to plunge the realm into chaos...

 

And a vocation was born.

[Ygrain]

Assuming his Blackfryreness?
Best one next to LF I've heard so far.

Yes.

 

Actually, both could have been involved - LF setting Brandon to go to KL angrily, and once he was there, Varys seized the opportunity and played Aerys's paranoia.

[Lord Wraith]

If this were true how would it be revealed?

[Rippounet]

Both LF and Varys like to talk/brag. They could easily admit at some point they "caused" RR, though they're likely to use veiled terms.