Refugee Crisis 2 - a warm welcome in Germany

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Well best of luck to these migrants.

 

What I don't understand though, is why there is not a large movement in the middle eastern countries (largely Muslim and Arab) to welcome/protect these refugees?

 

Presumably the migrants might feel "more at home" in a place like the UAE or Saudi Arabia. Both countries are drenched in oil wealth and could conceivably help these people.

 

Why is it that there is no drive among the people of the middle east to welcome these refugees into their own lands? Surely fellow Muslims and Arabs deserve better than to live their lives in such alien cultures as Germany, England and France?

[Commodore]

What I don't understand though, is why there is not a large movement in the middle eastern countries (largely Muslim and Arab) to welcome/protect these refugees?

The existence of social welfare programs.

[Hayyoth]

Well best of luck to these migrants.

 

What I don't understand though, is why there is not a large movement in the middle eastern countries (largely Muslim and Arab) to welcome/protect these refugees?

 

Presumably the migrants might feel "more at home" in a place like the UAE or Saudi Arabia. Both countries are drenched in oil wealth and could conceivably help these people.

Why is it that there is no drive among the people of the middle east to welcome these refugees into their own lands? Surely fellow Muslims and Arabs deserve better than to live their lives in such alien cultures as Germany, England and France?

Well for a start countries like KSA provide nothing in the way of welfare for non citizens, Muslim or not. Compared to many western nations who will provide generous dole to whoever presents, I'm sure the migrants are aware of this. Then there's the question of permanent residence. There are Palestinian families (Gulf nations let in large numbers of refugees in the 70's) whose families have lived in places like the Emirates and Saudi for decades but who still haven't been given a permanent visa let alone citizenship. They risk deportation for the slightest infraction which is exactly what happened after Gulf War 1 for perceived 'disloyalty'. Also the Gulf nations are more than just ethno centric states, they still have strong tribal structures that dominate their societies. The monarchies maintain their grip on power through loyalty from the tribal sheikhs and on downwards, essentially a feudal system. To allow in millions of foreigner Arabs could potentially disrupt or even destroy such a system.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

The existence of social welfare programs.

 

I thought social wellfare programs existed in the Gulf oil states. While they are quite conservative in some ways, isn't the oil wealth distributed to a degree among the citizens?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

 

I thought social wellfare programs existed in the Gulf oil states. While they are quite conservative in some ways, isn't the oil wealth distributed to a degree among the citizens?

 

Not to the extent it would need to be. The Arab countries are not Norway, that (cleverly) invests its earnings from oil into education and social security.

The Gulf states' welfare programs look good on a first glimpse, but it only works because of the relatively small population size. They only have around 9.5 mil people living there (~2 mil. of those live in Dubai). And it's a fun place to live, if you have cash to burn (well, if you can do without alcohol). Going there with nothing but the clothes you wear, let's just say it's less great. 

And the Gulf States, do not want any poor souls going there, because that could incite some social unrest among the poorer segments of their society. 

[Tijgy]

They want to go to Europe: http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/videozone/nieuws/buitenland/1.2437268 and they want especially go to Germany and Sweden. 

 

Strangely enough, according to the statistics a large part of them are young men. And they miss their family who are still in the Middle-East. However, now their families are coming also. Our public broadcast had today an whole day especially focused on the stories of the refugees. There was a very sad day about a child whose mother and brother/sister died on the sea. He was united with his father in Belgium, who has been here for a while. 

 

There are a lot of complaints about Hungary. Yes, they should maybe ensure more to ensure the refugees are treated more humanly. But the fact they are building a fence and they are protecting the border, is actually just the execution of their European duties in the Dublin ordenance. They have the duty to register them and to give them asylum. The same did also happened in Danemark. But the refugees don't want that because they will have more social rights in Sweden and Germany. 

[Hayyoth]

They want to go to Europe: http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/videozone/nieuws/buitenland/1.2437268 and they want especially go to Germany and Sweden. 

 

Strangely enough, according to the statistics a large part of them are young men. And they miss their family who are still in the Middle-East. However, now their families are coming also. Our public broadcast had today an whole day especially focused on the stories of the refugees. There was a very sad day about a child whose mother and brother/sister died on the sea. He was united with his father in Belgium, who has been here for a while. 

 

There are a lot of complaints about Hungary. Yes, they should maybe ensure more to ensure the refugees are treated more humanly. But the fact they are building a fence and they are protecting the border, is actually just the execution of their European duties in the Dublin ordenance. They have the duty to register them and to give them asylum. The same did also happened in Danemark. But the refugees don't want that because they will have more social rights in Sweden and Germany. 

They want to go to Germany and Sweden because they're pretty much guaranteed automatic processing as refugees and will be given permanent visas. Once their status is regulated they can then go on to wherever they like in the EU. The last thing they want is to have their papers stamped by the Hungarians who're likely to classify them as economic migrants. Essentially the Swedes, but particularly the Germans, have decided to take control of the entire immigration policy for the whole of the EU. It's an utter disgrace.

[Jacques the Japer]

The Islamic pillar of charity doesn't extend further than funding fundamentalist militants in Saudis case it would seem.

 

 

Also, can any Europeans please explain to me how Merkel could ride roughshod over what is in essence supposed to be a democratic system? From what I've read, the decision to allow migrants was a knee jerk one on her part(And not quite in tune with the woman who'd publically proclaimed multiculturalism to be a failure  a few months ago) And consultation with the other EU members was bordering on non-existent.

[Hayyoth]

The Islamic pillar of charity doesn't extend further than funding fundamentalist militants in Saudis case it would seem.

 

 

Also, can any Europeans please explain to me how Merkel could ride roughshod over what is in essence supposed to be a democratic system? From what I've read, the decision to allow migrants was a knee jerk one on her part(And not quite in tune with the woman who'd publically proclaimed multiculturalism to be a failure  a few months ago) And consultation with the other EU members was bordering on non-existent.

The behavior of Merkel is defintiely strange. After the first avalanche of publicity settles the Germans are faced with the stark reality of having to process hndreds of thousands of migrants, almost none of whom speak the language and some who will be serious security risks. This at a time when the German miracle economy, built on the back of Chinese demand for high end machine tools and cars, faces serious pressure as the Chinese economy sinks into recession. And after they've finished processing the ones entering now in the coming weeks/months/years there will be millions more on the way. I have no clue as to how anyone can think this will end well, and Merkel is obviously not an idiot.

[Arkhangel]

It'd be nice if we could chill it a bit with the blatant Islamophobia. The US and Australia's Christian values don't seem to be doing much to motivate them to charity either. It's politics, not religion, which is the sticking point.

[mormont]

The overwhelming majority of Syrian refugees are being hosted by Middle Eastern countries including Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, and particularly Lebanon. To lose sight of that because of either the failure by certain countries (eg Saudi Arabia) to pull their weight or because of the slanted coverage in the Western press may be understandable, but it's a mistake just the same.

[Hayyoth]

It'd be nice if we could chill it a bit with the blatant Islamophobia. The US and Australia's Christian values don't seem to be doing much to motivate them to charity either. It's politics, not religion, which is the sticking point.

It's lifeboat politics which should be motivating our leaders. One country has taken a decision to open up an entire continent to massive foreign migration with potentially tens of millions of people wanting to settle in the coming years. How is that a sustainable situation? How can it not cause social chaos? And why should this not be open to debate?

[Biglose]

The behavior of Merkel is defintiely strange. After the first avalanche of publicity settles the Germans are faced with the stark reality of having to process hndreds of thousands of migrants, almost none of whom speak the language and some who will be serious security risks. This at a time when the German miracle economy, built on the back of Chinese demand for high end machine tools and cars, faces serious pressure as the Chinese economy sinks into recession. And after they've finished processing the ones entering now in the coming weeks/months/years there will be millions more on the way. I have no clue as to how anyone can think this will end well, and Merkel is obviously not an idiot.

Well, there are several possibilities.

1. Ideological/religious: It is not really visible to the outside but a lot of people are quite religious in germany. Thats why we have for example a ban on stemcell research (fetal). Which is kind of shared from the far left to the right. (With a few fringe exceptions). It is this goody two shoes kind of religious. And my guess is thats one of the reasons there is not a real debate about for example abortion in any direction. (It is currently legal with a few constrains)

2. She simple thought (she does often opinion Polls) that she would not stand a chance against the left on this issue. So she saw no point in resisting.

3. It is same elaborte plan for her to finally cruch any parliamentary opposition and be crowned the queen of germany.

 

I would go with 2 with a pint of 1. People like gauk (and probably some others of her coalition) are very close to that jesus stuff...

The point is, even if there is massive failure I do not think it would hurt her. It will hurt the left. A lot. Becuase to be honest, it does not really looks like Merkel is acting, she is driven by the left and public opinion, espacially of the media. It looks quite the same as fukushima...

[Hayyoth]

Well, there are several possibilities.

1. Ideological/religious: It is not really visible to the outside but a lot of people are quite religious in germany. Thats why we have for example a ban on stemcell research (fetal). Which is kind of shared from the far left to the right. (With a few fringe exceptions). It is this goody two shoes kind of religious. And my guess is thats one of the reasons there is not a real debate about for example abortion in any direction. (It is currently legal with a few constrains)

2. She simple thought (she does often opinion Polls) that she would not stand a chance against the left on this issue. So she saw no point in resisting.

3. It is same elaborte plan for her to finally cruch any parliamentary opposition and be crowned the queen of germany.

 

I would go with 2 with a pint of 1. People like gauk (and probably some others of her coalition) are very close to that jesus stuff...

The point is, even if there is massive failure I do not think it would hurt her. It will hurt the left. A lot. Becuase to be honest, it does not really looks like Merkel is acting, she is driven by the left and public opinion, espacially of the media. It looks quite the same as fukushima...

But it's so short term. She must realize what's going to happen next? What's the plan then? Just this summer alone has tested the EU past breaking point, where does she think another year or two of this will end up?

[Ser Lepus]

 

Few thousands - that's just the beginning. The same proposals to mandatory redistribute 160 000 refugees across EU countries also include permanent redistribution mechanism for all future refugees arriving into EU. Hell, few months ago they were talking just about 40 000. It's really carte blanche for EU, that will permanently abolish state sovereignty in all immigration matters. If it passes EU will be able to dictate every member state how many migrants to accept. You don't like it? Repealing such agreement will be almost impossible (you need 2/3 or unanimous decision in some cases to pass all important legislation on EU level), so if any country changes their mind after seeing the effects, they can't do shit, except leaving EU entirely.  Every one should oppose it, not just few countries.

 

At that point France and Germany will be as hard pressed to do something to stop the flow as any other country, if not more. Germany is going to receive 50,000 refugees, France 24,000, OK 20,000, Italy and Spain around 14,000-15,000 each. And many of those refugees will cross borders and ilegally head to Germany. The German and French governments will have to figure something to stop the flow.

 

Germany won't accept all the refugees on its own. If there isn't an agreement, they will just close the borders and let Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece to figure out how to deal with the refugees. And they will close their eastern border too, because the immigrants will use Poland as a path int Germany otherwise.

[The Iceman of the North]

 

I thought social wellfare programs existed in the Gulf oil states. While they are quite conservative in some ways, isn't the oil wealth distributed to a degree among the citizens?

Yes, welfare for the citizens are pretty high. But in most of the Gulf States, citizens is a minority of the population. Non-citizens generally live slightly better than slaves, but not with as many rights.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The behavior of Merkel is defintiely strange. After the first avalanche of publicity settles the Germans are faced with the stark reality of having to process hndreds of thousands of migrants, almost none of whom speak the language and some who will be serious security risks. This at a time when the German miracle economy, built on the back of Chinese demand for high end machine tools and cars, faces serious pressure as the Chinese economy sinks into recession. And after they've finished processing the ones entering now in the coming weeks/months/years there will be millions more on the way. I have no clue as to how anyone can think this will end well, and Merkel is obviously not an idiot.

And they won't be processed. The Bamf (Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlinge) has a backlog of 250,000 applications - and got only 116,000 processed during the first half of 2015.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlinge-bundesamt-in-der-kritik-a-1052130.html

 

Next year's problem. Somebody else's problem. Not Merkel's.

 

But it's so short term. She must realize what's going to happen next? What's the plan then? Just this summer alone has tested the EU past breaking point, where does she think another year or two of this will end up?

Merkel is a brutal powerbroker. That famous image of the drowned kid changed public opinion. Merkel went with the flow, galloping to the forefront. As soon as everybody has forgotten the poor boy, she'll let the issue die a quiet death.

 

MO Merkel. She has practised that for her entire time in office.

[polishgenius]

What I don't understand though, is why there is not a large movement in the middle eastern countries (largely Muslim and Arab) to welcome/protect these refugees?

 

 

On top of the things others have been saying, moderate Muslim Syrians are potentially quite likely to feel more at home in Christian, but not insistently so, nations in Europe than in nations ruled by more hardcore versions of Islam, like Saudi Arabia. I mean, they're fleeing from fundamentalists, they might not want to throw themselves on the mercies of a nation ruled by them, even if it's less genocidally maniacal.

[Happy Ent]

The point is, even if there is massive failure I do not think it would hurt her. It will hurt the left. A lot. 

 

Exactly. The left just collectively decided to abolish the national welfare state. Since I don’t see the EU becoming the host of a social democratic system instead, it’s game over for that model. She couldn’t be happpier.

[polishgenius]

Also:

 

Germany won't accept all the refugees on its own. If there isn't an agreement, they will just close the borders

Yeah, they'll just casually violate the Schengen agreement, causing far more problems and long-term ramifications than dealing with even a lare amount of immigrants. That sounds likely.