Refugee Crisis 2 - a warm welcome in Germany

[ettoega]

That said, I think Enguerrand's jumping the gun a bit with his categorisation. If the border remains permanently closed we can start accusing them of rolling back on their commitment and leaving everyone else to deal with it, rather than slowing the flow so that not everyone is simply rolling into Munich at thousands a day. I can't see it being the former, but you know.

 

They are not "closing" the borders, they are performing random controls to send back people without papers. One reason for this temporary change surely is the Oktoberfest in Munich which starts next weekend. The tourist office doesn't want to have an expected 6 million guests - many of them international - tripping over thousands of refugees camping in the Munich central station. It's all just hypocrisy.

[SeanF]

It must be hard for Arakan to find himself living in a nazi state overnight like this.  
 
Do you have a stalhelm and enough gray clothes lying around, or will you need borrow these things? When can we expect the tanks to start crossing the Oder?

I don't think Germany had any choice but to do as it has done. Open Borders aren't a credible option.

[Ser Lepus]

It seems that all the eastern members of the EU adamantly refuse to accept refugees... this might bite them in the ass if Germany decides to pull out of Schengen. You would think that keeping the system that has boosted prosperity would be worth taking in a few thousand refugees.

Few thousands - that's just the beginning. The same proposals to mandatory redistribute 160 000 refugees across EU countries also include permanent redistribution mechanism for all future refugees arriving into EU. Hell, few months ago they were talking just about 40 000. It's really carte blanche for EU, that will permanently abolish state sovereignty in all immigration matters. If it passes EU will be able to dictate every member state how many migrants to accept. You don't like it? Repealing such agreement will be almost impossible (you need 2/3 or unanimous decision in some cases to pass all important legislation on EU level), so if any country changes their mind after seeing the effects, they can't do shit, except leaving EU entirely.  Every one should oppose it, not just few countries.

At that point France and Germany will be as hard pressed to do something to stop the flow as any other country, if not more. Germany is going to receive 50,000 refugees, France 24,000, OK 20,000, Italy and Spain around 14,000-15,000 each. And many of those refugees will cross borders and ilegally head to Germany. The German and French governments will have to figure something to stop the flow.

Germany won't accept all the refugees on its own. If there isn't an agreement, they will just close the borders and let Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece to figure out how to deal with the refugees. And they will close their eastern border too, because the immigrants will use Poland as a path int Germany otherwise.

Yeah, they'll just casually violate the Schengen agreement, causing far more problems and long-term ramifications than dealing with even a lare amount of immigrants. That sounds likely.

Well that didn't take long.

As I said, the other countries can't expect to have Germany shoulder all the burden. They were willing to take in more refugees than anybody else, but it wasn't enough, they were expected to take them all on their own. So they have ceased to take in any more refugees (which they technically don't have the obligation to do, since those refugees have passed though several others European countries before reaching Germany).

Nobody has the right to criticize the German government now. They were going to do more than their share, but most of the rest of Europe didn't want to contribute at all.

[SeanF]

As I said, the other countries can't expect to have Germany shoulder all the burden. They were willing to take in more refugees than anybody else, but it wasn't enough, they were expected to take them all on their own. So they have ceased to take in any more refugees (which they technically don't have the obligation to do, since those refugees have passed though several others European countries before reaching Germany).Nobody has the right to criticize the German government now. They were going to do more than their share, but most of the rest of Europe didn't want to contribute at all.

I don't blame the Germans' action today. I think that promising asylum to anyone from Syria was unwise, and has fuelled the current rush to Germany.

[Commodore]

is it some lingering guilt complex that causes Germany to take care of everyone else (Greece, Syria, etc.)?

[Ser Lepus]

is it some lingering guilt complex that causes Germany to take care of everyone else (Greece, Syria, etc.)?

 

I guess they were trying to set an example, expecting the other countries to accept the quota system. If they contributed more than anybody else, the other countries couldn't say "what about you?".

 

But it didn't work as expected. More than half of Europe refused the quotes. Hungary refused to keep any refugee and joined the group of countries fighting against the quotas. The Czech and Slovak interior ministers proposed to create a train corridor from Hungary to Germany.

 

So the German government pulled back and is going to let the countries that are between Germany and the Mediterranean deal with the crisis.

 

It will work for Denmark, Poland, the Baltic Countries...etc., which aren't transit countries, but the countries that were most adamant in their refusal to the quota system (besides Poland) were Hungary, Slovakia and Czech Republic, which are transit countries (the Austria-Hungary border is much smaller and easier to control than the Slovakia-Hungary border). It is going to become their problem now.

 

I'm afraid the pressure will be transmitted to Hungary's neighbours. The refugees will try to travel through Croatia and Slovenia or through Bulgary and Romania. Those countries (and Serbia, and Macedonia) will eventually close their borders too.

 

Greece can't deal with the refugees on its own, and Turkey won't take them back, so the Greek will eventually have to try to lock the refugees in camps.

 

Unless all contries try and pull their heads out of their own asses this is going to be HORRIBLE.

[SeanF]

I think the problem with the quota system was that countries were expected to sign up to something that was completely open-ended.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I don't think Germany had any choice but to do as it has done. Open Borders aren't a credible option.

I most definitely agree. I was just joking about Arakan's nazi comments from the previous thread. 

 

But Merkel though, first telling everyone to come and thus getting hundreds of thousands of people moving, and then just backpedaling like this almost immediately afterwards. It is just... I have no words. I think the politicians in my country are total idiots most of them, but Merkel really is something else. Especially considering how much power and responsibility she has, holding one of the world's most important political offices. Germany really lives up to its tradition of electing leaders that are absolutely disastrous for the rest of the world. 

 

We should banish Merkel from the EU for life, instead of having discussions about kicking Greece out of the union. 

[Ser Lepus]

I think the problem with the quota system was that countries were expected to sign up to something that was completely open-ended.

 

They could have pressed for a reasonable upper limit in number, country of origin (as in, we will take only people who can prove they come from Syria or Iraq) and in time of arrival (as in, we won't take anybody who arrives one of two years from now).

 

However, many countries explicitly refused to take more than a couple hundred refugees (and only Christian ones).

 

Which, from a ruthlessly pragmatist, selfish point of view works for Poland and Denmark, but, what were Hungary, Slovakia and Czech Republic thinking? If no country takes its share of refugees, they become Hungary's and its close neighbours' problem, not Germany's.

 

Austria, which is in a similar position as a transit country understood it and became a supporter of the quota system.

[Tijgy]

In Belgium the opinion actually differ between the parties who are in the government. 

 

However Belgium, the Netherlands, ... only will agree with the quota on certain conditions, like the fact that all countries will do their fair share, better outside border controls, ... 

[Enguerrand]

is it some lingering guilt complex that causes Germany to take care of everyone else (Greece, Syria, etc.)?

 

Germany's immigration is actually rather average in Europe compared to it's population. Sweden accept about 6 times he number of refugees Germany does, per capita.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

[Tijgy]

I most definitely agree. I was just joking about Arakan's nazi comments from the previous thread. 

 

But Merkel though, first telling everyone to come and thus getting hundreds of thousands of people moving, and then just backpedaling like this almost immediately afterwards. It is just... I have no words. I think the politicians in my country are total idiots most of them, but Merkel really is something else. Especially considering how much power and responsibility she has, holding one of the world's most important political offices. Germany really lives up to its tradition of electing leaders that are absolutely disastrous for the rest of the world. 

 

We should banish Merkel from the EU for life, instead of having discussions about kicking Greece out of the union. 

 

Oh joy, again Merkel and Hollande are going to say what the EU will do. Do they not know that they deciding everything for the EU actually creates the EU skeptics. Who in fact had the possibility to vote for them? I did not. Long live the democracy!

 

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2015/09/13/refugies-entretien-hollande-merkel-a-la-veille-de-la-reunion-de-bruxelles_1381952

[Marcus Agrippa]

I don't believe for a second that it was a good idea to begin with. The biggest issue with all this was- who started it? I blame the Iraq war for accelerating this crisis- but it was coming down the line anyway. We are about to have a LOT of issues on this planet. Water, helium, food issues, ect. would have put this in motion eventually. Ultimately, the middle east doesn't have the resources to put up with a massive population to begin with- why they refuse to practive birth control is beyond me. Don't say "culture". I am sick of that word. It means nothing. All culture is human. We are all human. So everything we do is human hence culture is a practically useless word we use to describe a tribes actions when they are different then our own. Don't start me on tribalism because that literally is the cause of every civil war in human history. Yes, all wars are civil wars.

[Hereward]

Last time I checked the UK had serious political forces proposing to leave... NATO. 

 

Name one, please.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

is it some lingering guilt complex that causes Germany to take care of everyone else (Greece, Syria, etc.)?

You have to remember that around 14 million Germans were refugees at the end of WWII as a result of being forcibly expelled from the east (in particular those parts of East Prussia that became part of Poland and Russian Kaliningrad). The vast majority of these refugees settled in either East or West Germany (though quite a few also went to the US eventually, I think). So many Germans were, are the children of, are the grand-children or great-grandchildren of said refugees. So no, it's not just a guilt complex, many families specifically remember being war refugees.

[HobbsTuna]

So Germany's compassion and high horses only lasted a week, Withdrawing of Schengen, sending troops to the border. meanwhile the Hungarians are evil nazi's for having to deal with this for years.

 

But no worries, there are always Sweden, The last bastion of humanity. That country would never give in to the racists and turn away refugees in need. I guess all the economic growth and opportunity is theirs now.

 

It's not Germany's job to fix the ills of the world. If nobody else wants to play ball, beginning with our brave defenders of freedom and their poodles , who seem perfectly happy to outsource the consequences of their actions and ending with Eastern Europe, whose opinion can apparently summarized as "meh it's your problem", Germany should look after it's own interest first, too. If we can make it Eastern Europe's problem too, we should.

 

Sharing is caring.

 

 

 

 

Weeeelll, that went well.

That said, I think Enguerrand's jumping the gun a bit with his categorisation. If the border remains permanently closed we can start accusing them of rolling back on their commitment and leaving everyone else to deal with it, rather than slowing the flow so that not everyone is simply rolling into Munich at thousands a day. I can't see it being the former, but you know.

 

I hope we keep at it until the refugees spill north from Hungary towards Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic. If you don't want to take any refugees, just take care of those you will show up on their own.

 

 

Name one, please.

 

Jeremy Corbyn.

[HobbsTuna]

 

Germany's immigration is actually rather average in Europe compared to it's population. Sweden accept about 6 times he number of refugees Germany does, per capita.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

 

Your statistic is both misleading and outdated in that it only shows positive decisions from last year.

 

Problems:

 

Due to the large number of applicants the asylum system is completely overrun, of over 200 000 refugees only half had a decision.

 

Of these 100 000 decisions 60 000 were negative but only 11 000 were deported. The rest is still in the appeals process or is being tolerated because the home country is not cooperating or on humanitarian or medical grounds.

 

This year it will be a four-fold increase, at least.

[Hereward]

Jeremy Corbyn.

 

When he was in favour of leaving he wasn't a serious political force, now that he is, he's no longer proposing this, and even if he was, it is not within his power to make Labour's policy on NATO.

[Tijgy]

You can't say that Merkel did not make a mistake by first deciding unilaterally to welcome all the refugees and now (almost) unilaterally deciding to re-establish the border controls.  

[ettoega]

 

 Germany really lives up to its tradition of electing leaders that are absolutely disastrous for the rest of the world. 

 

 

And sooner or later for Germany too.