Arianne's Omission

[Farerb]

 
And yet Trystane is going to KL in the show. I don't have any faith in D+D's ability to put together a logical story. Why would I? If and when something makes sense, then I'll cede that. Until then I'm just going to assume that things are as stupid as they look. 

So you already know what they are planning to do with the Sand Snake next season?!?
People here are just giving them no respect without realizing how hard it is to adapt a book (espacially this book). Some of their decision turn out to be bad and some turn out to be good. That is no reason to shit on them. The fact that they are working closely with Martin shows how they care and respect the source material. People just need to calm down and understand that they can't have every character and every storyline exactly like the books because they have limitation of time, budget and resources.

[protar]

So you already know what they are planning to do with the Sand Snake next season?!?
People here are just giving them no respect without realizing how hard it is to adapt a book (espacially this book). Some of their decision turn out to be bad and some turn out to be good. That is no reason to shit on them. The fact that they are working closely with Martin shows how they care and respect the source material. People just need to calm down and understand that they can't have every character and every storyline exactly like the books because they have limitation of time, budget and resources.

 

That's not what I said. I said that I'm just going to expect nothing good so if something does end up being good/making sense it will be a pleasant surprise. All we know so far is that Trystane is being sent to KL in the show, while Nym is sent in the books.

 

ETA: As for D+D working closely with Martin, Martin has been growing more and more uninvolved with the show with each passing season. Make of that what you will.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

It's not difficult at all. Dorne is more egalitarian than the rest of Westeros and Arianne is first in line but is worried her father is taking that right from her. If you can sum it up in one sentence, it aint difficult. Once upon a time this show was marketed as being an intelligent drama. 

 

But even if you somehow can't fit that in it still would have been better to have one developed character sharing Arianne's name and personality than three complete nobodies. But I completely dispute that you couldn't have fit any of that in. Sometimes it's not always the right move to streamline and simplify. A certain amount of depth is required for the show to actually have an impact beyond shock moments.

Its a much more complicated story that has no human angle and doesn't connect to other characters in the show. In the book a whole bunch of time is spent with new characters you don't know or care about. You can't do that so much in the show.

 

[protar]

Its a much more complicated story that has no human angle and doesn't connect to other characters in the show. In the book a whole bunch of time is spent with new characters you don't know or care about. You can't do that so much in the show.

 

 

And yet that's exactly what they did.

 

And really? There's no human angle in book!Dorne? It's all about the human angle and the family dynamics. If you or D+D didn't like Arianne and Doran's relationship that's on you guys. It's not their job to make subjective judgements like that. Or it shouldn't be.

 

As for the connection to the main story, I don't see why you need preestablished characters there to see how it connects. The Martell's enmity towards the Lannisters is a clear enough connecting point without the need to randomly bring Jaime and Bronn into the mix. That's just another example of dumbing down the show to appeal to the lowest common denominator. They didn't send Tyrion to Dragonstone to introduce us to Stannis. We knew how he connected to the story and he'd been mentioned previously. We didn't need a more tangible connection point. 

 

And if you're arguing that time was a constraint, it simply wasn't. This show uses its time so, so poorly. Stuffing Season 4 with filler, forcing in big episode 9 battles at the cost of time and money, meandering basically the first half of season 5. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

And yet that's exactly what they did.

 

And really? There's no human angle in book!Dorne? It's all about the human angle and the family dynamics. If you or D+D didn't like Arianne and Doran's relationship that's on you guys. It's not their job to make subjective judgements like that. Or it shouldn't be.

 

As for the connection to the main story, I don't see why you need preestablished characters there to see how it connects. The Martell's enmity towards the Lannisters is a clear enough connecting point without the need to randomly bring Jaime and Bronn into the mix. That's just another example of dumbing down the show to appeal to the lowest common denominator. They didn't send Tyrion to Dragonstone to introduce us to Stannis. We knew how he connected to the story and he'd been mentioned previously. We didn't need a more tangible connection point. 

 

And if you're arguing that time was a constraint, it simply wasn't. This show uses its time so, so poorly. Stuffing Season 4 with filler, forcing in big episode 9 battles at the cost of time and money, meandering basically the first half of season 5. 

The difference between her and Stannis is that Stannis was a major character who played a big role in the following 4 seasons. So far it doesn't look like she would have any role to play outside of Dorne. 

Even in the book is an incredibly frustrating inclusion for readers looking to follow on the story from the previous installments. Even at this point its unclear what role Dorne even has and whether it will have an major effect on the overall plot line. The fact that you were forced to leave your favourite characters behind and have to spend a lot time with a bunch of new characters and places that seemingly don't have any relevance to anything else was enough to make you want to tear your hair out. The Dorne plot line itself is decent enough, but it is a side story so far. Thats a luxury the tv simply doesn't have.

Repeating that frustration on screen would have a worse effect as TV audiences aren't as liable to stick with something as a book reader. 

So imagine the Dorne plotline, but without Jamie, without The Vipers Gf.. the only familiar character is Myrcella, played by a new actress and someone who most people will have forgotten exists. Imagine that plotline when it doesn't tie into Aegon or Quentyn. It doesn't work, its just a total irrelevance. 

[marsyao]

This was the most mind-boggling change of Season 5 for me.

 

Arianne is the driving POV of Dorne. She is the glue that holds that plotline together. If they were to cast any Dornish character for Season 5, you would think it would be Arianne. She fulfills all the prerequisites the writers seem to love, she's a strong-willed woman who is heavily involved in the game and seeks to make her own moves, in addition to being a curvy goddess who possesses the lustful sex appeal that they amped up to 11 with Oberyn in Season 4. Plenty potential for gratuitous nudity there. Her omission can't be justified by making room for other material because they spent a great amount of time and effort on the 3 Sand Snakes which was a total abortion. Ok, maybe they wanted to merge her plot with Ellaria, but with all the pointless shit they stuffed into Dorne in S5 it's indefensible how you don't include really the only Dornish character that matters at this point.

 

Does that mean these fabulous Sand Sankes are not good enough for you?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

How would she fit in? Her entire story is based around the rules of succession of Dorne and parts of Dorans plan that are simply not in the show. Shes a literal dead end in the show as it stands. 

 

I came up with a great way to include Arianne and have Trystane revealed to be Aegon, which would have made for a much more interesting Dorne, IMO.

 

Make Trystane slightly older (about the age of Jon), and then make Arianne about 18 years old.

 

1) No snake necklace.  Instead, Cersei receives a raven from Doran demanding the head of Gregor Clegane in justice for the murder of Elia and her children.  Cersei is mad though Jaime calms her and says that they can't afford a war against Dorne right now and points out that they have Myrcella.  Cersei lays a guilt trip on Jaime about releasing Tyrion, who killed their father, and then mentions that Myrcella wouldn't even be in Dorne if not for Tyrion. Jaime suggests going to Dorne and retrieving Myrcella on orders of Tommen, and to take the "head" of Gregor Clegane to Doran.  Jaime takes Bronn and a company of Lannister troops with him.

 

2) Ellaria talks with Trystane and Arianne and convinces him that if he elopes with Myrcella, under Dornish law, she should inherit the throne before Tommen, Trystane listens and agrees to consider it.  Brief scene with Doran and Arianne afterwards where they are discussing why Trystane and Myrcella haven't married, and discussing Dornish law in a bit more detail.  Doran brings up his concerns to Arianne that Myrcella might not be legitimate, and might instead be the daughter of Cersei and Jaime.

 

3) Jaime arrives, and delivers the "head" to Doran and gives him the royal decree demanding the Myrcella return to King's Landing.  Doran brings up the marriage deal to Jaime, and Jaime and he have a bit of verbal sparring.  Trystane is present and he insists on returning to King's Landing with his "bethrothed" but Doran denies his request, and Trystane storms off angry at his father.  Arianne seduces Bronn to try to glean information about whether Tommen and Myrcella are really Robert's or Jaime's children.

 

4) Arianne knows that Myrcella isn't legitimate, but convinces Trystane to go forward with Ellaria's plan anyways as that will make her the Princess of Dorne, telling Trystane that Doran will not avenge their uncle so they must.  Trystane finds Ellaria and agrees to go along with her plan to marry Myrcella and claim the Throne using Dornish Law.  The Sand snakes are present (without their power ranger weapons) and list Dornish houses that they feel they can sway to Trystane's claim.  Ellaria says that once they get the backing of those lords, Doran will be forced to rally the rest of his forces and join the attack, because splitting his forces would weaken him against the Lannisters.  

 

5) The marriage is planned, and there's a scene where Trystane talks to Myrcella and she agrees to elope, and right afterwards, Jaime, Bronn and Areo show up with orders from Doran for Myrcella to leave with Jaime.  Jaime walks over and grabs Myrcella and tells her she has to come with him.  Trystane becomes enraged and starts fighting with Jaime.  Myrcella tries to run between them to stop them, and Bronn tries to protect Jaime.  Bronn accidentally cuts Myrcella's face open trying to block Trystane's swing at Jaime.  Trystane then attacks Bronn while Jaime tends to Myrcella.  Trystane cuts him on the arm, and Bronn has to fight back to defend himself, and ends up cutting Trystane's hand or arm disarming him.  Areo Hotah steps in and cleaves Bronn's head off in one fell swoop and then restrains Trystane and tells Jaime to leave immediately with Myrcella.  

 

6) Doran meets with the Sandsnakes and sends Tyene to find out about the Faith Militant, Alleras to the Citadel with a sealed note for Archmaester Marwyn, and Obara with Jaime to King's Landing to act in his stead on the small council.  Jaime and Myrcella along with Obara set sail for Griffin's Roost where Doran has made arrangements for Myrcella's care with a very good Maester there.

 

7) Next scene is Doran with Trystane, Arianne, and Elliara.  He tells them that he found out about their plan to elope, and that they forced his hand.  He then reveals that he has no intention of bowing down the to Lannisters, that he's had his own plan for revenge, and the three of them are making it difficult.  He then tells Trystane that he is actually Aegon Targaryen, his grandson and that Varys had swapped him as a baby before Gregor got to Elia and her children and sent him to Doran to protect.  Doran had been plotting his revenge on the Lannisters ever since, making a deal with Illyrio to marry Arianne to Viserys when she came of age, and Viserys was supposed to be rallying an army in Essos and that once assembled, Illyrio would reveal to Viserys and Dany that Aegon was still alive and get them to come to Aegon and Dorne's aid against Westeros, in exchange Viserys would become the Prince of Dorne and rule it with Arianne after Doran's death.  Once Viserys died, and Dany created Dragons and later became a widow, Illyrio and Doran agreed that they should renew the old practice of Targaryens intermarrying and have Aegon marry Dany instead with Dorne putting it's full support behind them once they landed on Westeros.  And that they would get their vengeance through Fire and Blood.  Doran introduces Trystane to the leader of the Golden Company who have recently arrived in Dorne to support Trystane's claim.

 

8) Trystane has a meeting with the leader of the Golden Company, who presents him with the sword Blackfyre as his Birthright (also a clue that he might not be the real Aegon), and the leader pledges his service to Aegon/Trystane and asks when he wants to set sail for Mereen to propose to Dany.  Trystane states that he's not going to Mereen, and instead tells the Captain to prepare for an assault on Griffin's Roost.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think that is all good, its a definite improvement on what was actually on the show. However, its adding A LOT of complicated issues which may have very little consequence on the overall story.

A decision seems to have been made that the Aegon storyline goes nowhere and is only filling time up that could be better served elsewhere. I like your take on it, but you've just added to the overall load of the plot, potentially creating numerous headaches later on.

Plus you've added the golden company, Griffins Roost and a whole new f/aegon line. 

My personal opinion is that the Aegon , is he a targ or not, false pretender stuff is some of the worst parts of the books, I'm more than happy to leave them out if possible. That he seemingly has been left out suggests hes quite replaceable as a plot device. 

So overall, yes I liked your ideas, maybe with longer seasons it would be possible, and it would be better, but I totally understand why they didn't do that.

[King Behind The Wall]

On the hindsight, they should not have done Dorne last season at all. They should have stuck to the Young Griff storyline in season 5 and THEN go to Dorne in season 6, focusing on Arienne instead of sand snakes.

[protar]

The difference between her and Stannis is that Stannis was a major character who played a big role in the following 4 seasons. So far it doesn't look like she would have any role to play outside of Dorne. 

Even in the book is an incredibly frustrating inclusion for readers looking to follow on the story from the previous installments. Even at this point its unclear what role Dorne even has and whether it will have an major effect on the overall plot line. The fact that you were forced to leave your favourite characters behind and have to spend a lot time with a bunch of new characters and places that seemingly don't have any relevance to anything else was enough to make you want to tear your hair out. The Dorne plot line itself is decent enough, but it is a side story so far. Thats a luxury the tv simply doesn't have.

Repeating that frustration on screen would have a worse effect as TV audiences aren't as liable to stick with something as a book reader. 

So imagine the Dorne plotline, but without Jamie, without The Vipers Gf.. the only familiar character is Myrcella, played by a new actress and someone who most people will have forgotten exists. Imagine that plotline when it doesn't tie into Aegon or Quentyn. It doesn't work, its just a total irrelevance. 

 

Yes it would work. If they'd written Arianne well, people would have cared about her. 

 

I agree that it was frustrating to have so few of the fan favourites in Feast. However that's no reason to believe that Arianne is irrelevant. If anything it indicates the opposite: Martin felt the need to spotlight these new characters. And besides, the show wouldn't have that problem because it's a combined chronology. 

 

I don't see how you can argue that we needed to have Jaime in Dorne to ease us into the setting when absolutely nothing about Dorne in the show worked.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

  
 
I don't see how you can argue that we needed to have Jaime in Dorne to ease us into the setting when absolutely nothing about Dorne in the show worked.

Those two things aren't correlated. Dorne was bad because it was poorly implemented and written. The decision to bring Jamie in made sense. Seeing as how the river lands plot has been pushed to next season and cerceis major beef with Jamie is climaxing then, that would leave Jamie with nothing this year either.

[protar]

Those two things aren't correlated. Dorne was bad because it was poorly implemented and written. The decision to bring Jamie in made sense. Seeing as how the river lands plot has been pushed to next season and cerceis major beef with Jamie is climaxing then, that would leave Jamie with nothing this year either.

 

And why was the riverland's plot pushed forward? It seems to me like S6 will be touching on a lot of AFFC/ADWD material, probably because they shifted gears and decided to go at least 8 seasons instead of just 7. So it looks to me as though the majority of S5 will end up having very little relevance to the overall plot.

 

And Jaime in Dorne was absolutely one of the reasons the plot failed. Rather than actually putting in some effort and making us care about the new characters, they took the easy way out and instead inserted a couple of pre-existing characters. But Jaime got no development either. He has absolutely no reason to be in Dorne, and I don't mean in terms of narrative (though that too) I mean in terms of themes and character development. He has no personal link with Dorne. And then there's the fact that Jaime and Bronn in Dorne results in a kind of racist narrative in which the crazy, exotic foreign land is just used as an Orientalist back drop for wacky white hijinks.  

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

And why was the riverland's plot pushed forward? It seems to me like S6 will be touching on a lot of AFFC/ADWD material, probably because they shifted gears and decided to go at least 8 seasons instead of just 7. So it looks to me as though the majority of S5 will end up having very little relevance to the overall plot.

 

And Jaime in Dorne was absolutely one of the reasons the plot failed. Rather than actually putting in some effort and making us care about the new characters, they took the easy way out and instead inserted a couple of pre-existing characters. But Jaime got no development either. He has absolutely no reason to be in Dorne, and I don't mean in terms of narrative (though that too) I mean in terms of themes and character development. He has no personal link with Dorne. And then there's the fact that Jaime and Bronn in Dorne results in a kind of racist narrative in which the crazy, exotic foreign land is just used as an Orientalist back drop for wacky white hijinks.  

Jamie was there because the whole plot revolved around Myrcella dying, it was poorly done and could certainly have been improved but it had potential to work better. It made people realise who she even was for a start, and now Jamie comes back with her dead body and that links into the events that will happen between him and Cercei the future, which is far better motivation for him buggering off and her not wanting to see him. It completely make sense to do it that way.

The riverlands plot has been moved to this point because it couldn't be done this season, you have all the rest of the Northern plot to get through and I think there will be a big connection between these plots this season. It makes sense. You crowbar the Riverlands plot into this season, and what? It has no connection to anything else. 

The difference with the show is that its chronological, the books aren't, they jump back and forth in time constantly. Plus the seasons have a limited amount of locations and plots they can contain, so plots need to be pushed to a time when they can affect other ones. I keep saying this, but you guys just can't take in that fact, its like talking to a brick wall.
 

[protar]

Jamie was there because the whole plot revolved around Myrcella dying, it was poorly done and could certainly have been improved but it had potential to work better. It made people realise who she even was for a start, and now Jamie comes back with her dead body and that links into the events that will happen between him and Cercei the future, which is far better motivation for him buggering off and her not wanting to see him. It completely make sense to do it that way.

The riverlands plot has been moved to this point because it couldn't be done this season, you have all the rest of the Northern plot to get through and I think there will be a big connection between these plots this season. It makes sense. You crowbar the Riverlands plot into this season, and what? It has no connection to anything else. 

The difference with the show is that its chronological, the books aren't, they jump back and forth in time constantly. Plus the seasons have a limited amount of locations and plots they can contain, so plots need to be pushed to a time when they can affect other ones. I keep saying this, but you guys just can't take in that fact, its like talking to a brick wall.
 

 

Because you're not actually making any arguments, you're just saying "the show couldn't do it" over and over. Why not? You don't even need to spend much time on Jaime's AFFC story. Keep him in KL for most of S5 as his relationship with Cersei deteriorates and then send him off mid-late season. How can you say it wouldn't work at this point in the story when that's when it takes place in the books? We already have a great model of how these plots fit together. If it 'aint broken don't fix it. 

 

And okay, true enough there's some Jaime/Myrcella stuff that they could have capitalised on. But nonetheless, Jaime went nowhere season 5 and the decision to make a previously existing character the focal piece of Dorne was a lazy decision because they couldn't be bothered to actual develop the new Dornish characters.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Plus you've added the golden company, Griffins Roost and a whole new f/aegon line. 

My personal opinion is that the Aegon , is he a targ or not, false pretender stuff is some of the worst parts of the books, I'm more than happy to leave them out if possible. That he seemingly has been left out suggests hes quite replaceable as a plot device. 

So overall, yes I liked your ideas, maybe with longer seasons it would be possible, and it would be better, but I totally understand why they didn't do that.

 

Considering they've apparently decided to go 8 seasons instead of 7, I think there's room, plus the "additions" of f/Aegon, Griffin's Roost, and the Golden company would line up pretty closely with what's going on in the books, without adding much budget or time to the show at all, and only minus Jon Connington (though you COULD have the leader of the Golden Company reveal himself to be Jon Connington if you wanted to go that route).

[protar]

 

Considering they've apparently decided to go 8 seasons instead of 7, I think there's room, plus the "additions" of f/Aegon, Griffin's Roost, and the Golden company would line up pretty closely with what's going on in the books, without adding much budget or time to the show at all, and only minus Jon Connington (though you COULD have the leader of the Golden Company reveal himself to be Jon Connington if you wanted to go that route).

 

I think if they'd known all along that they'd be going 8 seasons then they would have been easily able to include Aegon and Arianne. From the rumours S6 is going to have a tonne of cut AFFC content so they're clearly back tracking now that they have more time. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Because you're not actually making any arguments, you're just saying "the show couldn't do it" over and over. Why not? You don't even need to spend much time on Jaime's AFFC story. Keep him in KL for most of S5 as his relationship with Cersei deteriorates and then send him off mid-late season. How can you say it wouldn't work at this point in the story when that's when it takes place in the books? We already have a great model of how these plots fit together. If it 'aint broken don't fix it. 

 

And okay, true enough there's some Jaime/Myrcella stuff that they could have capitalised on. But nonetheless, Jaime went nowhere season 5 and the decision to make a previously existing character the focal piece of Dorne was a lazy decision because they couldn't be bothered to actual develop the new Dornish characters.

If you want Jamie to stay in KL for most of this season, arguing with Cercei and shaking his head at her craziness, then fine, its not that bad an idea but its also just as much of a waste of his character. Really though its far better for him to be sent off when Mycella dies as its partly his fault it happened. So since that would probably happen at the end of season 5, thats an entire season of him just wandering shaking his head. 

And as I said, the Riverlands plot is seemingly being tied into a bunch of other plots this season, so it makes sense for it to occur in season 6. Having Jamie in the Riverlands season 5 would have been a total lame duck, what does he do there either, how does it tie into other plots? It doesn't... yet. 
 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Considering they've apparently decided to go 8 seasons instead of 7, I think there's room, plus the "additions" of f/Aegon, Griffin's Roost, and the Golden company would line up pretty closely with what's going on in the books, without adding much budget or time to the show at all, and only minus Jon Connington (though you COULD have the leader of the Golden Company reveal himself to be Jon Connington if you wanted to go that route).

Theres only room if the writers think there is room. Considering you now have 3 seasons to do 2.5 books worth of material (two of which haven't been written, and maybe more) why include a possibly dead end storyline that serves to do very little but complicate the rest of the story and add another layer of exposition. 

I think there is now more of a final push to get the story building up to the main plot climax, F/Aegon is pretty much plot scenery so far, serves very little purpose and is more of a side story. He seems easily cuttable.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Theres only room if the writers think there is room. Considering you now have 3 seasons to do 2.5 books worth of material (two of which haven't been written, and maybe more) why include a possibly dead end storyline that serves to do very little but complicate the rest of the story and add another layer of exposition. 

I think there is now more of a final push to get the story building up to the main plot climax, F/Aegon is pretty much plot scenery so far, serves very little purpose and is more of a side story. He seems easily cuttable.

 

Actually with Jon supposedly dead, I think it would be a really good distraction technique to make the viewer think they have a new hero to go get the Lannisters.  Of course, I think Aegon will actually sit the Throne for a short time until he's exposed as a Blackfyre.

[protar]

If you want Jamie to stay in KL for most of this season, arguing with Cercei and shaking his head at her craziness, then fine, its not that bad an idea but its also just as much of a waste of his character. Really though its far better for him to be sent off when Mycella dies as its partly his fault it happened. So since that would probably happen at the end of season 5, thats an entire season of him just wandering shaking his head. 

And as I said, the Riverlands plot is seemingly being tied into a bunch of other plots this season, so it makes sense for it to occur in season 6. Having Jamie in the Riverlands season 5 would have been a total lame duck, what does he do there either, how does it tie into other plots? It doesn't... yet. 
 

 

Again - how can you say that when Jaime in the Riverlands works just fine in the books? I think it's very naive of you to believe that this was planned. They were convinced by the HBO execs to go for an extra season so now they're back tracking and covering previously cut material to kill time. And it's not like he was doing anything in Dorne. I'd much rather they'd kept him in KL, showing his relationship with Cersei deteriorate and then send him off to the Riverlands near the end of the season.