Olenna did not poison Joff

[Lady Sharya]

Well, Tywin mentioned it as if it mattered when talking things over with Jaime. Maidenhood is thought of ridiculously highly. Also, in real life, marrying your brothers widow was bad during the middle ages. The whole Catheryn of Aragon deal. In general, it seems a bit... icky., giving the king his seconds is one thing, giving him his "sloppy second", if you'll excuse the crassness, is another.  
 
This is of course on top of the fact that Marg would have to actually sleep with him, of course.

I don't buy it at all. Ned wed his brothers betrothed because he died. No reason it would be taboo to marry a brother's wife...especially since Joffery married his uncles wife.:)
I'm sure the Tyrells could have found their way around that. You are the one pointing out how clever Margery is. Don't you think she could have easily postponed the event with her 13 year old husband? I know I could and I'm not that clever.;)

[chrisdaw]

it wasn't tyrion, he isn't that stupid. we have POV chapters proving it wasn't him.

He was stupid enough that same day to let it be known to Joff that he knew Joff organised Bran's attempted assassination, a stupidity that by Tyrion's own calculation put his life at risk. He was drunk as a skunk. Hiding information or providing false information in a POV would not be new. Jon's parentage in Ned's. The unkiss in Sansa's. Lemore's eye colour in Tyrion's.

Actually, Sansa got the hairnet from Littlefinger by way of Dontos.

But I think that Sansa's hairnet throws a big ol' monkey wrench in this theory. Sansa received it long before the wedding, so the plans were being worked out for quite some time. Tyrion making a snap decision to murder Joffrey at the last minute just doesn't add up. He didn't have the means handy.

Yes, for Tyrion to have poisoned Joff he'd have to make a snap decision and have the means available to him. That Tyrion would be keeping poison on his person for a just in case scenario seems unlikely, except he does exactly that in ADWD. Meanwhile, we're all just assuming Pycelle is lying at the trial.

That's the most intriguing thing I find, the text seems to go out of the way to give an answer for every seeming implausibility. That and that this would be the only time I believe combat by trial by the Faith has failed in finding the truthful verdict.

[Ygrain]

It's been suggested that there's a signal that the wine has been poisoned, which is when Lady Olenna remarks that she hadn't heard The Rains of Castamere for an hour and has forgotten the words. As to Margaery being in danger if she's the poisoner she'd know for sure when not to drink.

Glad to see that ideas are taking hold :-)

 

The Tyrells have plenty of opportunity to poison the chalice. After pouring the wine on Tyrion, Joffrey walks back to his seat. At that point, the chalice is accessable by Garlan, Garlan's wife, and Olenna, who has left her seat, and hobbled to Tyrion during the quarrel with Joffrey. Servants start carrying in the pie, the guests's attention is drawn to that, which gives any of those Tyrells the means and the opportunity to poison the wine. They know that Joffrey is drunk and angry and will return to finish the quarrel with Tyrion. They probably also know that the timing will implicate Tyrion. Littlefinger later hints to Sansa that this was planned all along:

As has been mentioned above, Olenna is too short - GRRM points out repeatedly how tiny she is, and Tyrion cannot reach the chalice without climbing onto his chair. This suggests that although Olenna was the mastermind, she had an accomplice(s) who did the job for her.

 

A person missing on your list is Butterbumps - sleight of hand, juggling and tossing objects, walking on sticks and freely moving around. He would be able to toss the poison into the wine without having to reach to it. Personally, I believe that the plot was kept in the family but I don't think that Butterbumps should be left out from the list.

 

Hiding information or providing false information in a POV would not be new. Jon's parentage in Ned's. The unkiss in Sansa's. Lemore's eye colour in Tyrion's.

Nah, not the same. Ned never spells out who Jon's parents are but gives a ton of hints. The unkiss almost happened, it's what Sandor came for. Lemore's eyes are never mentioned and it remains yet to be seen if they are significant or not - and if they are, it would be sloppy writing, just like Tyrion never ever hinting in any way at a poisoning he supposedly did.

[John Suburbs]

The poison was not in the wine. It was in the pie. The target was not Joffrey, but Tyrion. LF needed to get rid of Tyrion before he uncovered all his shady dealings with the crown's money. The Tyrells needed to get rid of Tyrion before he could father a son on Sansa and consolidate Casterly Rocks' other recent acquisitions in the Riverlands and the Neck to rival the military superiority that Highgarden has enjoyed for the past 1000 years or more.

 

LF needs Joffrey alive in order to foster the chaos he needs to acquire power. The Tyrells need Joffrey alive to father a son on Margy and cement their tie to the Iron Throne -- no Tommen or virgin Margy needed at that point.

 

Joffrey does not start choking until he puts the pie in his mouth, nearly half a minute after he gives himself multiple doses of wine. Cressen was dead in about five seconds.

 

All the silly rationalizations as to why this is not the plain and obvious truth will follow this post. But the reveal is likely to come out in the next book, and then we can all have a good laugh at them.

[Caspoi]

John Suburbs I always thought that the poison was in the pie but had forgotten that the pie was meant for Tyrion, is there any way for them to poison it after Joffrey decides to eat it?

[Ygrain]

The poison was not in the wine. It was in the pie. The target was not Joffrey, but Tyrion. LF needed to get rid of Tyrion before he uncovered all his shady dealings with the crown's money. The Tyrells needed to get rid of Tyrion before he could father a son on Sansa and consolidate Casterly Rocks' other recent acquisitions in the Riverlands and the Neck to rival the military superiority that Highgarden has enjoyed for the past 1000 years or more.

 

LF needs Joffrey alive in order to foster the chaos he needs to acquire power. The Tyrells need Joffrey alive to father a son on Margy and cement their tie to the Iron Throne -- no Tommen or virgin Margy needed at that point.

 

Joffrey does not start choking until he puts the pie in his mouth, nearly half a minute after he gives himself multiple doses of wine. Cressen was dead in about five seconds.

 

All the silly rationalizations as to why this is not the plain and obvious truth will follow this post. But the reveal is likely to come out in the next book, and then we can all have a good laugh at them.

Please, do not derail the thread into an argument over the theory of which you are the sole proponent.

 

John Suburbs I always thought that the poison was in the pie but had forgotten that the pie was meant for Tyrion, is there any way for them to poison it after Joffrey decides to eat it?

Neither after nor before.

[Light a wight tonight]

The poison was not in the wine. It was in the pie. The target was not Joffrey, but Tyrion. LF needed to get rid of Tyrion before he uncovered all his shady dealings with the crown's money. The Tyrells needed to get rid of Tyrion before he could father a son on Sansa and consolidate Casterly Rocks' other recent acquisitions in the Riverlands and the Neck to rival the military superiority that Highgarden has enjoyed for the past 1000 years or more.

 

LF needs Joffrey alive in order to foster the chaos he needs to acquire power. The Tyrells need Joffrey alive to father a son on Margy and cement their tie to the Iron Throne -- no Tommen or virgin Margy needed at that point.

 

Joffrey does not start choking until he puts the pie in his mouth, nearly half a minute after he gives himself multiple doses of wine. Cressen was dead in about five seconds.

 

All the silly rationalizations as to why this is not the plain and obvious truth will follow this post. But the reveal is likely to come out in the next book, and then we can all have a good laugh at them.

I was wondering when you'd chime in on this. Calling anything that isn't in accord with your ideas "silly rationalizations" and your own "plain and obvious truth" isn't going to win you any converts. There's just too much solid circumstantial evidence that the poison was in the wine to go with the pie theory. Tell us again how they could poison pie that was served to several people and not kill all of them. The Strangler dissolves in wine, which disguises its color. Wouldn't happen in pie. 

 

I, too, wait for the upcoming books, so we can see who does in fact get the last laugh. 

[John Suburbs]

I was wondering when you'd chime in on this. Calling anything that isn't in accord with your ideas "silly rationalizations" and your own "plain and obvious truth" isn't going to win you any converts. There's just too much solid circumstantial evidence that the poison was in the wine to go with the pie theory. Tell us again how they could poison pie that was served to several people and not kill all of them. The Strangler dissolves in wine, which disguises its color. Wouldn't happen in pie. 

 

I, too, wait for the upcoming books, so we can see who does in fact get the last laugh. 

 

The pie was not served to several people. It was for Tyrion and Tyrion alone. It was placed at his seat following the cutting.

 

Pigeon pie is purple too. See?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.reallynicerecipes.com/recipes/game/pigeon-pie14.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.reallynicerecipes.com/recipe/game/pigeon-pie&h=394&w=525&tbnid=MVcI9ERMhBn49M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=200&usg=__4imbCKHzhHLwqs2aiKs6jScuSK0=&docid=5iirwAR2DwNHnM&itg=1&hl=en

 

There is plenty of heat and moisture to dissolve something that has already been shown to dissolve in wine -- but perhaps not as quickly.

 

And the very use of the term "solid circumstantial evidence" is silly.

 

John Suburbs I always thought that the poison was in the pie but had forgotten that the pie was meant for Tyrion, is there any way for them to poison it after Joffrey decides to eat it?

 No. Once Joffrey takes the first bite, he is with it the whole time. He only takes one other bite before he starts choking. It had to have happened when the pie was behind the head table, either being held by a servant or on a serving table. The pie was served within seconds after the cutting, after all. All eyes look up at the pigeons and Lady O, who happens to be right there, tucks the crystal under the crust. No co-conspirators needed, and certainly far easier than reaching over a three-foot chalice that is standing square on the head table in front of hundreds of people.

 

 

Please, do not derail the thread into an argument over the theory of which you are the sole proponent.

 

I have every right to pose my answer to the OP. Mine just happens to be the correct one. Much more sensible than Lady O giving a signal to the entire Tyrell family that the wine is now poisoned. And if Joffrey had gone back to Margy for Lord Buckler's toast, what was she to do then? Break tradition and chivalric code by allowing Joffrey to drink first? And exactly how is she going to explain that away when the king drops dead moments later?

[GtrGbln]

Chrisdaw has been on this forum a long time and the OP is at least well thought out. I welcome this post in the many threats popping up to incite Jon & Stark bashing. ;)

 

First of all I don't care how long anyone has been on this board. I can't believe that you even think that makes a difference to anything. Second of all its not well thought out its just another "I've know something you don't" thread. 

[Lord_Tyrell]

The poison was not in the wine. It was in the pie. The target was not Joffrey, but Tyrion. LF needed to get rid of Tyrion before he uncovered all his shady dealings with the crown's money. The Tyrells needed to get rid of Tyrion before he could father a son on Sansa and consolidate Casterly Rocks' other recent acquisitions in the Riverlands and the Neck to rival the military superiority that Highgarden has enjoyed for the past 1000 years or more.

 

LF needs Joffrey alive in order to foster the chaos he needs to acquire power. The Tyrells need Joffrey alive to father a son on Margy and cement their tie to the Iron Throne -- no Tommen or virgin Margy needed at that point.

 

Joffrey does not start choking until he puts the pie in his mouth, nearly half a minute after he gives himself multiple doses of wine. Cressen was dead in about five seconds.

 

All the silly rationalizations as to why this is not the plain and obvious truth will follow this post. But the reveal is likely to come out in the next book, and then we can all have a good laugh at them.

Absolute twaddle. No way could he have pinpointed Tyrion for the pie. Tyrion is a drunk and not a glutton. A very stupid means to kill him when several members of the Royal Family would eat the pie first before Tyrion.

[chrisdaw]

It does not follow that if Tyrion's piece was poisoned that the whole pie must be. Poison could have been added by the servant that carried the pie. It's also an assumption that the cut pie was the same pie from which they all ate. Ceremonial pies and cakes of the like that birds fly out of are often just that, ceremonial, it's common that they would have such a pie/cake and then serve from a pie/cake in the kitchen.

[Ygrain]

Yes, it was a different cake than the ceremonial one, but please, do not be mislead by current serving customs of bringing each guests his individual portion from elsewhere. There are enough food descriptions in the series to see that GRRM sticks to the medieval custom of bringing whole items on the table and cutting them there for the guests. 

[John Suburbs]

More fanfic. There is no word of whole pies being laid on the head table to be cut before the guests. The sequence is exactly this from Tyrion's POV:

 

Pie is cut. Pigeons fly out. Crowd cheers. "Joff took his bride in his hands and whirled her about merrily." "A serving man place a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream."

 

Not: cut, pigeons, cheer, twirl, "then a servant placed a whole pie on the table and starting cutting slices for the guests."

 

Tyion's piece is served within seconds of the ceremony concluding. Plus, we have copious descriptions of the food, the servants serving the food, the guests eating the food, what people were wearing, how they acted... Nowhere does it say anything about servants bringing whole dishes to the head table to be doled out from there. If you have text that says this was done elsewhere in the story, please provide it, but it certainly wasn't being done at the royal wedding.

 

For that matter, do you have any links to this medieval food serving custom? Preferably ones that differentiate from today's custom of carving the turkey to include everything from the opening salad to the dessert?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

 

Do you not consider the chalice enough proof then? 

 

If she is unaware of the plot it removes the entire Tyrell family leaving no one to actually slip the poison in. 

Too me, it is pretty clear that Olenna poisoned the wine, but even if it wasn't her, it is very hard to find someone who would want to kill either Joffrey or Margaery and not care about killing the other. She had to know. 

 

Actually, it couldn't have been Olenna (well, almost couldn't). The chalice the royal couple drank from was what's technically called a Big Fucking Cup, three feet tall in its own right, and the Queen of Thorns is a small woman, it would've been very hard for her to do the deed inconspicuously. So most likely it had to be either Garlan or Leonette. BTW that conclusion is a byproduct of discussing the "Littlefinger poisoned Joffrey's pie" madness.

 

Margaery still would have to be in on the plot.

[Light a wight tonight]

It does not follow that if Tyrion's piece was poisoned that the whole pie must be. Poison could have been added by the servant that carried the pie. It's also an assumption that the cut pie was the same pie from which they all ate. Ceremonial pies and cakes of the like that birds fly out of are often just that, ceremonial, it's common that they would have such a pie/cake and then serve from a pie/cake in the kitchen.

Having a servant poison the pie just adds one more person to the plot, meaning one more link in the chain that can fail. In a poisoning at a coronation you want to control all factors as closely as possible, including possible leaks. As Doran Martel said, someone always tells. 

[Light a wight tonight]

Double post. Sorry

[Light a wight tonight]

More fanfic. There is no word of whole pies being laid on the head table to be cut before the guests. The sequence is exactly this from Tyrion's POV:

 

Pie is cut. Pigeons fly out. Crowd cheers. "Joff took his bride in his hands and whirled her about merrily." "A serving man place a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream."

 

Not: cut, pigeons, cheer, twirl, "then a servant placed a whole pie on the table and starting cutting slices for the guests."

 

Tyion's piece is served within seconds of the ceremony concluding. Plus, we have copious descriptions of the food, the servants serving the food, the guests eating the food, what people were wearing, how they acted... Nowhere does it say anything about servants bringing whole dishes to the head table to be doled out from there. If you have text that says this was done elsewhere in the story, please provide it, but it certainly wasn't being done at the royal wedding.

 

For that matter, do you have any links to this medieval food serving custom? Preferably ones that differentiate from today's custom of carving the turkey to include everything from the opening salad to the dessert?

What we do know is that the pie with live pigeons could not have been the same pie that was served. The pigeons would not have survived baking for one thing and the pie would have been contaminated with pigeon droppings for another. Bringing that pie into the discussion just serves to obfuscate things.

 

The pie that was served was cut somewhere, whether it was at the table or off to the side. Obviously the poison would have been added after cutting or lot of people would have died. That is IF the pie was poisoned at all. Big hole: Tyrion spilled the wine, so that could not be tested for Strangler, but there's no mention of the pie being tested. Joff apparently ate only a handful; there should have been some remainders.   

[John Suburbs]

Having a servant poison the pie just adds one more person to the plot, meaning one more link in the chain that can fail. In a poisoning at a coronation you want to control all factors as closely as possible, including possible leaks. As Doran Martel said, someone always tells. 

 

All the more reason why Garlen or anyone else did not do the wine: too many participants, too many mouths, and someone always tells. Plus, to imagine Garlen doing the deed you have to think he is the most duplicitous character in the book -- not the noble, chivalrous knight he appears to be, but a craven who would resort to a woman's or a eunuch's weapon to kill someone. This would be the same cowardly knight who donned Renley's armor and waded into the thick of the battle, BTW.

 

 

What we do know is that the pie with live pigeons could not have been the same pie that was served. The pigeons would not have survived baking for one thing and the pie would have been contaminated with pigeon droppings for another. Bringing that pie into the discussion just serves to obfuscate things.

 

The pie that was served was cut somewhere, whether it was at the table or off to the side. Obviously the poison would have been added after cutting or lot of people would have died. That is IF the pie was poisoned at all. Big hole: Tyrion spilled the wine, so that could not be tested for Strangler, but there's no mention of the pie being tested. Joff apparently ate only a handful; there should have been some remainders.   

 

 

Exactly, this is why the most logical solution is the servant holding the pie during the cutting ceremony and then serving it immediately upon its conclusion, just as the text states. Easiest thing in the world for a short woman like Lady O to pinch the crystal into the filling while the servant is looking up at the pigeon. She only needs to wait until one person is distracted, not a roomful of hundreds.

[chrisdaw]

Having a servant poison the pie just adds one more person to the plot, meaning one more link in the chain that can fail. In a poisoning at a coronation you want to control all factors as closely as possible, including possible leaks. As Doran Martel said, someone always tells. 

Obviously. Meaning that the total number of people required to carry out a plot by poisoning the pie would be two, the plotter and the servant, assuming the servant is not also the plotter. In comparison the going theory requires a minimum of three people involved.

[John Suburbs]

Obviously. Meaning that the total number of people required to carry out a plot by poisoning the pie would be two, the plotter and the servant, assuming the servant is not also the plotter. In comparison the going theory requires a minimum of three people involved.

 

But she doesn't even need the servant's involvement. He's already standing there holding the pie when the pigeons are released. When he glances up at the pigeons, in goes the crystal in the blink of an eye. Remember, the Tyrells are in charge of providing all the food, and Lady O could very easily have orchestrated the entire serving of the pie ("The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served now") to make it seem like she wanted the head table to be served immediately when in fact she wanted to know exactly where Tyrion's piece was to be at the exact moment it needed to be poisoned -- unlike the chalice, which followed an entirely unpredictable path to wind up right in front of Garlen.

 

Of course, we still have two plotters, Lady O and Littlefinger, but not three.