If R+L=J isnt true

[Rickyhunt]

I have been wondering if Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna son how does that change things? Can he no longer be one of the three heads? Is he disqualified from being Azor Ahai? Why did Ned not tell anyone the truth about Jon's parents then? He wouldn't have to protect him and what does it mean for Jon?

Would you be disappointed if R+L=J isn't true?

[zammey12]

I wouldn't be disappointed, but I would be surprised. I think too many hints and evidence exist for it not to be true.

[Orphalesion]

I would be very disappointed because then there would have been no reason to not just tell us who Jon Snow's mother was (or at last to frag the reveal out for so long) 

Plus there's all those clues that practically scream that conclusion at you. 

 

Like if Lyanna didn't die in childbirth, what did she die of in her bed of blood? Cholera? And what was the promise? Ned's dead so the promise has to effect a character who's still running around. Otherwise that plotpoint was unnecessary And if there's something I hate it's unnecessary stuff.

[DanïelNorth]

Depends on whose son he is then. If he was simply the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne, he could become the Sword of the Morning, and thus possibly Azor Ahai. If he was the son of some fisherman's daughter or wetnurse the mystery wouldn't make sense but he would still be descended from the kings of Winter.

[Orphalesion]

Depends on whose son he is then. If he was simply the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne, he could become the Sword of the Morning, and thus possibly Azor Ahai. If he was the son of some fisherman's daughter or wetnurse the mystery wouldn't make sense but he would still be descended from the kings of Winter.

 

True Ashara Dayne is a possibility. But then we'd still have some things that would make little sense 1) The Bed of Blood 2) Promise Me Ned 3) Ned takng Jon to the North, instead of leaving him in Dorne where he'd have an easier life.

 

Are there alternative theories what "Promise me, Ned" is all about?

[SevasTra82]

I wouldn't be disappointed, but I would be surprised. I think too many hints and evidence exist for it not to be true.

 

I agree.  Saying R+L=J isn't true is like saying the sky isn't blue.  At this point, it's so bloody obvious that it's impossible to think of reasons for it *not* to be true.  

 

People just hate to admit that they already figured out a major plot twist in the story....but that's what happens when we have 20 years to dwell on the subject.

[Regular John Umber]

If it's not true, then all of our assumptions about what is going on in ASOIAF are wrong. And I consider that to be a good thing! I'd hate to think that this series I have given so much time to turned out to be blinking obvious.

If R+L <> J then we have to question everything about Rahegar, everything about Lyanna, everything about the rebellion and harrenhal, and I have no problem with that!

[Orphalesion]

If it's not true, then all of our assumptions about what is going on in ASOIAF are wrong. And I consider that to be a good thing! I'd hate to think that this series I have given so much time to turned out to be blinking obvious.

If R+L <> J then we have to question everything about Rahegar, everything about Lyanna, everything about the rebellion and harrenhal, and I have no problem with that!

 

As somebody who usually has stories figured out before the halfway mark and ho doesn't need shocking twists to find something enjoyable, I have to would not say it is a bad thing that readers have figured out R+L=J. Rather I'd say the clues were well crafted.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

I believe 95% in R+L=J, that being said, I would be perfectly happy, if not happier for it not to be true. I don't really care who Jon's parents are, never really have. I think he's fine as Ned's bastard, but then, he has never been my favourite character  :dunno:

[Ser Jampot]

GRRM has said all prophcies i this series are 'non-literal'. I reckon Jon snows story is gonna be way different from what people realise.

[ConfusedCounselor]

I have been wondering if Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna son how does that change things? Can he no longer be one of the three heads? Is he disqualified from being Azor Ahai? Why did Ned not tell anyone the truth about Jon's parents then? He wouldn't have to protect him and what does it mean for Jon?

Would you be disappointed if R+L=J isn't true?

 

Yes, I'd be disappointed. It would devalue the series a lot.

 

The rest is a bit weird. What does it mean if what we know for 99% certain is in fact not true, for theories that are unresolved and full of conjecture? 

What does it mean for the Goldbach conjecture if basic addition "isn't true"? 

[~DarkHorse~]

I would be very disappointed. There is such a thing as a red herring and then there is just plain trolling the readers. Some people value the 'shocks' in the series, but the R+L=J hints would just feel too forced and out of place if R+L=J is not true. If "promise me, Ned" was not about Jon, then why keep the promise a secret? If Jon really is Ashara's son then why did Ned say Wylla was the mother? Why did he not just tell Catelyn and why did he let Jon join the Night's Watch without given him the chance to know his mother's family?

 

I do like the idea of Jon being half Dayne. There is still potential for him if N+A=J. He could wield Dawn and House Dayne are mysterious, they potentially have links to the original Azor Ahai/Lightbringer, so he could still be Azor Ahai and remain Ned's son.

 

However, like I said, it leaves allot of loop holes and makes Ned look bad.

[Cragen]

GRRM has said all prophcies i this series are 'non-literal'. I reckon Jon snows story is gonna be way different from what people realise.

R+L=J is not prophecy it's theory.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

I have been wondering if Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna son how does that change things? Can he no longer be one of the three heads? Is he disqualified from being Azor Ahai? Why did Ned not tell anyone the truth about Jon's parents then? He wouldn't have to protect him and what does it mean for Jon?

Would you be disappointed if R+L=J isn't true?

 

- GRRM has said that the 3 heads don't need to be Targaryens

- Azor Ahai was a blacksmith. Jon doesn't need to be a Targaryen to fulfill the role of Azor Ahai when the whole point of Azor Ahai was that he was a nobody. And Azor Ahai and TPTWP are not the same things as far as we know. Just because Aemon and Melisandre believe them to be doesn't make it that they are so Jon never had to be Rhaegar's son to fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy

 

As to whether I'd be disappointed if RLJ isn't true, no not at all. We're 5 books in and RLJ has been nothing but an easter egg for us. It hasn't meant anything to the story so it's impossible to be disappointed as RLJ is entirely a future theory. RLJ can only matter for future books as it hasn't yet, and I don't know where the story's planning on going so I can't exactly be disappointed now can I? 5 books in and the story's worked perfectly fine with Jon being Ned's son so the only way I could be disappointed is if I built up this fan fiction in my head to such an extent that I could never see Jon being Ned's son and would need for him to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Which would be foolish as you'd have to ignore that for 5 books now it's been nothing but an easter egg and done for shock value so far.

 

And anyways, it's not like there's any actual piece of evidence for RLJ. What people tend to cite as evidence and clues for RLJ are not actually. They're clues and evidence for R+L=X, or clues and evidence for E+W=/=J. Neither of which are actually R+L=J. People tend to forget that RLJ requires the evidence to link specifically Rhaegar and Lyanna to Jon specifically. Of which there is none that do that. People have just decided that the evidence for R+L=X and E+W=/=J mean R+L=J when they're not the same things at all.

[DigitalCount]

"Promise me Ned" and everything associated seems to be the link you're looking for.

[watcher of the night]

I would be neither surprised nor dissapointed.

[WolfgangII]

 

- GRRM has said that the 3 heads don't need to be Targaryens

- Azor Ahai was a blacksmith. Jon doesn't need to be a Targaryen to fulfill the role of Azor Ahai when the whole point of Azor Ahai was that he was a nobody. And Azor Ahai and TPTWP are not the same things as far as we know. Just because Aemon and Melisandre believe them to be doesn't make it that they are so Jon never had to be Rhaegar's son to fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy

 

As to whether I'd be disappointed if RLJ isn't true, no not at all. We're 5 books in and RLJ has been nothing but an easter egg for us. It hasn't meant anything to the story so it's impossible to be disappointed as RLJ is entirely a future theory. RLJ can only matter for future books as it hasn't yet, and I don't know where the story's planning on going so I can't exactly be disappointed now can I? 5 books in and the story's worked perfectly fine with Jon being Ned's son so the only way I could be disappointed is if I built up this fan fiction in my head to such an extent that I could never see Jon being Ned's son and would need for him to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Which would be foolish as you'd have to ignore that for 5 books now it's been nothing but an easter egg and done for shock value so far.

 

And anyways, it's not like there's any actual piece of evidence for RLJ. What people tend to cite as evidence and clues for RLJ are not actually. They're clues and evidence for R+L=X, or clues and evidence for E+W=/=J. Neither of which are actually R+L=J. People tend to forget that RLJ requires the evidence to link specifically Rhaegar and Lyanna to Jon specifically. Of which there is none that do that. People have just decided that the evidence for R+L=X and E+W=/=J mean R+L=J when they're not the same things at all.

 

You made a very good point. I believe in RLJ, but I'm aware until its written in the books, its just a theory. My only "evidence" of E+W=/=J is that Eddard didn't think of Jon as his son when recollecting his children:

 

"If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?" - Eddard, A Game of Thrones

 

(We could argue Ned, a noble, did not consider his bastard the same as his truborn children, but I feel that will be out-of-character). So if Jon is not Eddard's son, so who is it? A lot of people seems to think Jon looks like a Stark (Arya, Catelyn, Qorin Halfhand). And Eddard said he is his blood:

 That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know." — Eddard, A Game Of Thrones

[King of the Narrow Sea]

"Promise me Ned" and everything associated seems to be the link you're looking for.

 

Was this directed to me? Because where is the promise me associated with Jon? Promise me isn't an R+L=J clue as it's only ever associated with Lyanna and sometimes Rhaegar. It's an R+L=X clue. If you want to actually associate it with a specific someone however, than it's an R+L=D clue as promise me actually pops up around discussions of Dany quite often.

 

 

“Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.”
“I promise.” Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed.
“The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it... not too late... talk to them... Varys, Littlefinger... don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be... better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.”

 

But anyways this was exactly what I was talking about where people have taking things and declared them R+L=J clues when they're not. An R+L=J clue requires the clue to be tied to all 3 people specifically. You wouldn't say that 5+3=9 when 9-5=4 instead of 3. The R+L clue needs to be tied to Jon for it to be an R+L=J clue. Of which there isn't actually any clue that results int specifically R+L=J

 

 

You made a very good point. I believe in RLJ, but I'm aware until its written in the books, its just a theory. My only "evidence" of E+W=/=J is that Eddard didn't think of Jon as his son when recollecting his children:

 

(We could argue Ned, a noble, did not consider his bastard the same as his truborn children, but I feel that will be out-of-character). So if Jon is not Eddard's son, so who is it? A lot of people seems to think Jon looks like a Stark (Arya, Catelyn, Qorin Halfhand). And Eddard said he is his blood:

 

Yes exactly. These are E+W=/=J clues as they all point to Jon not being Ned's son. As are I would say Bran's vision of Ned hoping for two boys to grow up close as brothers (if he's talking about Robb and Jon than he's implying that they're not brothers), and the 1993 synopsis saying that there's a mystery to Jon's parentage that will be revealed and allow him to have sex with Arya as they're tormented by the fact that they're brother and sister and that would otherwise be wrong.

 

But again, an E+W=/=J clue does not automatically mean that it's an R+L=J clue. Jon not being Eddard and Wylla's child does not automatically make him Rhaegar and Lyanna's child.

[DigitalCount]

There is more to it than that (which I suppose I'll have to post from a computer) but suffice it to say I'm getting a little tired of the willful contrarian-ism that seems to be so popular around here nowadays.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

True Ashara Dayne is a possibility. But then we'd still have some things that would make little sense 1) The Bed of Blood 2) Promise Me Ned 3) Ned takng Jon to the North, instead of leaving him in Dorne where he'd have an easier life.

 

Are there alternative theories what "Promise me, Ned" is all about?

 

Well see that's the thing. This isn't actually ever stated anywhere in the text. You will find no reference to Ned ever having Jon with him at any point of the Rebellion or his journeys during that timeframe.

 

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with him at the Trident

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with him at the Sack of King's Landing or afterwards for Robert's coronation and the presentation of Aegon and Rhaenys' bodies

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with at the Siege of Storm's End

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with him at the TOJ

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with him at Starfall when he returned Dawn

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with him at King's Landing when he and Robert grieved over Lyanna's death

- No one mentions how Ned had baby Jon with him at Barrowton when he returned Lord Dustin's horse to Lady Barbrey

 

There is no evidence that Ned ever took Jon north or out of Dorne at all. Jon's first appearance is at Winterfell with nothing in the text saying he was ever anywhere before with Ned in any of Ned's known locations. Fans created where Jon came from. The books don't ever have him anywhere but Winterfell.