Jump to content

Woman with a monkey tail, possible suspect


Recommended Posts

Or rather, a clever hint to what her story might have been, at the time her actions may have ended the Long Night.

She may be a reference to Ariadne, of Greek mythology.

  • Long story short, Ariadne was the daughter of King Minos of Crete (of the Minoan civilisation, which gave rise to the Atlantis myth, itself a huge source for the Doom). King Minos had a labyrinth at the centre of which was the Minotaur, who liked to eat people. Theseus, the Athenian "hero" went to kill the Minotaur, but was only able to do that because Ariadne helped him.

 

Here's the relevant AWOIAF quote:

 

There's theories that the "tail" is a hint at either skinchanging or human-animal hybrids. I'm not saying either isn't right, but rather, that there may be another hint here.

 

The woman with the plan(t)

 

"Monkey tail" is a name for "heliotropum curassavicum", a type of heliotrope (sun-following plant) more commonly known as "Chinese parsley".

 

"Chinese parsley" is itself a common name for coriander (or cilantro). It's a bit weird, but turns out the two plants (the monkey-tail heliotrope and coriander) are unrelated, but they can both be called "Chinese parsley".

 

Monkey tail = "Chinese parsley" = coriander.

 

Coriander in mythology

Coriander is where it gets interesting, which you don't hear often enough about a herb. It's main mythological association is with Ariadne, who is heavily connected with it, and is depicted holding it.

 

There's also a possibility the word coriander itself is related to Ariadne's name. The oldest Linear B script version (Mycenean, not Minoan) is "ko-ri-ja-dna", and it's speculated that it gave rise to both "coriander" and "Ariadne".

So Ariadne is the woman with the coriander, or "Chinese parsley". Or, through a mistranslation (by a maester?) the woman with the monkey tail?

 

Shame

Back to WOIAF: the woman with the monkey tail is mentioned in the context of her deeds averting disaster, after the sun had hid its face in shame. She's a woman who "saved the day" (literally), which is the role Ariadne plays (figuratively) in the Theseus myth.

In the Greek myth, the Minotaur itself is described as a source of great shame for the palace. The Minotaur was the son of the King's wife, whom Poseidon cursed with a lust for a sacred white bull - which she indulged, and gave birth to the Minotaur.

 

So both Ariadne and the woman with the monkey tail are connected with ending/killing a great shame.

I'm thinking that these are all hints meant to help flesh out the story of the Long Night, as told across WOIAF in bits and pieces. This part says: there was a "heroic" female, with an Ariadne-like story.

Dany and Ariadne

Dany in ACOK is heavily associated with the Theseus myth.

The most obvious is her journey in the House of the Undying, which is Theseus' journey. The House is a labyrinth (always turning the same way is a classic instruction for how to not get lost), there is a danger at the centre, and she destroys it. More than that, Drogon actively plays the role of Ariadne here, to Dany's Theseus - he guides her through the labyrinth, especially with the final door.

The more subtle Ariadne hint in ACOK is the Qartheen boob dress. "Sleeping Ariadne" is one of the best known antique sculptures, and she's reclining in a dress that exposes one of her breasts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Ariadne. By itself, it's nothing, but in the context of Dany's entire arc in ACOK, I reckon it's a bit more than nothing.

This whole thing may have been a one-off, ACOK-only use of the Theseus/Ariadne imagery to develop Dany's story, but it's interesting GRRM would then (maybe) expressly resurrect Ariadne imagery in TWOIAF.

Poor Ariadne

So hopefully there's no further associations between Dany and Ariadne, because her story is kind of sad.

She falls in love with Theseus, helps him through the labyrinth (you could say she betrays her own people to do that - the bull is her half brother), Theseus takes her back to Athens with her (so far so good!), only to abandon her on the way. Ariadne, broken hearted, becomes a consort to Dionysus, the dying-and-resurrected god.

Theseus, the "hero", sure looks like he betrayed Ariadne, the actual hero.

Love... betrayal... Dany... do not mix!

I hope I don't smell foreshadowing.

Something you didn't mention is that Monkey's tail is a purple flower, a clear reference to Daynes, Valyria, and Dany. The Blood betrayal was caused by the death of the Amethyst Empress at the hands of her brother. Amethyst is a purple crystal. The Blood stone Emperor mean while taking a Tiger woman to wife. Dany mentions the bright eyed people of yi-ti with there tiger tail hats, a reference to this Tiger woman likely. Tigers eye is mentioned as one of the rings of Illyrio, Tigers eye is a stone that is normally Golden like a cats eye which is a reference to the COTF. There is also a Blue Tigers Eye though also known as Hawks Eye. Both a reference to the Others and their connection to the Children, but also to Ser Artys Arryn, an Andal who rode a Falcon, a type of Hawk. Andals are also known for having blue eyes.

I know Martin has strong inspirations from The Hundred Years War and its subsequent War of the Roses, The Legends of Atlantis, The Legends of Arthur, and also the Biblical legends of both Noah and Abraham father of many faiths. There is another very strong inspiration though that tells a lot about the more mysterious Dawn Age. The Norse Myths of Ymir and Odin and Loki and all of these guys who are actually 3 different races, The Vanir/Mountain Giants, The Jotar/Ice Giants, and the Aesir/Fire Giants. It gives you a good idea of the struggle of Fire and Ice, Wolves, Ravens, Dwarfs who make magical weapons and skin changers.

The Woman with the Monkeys tail is likely the the daughter of the Amethyst Empress/ Nissa Nissa by her brother Azor Ahai/ The Bloodstone Emperor. Who are the ancestors to House Dayne and the Targaryen peoples. Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa the product of Fire and Ice coming together. The Bloodstone Emperor who should be purple is actually green and red. Well if you break green you do get blue (needed to create purple) but also has yellow(Gold) a sign of the COTF, or at least the "powers" given by the Black stone. Either way, he has a lil taint or something extra. He is brought down by his daughter with his sister, and im guessing two other sons. Each of the kids representing a piece of the House that will need to come back together. Hence the Importance of Lannister, Stark, and Dayne blood being re-entered into the Valyrian line, which has become diluted with the blood of lesser men. The Targaryens who seem like the Fire Giants Aesir (of which Odin is of through his father, his mother being of Ice (jotar)) have a hard time reproducing. The Others do to though, so im guessing the Others are born of this same alliance. So the main fight is between two halves of the same family, the Targaryens and the Others. Or Land and water (Fire and Ice), which tells you anything related to the sea is on the side of Ice. (Starks, Iron Islanders, HIghtowers, Manderlys, Merlings, mermaids, etc). Cause what do volcanoes make? Land, which is robbing the sea of real estate. Or so i speculate. Which in the Norse myth, the Wolves are also on the side of Ice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a very interesting reading. I knew the story of the Minotaur but I never knew about Ariadne's connection to coriander. The Sleeping Ariadne statue's dress really does resemble the 'qartheen boob dress'. When I read this myth in TWOIAF, I had associated it with the Japanese myth of Amaterasu and Ame-no-Uzume.

Your interpretation delves really deeply into the books so I find it really compelling. I also love the association with labyrinths and how well it ties into LmL's astronomy. Anyway, for the sake of reference, I'm going to leave this here. I think it could be illuminating in other ways.

Amaterasu is the Shinto sun goddess. She is considered the most important/leader of the shinto gods. Her brother Susanoo is a storm god who treated her with disrespect. He tossed a flayed horse at her loom, vandalized her fields and killed one of her attendants. She was so angry, she hid in a cave and refused to come out. The goddess of dance, mirth and dawn, Ame-no-Uzume placed a mirror beneath a tree directed at the opening of the cave and the other gods and goddesses had a party outside the cave to lure her out. She wouldn't come out. So Ame-no-Uzume did a comical and shocking dance right outside the cave. The other gods and goddess loved it and laughed like crazy. Amaterasu became so curious she peeked out of the cave and saw her own reflection. She was then pulled out by the other gods and goddesses and persuaded to rejoin the world. Susanoo was banished from heaven. He later reconciles with her after giving her a sword he found in the body of a great serpent. Ame-no-Uzume was later sent by Amaterasu to deal with Sarutahiko (a monkey deity)  who hinders the gods by blocking the crossroads between heaven and earth. Amaterasu believes that Ame-no-Uzume is the only one who can confront him and persuade him to let the heavenly gods govern the earth. She shocks him into revealing his plans and it turns out he was only there to help escort Amaterasu's grandson as a sign of respect. He also marries Ame-no-Uzume.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi there, very nice topic.

I was thinking about the monkey tail thing and remebered about a famous figure in China culture (Asia again), so i went to it's wiki and found out this...

"According to the legend, Sun Wukong, or Monkey King, was born from a magic stone that sat on the top of a mountain, that had been receiving the powers of the heavens and the earth since the beginning of time and had thereby gained miraculous powers." .... "The stone developed a magic womb, which burst open one day to produce a stone egg about the size of a ball."

And this:

"Sun knows 72 transformations, which allow him to transform into various animals and objects; however, he is troubled in transforming into other forms, due to the accompanying incomplete transformation of his tail."

 

Also about the Tyrion-Monkey similarities i think it fits well, not only by his fisical apperance but because of his good humor, even in child books the monkeys many times represent an unfitting humurous character, the same goes for Sun Wukong wich is kind of a joker in Chinese Mithology, he is trickster and have multiple powers (as the card game jokers), Tyirion seem to fit very well with this joker/trickster traits too and does not seem to fit (no jokes intendes) in any place(in the conservator noble society of westros). And there is mushroom who is an ironic lusty dwarf similar to Tyrion in some ways, and he is a jester.

And there's another parallel between Tyrion and Sun Wukong. The Jade Emperror invites Sun Wukong to his celestial palace, the Monkey King goes thinking that he will be honored, but instead he got the worst job among the gods, being the horses protector, so he would be the stables watcher, and Tyrion is sinikary sent by his father to be the manager of the sewers (considered as a low job by the higborn, both are taking a lesson of humility by a higher figure in hierarchy, the difference is that in the end Sun Wukong create havoc instead of accomplish his duty like Tyrion.

Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with, but as u people where talking about profecies, i couldn't stop me from thinking about Quaithe that supposely tells Dany's future, and is from de Eastern side of Essos too.

Anyway, u gave me a lot to think about, so i think i'm going to reread AWOIAF searching for more mythological and historic references that could be clues for what's coming next. Thanks a lot for creating this topic and sorry if there is much english errors, it is not my natural language.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi there, very nice topic.

I was thinking about the monkey tail thing and remebered about a famous figure in China culture (Asia again), so i went to it's wiki and found out this...

"According to the legend, Sun Wukong, or Monkey King, was born from a magic stone that sat on the top of a mountain, that had been receiving the powers of the heavens and the earth since the beginning of time and had thereby gained miraculous powers." .... "The stone developed a magic womb, which burst open one day to produce a stone egg about the size of a ball."

And this:

"Sun knows 72 transformations, which allow him to transform into various animals and objects; however, he is troubled in transforming into other forms, due to the accompanying incomplete transformation of his tail."

 

Also about the Tyrion-Monkey similarities i think it fits well, not only by his fisical apperance but because of his good humor, even in child books the monkeys many times represent an unfitting humurous character, the same goes for Sun Wukong wich is kind of a joker in Chinese Mithology, he is trickster and have multiple powers (as the card game jokers), Tyirion seem to fit very well with this joker/trickster traits too and does not seem to fit (no jokes intendes) in any place(in the conservator noble society of westros). And there is mushroom who is an ironic lusty dwarf similar to Tyrion in some ways, and he is a jester.

And there's another parallel between Tyrion and Sun Wukong. The Jade Emperror invites Sun Wukong to his celestial palace, the Monkey King goes thinking that he will be honored, but instead he got the worst job among the gods, being the horses protector, so he would be the stables watcher, and Tyrion is sinikary sent by his father to be the manager of the sewers (considered as a low job by the higborn, both are taking a lesson of humility by a higher figure in hierarchy, the difference is that in the end Sun Wukong create havoc instead of accomplish his duty like Tyrion.

Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with, but as u people where talking about profecies, i couldn't stop me from thinking about Quaithe that supposely tells Dany's future, and is from de Eastern side of Essos too.

Anyway, u gave me a lot to think about, so i think i'm going to reread AWOIAF searching for more mythological and historic references that could be clues for what's coming next. Thanks a lot for creating this topic and sorry if there is much english errors, it is not my natural language.

Yes! Sunwukong! I came across him while looking for a mythological counterpart for a "twisted monkey demon."

Hes even got a Lightbringer-like spear! And rock-born, like Mithras. Stone egg, that sounds familiar. It's very harmonious with the Mithras-based Azor Ahai lore and other dragon lore he's already developed, so to me it seems like George is grabbing Sunwukong for a twisted monkey demon version of a Lightbringer warrior. All of which indicates Tyrion is a Targ, which I think is true regardless. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure if all those things are coincidences or not, but i know George Martin really researched lots of mythological and medieval stuff for ASOIAF series, so for sure all the the authors if WOIAF must have done some similar researches, even if not so deep as for the other book. And i have to say that searching for references to use as evidences when formulating theories is some fun, even if we can't be sure, and maybe never will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martins wrote almost all of TWOIAF and all of the new material, all the eastern stuff, so that monkey tail stuff  is definitely his doing. And the Tyrion - monkey references are plentiful all throughout the main series. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

And there was me thinking that 'woman with a monkey tail' was a foreshadowing of when Dany is aided by Tyrion in ending the Second Long Night...the more you know, right?

It could have manifold meaning though too ;)

Hey btw, been working on a thread of the history of Asoiaf if your interested. It's not much of a theory really as it is just a collection of notes from the book. The aim was to try and settle certain facts or theories. 

I think it does narrow down when the Andals came and other things, but definitely through a couple of my theories out, or rather, they're in need of reworking. Let me know any thoughts, haven't gotten any feed back yet positive or other wise lol 

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136202-a-river-of-time-group-project-new-proof-settling-when-andals-arrived/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It could have manifold meaning though too ;)

Hey btw, been working on a thread of the history of Asoiaf if your interested. It's not much of a theory really as it is just a collection of notes from the book. The aim was to try and settle certain facts or theories. 

I think it does narrow down when the Andals came and other things, but definitely through a couple of my theories out, or rather, they're in need of reworking. Let me know any thoughts, haven't gotten any feed back yet positive or other wise lol 

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136202-a-river-of-time-group-project-new-proof-settling-when-andals-arrived/

Always interested in your theories my friend! I'll gladly look into it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Always interested in your theories my friend! I'll gladly look into it.

Thank you, much appreciated bro!! Im trying not to call it a "theory though" lol More a reordering of events based on textual evidence, and a group project to be open to change based on majority consensus. That way if im wrong, oh well haha not meant to be about being right or wrong, just reanalyzing in a different format :) Theories will come later haha

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, much appreciated bro!! Im trying not to call it a "theory though" lol More a reordering of events based on textual evidence, and a group project to be open to change based on majority consensus. That way if im wrong, oh well haha not meant to be about being right or wrong, just reanalyzing in a different format :) Theories will come later haha

 

If it's putting forward a new interpretation of things, then it's a theory in my book. I had a read of it, and it was very interesting indeed. I think that some of your ideas will be very helpful for my own theories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it's putting forward a new interpretation of things, then it's a theory in my book. I had a read of it, and it was very interesting indeed. I think that some of your ideas will be very helpful for my own theories.

Haha, cant argue there lol and thank you very much, i hope we can all get it further and i really look forward to reading some new threads put out by you :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haha, cant argue there lol and thank you very much, i hope we can all get it further and i really look forward to reading some new threads put out by you :)

I am working on one now, but it currently runs to about ten pages in Word (unedited). Clearly I need to find the time to do some major revision of it before I post! Added to that, I write slower than GRRM himself, but when I finally have it finished I'll let you know!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am working on one now, but it currently runs to about ten pages in Word (unedited). Clearly I need to find the time to do some major revision of it before I post! Added to that, I write slower than GRRM himself, but when I finally have it finished I'll let you know!

Lmao hey what ever is needed to get your idea across. I write slow as snot too lol Cant wait to read it tho!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...