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Merging Story Lines


Curled Finger

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@dornishdame--I was hoping you would find your way back here after a real Arienne 2 and The Forsaken were made available to us!    It's so good to see you and wonderful to see how your positions are shifting.  Let's do this then, as there is so much to talk about!

 I am not yet sure how quickly Euron will put him out of his misery.   I read no less than 4 slightly different versions of this chapter and listened to probably 4 more.  There is no telling since we don't have the real deal on notablog, but I was left with the impression Aeron was DED.  

I wonder if there is something that he wants Aeron to see, or to know of something that Euron is planning to carry out?  I went immediately to Dany's visions at THOTU disjointed and unclear as they were.   (I'd LOVE some feed back from you on Aeron's visions, by the way!)  I figured that was all we would get and took those visions to be the point of the chapter.   Well, the visions and the knowledge that Euron is headed straight for Vic to cause more havoc.   As an aside, do you think it's possible Aeron's visions are so reminiscent of Dany's in THOTU because the warlocks are so close?

I know I have said before that I thought Asha was for the chop in Winds, but I am starting to reconsider this.  I think that seeing Theon is alive may give her something to live for, and that was my concern - if her story had run its course, then she would be ripe for a good, bloody death.  But Theon coming back to her may change that; even if I do think it unlikely that he makes it through Winds. Theon, though, appears to be at the end of his redemption arc.  He has gone from Theon to Reek to Theon again, and I think that the Northerners will either demand Stannis executes him, or do it themselves.  Stannis believes in justice and that a good act does not wipe out the bad (remember Davos and his fingers?) so I can see him carrying out the execution.  As for Victarion, since I seem to be dealing with the Iron Islands POVs first, I think he is as doomed as Euron wants him to be.  That is to say, very.  So by the end of Winds, I think Asha could very well be our only Iron Islands POV.  So maybe I have moved her into the survival column?   I continue to hope for great things from Asha and I think you're right about her reunion with Theon.  The good does not wipe out the bad, just so, Dame.  Still Davos was only maimed, not killed and Theon did not kill Bran or Rickon.   There may be salvation in that.   Maybe.    I miss Stannis, can't wait for a whole lot more of him in Winds.   I'm all over the place regarding Vic's fate.  I wonder if having Moqorro in tow will be of some benefit to our hapless younger brother?   

I'll skip the quote for quote deal for a bit, since our posts do tend to get quite lengthy.    As for Barristan, it really could play out the way you see, but I tend to reckon that more for Jamie than Barristan.     It's all good reason still I am hard pressed to really envision Barristan switching sides yet again.    He appears to be completely dedicated to Dany and did absolutely everything he possibly could for Rhaegar in joining him in battle.    It was Jamie who was left to protect Elia and the children.   It is Jamie who must protect Rhaegar's children if he is to find redemption.   

The two other Meereenese-ish POVs are Tyrion and Daenerys and nothing will convince me that either of these characters will die in Winds. No. Just no.  And to clear up Essos, I really, really, really don't see Arya being killed off in Winds either.  I think she will be back in the Riverlands before the end of the book, picking up Chekhov's wolfpack and perhaps running into the BwB again.  I have said before that I believe Arya needs to see what vengeance truly looks like - Lady Stoneheart.   I only meant to paste the No. Just no. because I loved it, but I needed to reiterate my COMPLETE SUPPORT for both of your statements here.   

I further agree with your predictions for the Stark kids, though you didn't mention Rickon...but he isn't a POV, still I'd like to hear your thoughts.    Let's jump down to Mel.   I'm on the fence with Mel.  I think a lot of her survival depends on whether or not she burns Shireen.   GRRM made comments about rewriting a character in the book last year.   I tend to think that character may be Stannis and I think his campaign could see a lot of development if he cut his ties with Rh'llor.  Following Season 6, I'm trying very hard to focus on what I think really will happen in the books as opposed to what I want to happen in the books.   Mel is my wildcard in this.   OK, Mel and Brienne.   Which brings me to your Brienne comments.   There was a recent topic in general where the possibility was brought up that Brienne and/or Jamie could actually be killed and resurrected in their current situation.  It's an interesting idea that I'm bandying about with.    I will say that I have changed my position on Brienne keeping Oathkeeper though.   I'm not sure she will make it out of the confrontation with LSH anymore. 

Lannisters:  I tend to take Cersei's ideas in the same tea I drink Mel's predictions with--a shot of brandy to make them go down more easily. Cersei is a nutbag and it's clear she will only spiral further into madness.  I think a lot of her problem is her willingness to fulfill Maggie's prophesies.  That she and Jamie should die together doesn't sit right with me at all as since we last discussed endgame ideas, Jamie has earned himself a much larger role in my eyes.   Cersei goes and Jamie lasts to nearly the bitter end.   I am really beginning to see Jamie tied to Jon's arc.   This is new to me, so it's still forming up, but a thrilling possibility.   

I said before I thought that Victarion was very doomed.  So, I think, is Jon Connington.  He has a role to play in starting off a greyscale epidemic before he dies, but die in Winds I think he shall.  But not before applying some Tywin-esque rule to Aegon's campaign.  Joining him on #TeamDoomed is Arianne Martell, a character I enjoy reading more every time I pick up ASOIAF.  After years of coveting the prize she thought she was going to be passed over for - Dorne - she will disregard it herself for a bigger prize - Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.  And when Aegon goes down, Arianne will go down with him.  She will die in Winds in fire and blood.  Gads Dame, you got bloody during your hiatus!   I'm sort of shocked at your Arienne prediction, though it makes a lot of sense. I loathe the idea of Jon Con killing children and being a generally dirty fighter but the writing is definitely on that wall.  Though it's clear that Jon Con is to bring a plague to Westeros, I miss the point of it.   Who would I want to die like that?   I hope it points to Shireen playing some larger role in the fight against the Others because of some imperviousness those afflicted with the disease gain against them.   It's really the only purpose a Greyscale epidemic could serve as far as I can tell.    If you have ideas about this I would love to read them.   

So, to sum up, POVs I think we will definitely lose in Winds: Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Cersei, Jon Connington, Arianne and Areo. POVs we could also lose/about which I am undecided: Brienne, Barristan, Jaime.

We haven't lost someone I consider to be a major POV character since Catelyn's death at the end of Storm.  So I think we are due to lose at least one.  And of the names above, I consider Theon, Cersei, Jaime and probably Brienne to fall into that category.  Of course, I could be as wrong as Ned is about LF.......I'm almost completely on board with your predictions.    Someone has to tell Euron's story so I'll hold Vic back, but only for Euron.   I am unsure if Tyrion can rise to power within Dany's regime if Barristan remains in charge so I will have to trade Vic for Barristan in the certain death column.   I also need to hold back on Areo, which you don't sound 100% certain of too.   I think we will get either Areo or Arienne, but not both because Dorne will be a major player in Winds.   As much as I love Theon, I have to agree that he is near the end of his arc.  I'm on the fence with you with Brienne.   

That was great, Dame.   Fill in the blanks at your leisure.

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I read no less than 4 slightly different versions of this chapter and listened to probably 4 more.  There is no telling since we don't have the real deal on notablog, but I was left with the impression Aeron was DED.  

I could have picked it up wrong, but I got the impression that he was pinned to the prow of the ship, but not yet dead.  I think I'll need to wait - as you say - for the chapter to be published in full. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I went immediately to Dany's visions at THOTU disjointed and unclear as they were.   (I'd LOVE some feed back from you on Aeron's visions, by the way!)  I figured that was all we would get and took those visions to be the point of the chapter.   Well, the visions and the knowledge that Euron is headed straight for Vic to cause more havoc.   As an aside, do you think it's possible Aeron's visions are so reminiscent of Dany's in THOTU because the warlocks are so close?

I do wonder if the reason that the visions are so like those Daenerys has in the HotU is that Euron/his plans feature in her's?  Of course, it could also be partly due to the Shade of the Evening that is consumed on both occasions.  Again, I really want to read the actual version of the chapter rather than a summary of it before coming to final-ish conclusions.  But one of Daenerys's visions is as below:

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . (Daenerys IV in Clash)

I wonder if this refers to Aeron? Of course, he could die en route. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I continue to hope for great things from Asha and I think you're right about her reunion with Theon.  The good does not wipe out the bad, just so, Dame.  Still Davos was only maimed, not killed and Theon did not kill Bran or Rickon.   There may be salvation in that.   Maybe.    I miss Stannis, can't wait for a whole lot more of him in Winds.   I'm all over the place regarding Vic's fate.  I wonder if having Moqorro in tow will be of some benefit to our hapless younger brother?   

True, Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon.  He did, however, kill two other young boys that he passed off as Bran and Rickon.  That makes him guilty of murder regardless.  And in Stannis's view, I think that justice would demand that he carry out judgement and pass sentence.  I don't trust Moqorro.  So, I am not sure how it will work out for Victarion with him around. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'll skip the quote for quote deal for a bit, since our posts do tend to get quite lengthy.    As for Barristan, it really could play out the way you see, but I tend to reckon that more for Jamie than Barristan.     It's all good reason still I am hard pressed to really envision Barristan switching sides yet again.    He appears to be completely dedicated to Dany and did absolutely everything he possibly could for Rhaegar in joining him in battle.    It was Jamie who was left to protect Elia and the children.   It is Jamie who must protect Rhaegar's children if he is to find redemption.   

I guess I think that Barristan's loyalty to the true Targaryen line - and if Aegon is Rhaegar's son then he is the true head of the Targaryen family.  I think that Barristan and Jaime defecting to Aegon would be the definition of the human heart in conflict.  Barristan is loyal to Daenerys, and it would be an extremely difficult decision for him to make.  Jaime would possibly need to pick Aegon over his own son.  Again, conflict.  If Jaime is going to protect Rhaegar's son, I think it will be Jon.  Jon - as we have previously discussed - is connected to Jaime through their fever dreams in Storm

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I only meant to paste the No. Just no. because I loved it, but I needed to reiterate my COMPLETE SUPPORT for both of your statements here.   

:)

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I further agree with your predictions for the Stark kids, though you didn't mention Rickon...but he isn't a POV, still I'd like to hear your thoughts.    Let's jump down to Mel.   I'm on the fence with Mel.  I think a lot of her survival depends on whether or not she burns Shireen.   GRRM made comments about rewriting a character in the book last year.   I tend to think that character may be Stannis and I think his campaign could see a lot of development if he cut his ties with Rh'llor.  Following Season 6, I'm trying very hard to focus on what I think really will happen in the books as opposed to what I want to happen in the books.   Mel is my wildcard in this.   OK, Mel and Brienne.   Which brings me to your Brienne comments.   There was a recent topic in general where the possibility was brought up that Brienne and/or Jamie could actually be killed and resurrected in their current situation.  It's an interesting idea that I'm bandying about with.    I will say that I have changed my position on Brienne keeping Oathkeeper though.   I'm not sure she will make it out of the confrontation with LSH anymore. 

I tend to think that after hearing the contents of the Pink Letter and surmising that Stannis is dead (remember in her POV chapter in Dance, Melisandre thinks that she asks R'llor for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and he shows her only Snow - so I wonder if she hasn't seen him in the flames for a while and as such believes the contents of the letter; whether or not they are true is irrelevant - what matters to subsequent events is Melisandre's interpretation) will decide to burn Shireen to wake a dragon from stone.  And that dragon she wakes is not a literal dragon, but one of dragon (Targaryen) blood - Jon.  Shireen dreams at one point of being killed by dragons, and I think that being sacrificed to wake a dragon would fit in with this.  But I have seen many theories on her burning, and they differ widely.  My thoughts are based mostly on the prophetic dragons dreams of Dunk and Egg and the idea that although they appear as actual dragons in dreams, in life they are about Targaryens. 

As for as season 6 goes, I am taking it all with a pinch of salt.  I think that so many characters and story lines have diverged that unless someone on the show specifically states that GRRM advised such and such would occur in the books, we cannot take it as a given that there will be something the same or even similar occurring in the books.  That aside, I agree it is really hard to pick apart what you want to happen and what you think will happen.  Brienne not keeping Oathkeeper is an interesting one - who do you see wielding the sword instead? I would love to see a Stark get their hands on it, given that it was reforged from Ice, but I don't think Westerosi karma works that way!  

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Lannisters:  I tend to take Cersei's ideas in the same tea I drink Mel's predictions with--a shot of brandy to make them go down more easily. Cersei is a nutbag and it's clear she will only spiral further into madness.  I think a lot of her problem is her willingness to fulfill Maggie's prophesies.  That she and Jamie should die together doesn't sit right with me at all as since we last discussed endgame ideas, Jamie has earned himself a much larger role in my eyes.   Cersei goes and Jamie lasts to nearly the bitter end.   I am really beginning to see Jamie tied to Jon's arc.   This is new to me, so it's still forming up, but a thrilling possibility.   

As I said above, if Jaime protects a child of Rhaegar, it will be Jon.  The child that nobody knew of and that escaped his father's wrath as much as Robert's.  Given that I don't think Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son, I think that him protecting Jon - the one child Rhaegar has left - would be his way of righting the wrong he believes he did.  Jaime doesn't regret killing Aerys.  He knows he had to make a choice between killing Aerys and allowing Aerys to burn KL to the ground.  He does regret not fulfilling his promise to Rhaegar.  And it will be Jon Connington, not Jaime, that dies protecting Rhaegar's non-son.  I wonder if Cersei knows the Jaime that we saw in Dance - I don't think so.  A Jaime that lasts longer than Cersei is one that I can get on board with.  Yeah, I'm thinking now that killing Cersei may not be the end of his story.  And only at the end of his story will Jaime die. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads Dame, you got bloody during your hiatus!   I'm sort of shocked at your Arienne prediction, though it makes a lot of sense. I loathe the idea of Jon Con killing children and being a generally dirty fighter but the writing is definitely on that wall.  Though it's clear that Jon Con is to bring a plague to Westeros, I miss the point of it.   Who would I want to die like that?   I hope it points to Shireen playing some larger role in the fight against the Others because of some imperviousness those afflicted with the disease gain against them.   It's really the only purpose a Greyscale epidemic could serve as far as I can tell.    If you have ideas about this I would love to read them.   

I don't know that I have got bloodier - I did always think that Winds would feature a whole lot of death. Jon Connington will, I think, go from one extreme to the other.  He knows his life is very time-limited and he is determined to seat his dear, departed Rhaegar's son on the throne before he dies.  Now, he has picked up Tywin's sentiment that the end justifies the means.  That will lead to the deaths of innocents.  As for Arianne, you need to think of the Rhaenyra parallels - female rulers with succession issues and a sense of entitlement, the fact that we look to be heading for a second Dance of the Dragons, Arianne invoking the memory of Criston Cole to Arys Oakheart, the attraction to dangerous men.........there are so many more than that.  Arianne will die, like her ancestress, in fire and blood.  

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

.I'm almost completely on board with your predictions.    Someone has to tell Euron's story so I'll hold Vic back, but only for Euron.   I am unsure if Tyrion can rise to power within Dany's regime if Barristan remains in charge so I will have to trade Vic for Barristan in the certain death column.   I also need to hold back on Areo, which you don't sound 100% certain of too.   I think we will get either Areo or Arienne, but not both because Dorne will be a major player in Winds.   As much as I love Theon, I have to agree that he is near the end of his arc.  I'm on the fence with you with Brienne.   

That was great, Dame.   Fill in the blanks at your leisure.

I think Barristan may be a good initial bridge between Tyrion and Daenerys (current thought - perhaps Tyrion is the one to tell Barristan and/or Daenerys about Aegon?) but if Tyrion is going to be Daenerys's chief advisor, he will need to get Barristan out of the way.  Areo, I think, would only survive if we needed someone to show us Doran moving forward.  Do we? We have Arianne in communication with him. 

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15 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I do wonder if the reason that the visions are so like those Daenerys has in the HotU is that Euron/his plans feature in her's?  Of course, it could also be partly due to the Shade of the Evening that is consumed on both occasions.  Again, I really want to read the actual version of the chapter rather than a summary of it before coming to final-ish conclusions.  But one of Daenerys's visions is as below:

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . (Daenerys IV in Clash)

I wonder if this refers to Aeron? Of course, he could die en route.   ** Remember when everyone thought the corpse was Vic?   

I don't trust Moqorro.  So, I am not sure how it will work out for Victarion with him around. **  The warlocks certainly had some real power that doesn't seem to cow Euron in any way.    Vic's chapters have their own very special weirdness to them. I wouldn't expet Moqorro to frighten Euron, but I wonder if Vic has a chance against his brother now that he's been infused with the fire of life? 

My understanding is that Shireen burns.  ** Me too, still I hoped GRRM had a change of heart after the uproar at the end of Season 5.  I tend to think that after hearing the contents of the Pink Letter and surmising that Stannis is dead (remember in her POV chapter in Dance, Melisandre thinks that she asks R'llor for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and he shows her only Snow - so I wonder if she hasn't seen him in the flames for a while and as such believes the contents of the letter; whether or not they are true is irrelevant - what matters to subsequent events is Melisandre's interpretation) will decide to burn Shireen to wake a dragon from stone.  And that dragon she wakes is not a literal dragon, but one of dragon (Targaryen) blood - Jon.  Shireen dreams at one point of being killed by dragons, and I think that being sacrificed to wake a dragon would fit in with this.  But I have seen many theories on her burning, and they differ widely.  My thoughts are based mostly on the prophetic dragons dreams of Dunk and Egg and the idea that although they appear as actual dragons in dreams, in life they are about Targaryens. ***Ah yes, Shrieen's dream.  I still hate it and hope there is another way around it, but I forgot about her dream and now that you bring it up I am reminded why I was on board with the terrible idea in the 1st place.

As for as season 6 goes, I am taking it all with a pinch of salt.  I think that so many characters and story lines have diverged that unless someone on the show specifically states that GRRM advised such and such would occur in the books, we cannot take it as a given that there will be something the same or even similar occurring in the books.  That aside, I agree it is really hard to pick apart what you want to happen and what you think will happen.  Brienne not keeping Oathkeeper is an interesting one - who do you see wielding the sword instead? I would love to see a Stark get their hands on it, given that it was reforged from Ice, but I don't think Westerosi karma works that way!  ***The show has done a right decent job of satisfying the masses while remaining reasonably true to their version of the story.   That said, S6 slapped me across the face with what I want versus what may really happen.    And that Forsaken chapter was most sobering for book readers.   I believe the only events the show confirmed came from GRRM is the burning of Shireen (dammit) and the origin of Hodor's name.    Believe it or not, the deeper I delve into the swords the more convinced I am that Jamie will wield Oathkeeper.    Yah, that was sort of stunning for me to suddenly grasp.    When I embraced Jamie it became a little easier in a way, to let go of some of my favorites. 

As I said above, if Jaime protects a child of Rhaegar, it will be Jon.  The child that nobody knew of and that escaped his father's wrath as much as Robert's.  Given that I don't think Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son, I think that him protecting Jon - the one child Rhaegar has left - would be his way of righting the wrong he believes he did.  Jaime doesn't regret killing Aerys.  He knows he had to make a choice between killing Aerys and allowing Aerys to burn KL to the ground.  He does regret not fulfilling his promise to Rhaegar.  And it will be Jon Connington, not Jaime, that dies protecting Rhaegar's non-son.  I wonder if Cersei knows the Jaime that we saw in Dance - I don't think so.  A Jaime that lasts longer than Cersei is one that I can get on board with.  Yeah, I'm thinking now that killing Cersei may not be the end of his story.  And only at the end of his story will Jaime die. ***Jamie really is a beautiful character with so much potential.  And Cersei really is a nut so you can't rely on anything she says.   I would go so far as to say that Cersei's death will actually liberate Jamie from many of his bindings.  

I don't know that I have got bloodier - I did always think that Winds would feature a whole lot of death. Jon Connington will, I think, go from one extreme to the other.  He knows his life is very time-limited and he is determined to seat his dear, departed Rhaegar's son on the throne before he dies.  Now, he has picked up Tywin's sentiment that the end justifies the means.  That will lead to the deaths of innocents.  As for Arianne, you need to think of the Rhaenyra parallels - female rulers with succession issues and a sense of entitlement, the fact that we look to be heading for a second Dance of the Dragons, Arianne invoking the memory of Criston Cole to Arys Oakheart, the attraction to dangerous men.........there are so many more than that.  Arianne will die, like her ancestress, in fire and blood.  ***You have indeed always been the one to remind us that Winds is going to get really nasty.  You were conducting a reread last we spoke.   But you've become bolder, too Dame.   I like it.   

I think Barristan may be a good initial bridge between Tyrion and Daenerys (current thought - perhaps Tyrion is the one to tell Barristan and/or Daenerys about Aegon?) but if Tyrion is going to be Daenerys's chief advisor, he will need to get Barristan out of the way.  Areo, I think, would only survive if we needed someone to show us Doran moving forward.  Do we? We have Arianne in communication with him. ***I don't know.    I just recently reread the Barristan chapter from Winds.   He's so caught up in making things right for Dany and even seems to expect to die.   Tyrion is such a clever thing and may even be able to gain Barristan's trust during the battle.    I will admit that I am more or less still stinging from the pitiful death Areo Hotah suffered in April and pull for his continued tale in response to that.   I like Areo Hotah.    He's the consummate badass.   As you so beautifully pointed out to me we only need Areo or Arienne until Dorne's part in the story is told.    I admit I am anticipating both POVs and will no doubt start my rereads with Dorne once Winds finally gets published.    Still, I don't think we will have them both and that's going to be amazing.  

 

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I am a bit short of time - so I'll make it short.  I haven't had time to read recent posts yet.

Meereen - This will be down to Tyrion and Daenerys.  The other POV's will die or be absorbed into the others.  Vic is toast.  Barristan could go either way.  I predict that Meereen is lost and Daenerys's supporters are forced to flee aboard the Greyjoy fleet.  

Jaime and Brienne - If I had to slog through 8 chapters of what can only be described as character build-up for Brienne to die immediately, I will be very irritated.  I think if anyone dies it will be Jaime.  Unless he is the valonqar (I have my doubts) then his story could be done.  I think Brienne will go on to protect one or both of the Stark girls.

Stark kids - Bran will leave the cave before the end of TWOW.  Sansa will shed being Alayne and take care of Littlefinger, and move North.  I see nothing for her story in the South.  Arya I have no idea what will happen.  I hope she ditches the FM and moves back to Westeros.  I would like to see her go to the Riverlands to reunite with Nymeria.

Cersei will rise and fall quickly.  Arianne may take over the political stuff in KL.

Jon will be back relatively quickly.  Mel may be POV for a short while.

The prologue will be at Casterly Rock.  Jeyne's appearance will be arrival under guard.  There isn't really enough time to put together a rescue attempt, so I doubt we will see one

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18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I am a bit short of time - so I'll make it short.  I haven't had time to read recent posts yet.

Meereen - This will be down to Tyrion and Daenerys.  The other POV's will die or be absorbed into the others.  Vic is toast.  Barristan could go either way.  I predict that Meereen is lost and Daenerys's supporters are forced to flee aboard the Greyjoy fleet.  

Jaime and Brienne - If I had to slog through 8 chapters of what can only be described as character build-up for Brienne to die immediately, I will be very irritated.  I think if anyone dies it will be Jaime.  Unless he is the valonqar (I have my doubts) then his story could be done.  I think Brienne will go on to protect one or both of the Stark girls.

Stark kids - Bran will leave the cave before the end of TWOW.  Sansa will shed being Alayne and take care of Littlefinger, and move North.  I see nothing for her story in the South.  Arya I have no idea what will happen.  I hope she ditches the FM and moves back to Westeros.  I would like to see her go to the Riverlands to reunite with Nymeria.

Cersei will rise and fall quickly.  Arianne may take over the political stuff in KL.

Jon will be back relatively quickly.  Mel may be POV for a short while.

The prologue will be at Casterly Rock.  Jeyne's appearance will be arrival under guard.  There isn't really enough time to put together a rescue attempt, so I doubt we will see one

Ah Nevets, it's good to see you back, too.    Recent posts are basically the previous 3 or 4.   We haven't had much to say in the past months.   Doesn't look like you've had much change of heart since we started, so when you have time, come weigh in on the Greyjoys and tell us some more about this Jeyne rescue that will not be.    

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10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The warlocks certainly had some real power that doesn't seem to cow Euron in any way.    Vic's chapters have their own very special weirdness to them. I wouldn't expet Moqorro to frighten Euron, but I wonder if Vic has a chance against his brother now that he's been infused with the fire of life? 

I think that Victarion will think himself safe with Moqorro, and trusting the wrong person has a tendency to be the cause of a character's downfall in ASOIAF - the Lannisters placed too much trust in LF, and he killed Joffrey; Theon placed too much trust in Reek and became Ramsay's plaything; Ned trusted LF to help him, and he turned Ned over to the Lannisters.  And those are only three of the many, many examples I can think of.  In using Moqorro, Victarion is trying to use magic against Euron and play him at his own game.  He may be armored in fire - or rather his arm may well be - but I don't think that will ultimately save him.  After all, Beric was infused with the fire of life more than once and still proceeded to die again. 

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Believe it or not, the deeper I delve into the swords the more convinced I am that Jamie will wield Oathkeeper.    Yah, that was sort of stunning for me to suddenly grasp.    When I embraced Jamie it became a little easier in a way, to let go of some of my favorites. 

See, now that could fit in with the idea of Jaime protecting Jon - Oathkeeper referring to him keeping his promise (though very late in the day) to protect Rhaegar's blood.  I agree with Nevets that it would be intensely frustrating to get eight chapters of build up with Brienne only for her to die, but we had four Quentyn chapters before his death.  Perhaps Brienne's arc is about her attempts to be a 'pure' knight and to uphold a knight's vow at all costs only for the state of the world to mean it leads to her death?  I am not sure.  I want Brienne to live, but then I wanted Ned Stark to live too. Either way, while I have seen reasonable cases for someone else being the valonqar, I still think that Jaime is the one person that makes thematic and literary sense.  The tragedy of Cersei's downfall will be that she ultimately caused it herself, and the last person in the world she thought would betray her does.  Because of her own actions.  So I see Jaime living at least as long as Cersei, probably longer.  

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Jamie really is a beautiful character with so much potential.  And Cersei really is a nut so you can't rely on anything she says.   I would go so far as to say that Cersei's death will actually liberate Jamie from many of his bindings.  

Agree - with Cersei gone, Jaime loses the anchor to the life he has led since joining the KG.  And I think Aegon taking KL will relieve him of that duty.  Jaime thinks more than once that becoming a KG soiled him as much as he soiled the KG, and without that and Cersei he will have to confront who he really is and what he is really capable of.  He cannot hide behind the Kingslayer mask forever.  

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I just recently reread the Barristan chapter from Winds.   He's so caught up in making things right for Dany and even seems to expect to die.   Tyrion is such a clever thing and may even be able to gain Barristan's trust during the battle. 

Barristan is honorable, and if Tyrion does really appear to have split from his family.........I can see Barristan wanting to trust him and perhaps having to do so as Tyrion has experience in running a city while Barristan himself does not.  I think Barristan needs to survive the battle of fire to act as a bridge, but after that - as I have said before - I think he will have to choose between Aegon and Daenerys.  And I am now thinking more and more that Tyrion will bring that choice about.  Tyrion in Dance is a very manipulative character and I think he would see an opening for a trusted advisor should Barristan defect. 

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I like Areo Hotah.    He's the consummate badass.   As you so beautifully pointed out to me we only need Areo or Arienne until Dorne's part in the story is told.    I admit I am anticipating both POVs and will no doubt start my rereads with Dorne once Winds finally gets published.    Still, I don't think we will have them both and that's going to be amazing.  

I like Areo too, but I don't see him surviving Winds.  I think that we can see Doran through a distant Arianne - until Daenerys arrives and makes him rue the day he backed Aegon; Arianne's story will be done when she and Aegon die horribly in fire and blood after a short rule in KL.  And if Obara is willing to break the pledge that she made to Doran, then I can very well see her siding with Darkstar when she, Hotah and Balon Swann catch up with him.  I'm actually quite looking forward to seeing Darkstar again.  The Martells talk about marrying the dragons, but you cannot tame a dragon.  If you try, then you will die in fire and blood - as Quentyn did. 

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

The prologue will be at Casterly Rock.  Jeyne's appearance will be arrival under guard.  There isn't really enough time to put together a rescue attempt, so I doubt we will see one

I do think there will be a rescue attempt.  While I think that Winds will generally be a bloody book as the Game of Thrones meets its climax before we move on to the War for the Dawn, I think that Winds will ultimately be about the deaths of innocents.  Tommen and Myrcella.  Maybe Podrick (trying to loyally defend Brienne as he once loyally tried to defend Tyrion) and Shireen also.  And perhaps Robert Arryn to grant Sansa and Harry the Vale.  Jeyne will be another of those innocents.  Lady Stoneheart will believe her complicit in her mother's scheming and order her death.  And I wouldn't be surprised if poor Roslin - carrying Edmure's heir - is killed accidentally in the crossfire.  

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On 7/17/2016 at 5:17 PM, Curled Finger said:

Ah Nevets, it's good to see you back, too.    Recent posts are basically the previous 3 or 4.   We haven't had much to say in the past months.   Doesn't look like you've had much change of heart since we started, so when you have time, come weigh in on the Greyjoys and tell us some more about this Jeyne rescue that will not be.    

Greyjoys - I don't have much to say regarding Euron, Aeron, et al.  While I did see a summary of The Foresaken, I have't paid it as much attention as maybe I should.  I really can't muster up much interest.  It does look like I can put down Aeron as having only 1 chapter in the next book, though.

I think Theon is a goner, but I could easily be wrong.  He is in bad shape, and is a prisoner of Stannis, who would love to execute him, as would most of his supporters.  Also, I think that, at this time, death would be a bit of a relief for Theon.  I think Asha will take over his story.  I can see her possibly becoming the next ruler of the Iron Islands, but I really am not sure.  

Rescue attempt - Jeyne and Edmure are surrounded by 400 troops who are experienced and disciplined.  That is a very large force.  They will be entering the Westerlands very quickly (probably within a week, certainly within two).  Getting enough men and swords together to take on that large a force, and planning a rescue, would probably take more time than they are likely to have available.  Also, the Riverrun men were disarmed, and finding several hundred swords on short notice won't be easy.  I think that thoughts of a rescue are a pipe dream.  Also, the fact that a rescue attempt is widely predicted among readers suggests that it won't happen, as GRRM likes to do the unexpected.  

Bonus - Predicted POV chapter numbers

Daenerys - 8

Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Sansa - 7

Bran - 6

Cersei - 5

Davos, Sam, Arianne, Asha - 4

Jaime, Brienne - 3

Theon, Mel - 2

Everyone else - 2 or less

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56 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Greyjoys - I don't have much to say regarding Euron, Aeron, et al.  While I did see a summary of The Foresaken, I have't paid it as much attention as maybe I should.  I really can't muster up much interest.  It does look like I can put down Aeron as having only 1 chapter in the next book, though.

I think Theon is a goner, but I could easily be wrong.  He is in bad shape, and is a prisoner of Stannis, who would love to execute him, as would most of his supporters.  Also, I think that, at this time, death would be a bit of a relief for Theon.  I think Asha will take over his story.  I can see her possibly becoming the next ruler of the Iron Islands, but I really am not sure.  

Rescue attempt - Jeyne and Edmure are surrounded by 400 troops who are experienced and disciplined.  That is a very large force.  They will be entering the Westerlands very quickly (probably within a week, certainly within two).  Getting enough men and swords together to take on that large a force, and planning a rescue, would probably take more time than they are likely to have available.  Also, the Riverrun men were disarmed, and finding several hundred swords on short notice won't be easy.  I think that thoughts of a rescue are a pipe dream.  Also, the fact that a rescue attempt is widely predicted among readers suggests that it won't happen, as GRRM likes to do the unexpected.  

Bonus - Predicted POV chapter numbers

Daenerys - 8

Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Sansa - 7

Bran - 6

Cersei - 5

Davos, Sam, Arianne, Asha - 4

Jaime, Brienne - 3

Theon, Mel - 2

Everyone else - 2 or less

Is this lack of interest in the Greyjoys something you've always had or is the recent turn of events just too much?  I don't think Theon's done just yet, soon but not right at the beginning.   Asha really gripped me on the last reread as she seems almost suicidal in not wanting to burn.    Methinks something's going on with her.   Shes got a plan or something.    This burning is a big deal to her.   I don't blame her.  

Ah the rescue.  It would be just like GRRM to kill the last hope wouldn't it?  I wondered what would happen with Jeyne if she lived--would they make Jon marry her?   Still we do have both Jeyne's and Robb's crowns now and that surely means something?   Lots of ideas about how this rescue attempt will go down.   It's sort of refreshing to see someone make absolutely nothing of it.   In a very depressing sort of way!   

Distribution of POV chapters is definitely a bonus mention.   I'm not brave enough to offer one up though I find your allotments interesting. I counted chapters once but that was to name the chapters for those of us who rely on e-books and haven't yet actually purchased hard copies.   Some day.   

Thanks for popping in Nevets, it's always good to see what you're thinking.    

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In for a mad dash..

Has Jeyne already been rescued ? It seems to me there could be a missing Westerling daughter. Without getting into too much detail, right now... Here's the wiki on Eleyna Westerling : Eleyna becomes part of King Robb Stark's retinue when he marries her elder sister, Jeyne. She stays at Riverrun with her mother, Sybell Spicer, younger brother, Rollam, and Jeyne when Robb goes to the Twins for the marriage of Lord Edmure Tully.

When discussing the marriages promised by Tywin with lady Sybell... Jaime had to wonder how much Lord Gawen knew about his wife’s scheming. How much do we men ever know? 

He may have found out after joining Robb's retinue , and exerted some authority..

Jaime doesn't meet the younger daughter, or take note of her when the Westerlings leave...

Lord Gawen nodded gravely as he passed, but Lady Sybell looked through him with eyes like chips of ice. Jeyne never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn.

It may be just my suspicious mind, but the underlined sentence is a bit suspect for me, knowing how finely GRRM parses his sentences at times."At all" may be extremely important, and really, the whole sentence is redundant ... unless George means to slyly imply that the girl Jaime met wasn't Jeyne at all, or that this is not the girl he met. Her "downcast eyes". alone, tells us she doesn't look at Jaime as they depart.

If he wanted an extra sentence for emphasis, he could have written "Jeyne never looked at him."

So often, hooded cloaks are hiding identities.

She was only with Jaime for a brief time. The hood and downcast eyes don't assist recognition, but the torn clothes shout her identity... maybe a bit too loudly.

 

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1 hour ago, bemused said:

n for a mad dash..

Has Jeyne already been rescued ? It seems to me there could be a missing Westerling daughter. Without getting into too much detail, right now... Here's the wiki on Eleyna Westerling : Eleyna becomes part of King Robb Stark's retinue when he marries her elder sister, Jeyne. She stays at Riverrun with her mother, Sybell Spicer, younger brother, Rollam, and Jeyne when Robb goes to the Twins for the marriage of Lord Edmure Tully.

When discussing the marriages promised by Tywin with lady Sybell... Jaime had to wonder how much Lord Gawen knew about his wife’s scheming. How much do we men ever know? 

He may have found out after joining Robb's retinue , and exerted some authority..

Jaime doesn't meet the younger daughter, or take note of her when the Westerlings leave...

daven Lannister mentions to Jaime that there are 3 Westerling children inside Riverrun.  This would be Jeyne, Eleyna, and Rollam.   If there had only been two kids present I'm pretty sure someone would have said something.  Jaime met with Jeyne because as Robb's widow, she was important. The other two kids didn't really matter.  We don't see her younger brother either, yet no one doubts he was actually at Riverrun.  Oh, and Gawen never joins Robb.  He was initially a prisoner at Seagard, and shows up accompanying the Lannisters at Riverrun.

On 7/18/2016 at 7:19 PM, Curled Finger said:

Is this lack of interest in the Greyjoys something you've always had or is the recent turn of events just too much?  I don't think Theon's done just yet, soon but not right at the beginning.   Asha really gripped me on the last reread as she seems almost suicidal in not wanting to burn.    Methinks something's going on with her.   Shes got a plan or something.    This burning is a big deal to her.   I don't blame her.  

Ah the rescue.  It would be just like GRRM to kill the last hope wouldn't it?  I wondered what would happen with Jeyne if she lived--would they make Jon marry her?   Still we do have both Jeyne's and Robb's crowns now and that surely means something?   Lots of ideas about how this rescue attempt will go down.   It's sort of refreshing to see someone make absolutely nothing of it.   In a very depressing sort of way!   

Distribution of POV chapters is definitely a bonus mention.   I'm not brave enough to offer one up though I find your allotments interesting. I counted chapters once but that was to name the chapters for those of us who rely on e-books and haven't yet actually purchased hard copies.   Some day.   

Thanks for popping in Nevets, it's always good to see what you're thinking.    

I find Asha and Theon interesting but have never cared much for Euron and Victarion.  To much unpleasantness in a story that I don't otherwise have any real interest in.  At least with Ramsay, for instance, I'm interested in the underlying story and the characters he interacts with.

I don't think Jeyne is going away.  There is still the possibility for her to cause trouble.  As Robb's widow, she is a potent symbol.  If there is a rescue or escape, it will probably occur at her home at the Crag, where she will likely be less well defended.  I also like the idea that a Lannister falls in love with her, and she fucks up their wedding plans as well,, but that's probably too much to hope for.

With the POV structure, I have put a bit more emphasis on the "Big 6" main characters than I think many people do.  If the story is going to end anytime soon, the story is going to need to coalesce around the main characters: Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran.  Essentially, all the stories will have to be resolved or be connected with one of the "Big 6".

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5 hours ago, bemused said:

In for a mad dash..

Has Jeyne already been rescued ? It seems to me there could be a missing Westerling daughter. Without getting into too much detail, right now... Here's the wiki on Eleyna Westerling : Eleyna becomes part of King Robb Stark's retinue when he marries her elder sister, Jeyne. She stays at Riverrun with her mother, Sybell Spicer, younger brother, Rollam, and Jeyne when Robb goes to the Twins for the marriage of Lord Edmure Tully.

When discussing the marriages promised by Tywin with lady Sybell... Jaime had to wonder how much Lord Gawen knew about his wife’s scheming. How much do we men ever know? 

He may have found out after joining Robb's retinue , and exerted some authority..

Jaime doesn't meet the younger daughter, or take note of her when the Westerlings leave...

Lord Gawen nodded gravely as he passed, but Lady Sybell looked through him with eyes like chips of ice. Jeyne never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn.

It may be just my suspicious mind, but the underlined sentence is a bit suspect for me, knowing how finely GRRM parses his sentences at times."At all" may be extremely important, and really, the whole sentence is redundant ... unless George means to slyly imply that the girl Jaime met wasn't Jeyne at all, or that this is not the girl he met. Her "downcast eyes". alone, tells us she doesn't look at Jaime as they depart.

If he wanted an extra sentence for emphasis, he could have written "Jeyne never looked at him."

So often, hooded cloaks are hiding identities.

She was only with Jaime for a brief time. The hood and downcast eyes don't assist recognition, but the torn clothes shout her identity... maybe a bit too loudly.

 

It's so good to see you, too, bemused!!!   Gads, you're right.   I remember reading about this idea years ago and it is downright suspicious. now if I could only get you to figure out what we need BOTH crowns for...    

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

daven Lannister mentions to Jaime that there are 3 Westerling children inside Riverrun.  This would be Jeyne, Eleyna, and Rollam.   If there had only been two kids present I'm pretty sure someone would have said something.  Jaime met with Jeyne because as Robb's widow, she was important. The other two kids didn't really matter.  We don't see her younger brother either, yet no one doubts he was actually at Riverrun.  Oh, and Gawen never joins Robb.  He was initially a prisoner at Seagard, and shows up accompanying the Lannisters at Riverrun.

I find Asha and Theon interesting but have never cared much for Euron and Victarion.  To much unpleasantness in a story that I don't otherwise have any real interest in.  At least with Ramsay, for instance, I'm interested in the underlying story and the characters he interacts with.

I don't think Jeyne is going away.  There is still the possibility for her to cause trouble.  As Robb's widow, she is a potent symbol.  If there is a rescue or escape, it will probably occur at her home at the Crag, where she will likely be less well defended.  I also like the idea that a Lannister falls in love with her, and she fucks up their wedding plans as well,, but that's probably too much to hope for.

With the POV structure, I have put a bit more emphasis on the "Big 6" main characters than I think many people do.  If the story is going to end anytime soon, the story is going to need to coalesce around the main characters: Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran.  Essentially, all the stories will have to be resolved or be connected with one of the "Big 6".

First things first.  Damn straight on the characters connecting.  

As I said to bemused, that topic I read about Jeyne actually being Eleyna had to do with Jeyne's oft argued pregnancy.  The descriptions of Jeyne as seen through Cat and Jamie's eyes.   Still, Jeyne is Blackfish's primary job, isn't she?    He needs to protect her.   He sure took that Northern King seriously.    That whole Jamie chapter is amazing, fraught with misdirection and pregnant with possibility.   Sorry, couldn't resist.  Nonetheless, if Blackfish has pulled a switcheroo with the girls and made off with Jeyne I wonder who will try to help Edmure??   So much there.    And where the heck are Reynald Westerling and Olyver Frey?    Jeyne as a trouble maker?   This is new.   Thanks Nevets, gives me something entirely new to consider.   

Sorry I'm so out of order here Nevets.   I'm actually breaking my own rule about waiting for the REAL Forsaken chapter before tearing it to pieces looking for clues.   But I couldn't help it.   So many parallels to Dany's visions in the House of the Undying and Valyrian Steel armor--it got me.   Sure puts an even spookier shadow on Victarion's chapters for me.   And of course I'm all carried away speculating what Euron's up to, what Aeron's visions mean and why Moqorro is with Vic exactly.   This leak was much like the Alyane release for me, just full of good stuff.    ASOAIF speaks to each of us at different levels at various times.    This is my time to just dig the Greyjoys.   I hope they impress you more than they have in the books to come.   I'l be watching your posts after TWOW is released!!!

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23 hours ago, Nevets said:

daven Lannister mentions to Jaime that there are 3 Westerling children inside Riverrun.  This would be Jeyne, Eleyna, and Rollam.   If there had only been two kids present I'm pretty sure someone would have said something.  Jaime met with Jeyne because as Robb's widow, she was important. The other two kids didn't really matter.  We don't see her younger brother either, yet no one doubts he was actually at Riverrun.  Oh, and Gawen never joins Robb.  He was initially a prisoner at Seagard, and shows up accompanying the Lannisters at Riverrun.

Yes, my bad... I was doing a quick wiki check but took a phone call in the middle and read a Raynald line for Gawen. (Next time, I won't answer the phone ..;).. stick to the important stuff, right?)

However, this is a relatively small detail..   There may still be grave doubts that Gawen and Sybell see eye to eye.

Now that I have a wee bit more time, I'd like to make a few more points.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's so good to see you, too, bemused!!!   Gads, you're right.   I remember reading about this idea years ago and it is downright suspicious. now if I could only get you to figure out what we need BOTH crowns for...    

Lets go back a bit.. We all know that the BF was very likely being disingenuous when speaking to Jaime on the topic of Jon. Now we come to the chapter in question AFfC, Jaime VII.

Jaime is questioning Edmure on the BF's escape. Can we be sure Edmure is telling the truth ? I know Edmure's not a very good strategic thinker, but BF is, and he's had time to exercise his brain. All Edmure has to do is stick to the story. When Robb left Jeyne (his Queen), he didn't leave her in her mother's care, but in the care of BF.

Aside:  I don't know if I've said so here.. (I have in other places).. but I think Robb's "will" went to Jeyne and Blackfish. The captain of the Myraham could have easily dropped off a Mallister courier at a point on the coast adjacent to Riverrun. It's the most sensible course of action. If Jeyne had become pregnant, his child would be his heir, but it only stands to reason that if Jon would be his second choice as heir, Jon would also be his first choice for his child's protector and regent. Jeyne couldn't be expected to rule the North, Robb has had good reason to doubt Cat's judgement under some circumstances, and he knows she won't support his wishes re:Jon. She made that abundantly clear ("Never.").That means he has no choice but to sideline her, which he does. He would not have trusted Cat with the document. And he would not have taken it with him into battle. And I don't believe he would have left it in Walder Frey's dubious care (considering their history). It needed to be with his Queen and a trusted commander.

But back to Jaime... He's just asked Edmure where BF would go, when ...

“Lord Commander?” A guardsman stood in the open door. “Lady Westerling and her daughter are without, as you commanded.”
Jaime shoved the map aside. “Show them in.” At least the girl did not vanish too. 

The whole Jeyne episode is book-ended by "At least the girl did not vanish too." and the possibly contradictory "Jeyne never saw him at all."  I think George does this kind of thing quite often to show that the POV character's assumptions might not be 100% correct. 

Consider the Tully words, Family. Duty. Honour. Robb was his nephew and his King, so now Jeyne is his niece and his Queen. Robb has left her under the BF's protection.Not only does he have a familial duty to her, but an additional duty to his King's command/trust. It would be a terrible smear on his honour if he just escaped himself, and left her in enemy hands.

Earlier he raised the spectre of Jaime's kingslaying.. I don't think that was merely a taunt, because hand in hand with that bit of history, goes the treatment of Elia and her children, and that too was a Lannister act.

Everyone is aware of this. When Jaime asks if Jeyne is pregnant, she tries to flee.

Some people think the BF is still in the castle. If so, it's possible they're both there (will and crown in hand). As Bran & co. hid in the crypts until the fighting was over.. they could be secreted away somewhere, until Jaime leaves and the ridiculous Emmon has command. In their case, some Tully retainers would still be there to assist... (Just one possibility.) 

In another possible parallel, the rescue of the other Jeyne (Poole) featured disguising her as a servant. In this case, a servant could take her place, or her sister's place... So Jaime may have met Jeyne, may have met her sister,.. but who he sees riding away as either Jeyne, Eleyna, or both, could be someone else entirely.

Back when Daven first mentioned the Westerling children to Jaime ... Jaime had met Jeyne Westerling, he thought, though he could not recall what she looked like. ..(he had similar musings when he met Jeyne Poole "Arya" on his return to KL). George has planted plenty of seeds of doubt.

The question is would the Westerlings play along ? I think yes, if Elia's fate is at all in their minds. In spite of Jaime's assurances, could they trust that the Lannisters would wait to see if Jeyne was pregnant ? Or might they worry that the Lannisters would just do her in to be on the safe side ?

Here's what we're told..

The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished.

After it became plain that Kevan didn't think Jeyne was good enough for his younger sons, would even an impoverished proud man of an old family want to enter into the kind of haggling that his wife engaged in?.. or might he not want to be rebuffed again and/or suffer further wounds to his pride ?

Even Sybell, who sees nothing wrong with bargaining, is affronted at the promise of the bastard Joy for Raynald. So I think Gawen's "grave nod" to Jaime is ambiguous and Sybell's icy stare might be for more than Jaime's personal insult to her.

A rescue on the road would be difficult, and Jeyne and her siblings would be at risk. The Westerlings may think it's best for Jeyne's safety to say she was "abducted" after their return to the Crag.

I don't think any of this is outside the realm of reasonable possibility.

ETA: I don't know if we need BOTH crowns, but Jeyne might need hers as part of her proof (and trappings) if BF intends to take her north to safety at some point. Suppose all those who came into close contact with her are dead by that time?

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51 minutes ago, bemused said:

In another possible parallel, the rescue of the other Jeyne (Poole) featured disguising her as a servant. In this case, a servant could take her place, or her sister's place... So Jaime may have met Jeyne, may have met her sister,.. but who he sees riding away as either Jeyne, Eleyna, or both, could be someone else entirely.

Back when Daven first mentioned the Westerling children to Jaime ... Jaime had met Jeyne Westerling, he thought, though he could not recall what she looked like. ..(he had similar musings when he met Jeyne Poole "Arya" on his return to KL). George has planted plenty of seeds of doubt.

Jaime may not know what Jeyne looked like, but there are plenty of people who would.  The main reason the Lannisters were able to get away with FArya was because nobody had paid attention to her she was too young, and the second daughter), and those who knew her were dead.  Jeyne was a well-known public figure, and lots of people met her, including, I suspect, quite a few within Jaime's army.  I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few Freys who would know her well enough to spot an impostor.  And if any of the river lords have truly changed sides, they could also spot it.  While anything is possible, I think this is fans' wishful thinking.   I don't want to clog up this particular thread arguing about it, though.

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25 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 Jeyne was a well-known public figure

I think this is a bit of an overstatement, but I'm not here to argue with anyone about it. I simply used the points you made as my point of departure, since I had no time to develop my earlier post fully. I don't really care all that much. I certainly have no "wishes".

I'm just pointing out (to anyone) that GRRM has actually given the reader reasons to be unsure.. these ambiguities, etc., will not all be accidental on his part.

Jeyne's a minor character that we only have reports of through Cat and this scene (or two, with Jaime) and there are a number of reasonable interpretations.

Her main function going forward may only be as part of bringing other more important characters together and safeguarding Robb's document.

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4 hours ago, bemused said:

Yes, my bad... I was doing a quick wiki check but took a phone call in the middle and read a Raynald line for Gawen. (Next time, I won't answer the phone ..;).. stick to the important stuff, right?)

However, this is a relatively small detail..   There may still be grave doubts that Gawen and Sybell see eye to eye.

Now that I have a wee bit more time, I'd like to make a few more points.

Lets go back a bit.. We all know that the BF was very likely being disingenuous when speaking to Jaime on the topic of Jon. Now we come to the chapter in question AFfC, Jaime VII.

Jaime is questioning Edmure on the BF's escape. Can we be sure Edmure is telling the truth ? I know Edmure's not a very good strategic thinker, but BF is, and he's had time to exercise his brain. All Edmure has to do is stick to the story. When Robb left Jeyne (his Queen), he didn't leave her in her mother's care, but in the care of BF.

Aside:  I don't know if I've said so here.. (I have in other places).. but I think Robb's "will" went to Jeyne and Blackfish. The captain of the Myraham could have easily dropped off a Mallister courier at a point on the coast adjacent to Riverrun. It's the most sensible course of action. If Jeyne had become pregnant, his child would be his heir, but it only stands to reason that if Jon would be his second choice as heir, Jon would also be his first choice for his child's protector and regent. Jeyne couldn't be expected to rule the North, Robb has had good reason to doubt Cat's judgement under some circumstances, and he knows she won't support his wishes re:Jon. She made that abundantly clear ("Never.").That means he has no choice but to sideline her, which he does. He would not have trusted Cat with the document. And he would not have taken it with him into battle. And I don't believe he would have left it in Walder Frey's dubious care (considering their history). It needed to be with his Queen and a trusted commander.

But back to Jaime... He's just asked Edmure where BF would go, when ...

“Lord Commander?” A guardsman stood in the open door. “Lady Westerling and her daughter are without, as you commanded.”
Jaime shoved the map aside. “Show them in.” At least the girl did not vanish too. 

The whole Jeyne episode is book-ended by "At least the girl did not vanish too." and the possibly contradictory "Jeyne never saw him at all."  I think George does this kind of thing quite often to show that the POV character's assumptions might not be 100% correct. 

Consider the Tully words, Family. Duty. Honour. Robb was his nephew and his King, so now Jeyne is his niece and his Queen. Robb has left her under the BF's protection.Not only does he have a familial duty to her, but an additional duty to his King's command/trust. It would be a terrible smear on his honour if he just escaped himself, and left her in enemy hands.

Earlier he raised the spectre of Jaime's kingslaying.. I don't think that was merely a taunt, because hand in hand with that bit of history, goes the treatment of Elia and her children, and that too was a Lannister act.

Everyone is aware of this. When Jaime asks if Jeyne is pregnant, she tries to flee.

Some people think the BF is still in the castle. If so, it's possible they're both there (will and crown in hand). As Bran & co. hid in the crypts until the fighting was over.. they could be secreted away somewhere, until Jaime leaves and the ridiculous Emmon has command. In their case, some Tully retainers would still be there to assist... (Just one possibility.) 

In another possible parallel, the rescue of the other Jeyne (Poole) featured disguising her as a servant. In this case, a servant could take her place, or her sister's place... So Jaime may have met Jeyne, may have met her sister,.. but who he sees riding away as either Jeyne, Eleyna, or both, could be someone else entirely.

Back when Daven first mentioned the Westerling children to Jaime ... Jaime had met Jeyne Westerling, he thought, though he could not recall what she looked like. ..(he had similar musings when he met Jeyne Poole "Arya" on his return to KL). George has planted plenty of seeds of doubt.

The question is would the Westerlings play along ? I think yes, if Elia's fate is at all in their minds. In spite of Jaime's assurances, could they trust that the Lannisters would wait to see if Jeyne was pregnant ? Or might they worry that the Lannisters would just do her in to be on the safe side ?

Here's what we're told..

The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished.

After it became plain that Kevan didn't think Jeyne was good enough for his younger sons, would even an impoverished proud man of an old family want to enter into the kind of haggling that his wife engaged in?.. or might he not want to be rebuffed again and/or suffer further wounds to his pride ?

Even Sybell, who sees nothing wrong with bargaining, is affronted at the promise of the bastard Joy for Raynald. So I think Gawen's "grave nod" to Jaime is ambiguous and Sybell's icy stare might be for more than Jaime's personal insult to her.

A rescue on the road would be difficult, and Jeyne and her siblings would be at risk. The Westerlings may think it's best for Jeyne's safety to say she was "abducted" after their return to the Crag.

I don't think any of this is outside the realm of reasonable possibility.

ETA: I don't know if we need BOTH crowns, but Jeyne might need hers as part of her proof (and trappings) if BF intends to take her north to safety at some point. Suppose all those who came into close contact with her are dead by that time?

bemused, this is fun.   And plausible.   I guess we will just have to wait and see exactly what becomes of Jeyne and the Blackfish.    I only bring BOTH crowns into the story as they both seem to miraculously surface fairly closely in the books.   If Blackfish is this well outfitted, to pull off an escape and virtual kidnapping, what says he isn't connected to the BWB in some way?   I can't imagine he would know LSH is a version of Cat, but I still think it would be really interesting to see Jeyne, BF & LSH all together again.   Or would he make his way to the safety of the Vale?   Straight North?   There is so much going on in the Riverlands.   I believe LSH and her band headed up to the Neck.  If Brienne is marching Jamie to her (and i like to imagine someone in Jamie's guard followed them) and BF is headed North as well, there could be some massive converging of characters in that place...so close to Howland Reed and maybe our missing emissaries..and still only 2 POVs in the bunch.         

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jaime may not know what Jeyne looked like, but there are plenty of people who would.  The main reason the Lannisters were able to get away with FArya was because nobody had paid attention to her she was too young, and the second daughter), and those who knew her were dead.  Jeyne was a well-known public figure, and lots of people met her, including, I suspect, quite a few within Jaime's army.  I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few Freys who would know her well enough to spot an impostor.  And if any of the river lords have truly changed sides, they could also spot it.  While anything is possible, I think this is fans' wishful thinking.   I don't want to clog up this particular thread arguing about it, though.

Nevets, just for fun...isn't it possible the majority of people holed up inside Riverrun are Robb supporters?   If BF were to make off with Jeyne I'm sure he would have to have a little help.   

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/21/2016 at 4:18 AM, Curled Finger said:

I'm actually breaking my own rule about waiting for the REAL Forsaken chapter before tearing it to pieces looking for clues.   But I couldn't help it.   So many parallels to Dany's visions in the House of the Undying and Valyrian Steel armor--it got me.   Sure puts an even spookier shadow on Victarion's chapters for me.   And of course I'm all carried away speculating what Euron's up to, what Aeron's visions mean and why Moqorro is with Vic exactly.   This leak was much like the Alyane release for me, just full of good stuff.    ASOAIF speaks to each of us at different levels at various times.    This is my time to just dig the Greyjoys.  

I have to admit, the release of this chapter massively increased my interest in the Greyjoys and the entire Ironborn plot.  I was always invested with Theon and Asha, but less so with Aeron and Victarion (particularly the latter).  But The Forsaken just massively increased my desire to go back and re-read the Ironborn POVs in Feast in particular.  They take on a whole new meaning now!!!

I have re-read transcripts of The Forsaken a few times, and I am increasingly convinced that Aeron is not dead.  Well, not yet anyway.  And with Euron seemingly heading towards an inevitable naval battle - one in which I think he intends to use a serious amount of blood magic - I think Aeron has to stay alive long enough to witness it.  This gives us Aeron II, and maybe (though I am increasingly doubting it) Aeron III at a push.  There is power in king's blood, and Balon named himself king twice before Euron seized the initiative at the Kingsmoot.  Even if this does not give Aeron king's blood (as his father Quellon was not king) - king's blood does exist within the child Falia Flowers carries.  

I think that Euron will attack Oldtown at some point in Winds (which we will likely hear about/see through Sam) but before we get to that stage, Aeron will be the POV through which we will see what Euron is up to.  This sort of links into my belief that Areo will stay alive as long as we need a visual POV near Doran (and I'm not entirely sure how much we do need it, as Arianne is in contact with her father by raven and ultimately we need to see her and her negotiations rather than Doran reacting to it; it will be her that takes action to align Dorne with Aegon's cause).

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On 8/8/2016 at 8:06 AM, dornishdame said:

I have to admit, the release of this chapter massively increased my interest in the Greyjoys and the entire Ironborn plot.  I was always invested with Theon and Asha, but less so with Aeron and Victarion (particularly the latter).  But The Forsaken just massively increased my desire to go back and re-read the Ironborn POVs in Feast in particular.  They take on a whole new meaning now!!!

I have re-read transcripts of The Forsaken a few times, and I am increasingly convinced that Aeron is not dead.  Well, not yet anyway.  And with Euron seemingly heading towards an inevitable naval battle - one in which I think he intends to use a serious amount of blood magic - I think Aeron has to stay alive long enough to witness it.  This gives us Aeron II, and maybe (though I am increasingly doubting it) Aeron III at a push.  There is power in king's blood, and Balon named himself king twice before Euron seized the initiative at the Kingsmoot.  Even if this does not give Aeron king's blood (as his father Quellon was not king) - king's blood does exist within the child Falia Flowers carries.  

I think that Euron will attack Oldtown at some point in Winds (which we will likely hear about/see through Sam) but before we get to that stage, Aeron will be the POV through which we will see what Euron is up to.  This sort of links into my belief that Areo will stay alive as long as we need a visual POV near Doran (and I'm not entirely sure how much we do need it, as Arianne is in contact with her father by raven and ultimately we need to see her and her negotiations rather than Doran reacting to it; it will be her that takes action to align Dorne with Aegon's cause).

Yah this Forsaken chapter came out of nowhere.    We should have seen it coming considering our writer here, but how could we?   I admit I've reread the samples a few more times, too.   You could be right it doesn't actually say Aeron's dead.  Maybe I got ahead of myself in thinking there is no way to survive what Aeron's up against.   And yes, I think Euron is all about the blood magic in masses and there has to be something to Aeron bearing witness to his brother's sins against man and gods.    

I thought Euron was going to attack Old Town.   Now I'm not so sure.   Maybe he's given order to have it attacked, but I was left with the distinct impression that Euron was going to hightail it to Dany...and Vic.    It's positively fascinating the people he's chosen to rule in his absence.    It's like appointing commanders based on their lack of merit.   And they sure do seem to be digging the rule of their own little spots in Westeros.    I sure hope we get a peek at the Iron Islands again now that Asha's husband is in charge.     I would hate to lose all my Greyjoy POVs to Euron.   

I always keep that sage advice of yours close when predicting the future of characters.   This character will survive so long as his/her take on things is necessary.    But I still want to see Doran's reactions to things.    It got very slow after Season 6 ended so I've had time to catch up on all my you tube stuff.    I enjoy Preston Jacobs as there is no mistaking his love for the story.    He's got a big old conspiracy idea about the Dornish plot that is outlandish and a lot of fun to bandy about.    I watch these little things and wonder what Doran is really up to.   What's he always been up to?   Did Oberyn's education fit specifically into that plan?   Arianne is a lot more interesting now that she seems to have matured and I've really enjoyed the 2 samples from Winds.    I look forward to seeing that cave she runs across again. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello ladies and gentleman :)

 

I have been inspired by this thread (more like the wonderful people participating in it) to come out of hiding to participate. You are all so insightful, congenial and respectful to one another that I find staying out of this conversation to be irresistible. Thank you so much for bringing chivalry to the discussion, you must all be Florents :)

 

Any-who... Let us first examine where each of the POV characters were when we left off with them last (in both AFFC and ADWD since they occur somewhat simultaneously / concurrently, and because of this I will only be referencing each character's last known whereabouts congruent to their most recently seen chapter in either AFFC or ADWD, not both). Please forgive my formatting and possible stray thoughts, I have not posted anywhere on any forum in forever and a day..

 

A Feast for Crows

  • Brienne of Tarth – Injured (dying?) with Lady Stoneheart in the Riverlands

  • Samwell Tarly – In Oldtown, (Alleras, Marwyn, glass candles, oh my!)

  • Sansa Stark – The Gates of the Moon (in the Vale of Arryn... but look to tWOW entry)

  • Aeron Greyjoy – (I will move his name ahead in regards to his glorious tWOW chapter!!!)

  • Arianne Martell – (look to tWOW)

  • Arys Oakheart – In Sunspear (with Arianne)

  • Pate – Dead (face taken by Jaqen H'ghar)

 

A Dance with Dragons

  • Jon Snow – Stabbed and left for possible dead at the Wall

  • Tyrion Lannister – Outside of Mereen w/ the Second Sons (look ahead to tWOW)

  • Daenerys Targaryen – The more she drank, the more she shat, somewhere in the Dothraki Sea.

  • Theon Greyjoy - Escaping Winterfell (look ahead to tWOW)

  • Quentyn Martell – Dead in Mereen (though some believe otherwise apparently?)

  • Davos Seaworth - Last at White Harbor. Headed to Skagos for Rickon, Shaggy Dog and Osha.

  • Barristan Selmy - In Mereen, about to seize Hizdar and the city itself. (More in tWOW ahead)

  • Asha Greyjoy – w/ Stannis at the Crofter's village between the lakes.

  • Bran Stark - Learning the extent of his powers w/ Bloodraven north of the Wall.

  • Jon Connington - He and the Golden Company land in Cape Wrath and take Griffin's Roost.

  • Cersei Lannister – In King's Landing at the Red Keep following her walk of shame.

  • Victarion Greyjoy - On his way to Mereen to meet Daenerys.

  • Arya Stark - About to take on her first mission for the Faceless Men (in Braavos)

  • Areo Hotah - In Sunspear with Doran Martell.

  • Jaime Lannister – Leaving Pennytree with Brienne (I can hear Admiral Ackbar from here...)

  • Melisandre – Misenterpreting signs (as usual) at the Wall.

  • Varamyr Sixskins - Dead (for certain, so it's no matter)

  • Kevan Lannister – Dead (for certain, so it's no matter)


 

The Winds of Winter (confirmed chapters only)

  • Theon – At Crofter's village (with Stannis and Asha)

  • Arianne – On her way from Ghost Hill to the Stormlands / Storm's End (to meet JonCon)

  • Barristan – Preparing for battle in Mereen

  • Tyrion – With Brown Ben Plumm outside Mereen

  • Arya – Braavos, on her first (and completely botched) mission

  • Sansa – with Harry Hardyng at the Gates of the Moon

  • aaaaaand the poor, poor Damphair – Up shit's creek without a paddle (in the belly of the Silence, sailing south, en route to … Oldtown?)

 

As we can see, there is some major stuff happening, and there is the potential to have a bottleneck of POV's who are either together, or are soon to be together (barring unforeseen grrm-ish circumstances), though that might not actually end up being the case, as several of the possible viewpoints who are attached to places with multiple POV's have the potential to end up somewhere else entirely (Davos / Winterfell, Victarion / Mereen, Arya / Braavos, Jaime / Riverlands, Arianne / Stormlands). We have the following viewpoints in the following locations (setting aside the notion that Daenerys may be in Vaes Dothrak for a while before getting back to Mereen...):

 

  • The Riverlands: Brienne, Jaime (2 viewpoints)

  • Oldtown: Samwell, maybe the Damphair? (1, maybe 2 viewpoints?)

  • The Wall: Jon Snow, Melisandre (2 viewpoints)

  • Mereen (or near enough about): Tyrion, Barristan, Victarion.. Daenerys? (3 or 4 viewpoints)

  • Winterfell (or near enough): Theon, Asha (2 viewpoint)

  • North of the Wall: Davos, Bran (2 viewpoints)

  • The Stormlands: Jon Connington, Arianne (2 viewpoints)

  • King's Landing: Cersei (1 viewpoint)

  • Braavos: Arya (1 viewpoint, but for how long?)

  • Dorne: Areo Hotah, Arys Oakheart (2 viewpoints)

  • The Vale: Sansa (1 viewpoint)

 

Now that I have established where I believe each character to have left off (please be kind and correct me if I have been wrong about any of this as of yet), I suppose the meat and potatoes of this post should be about where I believe characters and POV's will intersect, meet up, and eventually MERGE (as this beautiful thread begs the question).

 

So let's see... I will start by eliminating (I believe that is what this game is all about) multiple points of view that I believe will be in the same place at the same time. This is where guessing comes heavily into play, and I take comfort in knowing the fact that I am nowhere near as clever as GRRM and will be totally happy when he writes something that I had never even thought of.

 

As sad as it is, and I love both of their arcs so much it hurts me to think about eliminating either of them, but I have to think that either Jaime or Brienne (gods please not both) will probably die relatively soon in the beginning of Winds. I honestly believe that Jaime has more to his story left than Brienne, probably through unresolved conflict with Cersei, so I am not eliminating him just yet. As romantic of an idea as it is to have Brienne become a Kingsguard once more to the next King on the Iron Throne, or to have her and Jaime follow through on their as of yet unexplored but deeply profound feelings for each other, I just don't think it's in the cards for them. I hope I am wrong, but I say we lose Brienne early in Winds and are left with Jaime as a POV in the Riverlands, until he moves on to venture back south to his endgame with Cersei. The wildcard for me would be if as this happens, Brienne lives to continue being the eyes in the Riverlands.

 

Next, let's talk about Oldtown. Oh man, so much is going to happen here. Between Sam, Alleras, and Marwyn conspiring opposite the Maesters, “Pate / Jaqen”, and Euron's eventual landing / invasion, there is so much to unpack here it is staggering. As my list states though I will now elaborate on, in all likelihood the only chance we have at an even semi-reliable view of things in Oldtown is Samwell. If we do see anything from the Damphair in Oldtown, stumbling over a great assumption that he will actually live to see the meat and potatoes of the invasion, I simply believe that he will be too messed up beyond repair from torture and shade of the evening to give any kind of reliable narrative of the events that will transpire. That is not to say, however, that he can't have one last epic cryptic vision before he meets his Drowned God. :)

 

At the Wall, I mean, I just don't see Jon Snow having a POV for a little while into Winds. As cool as it would be to get a Ghost chapter, and I do sincerely believe we may, I still do not believe it will be an accurate account of what is happening at the Wall. I believe it would moreover be a cryptic chapter filled with visions and voices of 3 eyed ravens... Until (if?) we do get a Jon Snow POV chapter again, I believe that Melisandre will be our eyes at the Wall. I know it's convenient, and I could come up with other alternatives to this, however none of them would feel as natural (Dolorous Edd POV) as Melisandre would, or they would feel as if other parts of the story were stalling just to have another set of eyes on the Wall (Davos). After Jon Snow comes back though? I think Mel's days (at LEAST at the Wall) are numbered. She has built up some seriously negative karma with her actions, and while GRRM doesn't always dish out what characters deserve, in this case I feel as though Melisandre's arc could be coming to completion in order to free up POVs. I know that is pretty weak reasoning and she could absolutely have more to her story (I want her to)... we shall see, and I would be super happy if she does. Maybe I am 50/50 on her survival in Winds. Bottom line, I believe Jon will still be our POV at the Wall for most of Winds (after he comes back). Watch me be completely wrong and we are done with Jon Snow POV's...

 

Mereen, Mereen, Mereen... Now here is a place where I can really see us grinding the axes a bit! We have an excessive amount of eyes here, and unfortunately for our favorite elderly knight, I think Barristan is a goner. He more than maybe any other POV character I see as having completed their arc. Not much more for him to do IMHO, so I think he dies early in the battle of Mereen. For certain we will keep Tyrion and Daenerys around for a long while, but Victarion? Oh I love his character, his smoking cannon arm, and his general “well at least I'm not Euron” persona, but I feel as though he will go the way of Quentin Martell (and by that I mean die even though I could envision a lot more story for him still), and probably die in the first quarter to third of Winds, probably right before Daenerys finally makes up her mind to sail to Westeros...

 

Winterfell, well this all depends on how long the battle takes and who wins... If Stannis wins and the Boltons are defeated, I think we might not see Winterfell for a good chunk of the middle of the book. I think perhaps after the battle it will be set aside for other story lines, only to be picked back up again towards the end of Winds for Jon Snow to go to the crypts and maybe (or maybe not) learn something. I feel like we won't lose Theon or Asha's POV (at first), though I do believe that Asha is not long for Planetos. I believe she will die before the end of tWOW.

 

North of the Wall will be MOST interesting. I am of the idea that Bran will be our main eyes in the Far North, though I am so unbelievably interested to see where Davos' travels will take him en route to Skagos to find Rickon and Osha. I want to learn of Unicorns and cannibals and their effect on the already wild Rickon... I don't believe we will lose either of these POV's in Winds.

 

I do not believe that we will be in the Stormlands for long. JonCon has Greyscale and will probably die before we are a third of the way into tWOW, but it will be interesting to see if he infects Westeros with Greyscale on his way out. I believe that Arianne's POV will move her towards King's Landing, where she will provide a counterpoint view to Cersei and her madness.

 

Right on schedule, that brings us to King's Landing. Oh boy will things get nuts here in Winds! I feel like the combination of Cersei / Arianne as kind of a yin to her yang POV will work especially well here, and the idea that just as the whirlwind tornadoes into a crescendo, we will interject Jaime's POV and then all the King's horses and all the King's men... well, they won't be putting anyone back together again. Okay sorry that was something, but I couldn't help it... What I mean is that I believe that by the end of Winds, I think there is a more than decent chance that Cersei, Jaime, and Arianne are all dead.

 

In Braavos, I do not believe we will be there for long. Arya / Mercy has blown her cover and overstayed her welcome come the Mercy chapter in Winds, and I don't see her just sitting in Braavos at all after that. I feel like we may not come back to Braavos once she leaves until something of utmost importance brings us back there (lemon trees? Red doors?)...

 

Dorne is interesting. I believe I remember GRRM saying that we will be seeing a lot of Dorne in Winds and I like the sound of that. There is a lot of story to tell still with whatever Doran is planning, and whether or not he will get to see that plan through to fruition since he has barely shared his plans with anyone. I don't see us losing any POV in Dorne since there is so much at play still.

 

I feel the same way about the Vale. We simply do not have enough eyes or information to lose any POV's in the Vale. If anything we need more! There is so much story about to happen there.

 

Hmm, that was a lot of words for I'm not even sure how much information that is different than everyone else, ha. To summarize, I believe that we will lose the following POV's by the end of The Winds of Winter:

 

Brienne

Damphair

Arys Oakheart

Asha

Jon Connington

Cersei

Jaime

Arianne

Victarion

Melisandre (wild card)

Barristan

 

Wow, I killed off way more characters than I thought I would as I come to the end of this post! As some of you have so eloquently put it before me, I had no idea that I would end up typing this much when I started out. It is only because all of you in this thread have been so positive and informative, interesting and provocative with your thoughts and theories that I have felt comfortable coming out of my shell and conversing with you all. Thank you all so much for the wonderful discussion!

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