Merging Story Lines

[Curled Finger]

Hi Wendel Shoemaker, welcome to the thread that will maybe allow you to quote or not.   This evening I cannot, so I hope you can see this.   I'm so pleased to see you have some hope for both Jamie and Brienne surviving.  I've been grappling with so much potential death and destruction it's easy to lose sight of characters simply merging rather than dying.   GRRM said Winds will be reduced to 13 POVs, of course we can't be sure how reliable he is can we?   If you read the beginning of this topic a kind poster, Chill Polly I believe, actually listed the confirmed POVs which number at 8, I think.   If I go back I am lost and will no doubt lose all my typing.   But it is there.   As Dornish Dame has pointed out, we have some blind spots in Winds where major things are happening and we have no POV to give us the story ie, Edmure & Jeyne's relocation party and Winterfell.  I am preparing for Bran and Sam to be my eyes on many of these places since they seem to be the only characters with any semblance of access to an omniscient overview of things.  As to those places where 2 or more characters reside I am secretly hoping Jon will be our POV in the North and Mel can sacrifice herself. Jamie & Brienne are so good together as a team I would almost enjoy a "he thought, she thought" combined POV from them. As to Jon Con & Arienne, I got nothing.   I don't think there is room for both in Aegon's story.   Theon's latest metamorphosis is intriguing and I hope to get all of him from him as Asha can't possibly understand what goes on his his head, but I'm watching Asha to become a hero, so I need to be in her head, too.   Why yes Wendel, TWOW should be written to accommodate me--kidding.   This series is such a pioneer in literature I almost feel guilty and definitely feel foolish for wanting anything out of it as the tale will unwind in brilliant and unexpected ways.   I do hope the theme will resoundingly get the story back on track and get everyone back in Westeros.  Thanks for your thoughts and support for continued existences for both Brienne and Jamie.  

[Wendel Shoemaker]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi Wendel Shoemaker, welcome to the thread that will maybe allow you to quote or not.   This evening I cannot, so I hope you can see this.   I'm so pleased to see you have some hope for both Jamie and Brienne surviving.  I've been grappling with so much potential death and destruction it's easy to lose sight of characters simply merging rather than dying.   GRRM said Winds will be reduced to 13 POVs, of course we can't be sure how reliable he is can we?   If you read the beginning of this topic a kind poster, Chill Polly I believe, actually listed the confirmed POVs which number at 8, I think.   If I go back I am lost and will no doubt lose all my typing.   But it is there.   As Dornish Dame has pointed out, we have some blind spots in Winds where major things are happening and we have no POV to give us the story ie, Edmure & Jeyne's relocation party and Winterfell.  I am preparing for Bran and Sam to be my eyes on many of these places since they seem to be the only characters with any semblance of access to an omniscient overview of things.  As to those places where 2 or more characters reside I am secretly hoping Jon will be our POV in the North and Mel can sacrifice herself. Jamie & Brienne are so good together as a team I would almost enjoy a "he thought, she thought" combined POV from them. As to Jon Con & Arienne, I got nothing.   I don't think there is room for both in Aegon's story.   Theon's latest metamorphosis is intriguing and I hope to get all of him from him as Asha can't possibly understand what goes on his his head, but I'm watching Asha to become a hero, so I need to be in her head, too.   Why yes Wendel, TWOW should be written to accommodate me--kidding.   This series is such a pioneer in literature I almost feel guilty and definitely feel foolish for wanting anything out of it as the tale will unwind in brilliant and unexpected ways.   I do hope the theme will resoundingly get the story back on track and get everyone back in Westeros.  Thanks for your thoughts and support for continued existences for both Brienne and Jamie.  

Ah right I forgot he said he would reduce POV's to 13. I wouldn't hold that to him though considering it has been a few years since he has said that (I think). And really, if he was to only choose 13 POV's, Aerion would be a weird choice over a bigger character. Maybe by the end there will only be 13 (deaths or no) but I'm still expecting to see some one time POV's pop in.

I could be wrong though. Maybe this is George's response to the criticism of AFFC and ADWD, since it seems like a lot of people thought there were too many POV's.

[dornishdame]

On 2/6/2016 at 4:09 AM, Curled Finger said:

The whole Jon/Ygritte thing is so well, bittersweet.  It's a lovely and sad story.  While I agree with you that Jon has isolated himself it was necessary to send people he trusted precisely to the places they were sent.   It's unfortunate that Jon was unable to amass more support from the NW.  I wonder if Sam, Gilly, the baby and Maester Aemon would have been sent away at all if Mel had not been in house?   Like most things, the purpose will likely be two fold, but still...

I tend to think, as you say, that it is two-fold - at least, Sam being sent away is. I think had Aemon not been sent away then he would probably have died in a way similar to what they did on the TV show. Jon needed to be seriously isolated within the Watch, as I do not think that the Ides of Marsh would have been happened had Aemon still been around. Mormont's death happened away from Aemon, at Craster's, remember. With Sam, there was a need to get him to the Citadel so that we would have a POV there for multiple reasons - the knowledge held there, the attack on Oldtown by the Ironborn that I think will happen in Winds, and a continuation of the Pate mystery - what are the FM after? Yes, Melisandre's presence means that they are sent away, but I think that even without Melisandre, there is a need to isolate Jon and to get a regular POV into Oldtown without creating a new POV. 

It is unfortunate, as you say, that Jon was unable to gain more support. I think that the deaths while Bowen Marsh was Castellan and when Jon was LC did not help. I also think that while Jon is good at putting his arguments to the wildlings through Val, he didn't possess the same skill with his brothers. Too many of them were unconvinced of who their true enemy was. But then, I think Jon needed this sort of betrayal to become the leader he has the ability to be. He has the same ability Mance had to inspire loyalty among the wildlings. They follow strong leaders - and Jon has the ability to be one. 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

GRRM said Winds will be reduced to 13 POVs, of course we can't be sure how reliable he is can we?   If you read the beginning of this topic a kind poster, Chill Polly I believe, actually listed the confirmed POVs which number at 8, I think.   If I go back I am lost and will no doubt lose all my typing.   But it is there.   As Dornish Dame has pointed out, we have some blind spots in Winds where major things are happening and we have no POV to give us the story ie, Edmure & Jeyne's relocation party and Winterfell.  I am preparing for Bran and Sam to be my eyes on many of these places since they seem to be the only characters with any semblance of access to an omniscient overview of things.  As to those places where 2 or more characters reside I am secretly hoping Jon will be our POV in the North and Mel can sacrifice herself. Jamie & Brienne are so good together as a team I would almost enjoy a "he thought, she thought" combined POV from them. As to Jon Con & Arienne, I got nothing.   I don't think there is room for both in Aegon's story.   Theon's latest metamorphosis is intriguing and I hope to get all of him from him as Asha can't possibly understand what goes on his his head, but I'm watching Asha to become a hero, so I need to be in her head, too. 

The 8 POVs for whom chapters have been released/read from/discussed are:

Aeron, Victarion, Theon, Barristan, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion and Arianne. 

The following have also been POV characters in the series and are still alive (I am optimistically including Jon Snow in this!):

Daenerys, Jon Snow, Bran, Davos, Jaime, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, Areo, Asha, Jon Connington and Melisandre. 

That gives us 20 POV characters to cut down to 13 (assuming that Jon Snow is resurrected and remains a POV character). And I think it is possible to do that without merging POVs in the same location. Sadly! I think it likely that seven of the above characters will be dead by the end of Winds. I am sure I recall reading somewhere (it may even have been this thread) that Aeron Greyjoy was originally intended to be a prologue character. If that is the case, then it is likely his time may be up soon. And, if Aegon were to gain and lose the throne within the space of Winds, then that could remove Jon Connington and Arianne from the equation. Cersei is, as I have said before, likely to survive until the end of Winds or the beginning of Dream.  The Lannisters need to fall from grace completely if there is to be multiple occupants of the Iron Throne before the end of the series - and that fall from grace will include the death of Cersei. 

Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion are currently in and around Meereen with Daenerys nearby. I think it unlikely that all four will survive to leave Meereen intact. Add to that, I unfortunately think it unlikely (though not impossible) that both Jaime and Brienne will survive Lady Stoneheart. Beric and Thoros, yes - they would have given them a fair trial. But I am not sure Lady Stoneheart knows the meaning of those words. Given his position in Oldtown, I think that Sam will survive until at least Dream. There is too much we need to see in Oldtown to get rid of our only POV character there.

We have spoken previously of the northern POVs - Asha, Theon, Davos, Melisandre, Bran and Jon Snow. Asha, as I have said before, has I think come to the end of her usage. While it is possible that she will take The Reader's hints and get Theon to the Iron Islands to try and get the result of the Kingsmoot overturned, I think that at the end of Dance she was disheartened and lacked purpose. I don't see her surviving Winds. Davos may not survive Skagos - though I think he will at least arrange for Rickon to return to mainland Westeros. Theon is the mystery one, for me. There is the possibility that he could be killed by Stannis and his men for betraying Robb, taking Winterfell and the suspected murder of Bran and Rickon. But then, as I said above, he could end up back in the Iron Islands seeking his father's crown. Melisandre will, I think, survive a time. She has a role to play in the War of the Dawn. And (probably) in resurrecting Jon Snow. Jon Snow - again, I think he has a role to play, but as was the case with Lady Stoneheart it is possible a returned Jon will not be a POV character. And Bran - as you have pointed out - is the perfect POV to cover anywhere we have a blind spot!

So, it is possible that we can remove seven POVs from the equation before the end of Winds through death. That said, there is - particularly in and around Meereen - the potential for the merging of POVs. 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Wendel Shoemaker said:

Ah right I forgot he said he would reduce POV's to 13. I wouldn't hold that to him though considering it has been a few years since he has said that (I think). And really, if he was to only choose 13 POV's, Aerion would be a weird choice over a bigger character. Maybe by the end there will only be 13 (deaths or no) but I'm still expecting to see some one time POV's pop in.

I could be wrong though. Maybe this is George's response to the criticism of AFFC and ADWD, since it seems like a lot of people thought there were too many POV's.

I'm in book 3 of ASOS in my reread (re listen) adventure.   There is no way this is the story he's telling in Winds.   Perhaps I will feel differently after Feast or Dance, but geez, this is brilliant and had direction.   I agree, Aeron is a weird one to give a voice to when Jon may very well be conscious outside his body--but maybe it means something?   I'm hung up on the Seven having no apparent magical properties or power these days and wondering if that means something.   The worst part of rereading is it always reels me back to all the things I originally thought and I thought I was past all that.   Egad, what if I was right?   IDK, I thought Dance was really good, filled with clues and possibility, but when a book has to be split into 2 giant tomes and only 1 of those books is well received telling the same story at the same time as the other...something's definitely wrong.   So I agree with the premise of reducing story tellers, though I'm not sold on which characters are best suited to tell the story.  I love Brienne and her adventures, but it was too much and I felt like an unwilling captive during the evening news when the Vietnam war was on.  Did we really need all the FM adventures and endless weeks of Stannis preparing to march on Winterfell and on and on and on.  

Now you have me intrigued with the prospect of one time POVs.   Who do you like for a single chapter and what would you expect them to tell?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, dornishdame said:

I tend to think, as you say, that it is two-fold - at least, Sam being sent away is. I think had Aemon not been sent away then he would probably have died in a way similar to what they did on the TV show. Jon needed to be seriously isolated within the Watch, as I do not think that the Ides of Marsh would have been happened had Aemon still been around. Mormont's death happened away from Aemon, at Craster's, remember. With Sam, there was a need to get him to the Citadel so that we would have a POV there for multiple reasons - the knowledge held there, the attack on Oldtown by the Ironborn that I think will happen in Winds, and a continuation of the Pate mystery - what are the FM after? Yes, Melisandre's presence means that they are sent away, but I think that even without Melisandre, there is a need to isolate Jon and to get a regular POV into Oldtown without creating a new POV. 

It is unfortunate, as you say, that Jon was unable to gain more support. I think that the deaths while Bowen Marsh was Castellan and when Jon was LC did not help. I also think that while Jon is good at putting his arguments to the wildlings through Val, he didn't possess the same skill with his brothers. Too many of them were unconvinced of who their true enemy was. But then, I think Jon needed this sort of betrayal to become the leader he has the ability to be. He has the same ability Mance had to inspire loyalty among the wildlings. They follow strong leaders - and Jon has the ability to be one. 

The 8 POVs for whom chapters have been released/read from/discussed are:

Aeron, Victarion, Theon, Barristan, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion and Arianne. 

The following have also been POV characters in the series and are still alive (I am optimistically including Jon Snow in this!):

Daenerys, Jon Snow, Bran, Davos, Jaime, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, Areo, Asha, Jon Connington and Melisandre. 

That gives us 20 POV characters to cut down to 13 (assuming that Jon Snow is resurrected and remains a POV character). And I think it is possible to do that without merging POVs in the same location. Sadly! I think it likely that seven of the above characters will be dead by the end of Winds. I am sure I recall reading somewhere (it may even have been this thread) that Aeron Greyjoy was originally intended to be a prologue character. If that is the case, then it is likely his time may be up soon. And, if Aegon were to gain and lose the throne within the space of Winds, then that could remove Jon Connington and Arianne from the equation. Cersei is, as I have said before, likely to survive until the end of Winds or the beginning of Dream.  The Lannisters need to fall from grace completely if there is to be multiple occupants of the Iron Throne before the end of the series - and that fall from grace will include the death of Cersei. 

Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion are currently in and around Meereen with Daenerys nearby. I think it unlikely that all four will survive to leave Meereen intact. Add to that, I unfortunately think it unlikely (though not impossible) that both Jaime and Brienne will survive Lady Stoneheart. Beric and Thoros, yes - they would have given them a fair trial. But I am not sure Lady Stoneheart knows the meaning of those words. Given his position in Oldtown, I think that Sam will survive until at least Dream. There is too much we need to see in Oldtown to get rid of our only POV character there.

We have spoken previously of the northern POVs - Asha, Theon, Davos, Melisandre, Bran and Jon Snow. Asha, as I have said before, has I think come to the end of her usage. While it is possible that she will take The Reader's hints and get Theon to the Iron Islands to try and get the result of the Kingsmoot overturned, I think that at the end of Dance she was disheartened and lacked purpose. I don't see her surviving Winds. Davos may not survive Skagos - though I think he will at least arrange for Rickon to return to mainland Westeros. Theon is the mystery one, for me. There is the possibility that he could be killed by Stannis and his men for betraying Robb, taking Winterfell and the suspected murder of Bran and Rickon. But then, as I said above, he could end up back in the Iron Islands seeking his father's crown. Melisandre will, I think, survive a time. She has a role to play in the War of the Dawn. And (probably) in resurrecting Jon Snow. Jon Snow - again, I think he has a role to play, but as was the case with Lady Stoneheart it is possible a returned Jon will not be a POV character. And Bran - as you have pointed out - is the perfect POV to cover anywhere we have a blind spot!

So, it is possible that we can remove seven POVs from the equation before the end of Winds through death. That said, there is - particularly in and around Meereen - the potential for the merging of POVs. 

Hi Dame--thanks so much for your concise anthology of ideas.   It's good to have your thoughts in a single place so everyone can see them at a glance.  

I'm going to get a little hopeful and sappy and tell you that I think the other reason Gilly & the Baby being sent away is just as Sam muses--they will give him street cred with his folks.   Sorry, I just love that.   That said, I hope they are sent to the Reach as the 1st Wildling settlers as the son of the King Beyond The Wall should matter somewhere in future politics?   As I say, I don't trust anything on the surface in this story, so your thoughts on this are eagerly anticipated...As to the lack of support for Jon from the NW brothers they seem to be steadfastly opposed to him.   I don't really see any avenue Jon could have taken to get their support for integrating the Wildlings.   They are in their own way a bunch of elitist bastards.   Aryagonnakill#2 mentioned in another thread that Jon could have told Marsh about funding from the Iron Bank but suspiciously did not.  That's some interesting food for thought given how often Marsh complained about the expense of feeding everyone with Winter looming. 

I think your suspicions regarding potential deaths is well reasoned.  And you sure killed off 3 of them with a quickness, thanks.  Since you have me convinced Bran can tell the story where we have no POV how do you feel about a relatively omniscient POV so late in this game?   Can our sweet Bran tell the tale?  Do you think it would be strange to get Jon without a POV?  I think when a POV is lost or hidden GRRM uses it as a way to keep important thoughts, memories and plans from us.   The other purpose for that is because the story may have changed as in Jamie's case.  Cat was a pretty easy character to predict actions for and LSH isn't very hard to figure out.   Jon is a more layered and complex character with a much larger presence in the story.   Part of his beauty is knowing his intentions and conflict.  

I have to agree with you about Theon and Asha only inversely.   Asha is a warrior and as I've said, I'm tapping her for VS and that does skewer my outlook for a character.   I only get 12 of them after all!   Theon is fascinating without actually doing anything.   As much as I would miss his internal monologue I don't really see what he can do for the story now.   Perhaps you see some way he can get to the Iron Islands and pull off a Kingsmoot without Asha?   How about I trade you Mel for Asha, as I see my princess as also having a part to play in the War for Dawn but absolutely nothing to do with Jon Snow?  Can we get trading cards so I can power Asha up? 

I'm unable to quit pondering Nevets' idea about The Battle of Fire being lost.   Dany does her thing and heads west without anyone back in Mereen while Tyrion has to figure out how to escape with the remnants of Dany's loyal.  I love Vic, but always saw him as a minor character, but that doesn't mean I'm not fascinated by his mission and Moqorro.  Is any of it really all that important over all?   Probably not.  I'm not so sure Barristan doesn't have a big job waiting for him in Westeros, so he isn't so easy for me to kill off yet.   In doing away with Arienne so efficiently do you think Areo has a future?

Thanks for all your words and thoughts and consideration Dame.   I gotta go find my power up card. 

[dornishdame]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi Dame--thanks so much for your concise anthology of ideas.   It's good to have your thoughts in a single place so everyone can see them at a glance.  

I'm going to get a little hopeful and sappy and tell you that I think the other reason Gilly & the Baby being sent away is just as Sam muses--they will give him street cred with his folks.   Sorry, I just love that.   That said, I hope they are sent to the Reach as the 1st Wildling settlers as the son of the King Beyond The Wall should matter somewhere in future politics?   As I say, I don't trust anything on the surface in this story, so your thoughts on this are eagerly anticipated...As to the lack of support for Jon from the NW brothers they seem to be steadfastly opposed to him.   I don't really see any avenue Jon could have taken to get their support for integrating the Wildlings.   They are in their own way a bunch of elitist bastards.   Aryagonnakill#2 mentioned in another thread that Jon could have told Marsh about funding from the Iron Bank but suspiciously did not.  That's some interesting food for thought given how often Marsh complained about the expense of feeding everyone with Winter looming. 

I think your suspicions regarding potential deaths is well reasoned.  And you sure killed off 3 of them with a quickness, thanks.  Since you have me convinced Bran can tell the story where we have no POV how do you feel about a relatively omniscient POV so late in this game?   Can our sweet Bran tell the tale?  Do you think it would be strange to get Jon without a POV?  I think when a POV is lost or hidden GRRM uses it as a way to keep important thoughts, memories and plans from us.   The other purpose for that is because the story may have changed as in Jamie's case.  Cat was a pretty easy character to predict actions for and LSH isn't very hard to figure out.   Jon is a more layered and complex character with a much larger presence in the story.   Part of his beauty is knowing his intentions and conflict.  

I have to agree with you about Theon and Asha only inversely.   Asha is a warrior and as I've said, I'm tapping her for VS and that does skewer my outlook for a character.   I only get 12 of them after all!   Theon is fascinating without actually doing anything.   As much as I would miss his internal monologue I don't really see what he can do for the story now.   Perhaps you see some way he can get to the Iron Islands and pull off a Kingsmoot without Asha?   How about I trade you Mel for Asha, as I see my princess as also having a part to play in the War for Dawn but absolutely nothing to do with Jon Snow?  Can we get trading cards so I can power Asha up? 

I'm unable to quit pondering Nevets' idea about The Battle of Fire being lost.   Dany does her thing and heads west without anyone back in Mereen while Tyrion has to figure out how to escape with the remnants of Dany's loyal.  I love Vic, but always saw him as a minor character, but that doesn't mean I'm not fascinated by his mission and Moqorro.  Is any of it really all that important over all?   Probably not.  I'm not so sure Barristan doesn't have a big job waiting for him in Westeros, so he isn't so easy for me to kill off yet.   In doing away with Arienne so efficiently do you think Areo has a future?

Thanks for all your words and thoughts and consideration Dame.   I gotta go find my power up card. 

Ha ha! I'm going to start with Arianne - I am a dornishdame after all! - Areo does have a future, in proximity to Doran and telling us what is going on with the Prince of Dorne. I think that he will survive the hunt of Darkstar (personally, I do wonder if Darkstar was the person who told on Arianne - after all, he fits the m.o for Doran and his 'snake in the grass' tactics he worked on with Oberyn) and live to return to Sunspear. It allows us to have a POV with Doran after Arianne leaves Sunspear to parlay with Aegon and Jon Connington. 

I hear you on Asha - I probably feel the same way about Jon Snow, who I want/need to stay alive!!! - perhaps she will survive. I am only giving my opinion, and as I say it is entirely possible that she considers what The Reader had to say. The only time a Kingsmoot was overturned was for a son that was not present. I am only going on her feelings in Dance, and in meeting Theon in Winds her mental state may change. 

I agree that Asha is, essentially, a warrior. That is one of the reasons I like her, Arya, Alys Karstark and the Mormont women. They do not conform to the norm and fight for what belongs to them and what they believe in. But, at the same time I accept that not everyone I like will make it to the end of Dream! 

The idea of the Battle of Fire being lost...............it is possible that Daenerys could go west with a united khalasar and ignore those in Meereen, but I do not think she will. She thinks too highly of them and I do not think she would go to Westeros without anyone who knows of the Seven Kingdoms - such as Barristan. And I do not think she would leave Essos without someone who has in depth knowledge of the place she means to conquer. Victarion, on the other hand, is - in my opinion - expendable. I do not believe that Euron will be defeated by anyone within his own House - even if Theon does go back to the Iron Islands to claim Balon's crown. I think that it will take Daenerys and her dragons - or what is left of them - to defeat Euron. Victarion will, in my personal view, die in Winds. He has no purpose in the books beyond providing a navy for Daenerys. 

Bowen Marsh - I do not believe Jon trusted enough to confide in him. And that goes back to what I have said before about Jon isolating himself. But, I also think that Marsh knew about the deal with the Iron Bank and said nothing. Because to do so would be to admit that he had been spying on Jon. I don't like Marsh - unsurprisingly! And I do think that he has been working against Jon since the moment Jon was elected LC. 

Regarding Bran, I think that he has been set up as our ultimate POV, and hope that he will live up to that. Dance certainly sets him up that way, and I hope that he is the key to a lot of the information we lack! 

[The Egg]

I think Areo is definitely out of the story. After all, he only served as an introduction to Dorne, but I can't see him really doing something in the story, nor he is an important character of his own. He either dies (not likely, I think) or GRRM just forgets about him.

So this leaves us with 19 characters:

1. Dany, Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan in Meereen and its closest surroundings
2. Arianne and Jon Connington in the South
3. Sam, Sansa, Arya, Bran being everyone on their own, with little to none chance to meet up with other POVs before the end of Winds
4. Damphair in the Iron Islands, possibly in the Reach
5. Cersei in King's Landing
6. Jaime and Brienne in the Riverlands
7. Davos, Theon and Asha in the North
8. Jon Snow and Melisandre at the Wall

So, I think all the characters from group 3 are safe: their all too important to the series, none of their arcs is complete (actually, they started it in AFFC/ADWD) and none of them can be left behind as POV without killing the character, which is extremely unlikely as things are at the end of ADWD.

From group 1, I'm sure either Barristan or Victarion will die quite early in TWOW, either in the battle or not so long after. And, even if one or both of them survive, they can lose their POV if they're with Tyrion and Dany. These two are not likely to die nor to lose their POV until far into ADOS at least, so I'd say that this group will be deprived of one or two POVs.
As for what happens there, I'm an enthusiast supporter of the BoF being lost with Danana firing the Yunkai's after the battle and the flying to Westeros. She has to run before it's too late.

JonCon most likely won't be both POV by the end of TWOW. I don't know how long it'll take for greyscale to take JonCon, but even if he doesn't die, he'll probably lose his POV to either Arianne or Cersei or anyone close to him, since he won't be making the story on his own and Arianne is a much deeper character, I can't see her loosing her POV.

Damphair may have his chapter(s), but he's doomed for me. He'll tell us a story, probably an important one, then he'll make it to the Downed God's watery halls, finally. Seriously, I can't wait.

Cersei... that's hard. She won't lose her POV, for sure, but I don't know if she'll make it to ADOS. Personally, I think Jaime will reveal Tommen to be his son, the Faith would kill him, and she'd hang herself. That'd be a pretty awesome way to Valonqar her. Anyway, I don't know if her fall will be in TWOW or ADOS, so she's a big question mark...

...exactly as her twin brother is. I can see Brienne running away from LSH, I believe her arc is not finished, but I don't know for Jaime. He could make it too, since he has to Valonqar Cersei, but I really can't see how, especially without killing Brienne (something I can't see him doing, regardless of the situation). In any case, 0 probability of merging POVs, so this group could go -2, -1 or even stay the same.

As for the North, I can't see Asha keeping her POV. Iron Islands aren't important enough for GRRM to want a POV there this far and she literally has nothing to do where she is now. Maybe she'll die heroically, maybe she'll only lose her POV, but I think saying she's a -1 POV is a safe bet. Do we really care who's gonna seat on the Seastone Chair?
On the other hand, I believe Theon will survive. He went through too much to die at the hand of Stannis, to be honest. Maybe his arc is finished (he won't get a crown, that's for sure) but I don't think he dies soon, he's broken enough for GRRM to forcing him to live.
Davos is another matter. I bet Skagos won't be his tomb, but I don't know what he's going to do afterwards. Definitely he'll head to Winterfell if the BoI is won by Stannis, but if it isn't, I don't know where he could hide out with Rickon. He could lose his POV, though, and I'm pretty sure we won't hear from him for a while, so he may be another -1 POV, after all.

Last but not least, Jon Snow and Melisandre of Asshai. One of the two will lose their POV for sure: either Meli sacrifices herself to save Jon and make him the AAR, or Jon is only revived and thus he loses his POV, as Cat before him. Hopefully, however, that POV will be nicely spent.

 

So, it appers I killed even too many POV, leaving something between 10 and 14 POVs at the end of TWOW. So, if my bet prove correct, only one between Jaime, Brienne, Cersei and Victarion dies in TWOW... I hope it's Vic or Cersei, I don't want LSH to harm those two!
Or, more likely, my bets on JonCon, Damphair and Asha weren't as safe as I thought

[Curled Finger]

47 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Ha ha! I'm going to start with Arianne - I am a dornishdame after all! - Areo does have a future, in proximity to Doran and telling us what is going on with the Prince of Dorne. I think that he will survive the hunt of Darkstar (personally, I do wonder if Darkstar was the person who told on Arianne - after all, he fits the m.o for Doran and his 'snake in the grass' tactics he worked on with Oberyn) and live to return to Sunspear. It allows us to have a POV with Doran after Arianne leaves Sunspear to parlay with Aegon and Jon Connington. 

I hear you on Asha - I probably feel the same way about Jon Snow, who I want/need to stay alive!!! - perhaps she will survive. I am only giving my opinion, and as I say it is entirely possible that she considers what The Reader had to say. The only time a Kingsmoot was overturned was for a son that was not present. I am only going on her feelings in Dance, and in meeting Theon in Winds her mental state may change. 

I agree that Asha is, essentially, a warrior. That is one of the reasons I like her, Arya, Alys Karstark and the Mormont women. They do not conform to the norm and fight for what belongs to them and what they believe in. But, at the same time I accept that not everyone I like will make it to the end of Dream! 

The idea of the Battle of Fire being lost...............it is possible that Daenerys could go west with a united khalasar and ignore those in Meereen, but I do not think she will. She thinks too highly of them and I do not think she would go to Westeros without anyone who knows of the Seven Kingdoms - such as Barristan. And I do not think she would leave Essos without someone who has in depth knowledge of the place she means to conquer. Victarion, on the other hand, is - in my opinion - expendable. I do not believe that Euron will be defeated by anyone within his own House - even if Theon does go back to the Iron Islands to claim Balon's crown. I think that it will take Daenerys and her dragons - or what is left of them - to defeat Euron. Victarion will, in my personal view, die in Winds. He has no purpose in the books beyond providing a navy for Daenerys. 

Bowen Marsh - I do not believe Jon trusted enough to confide in him. And that goes back to what I have said before about Jon isolating himself. But, I also think that Marsh knew about the deal with the Iron Bank and said nothing. Because to do so would be to admit that he had been spying on Jon. I don't like Marsh - unsurprisingly! And I do think that he has been working against Jon since the moment Jon was elected LC. 

Regarding Bran, I think that he has been set up as our ultimate POV, and hope that he will live up to that. Dance certainly sets him up that way, and I hope that he is the key to a lot of the information we lack! 

Whew, thanks Dame.   You didn't mention Aero and to be honest I think he's such a BAMF and so freaking loyal it would be a shame to lose him.   And I think Doran bears very close monitoring.   After 3 going on 4 years of this I've only tapped 3 heroes  (all women, curiously), but Areo made the list of contenders 1st read.   Love the guy.   Dark Star?   I'm not sure about that guy at all and look forward to rereading him soon.   I read a lot about what a jerk let down he is, but I thought he pulled his sword and purposely missed Myrcella. Most dangerous man in Dorne?  I thought it was because he knew of the plot then abandoned his conspirators after thwarting the attempt.   I could be way off, it's just hard for me to see any Dayne as a bad guy.  I will defer to your more discerning and critical eye when I see him again and try to hear him with more suspicion.

Like/not like isn't so much with me as who will be a hero and wield a sword as a companion.   I had the swords matched up perfectly after the 1st read and lose more and more each time after.   Asha is cool--I think she is the hope for the future if the IB are to become more than an unpleasantry outside the 7 Kingdoms.  Maybe they are destined to be sunk or absorbed or something I haven't yet thought of.   I just think they are important, as much as Dorne, and as much outside the day to day politics of the kingdom.    This needs to be rectified if there is to be unity and peace.  So yes, I expect a lot of Asha, but it could be that Theon will bring the IB into the fold.   Side note, though it's true I have this weird investment in those I expect to bear the swords I do expect to lose them all during that quest--they just have to make it that far.   We see the end differently and you wouldn't be the first to call me nuts.  

The problem with Jon having to be resurrected is the possibility that he will be changed.   There was a time when the forum was on fire with speculation that Dany "died" or went through some striking life altering change in Dance.   Maybe she did, all I have is the last chapter and I didn't see her die.   But I think she will be changed and this seems natural to me.  We've discussed possible changes in Jon and I expect this is GRRM's answer to growing up in Westeros.   They need to be smarter, tougher, meaner.   I'm almost ready for this and expect it will have to happen to Bran as well.  

Bowen was spying on Jon--nice.   He will certainly deserve whatever is coming to him in Winds. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, The Egg said:

I think Areo is definitely out of the story. After all, he only served as an introduction to Dorne, but I can't see him really doing something in the story, nor he is an important character of his own. He either dies (not likely, I think) or GRRM just forgets about him.

So this leaves us with 19 characters:

1. Dany, Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan in Meereen and its closest surroundings
2. Arianne and Jon Connington in the South
3. Sam, Sansa, Arya, Bran being everyone on their own, with little to none chance to meet up with other POVs before the end of Winds
4. Damphair in the Iron Islands, possibly in the Reach
5. Cersei in King's Landing
6. Jaime and Brienne in the Riverlands
7. Davos, Theon and Asha in the North
8. Jon Snow and Melisandre at the Wall

So, I think all the characters from group 3 are safe: their all too important to the series, none of their arcs is complete (actually, they started it in AFFC/ADWD) and none of them can be left behind as POV without killing the character, which is extremely unlikely as things are at the end of ADWD.

From group 1, I'm sure either Barristan or Victarion will die quite early in TWOW, either in the battle or not so long after. And, even if one or both of them survive, they can lose their POV if they're with Tyrion and Dany. These two are not likely to die nor to lose their POV until far into ADOS at least, so I'd say that this group will be deprived of one or two POVs.
As for what happens there, I'm an enthusiast supporter of the BoF being lost with Danana firing the Yunkai's after the battle and the flying to Westeros. She has to run before it's too late.

JonCon most likely won't be both POV by the end of TWOW. I don't know how long it'll take for greyscale to take JonCon, but even if he doesn't die, he'll probably lose his POV to either Arianne or Cersei or anyone close to him, since he won't be making the story on his own and Arianne is a much deeper character, I can't see her loosing her POV.

Damphair may have his chapter(s), but he's doomed for me. He'll tell us a story, probably an important one, then he'll make it to the Downed God's watery halls, finally. Seriously, I can't wait.

Cersei... that's hard. She won't lose her POV, for sure, but I don't know if she'll make it to ADOS. Personally, I think Jaime will reveal Tommen to be his son, the Faith would kill him, and she'd hang herself. That'd be a pretty awesome way to Valonqar her. Anyway, I don't know if her fall will be in TWOW or ADOS, so she's a big question mark...

...exactly as her twin brother is. I can see Brienne running away from LSH, I believe her arc is not finished, but I don't know for Jaime. He could make it too, since he has to Valonqar Cersei, but I really can't see how, especially without killing Brienne (something I can't see him doing, regardless of the situation). In any case, 0 probability of merging POVs, so this group could go -2, -1 or even stay the same.

As for the North, I can't see Asha keeping her POV. Iron Islands aren't important enough for GRRM to want a POV there this far and she literally has nothing to do where she is now. Maybe she'll die heroically, maybe she'll only lose her POV, but I think saying she's a -1 POV is a safe bet. Do we really care who's gonna seat on the Seastone Chair?
On the other hand, I believe Theon will survive. He went through too much to die at the hand of Stannis, to be honest. Maybe his arc is finished (he won't get a crown, that's for sure) but I don't think he dies soon, he's broken enough for GRRM to forcing him to live.
Davos is another matter. I bet Skagos won't be his tomb, but I don't know what he's going to do afterwards. Definitely he'll head to Winterfell if the BoI is won by Stannis, but if it isn't, I don't know where he could hide out with Rickon. He could lose his POV, though, and I'm pretty sure we won't hear from him for a while, so he may be another -1 POV, after all.

Last but not least, Jon Snow and Melisandre of Asshai. One of the two will lose their POV for sure: either Meli sacrifices herself to save Jon and make him the AAR, or Jon is only revived and thus he loses his POV, as Cat before him. Hopefully, however, that POV will be nicely spent.

 

So, it appers I killed even too many POV, leaving something between 10 and 14 POVs at the end of TWOW. So, if my bet prove correct, only one between Jaime, Brienne, Cersei and Victarion dies in TWOW... I hope it's Vic or Cersei, I don't want LSH to harm those two!
Or, more likely, my bets on JonCon, Damphair and Asha weren't as safe as I thought

Thanks The Egg.   Isn't it funny how you get at a keyboard and end up killing off more POVs than you even had an idea should go?   There is something cathartic about filling up a blank page. 

If you've read through this topic you know I expect some characters to serve a purpose beyond their immediate futures in Winds.   And yes, I am well aware that it isn't the most popular idea.   That's why I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts--it helps me center some of my own ideas and narrow my list.  

You aren't much of a fan of the IB.   I take it you haven't googled the actual rules for finger dancing for your next Superbowl party?   I always enjoyed Dorne, the culture and characters are far more enjoyable than the savage IB.  It was during my reading of AWOIAF that I really began to see where these lunatics could be real players in this game.   For all its worth. 

Rereading your reasons it strikes me that you think exactly the same way I do.  X person is here and no one else can tell the story.   Which is really scary logic when it comes to Brienne and Jamie, who you are also obviously fond of.   I don't know why, but good on you.   They are so good together and I think Jamie's at his absolute best with Brienne.  

Of your Final Four I'm going with Vic.  And though I think the IB are more important than we think, I'll go with Aeron, too.   It's curious that the IB have so many  POVs and I don't think we will enjoy all those different perspectives in Winds.    Cersei is my wildcard bet--she could implode or she could wise up--it's too early to call.   Still, you've made a clear case for your picks and reasons.  If the old gods and new are good we won't have to wait a lot longer to see if any of us were even close with any of them.  

If you want a treat go a page or 2 back and read Nevets' idea about Davos in Winds.   I had a lot of fun reading your post and hope you will stop in and join us again.  

[dornishdame]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Whew, thanks Dame.   You didn't mention Aero and to be honest I think he's such a BAMF and so freaking loyal it would be a shame to lose him.   And I think Doran bears very close monitoring.   After 3 going on 4 years of this I've only tapped 3 heroes  (all women, curiously), but Areo made the list of contenders 1st read.   Love the guy.   Dark Star?   I'm not sure about that guy at all and look forward to rereading him soon.   I read a lot about what a jerk let down he is, but I thought he pulled his sword and purposely missed Myrcella. Most dangerous man in Dorne?  I thought it was because he knew of the plot then abandoned his conspirators after thwarting the attempt.   I could be way off, it's just hard for me to see any Dayne as a bad guy.  I will defer to your more discerning and critical eye when I see him again and try to hear him with more suspicion.

Like/not like isn't so much with me as who will be a hero and wield a sword as a companion.   I had the swords matched up perfectly after the 1st read and lose more and more each time after.   Asha is cool--I think she is the hope for the future if the IB are to become more than an unpleasantry outside the 7 Kingdoms.  Maybe they are destined to be sunk or absorbed or something I haven't yet thought of.   I just think they are important, as much as Dorne, and as much outside the day to day politics of the kingdom.    This needs to be rectified if there is to be unity and peace.  So yes, I expect a lot of Asha, but it could be that Theon will bring the IB into the fold.   Side note, though it's true I have this weird investment in those I expect to bear the swords I do expect to lose them all during that quest--they just have to make it that far.   We see the end differently and you wouldn't be the first to call me nuts.  

The problem with Jon having to be resurrected is the possibility that he will be changed.   There was a time when the forum was on fire with speculation that Dany "died" or went through some striking life altering change in Dance.   Maybe she did, all I have is the last chapter and I didn't see her die.   But I think she will be changed and this seems natural to me.  We've discussed possible changes in Jon and I expect this is GRRM's answer to growing up in Westeros.   They need to be smarter, tougher, meaner.   I'm almost ready for this and expect it will have to happen to Bran as well.  

Bowen was spying on Jon--nice.   He will certainly deserve whatever is coming to him in Winds. 

To start where you finished off - Bowen Marsh - he will definitely get what is coming to him in Winds, along with the rest of the men who conspired against Jon. Too late they will realize that Jon was right and they were wrong. I see the Wall being breached in some way or another at the end of Winds. I think we will get right into Daenerys and Aegon and the fight over the Iron Throne, and then boom! The Wall will be breached and we will be reminded of what the true war is. I am not sure the Wall needs to come down in its entirety....or even partially....the magics that keep the wights north of it simply need to be broken. 

You bring up an interesting point with the Iron Bank. As of the end of Dance, the Iron Bank support Stannis. I wonder if this will change come Winds. Clearly if Stannis does not survive much into Winds, they would look to change that. I cannot see them supporting Shireen; she is a child (living in a land where the throne has repeatedly gone to the male rather than female claimant) and one with the marks of greyscale to boot. We do not know if the Braavosi share Val's view on greyscale or Stannis's. The Iron Bank has survived as long as it has by funding the person most likely to pay them the money they are owed. And I do not think Shireen is their best guarantee of getting back the money they have lent to the Iron Throne. Even the Greyjoys are a better bet than Shireen. And Theon and Asha are best placed to get Tycho Nestoris on side. Plus we know it is likely that Euron has ties to Braavos already - I think he hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon, and it is not illogical to believe there are close ties between the Iron Bank and the House of Black and White.

Daenerys - I think that her time with the khalasar that picks her up at the end of Dance will be her transformative experience. She does change in Dance, it is true. But I wonder if that is in part the result of her learning to rule. And it not turning out to be as she had thought it would. Ruling is not conquering. 

Darkstar is undoubtedly dangerous - and I too find it hard to think badly of a Dayne. I'm not sure why, since we have only properly met him and Edric, but still. I also wonder exactly when this cadet branch of the Daynes was set up. Darkstar refers to Ser Arthur Dayne as cousin, but does not specify what sort of cousin he is -

Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?" (The Queenmaker in Feast)

If we compare this, for instance, to the Stark/Karstark link, Alys Karstark refers to Jon as her kinsman

"—Jon Snow." The girl tossed her braid back. "My house and yours are bound in blood and honor. Hear me, kinsman. My uncle Cregan is hard upon my trail. You must not let him take me back to Karhold."

Jon was staring. I know this girl. There was something about her eyes, the way she held herself, the way she talked. For a moment the memory eluded him. Then it came. "Alys Karstark." (Jon IX in Dance)

Interesting aside, but the Daynes seem instantly likable. Sort of like a Dornish version of the Starks. 

 

[The Egg]

I know what GRRM felt on new year's eve.... I spent an hour writing this morning, then the connection went out and I accidentally clicked on a link, deleting everything I'd been writing 

Anyway, this is what I think about your posts:

On 27/1/2016 at 3:39 AM, Nevets said:

I was planning to quote Winterwolf Stark,, but oh, well. My turn to offer suggestions as to where the story is going.

The Stark Kids - Sansa, Arya, and Bran are involved in pretty obvious coming-of-age stories.  In order for their stories to truly move forward, they need to break free of their mentors, and do things on the own, for their own reasons.

Arya - Leaves the FM. I think she is already on thin ice after the events of the preview chapter, and I suspect she will be pushed out, or choose to leave.  She will choose to reclaim her identity.  This wil be brought about by either a threat to Needle, or by a meeting with Jeyne Poole, who is likely headed to Braavos.  My belief is that Jeyne could be the catalyst that leads her to decide to become Arya Stark again.  In this case she will move to Westeros, most likely the Riverlands to join her wolf, but possibly the North.  I also think she will eventually put aside her desire for vengeance, possibly after meeting Ilyn Payne, who is on her list but shouldn't be.  Yes, I'm an optimist.

Sansa - Her job is to take down Littlefinger.  I honestly don't see her story heading to KL as a prisoner.  Been there, done that.  More likely she stays in the Vale for a time or heads to Winterfell. Her realm is the political, but more of a sense of noblesse oblige than ambition.  I don't think she will marry Aegon, as neither really offers the other anything worthwhile.

Bran - Is destined to make a decision whether or not to leave the cave.  I think he leaves.  Effectively, it's something of a dead end for him.  Getting information out is difficult, and I think he may be able to use the heart tree at Winterfell for some of his activities.

Davos - Winds up at Hardhome, and is our POV for the evacuation.  This may occur before or after he finds Rickon, but I think his story in WOW will deal with the far North.  The search for Rickon is, I think, a false trail laid by GRRM, and he will head up to the Land of Always Winter, possibly at Benjen's instigation.

Jon and the North - Jon will return to the story relatively quickly, and the Wall story will merge with that of Winterfell   I think Theon is gone by the end, and Asha will be a major POV.  Other than that, who knows.

Cersei and Arianne's stories merge, but I honestly don't see Cersei surviving through the end.  I don't know who the valonqar is, but I like Loras for it.  He has motive, considering what she did to Margaery.

Jaime / Brienne - Brienne survives.  Don't know about Jaime.  His story may be over.  In any case, this story will likely merge with either the Vale or KL.  Brienne's story is connected with the Starks, so will likely end up with one or both of the girls.

Sam will cover the Citadel and the invasion of the Ironborn.

The battle of Meereen will end with Tyrion in charge of Meereen at least for a time.  Dany collects the Dothraki and eventually moves toward Westeros. She arrives near the end of WOW.  As you can tell, I have little interest in this story

The Others begin attacking the Wall about halfway through and breach it toward the end.

POVs remaining at the end; Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Davos, Samwell,Brienne(?), Asha, Arriane.  Other POVs are either dead (Jaime, Cersei, Theon at least) or lose POV status.

That's all for now.  It is but merely speculation on my part, but I actually think some of this will happen.

On 28/1/2016 at 3:44 AM, Nevets said:

Thanks. You're the first person to even respond to my Davos prediction.  Everyone expects an in-and-out mission, and I think it's going to be far more complicated than that.

First thing to remember about ASOIAF - George doesn't believe in writing the obvious, at least so far as the casual reader is concerned.

Second thing to remember - If the majority of readers expect something to happen, it is probably the obvious choice.

Arya - If you're not an attentive reader, it seems obvious that she will remain with the FM.  I see no reason for her to do so.  Becoming adequately trained would take a huge amount of time, and it puts her at the command of someone else, which effectively dead-ends her story.  As I said before, she needs to be her own player for her story to have real resonance.

While I see a connection between Arya and Dany, I see no reason for Arya as a character to seek her out.  The FM won't send her because she is untrained and probably regarded as untrustworthy and I see no reason for Arya to have any personal interest in her.  She has connections to the Riverlands in particular, and even in the North.  She might even find it interesting that there are Northerners willing to fight, kill, and die for her.

Davos - How did I figure this out?  As Tyrion responded when asked how he knew Tywin's plans; "I looked at a map".  Skagos is on the way to Hardhome, and to get there, you have to pass Eastwatch, where ships are being pressed into service.  I have a theory that Benjen is in the far north, either spying on or negotiating with the Others, and has either gone to Hardhome, or sent someone with a message. George has said we will see the Land of Always Winter, and this makes more sense to me than trying to do it through Bran or Ghost.

Bran - Whether or not to leave the cave will be his "story of the heart in conflict with itself."  He will have to make a choice.  I think he will leave, simply because I do not think his story remaining there would be all that interesting.  By the way, I think Arya's "story of the heart in conflict" has to do with her retaining her identity, and also on whether to continue on the path of vengeance 

Sam - He will probably visit Horn Hill.  With respect to the fight against the Others, he will go where he think he can  do the most good.  His cowardice is gone, if it was ever really there.  He will remain in Oldtown if he thinks there are answers there, otherwise he will join the fight.

Wooh! Davos in the Lands of Always Winter is great!
As I said, I didn't know what to do with him, especially if Stannis's going to lose the Battle of Ice, since he can't just get to Skagos and die nor save Rickon and get him to Manderly/Stannis: there isn't a single "there and back again" journey in the 4000 pages of ASOIAF so far, there's no reason why GRRM should start now. Maybe he'll get to Skagos and save Rickon (I don't believe he's dead), but the idea of him continuing his journey north is much more intriguing (and likely to happen) than he just getting back to the North.

As for Davos's, I totally agree with you about Arya's destiny: she has nothing to do with the Faceless Man. Maybe she'll go on with her training for a few more chapters, but she'll definitely leave. And no way she's going East, she has a lot to do both in the North and in the Riverlands... here, especially, I hope for a reunion with Nymeria and UnCat, both being joyful and terrifying at once, especially the last one.

Where we disagree is about Bran: I really can't see him leaving the cave, neither now nor in the future, near or far. He's a greenseer, he can't be anything else and he didn't go that north only to go back. What could he do in Winterfell? Ruling? Not really. Unifying the North under a Stark banner? No more than Sansa... actually, much less then she, and not because he's a cripple! His place is with the Children, now.

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks The Egg.   Isn't it funny how you get at a keyboard and end up killing off more POVs than you even had an idea should go?   There is something cathartic about filling up a blank page. 

If you've read through this topic you know I expect some characters to serve a purpose beyond their immediate futures in Winds.   And yes, I am well aware that it isn't the most popular idea.   That's why I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts--it helps me center some of my own ideas and narrow my list.  

You aren't much of a fan of the IB.   I take it you haven't googled the actual rules for finger dancing for your next Superbowl party?   I always enjoyed Dorne, the culture and characters are far more enjoyable than the savage IB.  It was during my reading of AWOIAF that I really began to see where these lunatics could be real players in this game.   For all its worth. 

Rereading your reasons it strikes me that you think exactly the same way I do.  X person is here and no one else can tell the story.   Which is really scary logic when it comes to Brienne and Jamie, who you are also obviously fond of.   I don't know why, but good on you.   They are so good together and I think Jamie's at his absolute best with Brienne.  

Of your Final Four I'm going with Vic.  And though I think the IB are more important than we think, I'll go with Aeron, too.   It's curious that the IB have so many  POVs and I don't think we will enjoy all those different perspectives in Winds.    Cersei is my wildcard bet--she could implode or she could wise up--it's too early to call.   Still, you've made a clear case for your picks and reasons.  If the old gods and new are good we won't have to wait a lot longer to see if any of us were even close with any of them.  

If you want a treat go a page or 2 back and read Nevets' idea about Davos in Winds.   I had a lot of fun reading your post and hope you will stop in and join us again.  

Oh, it's the funniest thing about writing!
Once an Italian FB page asked to write how the story would end for our favorite characters, I actually ended up killing every single one in a different way and making the Red Comet crash on Westeros, to kill every human being left on Planetos... So yes, it's funny 

Anyway, as you saw, I read Nevets's idea about Davos and I love it.
I don't think we have the same attitude on the story that has to be told, though: I don't think EVERY story has to be told by a protagonist or someone around the facts. On the contrary, I believe that this was the case for AFFC and ADWD because the backgrounds of the stories had to be told and they were to complicate to be told in flashbacks (Myrcella's wounding, first of all, and every storyline that had to introduce new big characters) so he had to add new POVs to fill in the blank spaces left by the original Lannister vs. Stark theme.
But with those two books all the stories that will lead to the conclusion are now set in motion, so even the greatest changes in those storylines can now be seen through the eyes of someone outside the events, because now we know who the characters are. So, I believe in TWOW and ADOS the characters that only had to tell a story (Damphair, Areo Hotah, JonCon, Victarion, Barristan, Asha) will mostly be left behind, even if their storyline doesn't really "merge" with that of a bigger character.

11 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

You bring up an interesting point with the Iron Bank. As of the end of Dance, the Iron Bank support Stannis. I wonder if this will change come Winds. Clearly if Stannis does not survive much into Winds, they would look to change that. I cannot see them supporting Shireen; she is a child (living in a land where the throne has repeatedly gone to the male rather than female claimant) and one with the marks of greyscale to boot. We do not know if the Braavosi share Val's view on greyscale or Stannis's. The Iron Bank has survived as long as it has by funding the person most likely to pay them the money they are owed. And I do not think Shireen is their best guarantee of getting back the money they have lent to the Iron Throne. Even the Greyjoys are a better bet than Shireen. And Theon and Asha are best placed to get Tycho Nestoris on side. Plus we know it is likely that Euron has ties to Braavos already - I think he hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon, and it is not illogical to believe there are close ties between the Iron Bank and the House of Black and White.

Meh, that's an interesting point, right. But if Stannis fails, there's nobody in the North who can defeat the Lannisters. They'd either wait for Littlefinger and Sansa to make their move (but how could they know they're making it, if even Varys isn't aware of that?) or to Jon Snow if he eventually feels released from his Night's Watch vows (which I don't believe will happen) or, more likely, forget about the North and get to the South, funding Aegon instead  

[Nevets]

I have always been suspicious of the 13 POVs statement.  It's an offhand remark, commenting on the large number of POVs in Winds, and only mentions "13 at the beginning" and fewer than that at the end.  It says nothing about the middle, which probably hadn't even been written yet.  I find it impossible to go below 15 and make it intelligible, and I usually settle at 18 ( excluding Areo Hotah and JonCon).   Plus, the overall vagueness and the fact that the interview was published in French give me pause as well.

As for Bran, the problem with his staying in the cave is, what does he do there?  He can't communicate easily so seeing doesn't do much good.  What good is seeing if you can't tell anyone about it.  Weirwood trees and ravens are not an effective means of communication.  While I see him as continuing to be involved with magic, it will be in a location with other people.  Where he is is too isolated.

[Curled Finger]

That was fun The Egg, thank you. 

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 3:18 PM, The Egg said:

I know what GRRM felt on new year's eve.... I spent an hour writing this morning, then the connection went out and I accidentally clicked on a link, deleting everything I'd been writing 

Anyway, this is what I think about your posts:

Wooh! Davos in the Lands of Always Winter is great!
As I said, I didn't know what to do with him, especially if Stannis's going to lose the Battle of Ice, since he can't just get to Skagos and die nor save Rickon and get him to Manderly/Stannis: there isn't a single "there and back again" journey in the 4000 pages of ASOIAF so far, there's no reason why GRRM should start now. Maybe he'll get to Skagos and save Rickon (I don't believe he's dead), but the idea of him continuing his journey north is much more intriguing (and likely to happen) than he just getting back to the North.

As for Davos's, I totally agree with you about Arya's destiny: she has nothing to do with the Faceless Man. Maybe she'll go on with her training for a few more chapters, but she'll definitely leave. And no way she's going East, she has a lot to do both in the North and in the Riverlands... here, especially, I hope for a reunion with Nymeria and UnCat, both being joyful and terrifying at once, especially the last one.

Where we disagree is about Bran: I really can't see him leaving the cave, neither now nor in the future, near or far. He's a greenseer, he can't be anything else and he didn't go that north only to go back. What could he do in Winterfell? Ruling? Not really. Unifying the North under a Stark banner? No more than Sansa... actually, much less then she, and not because he's a cripple! His place is with the Children, now.

Oh, it's the funniest thing about writing!
Once an Italian FB page asked to write how the story would end for our favorite characters, I actually ended up killing every single one in a different way and making the Red Comet crash on Westeros, to kill every human being left on Planetos... So yes, it's funny 

Anyway, as you saw, I read Nevets's idea about Davos and I love it.
I don't think we have the same attitude on the story that has to be told, though: I don't think EVERY story has to be told by a protagonist or someone around the facts. On the contrary, I believe that this was the case for AFFC and ADWD because the backgrounds of the stories had to be told and they were to complicate to be told in flashbacks (Myrcella's wounding, first of all, and every storyline that had to introduce new big characters) so he had to add new POVs to fill in the blank spaces left by the original Lannister vs. Stark theme.
But with those two books all the stories that will lead to the conclusion are now set in motion, so even the greatest changes in those storylines can now be seen through the eyes of someone outside the events, because now we know who the characters are. So, I believe in TWOW and ADOS the characters that only had to tell a story (Damphair, Areo Hotah, JonCon, Victarion, Barristan, Asha) will mostly be left behind, even if their storyline doesn't really "merge" with that of a bigger character.

Meh, that's an interesting point, right. But if Stannis fails, there's nobody in the North who can defeat the Lannisters. They'd either wait for Littlefinger and Sansa to make their move (but how could they know they're making it, if even Varys isn't aware of that?) or to Jon Snow if he eventually feels released from his Night's Watch vows (which I don't believe will happen) or, more likely, forget about the North and get to the South, funding Aegon instead  

I see you're reading and having fun with some of our discussions.   And our friend Nevets has replied to you as well.   There really are some very cool ideas throughout this thread if you have some time to read them some day.   Check out dembones10's ideas about Sam.   And I look forward to Dornish Dame's response to your questions about the IB funding.  I'm not as quick with the quotes as Dame has amazing recall, but I wonder if Tycho didn't see and understand exactly what Jon was doing and had a back up plan to support him.  The IB is a lot better connected and informed than we are and they probably see what's coming a whole lot more clearly than we can.   And that is my "seeds in the wind" contribution tonight.  I'm not really willing to kill any of the POVs though I think the story demands it.   Like my favorite sweet sister, she's got to pay and it is shaping up to look like she will.   But she is so much fun to read so I sort of dread it.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I have always been suspicious of the 13 POVs statement.  It's an offhand remark, commenting on the large number of POVs in Winds, and only mentions "13 at the beginning" and fewer than that at the end.  It says nothing about the middle, which probably hadn't even been written yet.  I find it impossible to go below 15 and make it intelligible, and I usually settle at 18 ( excluding Areo Hotah and JonCon).   Plus, the overall vagueness and the fact that the interview was published in French give me pause as well.

As for Bran, the problem with his staying in the cave is, what does he do there?  He can't communicate easily so seeing doesn't do much good.  What good is seeing if you can't tell anyone about it.  Weirwood trees and ravens are not an effective means of communication.  While I see him as continuing to be involved with magic, it will be in a location with other people.  Where he is is too isolated.

Since NYE almost everything he says is suspect.  Dang it.  Sadly, I can narrow it down to about 9 and still get lots of blood, guts and revenge as I don't see Aegon lasting long and that's 2 POVs right there.  Once the Lannisters are out of power what do we really need to know what Doran's up to for?  3.  I do expect entire story lines to be ending.  I'm really thinking Bran and Sam may be the eyes on the world (yes I really dig that glass candles idea).   Why give us 2 characters with the ability to do so and not use it?   It's interesting to find Sam with the candles and all that knowledge that needs to get to the Wall.  However, I'm also thinking there is knowledge that needs to get to Dany as well.   This could be very cool.  Short of warging a dead body (Jojen, Jon) Brans got to get more mobile.  We were given the saddle early on.  I believe there are underground rivers in his proximity as well. Traveling leagues by boat underground to get above ground would get him around faster at any rate. I think Bran can travel for a bit longer in the basket, but eventually he's going to get too big for it.   He just needs to be able to get around is all.   Bran has reached out in a telekinetic manner to Arya--remember her dream where the tree watches her?  This is just the tip of the iceberg with Bran.  Confession time: I think he's already warged Meera and that's why she ran off so suddenly.   He's powerful.  He needs to learn how to harness all that power before he can leave but I agree with you that he's absolutely got to leave the cave in order to distribute information and gather forces...and swords!  

[dornishdame]

On 2/8/2016 at 11:18 PM, The Egg said:

Meh, that's an interesting point, right. But if Stannis fails, there's nobody in the North who can defeat the Lannisters. They'd either wait for Littlefinger and Sansa to make their move (but how could they know they're making it, if even Varys isn't aware of that?) or to Jon Snow if he eventually feels released from his Night's Watch vows (which I don't believe will happen) or, more likely, forget about the North and get to the South, funding Aegon instead  

The Iron Bank's priority is to get back the money they have put into Westeros. If Stannis dies, then I cannot see a way for them to support Shireen. What happens next - or, rather, who they support next - will depend I think on when Stannis dies. As I said in my last post, as of the end of Dance Asha and Theon are best placed to get to Tycho Nestoris and get the Westeros funding for the Greyjoys - and, as I have said, I think Euron has contacts in Braavos. That does not, however, mean that the Iron Bank will support the Greyjoys. And brings us back to the importance of when Stannis dies. 

If he dies before Aegon's landing is known, and before Littlefinger and Sansa make their move, then the Greyjoys - who are invading the Reach - may be the only option the Iron Bank sees. If Stannis dies after Aegon's landing, but before Littlefinger and Sansa make their move, then it will, I think, depend upon how the Iron Bank view Aegon. He has the support of the Golden Company, and is taking castles as he moves through the Stormlands. If they can be convinced not that he is legitimate, but that the Westerosi will accept him as legitimate, then they may support Aegon. I can see Daenerys being a problem for them more than Aegon. While she is deeply opposed to slavery and has fought off the Great Masters in Slaver's Bay, she has three dragons. And the Braavosi do not care for dragons. Why else would they have sent a Faceless Man to the Citadel, home to hidden knowledge - and the only copy of a book entitled Fire and Blood (often called The Death of Dragons)? I think more and more that the Iron Bank and The House of Black and White work very closely together. 

And then we have Littlefinger and Sansa. Hmmm. I am not sure that I see Sansa marrying Harry the Heir. I think that she will be spirited out of the Vale of Arryn before that can happen. Even if Sansa were to wed Harry and gather the Knights of the Vale, it will not happen overnight. And Sansa faces the same problem Shireen has - she is a girl in a land that has routinely passed over female heirs in favor of males. There is also the fact that - at first - Sansa will only be aiming to recapture Winterfell. Even with Littlefinger's Braavosi background, the Iron Bank may not see her as a top-tier player. But again, much and more will depend on when Stannis dies. 

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran has reached out in a telekinetic manner to Arya--remember her dream where the tree watches her?  This is just the tip of the iceberg with Bran.  Confession time: I think he's already warged Meera and that's why she ran off so suddenly.   He's powerful.  He needs to learn how to harness all that power before he can leave but I agree with you that he's absolutely got to leave the cave in order to distribute information and gather forces...and swords!  

I would love to see Sansa in close proximity to a heart tree - we know that Bran has reached out to Theon, and more importantly to Arya and to Jon. With no POV chapters for Rickon and Robb it is not possible to see if Bran has reached out to them (given that we do not see Bran reaching out to the likes of Jon and Arya in his POV chapters). The thing I love about the Jon connection is how early in the series it is:

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow. (Jon VII in Clash)

The idea of Bran warging Meera is an interesting one - her running away might indicate that she is aware of what he is doing and has tried to fight him off. It goes back again to the prologue in Dance and Varamyr Sixskins talking about the codes of behavior Haggon taught him a warg should live by. And, at the same time, reiterates that Bran is an extremely powerful warg. 

He could almost hear Haggon growling at him. "Men may eat the flesh of beasts and beasts the flesh of men, but the man who eats the flesh of man is an abomination."

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh. (Prologue in Dance)

It is also possible that Meera has some sort of realization that Jojen is not leaving the cave, and that his sole purpose was to get Bran to the cave and Bloodraven. They had such sense of purpose on the road north to the cave, and I think Meera may be realizing that she blindly followed where Jojen's greendreams led, and that they have no exit strategy; no way to get back south and no understanding of what they are supposed to do next. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, dornishdame said:

The Iron Bank's priority is to get back the money they have put into Westeros. If Stannis dies, then I cannot see a way for them to support Shireen. What happens next - or, rather, who they support next - will depend I think on when Stannis dies. As I said in my last post, as of the end of Dance Asha and Theon are best placed to get to Tycho Nestoris and get the Westeros funding for the Greyjoys - and, as I have said, I think Euron has contacts in Braavos. That does not, however, mean that the Iron Bank will support the Greyjoys. And brings us back to the importance of when Stannis dies. 

If he dies before Aegon's landing is known, and before Littlefinger and Sansa make their move, then the Greyjoys - who are invading the Reach - may be the only option the Iron Bank sees. If Stannis dies after Aegon's landing, but before Littlefinger and Sansa make their move, then it will, I think, depend upon how the Iron Bank view Aegon. He has the support of the Golden Company, and is taking castles as he moves through the Stormlands. If they can be convinced not that he is legitimate, but that the Westerosi will accept him as legitimate, then they may support Aegon. I can see Daenerys being a problem for them more than Aegon. While she is deeply opposed to slavery and has fought off the Great Masters in Slaver's Bay, she has three dragons. And the Braavosi do not care for dragons. Why else would they have sent a Faceless Man to the Citadel, home to hidden knowledge - and the only copy of a book entitled Fire and Blood (often called The Death of Dragons)? I think more and more that the Iron Bank and The House of Black and White work very closely together.  Yes indeed.  Perhaps the IB and FM are to become establishments of the past as well.   This makes me wonder about the real future of Westeros. 

And then we have Littlefinger and Sansa. Hmmm. I am not sure that I see Sansa marrying Harry the Heir. I think that she will be spirited out of the Vale of Arryn before that can happen. Even if Sansa were to wed Harry and gather the Knights of the Vale, it will not happen overnight. And Sansa faces the same problem Shireen has - she is a girl in a land that has routinely passed over female heirs in favor of males. There is also the fact that - at first - Sansa will only be aiming to recapture Winterfell. Even with Littlefinger's Braavosi background, the Iron Bank may not see her as a top-tier player. But again, much and more will depend on when Stannis dies.  Really nice, Dame. 

I would love to see Sansa in close proximity to a heart tree - we know that Bran has reached out to Theon, and more importantly to Arya and to Jon. With no POV chapters for Rickon and Robb it is not possible to see if Bran has reached out to them (given that we do not see Bran reaching out to the likes of Jon and Arya in his POV chapters). The thing I love about the Jon connection is how early in the series it is:

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow. (Jon VII in Clash)  

I will be shocked if Bran doesn't touch Sansa some way. And honestly, I can't wait to see how he manages to do it and her reaction.  For all her political education she is a daughter of Winterfell.  She is a she wolf and it may express itself differently than Lyanna or Arya, but it's there.   Let's get her out of captivity with the knowledge that her brothers and sisters live and see what happens.     

The idea of Bran warging Meera is an interesting one - her running away might indicate that she is aware of what he is doing and has tried to fight him off. It goes back again to the prologue in Dance and Varamyr Sixskins talking about the codes of behavior Haggon taught him a warg should live by. And, at the same time, reiterates that Bran is an extremely powerful warg.  It's not a popular idea at all and I thought everyone read that part about her rushing away the same.    I didn't know no one else thought this.   I actually went back and read Varamyr's prologue and found all sorts of interesting tidbits.  Varamyr had a teacher and far more experience and I think it's safe to say, far less power than our Bran.    I don't think Bran understands abomination.    He knows Hodor doesn't like him inside his head, but he still thinks it's OK to do it.    If you read the page I'm talking about it says twice I believe how strange Bran feels, like he's out of body or completely distracted by his thoughts, which are trying to comfort Meera.   I think he just sort of leaked out of himself on to her--maybe not completely in, but close enough to freak her out.   It's such and interesting piece.  

He could almost hear Haggon growling at him. "Men may eat the flesh of beasts and beasts the flesh of men, but the man who eats the flesh of man is an abomination."

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh. (Prologue in Dance)

It is also possible that Meera has some sort of realization that Jojen is not leaving the cave, and that his sole purpose was to get Bran to the cave and Bloodraven. They had such sense of purpose on the road north to the cave, and I think Meera may be realizing that she blindly followed where Jojen's greendreams led, and that they have no exit strategy; no way to get back south and no understanding of what they are supposed to do next.   This is the most common argument to my take on things.    I'm not saying it didn't happen only that more happened as Meera is clearly upset about Jojen.   Here's to Jojen having an answer dream. 

 

[dornishdame]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

The Iron Bank and The Faceless Men are both fascinating institutions - and both have links not only to Braavos, but to Old Valyria and the slaves that escaped from there. 

I will deal with the Iron Bank first, and evidence from TWOIAF:

The youngest of the Nine Free Cities, Braavos is also the wealthiest, and in all likelihood the most powerful. Originally founded by escaped slaves, its humble beginnings were rooted in nothing more than a desire to be free. For a great part of its early history, its secret status made it of little consequence in the wider world. But in time it grew, eventually emerging as a power almost without rival.

Neither prince nor king commands in Braavos, where the rule belongs to the Sealord, chosen by the city's magisters and keyholders from amongst the citizenry by a process as convoluted as it is arcane. From his vast waterside palace, the Sealord commands a fleet of warships second to none and a mercantile fleet whose purple hulls and purple sails have become a common sight throughout the known world.

The mention of the keyholders is interesting, because it links into the Iron Bank itself:

Braavos is also home to one of the most powerful banks in the world, whose roots stretch back to the beginnings of the city, when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had in an abandoned iron mine to keep them safe from thieves and pirates. As the city grew and prospered, the shafts and chambers of the mine began to fill. Rather than let their treasure sit idle in the earth, the wealthier Braavosi began to make loans to their less fortunate brethren.

Thus was born the Iron Bank of Braavos, whose renown (or infamy, to hear some tell it) now extends to every corner of the known world. Kings, princes, archons, triarchs, and merchants beyond count travel from the ends of the earth to seek loans from the heavily guarded vaults of the Iron Bank.

The Iron Bank will have its due, it is said. Those who borrow from the Braavosi and fail to repay their debts oft have cause to rue such folly, for the Bank has been known to topple lords and princes and has also been rumored to send assassins against those it cannot remove (though this has never been conclusively proved).

And later............

Archmaester Matthar's The Origins of the Iron Bank and Braavos provides one of the more detailed accounts of the bank's history and dealings, so far as they can be discovered; the bank is famous for its discretion and its secrecy. Matthar recounts that the founders of the Iron Bank numbered three-and-twenty; sixteen men and seven women, each of whom possessed a key to bank's great subterranean vaults. Their descendants, whose numbers now exceed one thousand, are known as keyholders to this day, though the keys they display proudly on formal occasions are now entirely ceremonial. Certain of the founding families of Braavos have declined over the centuries, and a few have lost their wealth entirely, yet even the meanest still cling to their keys and the honors that go with them.

The Iron Bank is not ruled by the keyholders alone, however. Some of the wealthiest and most powerful families in Braavos today are of more recent vintage, yet the heads of these houses own shares in the bank, sit on its secret councils, and have a voice in selecting the men who lead it. In Braavos, as many an outsider has observed, golden coins count for more than iron keys. The bank's envoys cross the world, oft upon the bank's own ships, and merchants, lords, and even kings treat with them almost as equals.

So, even from these few paragraphs we find that the original keyholders and their descendants are important people; they founded the Iron Bank and were partly responsible for selecting the First Sealord of Braavos - the leading political figure. And, we find that if loans are not repaid, there have been at least rumors of assassinations.  I think we can read between the lines that though this had never been conclusively proved, we have to take into consideration that this was written by a Maester - someone belonging to an organisation that denies the existence of magic, such as that used by the Faceless Men.I don't want to go into masses of detail (though I fear I will do!) but it is clear from the passages above from TWOIAF that the key organisations in Braavos may be linked. And the secrecy in the history of the early days of Braavos, before the Doom in particular, means that we can only get hints of how close these ancient organisations are. 

Then, The House of Black and White information in Feast through what Arya learns. In Arya II, when she is taken in, Arya is told a bit about the history of the Faceless Men:

"The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold's nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too."

And then, in the Cat of the Canals chapter, we learn a bit more:

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long. "The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of Valyria that was," the kindly man taught her, "but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home. We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them. Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shared in common."

"Him of Many Faces."

So, the Faceless Men predate the Iron Bank. But those slaves who escaped to establish Braavos would have known of their existence. And the Faceless Men later followed the escaped slaves. It is not difficult to make a stretch and tie the two institutions together, to make an educated guess that the assassinations ordered by the Iron Bank were carried out by another organisation whose foundation was rooted in the escape from slavery - the Faceless Men. A lot of this is me making assumptions, but we have to go on the little information we have and sift through the bias from those who pass that information on to us. 

What this means for Winds and for Dream, I cannot say. But, to go back to what I said about Daenerys, I think the Iron Bank will face a conflict there. As repeatedly stated above, Braavos was established as a place of refuge for slaves escaping from the dragonlords of Valyria; Daenerys is trying to hark back to that concept of a dragonlord with dragons (bearing in mind that the Targaryen's dragons died out more than a century before Daenerys was born). But, at the same time, the Braavosi have repeatedly fought against slavery and the city was born as a place of protection for those escaping slavery. And Daenerys has fought the Great Masters in Slaver's Bay, freeing tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) from slavery. While her decision in Dance to allow adults who wish to do so to sell themselves back into slavery may go against her, I think that the Iron Bank may have to deal with internal debates on whether or not to assist Daenerys in her claim for the Iron Throne. The positioning of a Faceless Man in Oldtown - as I stated above, along with what I think the FM is after there - suggests that they may wish to rid themselves of the dragons Daenerys has birthed. But whether that conflicts with their desire to see an anti-slavery leader in Westeros remains to be seen. 

That said, as I stated above, much and more regarding the Iron Bank's support will depend on when Stannis dies. 

As for Bran, I know the passage you are talking about. It is entirely possible that Bran - who, we must remember, is still undergoing a learning process - wargs Meera without actually meaning to. And without realizing what he has done. After all, the only human he has ever warged previously is Hodor, and Hodor is much more simple minded than Meera (and also Thistle, whom Varamyr tries to warg in the Dance prologue). Meera, I think, would have fought where Hodor did not. Bloodraven should really be educating Bran about the morality of warging in a way that Haggon did with Varamyr. The Varamyr chapter is full of little details about warging, and I know that the majority view is that the chapter is there to set up Jon warging into Ghost after the Ides of Marsh, I think that much and more (for some reason I am loving that phrase today!) from that chapter actually applies to Bran, and to his arc in Dance, and possibly Winds also. I love this section from the Varamyr chapter in Dance:

"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

Varamyr could see the weirwood's red eyes staring down at him from the white trunk. The gods are weighing me. A shiver went through him. He had done bad things, terrible things. He had stolen, killed, raped. He had gorged on human flesh and lapped the blood of dying men as it gushed red and hot from their torn throats. He had stalked foes through the woods, fallen on them as they slept, clawed their entrails from their bellies and scattered them across the muddy earth. How sweet their meat had tasted. "That was the beast, not me," he said in a hoarse whisper. "That was the gift you gave me."

For me, this links the chapter to both Bran and Jon. 

Although I say that about much of the chapter applying to Bran, I do want to see some Jon warging in Winds. Varamyr clearly felt that Jon was powerful, but untaught. As with much else, though, I think we can see an evolution in Jon and his power to warg. 

It made him feel half a fool to talk of such things to Qhorin and the other rangers, but he did as he was commanded. None of the black brothers laughed at him, however. By the time he was done, even Squire Dalbridge was no longer smiling.

"Skinchanger?" said Ebben grimly, looking at the Halfhand. Does he mean the eagle? Jon wondered. Or me? Skinchangers and wargs belonged in Old Nan's stories, not in the world he had lived in all his life. Yet here, in this strange bleak wilderness of rock and ice, it was not hard to believe.

"The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?" (Jon VII in Clash)

Varamyr Sixskins, a small mouse of a man whose steed was a savage white snow bear that stood thirteen feet tall on its hind legs. And wherever the bear and Varamyr went, three wolves and a shadowcat came following. Jon had been in his presence only once, and once had been enough; the mere sight of the man had made him bristle, even as the fur on the back of Ghost's neck had bristled at the sight of the bear and that long black-and-white 'cat. (Jon II in Storm)

Amongst the riders came one man afoot, with some big beast trotting at his heels. A boar, Jon saw. A monstrous boar. Twice the size of Ghost, the creature was covered with coarse black hair, with tusks as long as a man's arm. Jon had never seen a boar so huge or ugly. The man beside him was no beauty either; hulking, black-browed, he had a flat nose, heavy jowls dark with stubble, small black close-set eyes.

"Borroq." Tormund turned his head and spat.

"A skinchanger." It was not a question. Somehow he knew. (Jon XII in Dance)

While the quote from Clash is not only one from that book in which Jon is introduced to the idea of himself as a warg, it is the second and third quotes that I find interesting. When he meets Varamyr, there is something about him that Jon recognizes, but he is unsure what it is. When he meets Borroq, however, two books later, he knows instantly what Borroq is. And I don't believe that Borroq was a more powerful skinchanger than Varamyr (in fact, I think the opposite, particularly given the sheer number of animals Varamyr is bonded with simultaneously) - rather, I believe that Jon is more knowledgeable about himself and what he is. He finds it easier to spot in others. The trip north of the Wall taught Jon more than he realized at the time, and his wolf dreams are more prominent I think in Dance than in any other book, and that he is more comfortable with the idea of warging being something more than a scary part of Old's Nan stories. 

Jon pissed in darkness, filling his chamber pot as the Old Bear's raven muttered complaints. The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves. (Jon I in Dance)

I really want to go back and re-read when Arya starts having her wolf dreams. Like, seriously starts having them, as Jon's seem to be strong after Ygritte's death and Bran starts his after his fall. It makes me wonder if the strength of the wolf dreams is affected by a traumatic event (sort of like Jojen saying his greendreams got stronger after he had a near-death experience). But that is a side-bar. Really what I am trying to say is that I look forward to seeing a warged Jon inside Ghost in Winds, and to be able to compare that to Bran's warging. I also want to see if the three of them - Bran, Arya and Jon - can communicate through their wolves in Winds. We haven't seen these three characters together since the beginning of Thrones, and it would be heartening to see three such isolated characters (in the sense of being isolated from each other and family) come together in some way. The three of them are growing in power as we proceed through the books. And communicating through their wolves may be the only way they could come together in Winds. 

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, dornishdame said:

The Iron Bank and The Faceless Men are both fascinating institutions - and both have links not only to Braavos, but to Old Valyria and the slaves that escaped from there. 

Originally founded by escaped slaves, its humble beginnings were rooted in nothing more than a desire to be free. For a great part of its early history, its secret status made it of little consequence in the wider world. But in time it grew, eventually emerging as a power almost without rival.

The mention of the keyholders is interesting, because it links into the Iron Bank itself:

Thus was born the Iron Bank of Braavos, whose renown (or infamy, to hear some tell it) now extends to every corner of the known world. Kings, princes, archons, triarchs, and merchants beyond count travel from the ends of the earth to seek loans from the heavily guarded vaults of the Iron Bank.

The Iron Bank will have its due, it is said. Those who borrow from the Braavosi and fail to repay their debts oft have cause to rue such folly, for the Bank has been known to topple lords and princes and has also been rumored to send assassins against those it cannot remove (though this has never been conclusively proved).

So, even from these few paragraphs we find that the original keyholders and their descendants are important people; they founded the Iron Bank and were partly responsible for selecting the First Sealord of Braavos - the leading political figure. And, we find that if loans are not repaid, there have been at least rumors of assassinations.  I think we can read between the lines that though this had never been conclusively proved, we have to take into consideration that this was written by a Maester - someone belonging to an organisation that denies the existence of magic, such as that used by the Faceless Men. ...the key organisations in Braavos may be linked. And the secrecy in the history of the early days of Braavos, before the Doom in particular, means that we can only get hints of how close these ancient organisations are. 

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long. "The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of Valyria that was," the kindly man taught her, "but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home. We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them. Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shared in common."

"Him of Many Faces."

So, the Faceless Men predate the Iron Bank. But those slaves who escaped to establish Braavos would have known of their existence. And the Faceless Men later followed the escaped slaves. It is not difficult to make a stretch and tie the two institutions together, to make an educated guess that the assassinations ordered by the Iron Bank were carried out by another organisation whose foundation was rooted in the escape from slavery - the Faceless Men. A lot of this is me making assumptions, but we have to go on the little information we have and sift through the bias from those who pass that information on to us. 

What this means for Winds and for Dream, I cannot say. But, to go back to what I said about Daenerys, I think the Iron Bank will face a conflict there. As repeatedly stated above, Braavos was established as a place of refuge for slaves escaping from the dragonlords of Valyria; Daenerys is trying to hark back to that concept of a dragonlord with dragons (bearing in mind that the Targaryen's dragons died out more than a century before Daenerys was born). But, at the same time, the Braavosi have repeatedly fought against slavery and the city was born as a place of protection for those escaping slavery. And Daenerys has fought the Great Masters in Slaver's Bay, freeing tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) from slavery. While her decision in Dance to allow adults who wish to do so to sell themselves back into slavery may go against her, I think that the Iron Bank may have to deal with internal debates on whether or not to assist Daenerys in her claim for the Iron Throne. The positioning of a Faceless Man in Oldtown - as I stated above, along with what I think the FM is after there - suggests that they may wish to rid themselves of the dragons Daenerys has birthed. But whether that conflicts with their desire to see an anti-slavery leader in Westeros remains to be seen.   

Bravo Dame!   I had to go about bolding points that were glaring at me.   The recurring theme of abolition brings me to a question about our FM killing off Balon.   Aren't thralls just slaves?  The IB have kept thralls for time immemorium  so why take any part in allowing any Greyjoy to ascend to a throne, or Seastone Chair, as the case may be?  Euron seems no better and has captives galore.   Something's not right with this.   How could the assassination of Balon fit with the FM/IB anti slavery agenda?  And why did the FM come after the liberated slaves?  Why was Bravos hidden for 300 years by my count?   Were they hiding from Valyrians or what?  I can think of no other place in Westeros save the Iron Islands were any form of slavery is practiced or even accepted.   The Targs in Westeros didn't have slaves, so perhaps there may be some credit due Dany because of this.  As I recall her allowing former slaves to sell their service back was a limited contractual deal, so the arrangement was more like inservice than slavery as the "slave" was paid and guaranteed and end to service.   Just some food for thought here.    I have to say your ability to tie pertinent passages together like a song really sparks my interest in any subject you are addressing.   And you are such a rare bird to offer almost no opinion on any of it.   I have to ask Dame, do the FM and IB have a larger role than we suspect?   Are these groups as influential as say the Maesters? 

 

15 hours ago, dornishdame said:

As for Bran, I know the passage you are talking about. It is entirely possible that Bran - who, we must remember, is still undergoing a learning process - wargs Meera without actually meaning to. And without realizing what he has done. After all, the only human he has ever warged previously is Hodor, and Hodor is much more simple minded than Meera (and also Thistle, whom Varamyr tries to warg in the Dance prologue). Meera, I think, would have fought where Hodor did not. Bloodraven should really be educating Bran about the morality of warging in a way that Haggon did with Varamyr. The Varamyr chapter is full of little details about warging, and I know that the majority view is that the chapter is there to set up Jon warging into Ghost after the Ides of Marsh, I think that much and more (for some reason I am loving that phrase today!) from that chapter actually applies to Bran, and to his arc in Dance, and possibly Winds also. I love this section from the Varamyr chapter in Dance:

"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

For me, this links the chapter to both Bran and Jon. 

I really want to go back and re-read when Arya starts having her wolf dreams. Like, seriously starts having them, as Jon's seem to be strong after Ygritte's death and Bran starts his after his fall. It makes me wonder if the strength of the wolf dreams is affected by a traumatic event (sort of like Jojen saying his greendreams got stronger after he had a near-death experience). But that is a side-bar. Really what I am trying to say is that I look forward to seeing a warged Jon inside Ghost in Winds, and to be able to compare that to Bran's warging. I also want to see if the three of them - Bran, Arya and Jon - can communicate through their wolves in Winds. We haven't seen these three characters together since the beginning of Thrones, and it would be heartening to see three such isolated characters (in the sense of being isolated from each other and family) come together in some way. The three of them are growing in power as we proceed through the books. And communicating through their wolves may be the only way they could come together in Winds. 

I spent a week in Varamyr's prologue after realizing what happened with Bran in that piece.  It never occurred to me the chapter was meant to explain Jon at all and now I feel very foolish.   Of course it did.   All I can say is I was focused on Bran and reading for information about Bran's circumstances.    Back to the top, we only have the outcast Wildling Skinchanger's ideas about the morality of inhabiting another human.  I think it's safe to say BR has no clue what Bran can really do at any rate.   If BR can get inside Bran or Hodor's heads maybe he will see what's going on.   I have to agree with Haggon's approach to possession and dietary concerns.   It is nasty to think of someone inhabiting my thoughts or dining on my eyes.  Ick. Still, I wonder if Bran's particular brand of magic is unlike anything anyone has ever seen and perhaps may require him to have these experiences.  Or maybe just the learning process requires it.  

I have no doubt you're right about trauma affecting the wolf dreams and psychic strengths of the Stark kids.  I want Sansa to have power like her siblings and hope this isn't just a live wolf thing.  I lean towards the growing process for both Starks and wolves.   As they age and learn their connections strengthen and powers become apparent.   Nope, it's not looking good for Sansa, but it does seem to be working for Arya, curiously.  Maybe there is hope for Sansa.   Is it possible that the Starks proximity to magical forces will strengthen their unique abilities?   Unicorns for Rickon, The Wall for Jon, Jojen for Bran, the FM for Arya?   Let's just get Sansa to a heart tree...The whole thing was a really great read, Dame.    Thank you a thousand times for taking the time to write it all out.    

 

[dornishdame]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Bravo Dame!   I had to go about bolding points that were glaring at me.   The recurring theme of abolition brings me to a question about our FM killing off Balon.   Aren't thralls just slaves?  The IB have kept thralls for time immemorium  so why take any part in allowing any Greyjoy to ascend to a throne, or Seastone Chair, as the case may be?  Euron seems no better and has captives galore.   Something's not right with this.   How could the assassination of Balon fit with the FM/IB anti slavery agenda?  And why did the FM come after the liberated slaves?  Why was Bravos hidden for 300 years by my count?   Were they hiding from Valyrians or what?  I can think of no other place in Westeros save the Iron Islands were any form of slavery is practiced or even accepted.   The Targs in Westeros didn't have slaves, so perhaps there may be some credit due Dany because of this.  As I recall her allowing former slaves to sell their service back was a limited contractual deal, so the arrangement was more like inservice than slavery as the "slave" was paid and guaranteed and end to service.   Just some food for thought here.    I have to say your ability to tie pertinent passages together like a song really sparks my interest in any subject you are addressing.   And you are such a rare bird to offer almost no opinion on any of it.   I have to ask Dame, do the FM and IB have a larger role than we suspect?   Are these groups as influential as say the Maesters? 

You bring up an intriguing idea - one, I have to admit, that I had not considered. I had thought only of the competing claims and the links the Greyjoys already had with Braavos, In my opinion, there is a difference between thralls and slaves in that thralls serve their masters, while slaves are sold to other people to serve them. And it is in the selling that there is a slight difference. In Feast, Victarion sees this distinction too in The Reaver chapter:

As they neared the shore, he noticed a line of women and children herded up onto the deck of one of the great cogs. Some had their hands bound behind their backs, and all wore loops of hempen rope about their necks. "Who are they?" he asked the men who helped tie up their boat.

"Widows and orphans. They're to be sold as slaves."

"Sold?" There were no slaves in the Iron Islands, only thralls. A thrall was bound to service, but he was not chattel. His children were born free, so long as they were given to the Drowned God. And thralls were never bought nor sold for gold. A man paid the iron price for thralls, or else had none. "They should be thralls, or salt wives," Victarion complained.

That said, it is not our opinions regarding this distinction that matters, but those of the Iron Bank. Will they consider slaves and thralls the same thing? And we see that Euron is willing to sell his captives into slavery. Should the Iron Bank discover this, it will hinder Euron, I think, but not, perhaps, other Greyjoys seeking the Iron Throne. 

As to the role of the Iron Bank, it is arguable that they are able to wield a great deal of influence. Stannis has been fighting for the Iron Throne since he heard of Robert's death. It is only when Tycho Nestoris comes to him that he is given secure and extensive financial backing - financial backing that enables him to send an envoy to Essos to hire sellswords by the thousand.  The Iron Bank are clearly influencing Stannis's ability to win a war by providing him with essential funds to continue his war effort. And why do the Iron Bank chose this time to back Stannis? Because the Iron Throne has ceased repayment of loans. And the Iron Bank is about retrieving money it has loaned out. Their influence is, however, different I think to that of the Maesters. The Citadel has a fixed world view that they are trying to bring about; the Iron Bank is simply trying to run a business and ensure that they support the person most likely (with a few exceptions - see our discussion regarding Daenerys and slavery!) to return their money to them. So it is ideology v commence. Idealism v pragmatism (to an extent). When Sam speaks to Marwyn in Sam V in Feast, Marwyn is frank about the intentions of the Citadel:

"The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

The only part of the world that I think the Iron Bank has ever been involved in building is Braavos; a haven for those escaping from slavery. Aside from slavery, their main concern is financial. But that does not mean that they are not as powerful as the Maesters, just that they have different motives and a different way of operating. I love this quote from Tyrion II in Clash, in which he discusses the nature of power with Varys:

Varys smiled. "Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"

Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?"

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

"So power is a mummer's trick?"

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

One thing that the Maesters and the Iron Bank (or rather, the Braavosi in general) do seem to have in common is a distaste for dragons. And it will be interesting to see how that unfolds in Winds. I am looking forward to Marwyn reaching Meereen and interacting with those characters already there. And to seeing whom the Iron Bank will support when Stannis is out of the picture. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I spent a week in Varamyr's prologue after realizing what happened with Bran in that piece.  It never occurred to me the chapter was meant to explain Jon at all and now I feel very foolish.   Of course it did.   All I can say is I was focused on Bran and reading for information about Bran's circumstances.    Back to the top, we only have the outcast Wildling Skinchanger's ideas about the morality of inhabiting another human.  I think it's safe to say BR has no clue what Bran can really do at any rate.   If BR can get inside Bran or Hodor's heads maybe he will see what's going on.   I have to agree with Haggon's approach to possession and dietary concerns.   It is nasty to think of someone inhabiting my thoughts or dining on my eyes.  Ick. Still, I wonder if Bran's particular brand of magic is unlike anything anyone has ever seen and perhaps may require him to have these experiences.  Or maybe just the learning process requires it.  

I have no doubt you're right about trauma affecting the wolf dreams and psychic strengths of the Stark kids.  I want Sansa to have power like her siblings and hope this isn't just a live wolf thing.  I lean towards the growing process for both Starks and wolves.   As they age and learn their connections strengthen and powers become apparent.   Nope, it's not looking good for Sansa, but it does seem to be working for Arya, curiously.  Maybe there is hope for Sansa.   Is it possible that the Starks proximity to magical forces will strengthen their unique abilities?   Unicorns for Rickon, The Wall for Jon, Jojen for Bran, the FM for Arya?   Let's just get Sansa to a heart tree...The whole thing was a really great read, Dame.    Thank you a thousand times for taking the time to write it all out.  

It is actually refreshing to see someone else apply the contents of that Varamyr chapter to Bran. So often I read that the sole purpose of the Varamyr chapter is to give us an insight into what will happen to Jon towards the end of Dance. I don't believe that is the case. I think that the information applies to both of them. And, depending on how much her warging progresses in Winds, it may come to apply to Arya too. I don't know what Bloodraven knows about Bran's abilities - I would love to get inside Bloodraven's head, but I don't think we will ever be permitted to do so because he knows so much - but the lessons Haggon apparently taught Varamyr are ones that I think Bloodraven should be teaching Bran regardless. He should be teaching him not just about the extent of his power, but also how to control it. You are right that we only have the wildling morality there, but I think our previous encounters with the wildlings have taught us that while their morality may be different, it does not mean that it is any less than that of those living on the southern side of the wall. Take, for example, what Ygritte says when Jon asks if the man she was with before him was Longspear Ryk:

"A boy at a feast, five years past. He'd come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t' try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once."

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear's not your brother."

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." (Jon III in Storm)

When we compare this to Cersei and Jaime's relationship, to the high-born wedding cousins for dynastic reasons, and to the Targaryen family tree, then we can see that perhaps wildling morality is, in some ways, not as wild as we would have it be. I don't hate Bran for what he is doing - I don't agree with it, but I do not blame him for it. He needs someone to take him in hand and make him think about the right and wrong of what he is doing in taking over the mind (albeit temporarily) of another human being. 

As for connecting the remaining Starks - I would love that! They have been apart for too long! Arya and Sansa have not seen each other since the end of Thrones, Bran and Rickon parted at the end of Clash, and the last time Jon saw a Stark was when Benjen rode off not long after they reached the Wall. That said, Bran has reached out (we know) to Arya and Jon through the weirwood network. I say get Sansa close to a heart tree and he can reach out to her too. We know from Sansa's Feast chapters that heart trees do not grow at the Eyrie (I think because of the altitude). But I do not think she will be high up in the Vale for long. And when she escapes, I hope that she reaches a heart tree and that Bran reaches out to her. Also, Sansa is - of all Ned and Catelyn's children - the one I see as having been most influenced by the Seven. The other four (though we can only really guess with Robb and Rickon as we have had no POV chapters for them) I have always seen as more attached to the Old Gods, particularly Bran. Maybe contacting Bran through a heart tree would bring her back to her father's gods?

Regarding magic, I think that is coming back into the world more generally, and could be an influence behind the development of this generation of Starks. The direwolves helped too, I think. And although Sansa was the first to lose her wolf, when she escapes to The Fingers in Storm, she bonds well with an old, half-blind sheepdog (and is reminded of the Hound). And, as Varamyr tells us in the Dance prologue:

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. 

Maybe we will see Sansa warging a dog in Winds? I do like the idea of her developing her skills even without Lady there. More and more as we discuss their individual arcs, I can see some cross-over between these characters in Winds - whether or not that is in person. 

[Nevets]

On 2/10/2016 at 8:06 PM, Curled Finger said:

Since NYE almost everything he says is suspect.  Dang it.  Sadly, I can narrow it down to about 9 and still get lots of blood, guts and revenge as I don't see Aegon lasting long and that's 2 POVs right there.  Once the Lannisters are out of power what do we really need to know what Doran's up to for?  3.  I do expect entire story lines to be ending.  I'm really thinking Bran and Sam may be the eyes on the world (yes I really dig that glass candles idea).   Why give us 2 characters with the ability to do so and not use it?   It's interesting to find Sam with the candles and all that knowledge that needs to get to the Wall.  However, I'm also thinking there is knowledge that needs to get to Dany as well.   This could be very cool.  Short of warging a dead body (Jojen, Jon) Brans got to get more mobile.  We were given the saddle early on.  I believe there are underground rivers in his proximity as well. Traveling leagues by boat underground to get above ground would get him around faster at any rate. I think Bran can travel for a bit longer in the basket, but eventually he's going to get too big for it.   He just needs to be able to get around is all.   Bran has reached out in a telekinetic manner to Arya--remember her dream where the tree watches her?  This is just the tip of the iceberg with Bran.  Confession time: I think he's already warged Meera and that's why she ran off so suddenly.   He's powerful.  He needs to learn how to harness all that power before he can leave but I agree with you that he's absolutely got to leave the cave in order to distribute information and gather forces...and swords!  

My problem with the 13 POV comment is that it is interpreted as 13 for the entire book.  This I find impossible.   As I said above, I have a hard time getting below about 16, and prefer about 18.  I agree that there will be a lot fewer by the end of Winds.  I think the "big 6" are probably safe, and I expect either Theon or Asha to make it, but most of the rest are expendable.  I expect to lose all but Sam, Davos, Brienne, and Arianne, at least as as POVs, and possibly one or two of those.

I honestly doubt Bran has warged Meera, or anyone other than Hodor.  I think she is just upset about her brother, and the overall situation.  She is Bran's connection to the non-magical world, and if there is anything malign about BR or the CotF, I expect that she will discover it and try to protect Bran from its influence.

Dornishdame, I like your suggestion about Sansa learning to warg, but I think it is more likely to be a bird than a dog.  She has many connections to birds.   She is getting closer to Sweetrobin, whose sigil is a falcon.  Littlefinger's sigil is a mockingbird.  And Sandor regularly called her "little bird".  All this suggests to me a connection to birds.  Falcons are also closely connected to humans as they are widely used for hunting, especially by noble girls (like Sansa).  At one point, Arya remembers her mother telling her she could have a hawk one day.