Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 As to the crows as players which I've promoted for some time, I wonder if the truth of the matter might be that just as the Starks are linked to direwolves so the singers are linked to crows, which given the obvious affinity between crows and trees [as heavily underscored by the Raventree Hall business] would make sense. Its also worth noting that as we've discussed before the children of the forest were so named because they lived in "wooden cities" in the trees - like those refugees encountered by the Brotherhood - and the caves basically became their winter quarters when the leaves fell. In that context if we take there to be a bond between singers and crows, then the latter retreating with the singers into the caves might make sense and certainly makes a lot more sense than reckoning Bloodraven is controlling the lot. That would also help explain the singers sleeping in the caves, who Bran/Hodor at first takes to be dead - not greenseers attached to the weirwood but gone into the crows. Long dead? Well as has been remarked many a time in these here parts death aint what it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Lady Dianna (previous thread): Thanks, but I had already done that prior to posting. I have included numerous quotes of you suggesting a later conversation between the "Mormont woman" and Cat to prove the point that I am about to make. It is VERY IMPORTANT that the chapter ends right now before this conversation takes place. This is because Maege LEAVES at this point, and there is NO FURTHER OPPORTUNITY for conversation between her and Cat. I even checked the next TWO chapters to ensure that the conversation did not occur with Maege's daughter Dacy. (You're Welcome.) All that happens is that they both get dead. In other words, your conversation does not seem to exist in the manner in which you remember or have portrayed. I took MY time to research YOUR claim. I don't expect much, but it would be decent of you to read the entire written post and remain aware of the comments that you, yourself made before being rudely dismissive. (And inaccurate as well.) Maege Mormont was talkinh to Stannis when she talked about strong women being thruster into positions of leadership... Her words (which are really GRRM's words) were definitely foreshadowing something... They could foreshadow that Robb's chosen heir was Cat, not Jon... They could foreshadow that the Greyjoy girl will become a famous porn star... Or they could foreshadow both... --- It always cracks me up how the majority of posters here or elsewhere routinely fail to realize the complexities of GRRM novels... Yes, on the surface, it would appear that Jon was named heir - that fact alone would be a good reason to assume that Jon was not named heir... --- I don't know, maybe I'm just incredibly smart... I'm like really, really successful at everything in life that I apply myself to - though admittedly I only tend to apply myself to things that I am good at... I have donated a fair portion of the last 5 years to analyzing these books. Sadly, their is financial payoff like there is in Oil&Gas Speculating or in the Stock Market, but I have focused on these books nonetheless & I have done so for quite a long time... There is no way (yet) to judge one's successes or failures, but judging from the success in my other endeavors, I am probably getting pretty damned good at figuring this stuff out... I don't want to convince you or anyone that Cat is heir, that Jon will end up in Hodor, or even that the Red Comet will return... I'm not here to educate you, or anyone else... All I want is for you guys/girls to take note so that I can say "I TOLD YOU SO" when The Winds of Winter comes out... It's just that simple... Now if in the meantime people like my ideas & want to expand upon them, disprove them, or whatever; well, they are free to do so... NOTE: I am not as arrogant as the above message makes me sound... It is just a FACT that when I donate significant portions of my time to something, I get really good at it. I don't see why ASOIAF should be any different... You will note that as time has passed, my ideas have changed & evolved as I get better & better at interpreting & analyzing ASOIAF... I'm not still clinging to & championing the same old ideas that I started with 5 years ago like many prominent posters around here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Lady Dianna (previous thread): Maege Mormont was talkinh to Stannis when she talked about strong women being thruster into positions of leadership... Her words (which are really GRRM's words) were definitely foreshadowing something... They could foreshadow that Robb's chosen heir was Cat, not Jon... They could foreshadow that the Greyjoy girl will become a famous porn star... Or they could foreshadow both... --- It always cracks me up how the majority of posters here or elsewhere routinely fail to realize the complexities of GRRM novels... Yes, on the surface, it would appear that Jon was named heir - that fact alone would be a good reason to assume that Jon was not named heir... --- I don't know, maybe I'm just incredibly smart... I'm like really, really successful at everything in life that I apply myself to - though admittedly I only tend to apply myself to things that I am good at... I have donated a fair portion of the last 5 years to analyzing these books. Sadly, their is financial payoff like there is in Oil&Gas Prospecting or in the Stock Market, but I have focused on these books nonetheless & I have done so for quite a long time... There is no way (yet) to judge one's successes or failures, but judging from the success in my other endeavors, I am probably getting pretty damned good at figuring this stuff out... I don't want to convince you or anyone that Cat is heir, that Jon will end up in Hodor, or even that the Red Comet will return... I'm not here to educate you, or anyone else... All I want is for you guys/girls to take note so that I can say "I TOLD YOU SO" when The Winds of Winter comes out... It's just that simple... Now if in the meantime people like my ideas & want to expand upon them, disprove them, or whatever; well, they are free to do so... NOTE: I am not as arrogant as the above message makes me sound... It is just a FACT that when I donate significant portions of my time to something, I get really good at it. I don't why ASOIAF should be any different... You will note that as time has passed, my ideas have changed & evolved as I get better & better at interpreting & analyzing ASOIAF... I'm not still clinging to & championing the same old ideas that I started with 5 years ago like many prominent posters around here... That would work if Maege and Stannis had a conversation in the books, but they didn't. You might be confusing Maege with her daughter Alysane, who never joined Robb's army, but joined Stannis on the march to Winterfell. But Alysane and Stannis don't have a conversation in the books about women in power. Maybe you are referring to a conversation between Alysane and Asha or between Asha and Stannis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Yeah BR is ambigous in how he speaks so there are many interpretations.What has always struck me is the language of 'shared skin' this to me separates Bran and his siblings from someone like V6 and other skinchangers.With creatures like Ghost and the ravens of BRs cave ( like BC i believe they are players in their own right) They have the ability to share their skin,for it to be consenual.Unlike people like V6 and Haggon who have to break the wills of other creatures to forge a bond. This ofcourse means as some of us believe that we have to look closer at the Crows and the Direwolves. How does this separate Bran from Varamyr? We learn a lot about communications through warged/skinchanged animals from Varmyr's Prologue... Example: Varmyr tried to cry out through Loptail (I think his name was), but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men... We know, however, that crows can speak the tongues of men - they have the vocal capacity, they just lack the vocabulary... An above-average skinchanger like Bloodraven is probably capable of making a raven say a given word or two of his choosing, but that appears to be his limits (if we assume that he even toys with Mormont's Crow). Bran, on the other hand, who will no doubt surpass Varamyr's skill level by orders of magnitude will likely be capable of full conversations through a crow... --- Do we know that Varamyr broke the wills of his wolves? We certainly know that he broke the wills of his shadow cat & snow bear... We know that Varmyr boasted of being capable of taking the skin of any beast & bending them to his will... However, Varamyr also explains that his wolves were different, his wolves were his brothers. Did Varamyr break the will of Loptail? Varamyr's wolves seems to be very loyal to him, even when all the other animals, who's wills he did break turned... --- Do the crows have a secret crow organization that is led by the High Crow? Does this Organization have an agenda? Are they taking sides in the Game of Thrones? Unlikely, Unlikely, and Unlikely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 That would work if Maege and Stannis had a conversation in the books, but they didn't. You might be confusing Maege with her daughter Alysane, who never joined Robb's army, but joined Stannis on the march to Winterfell. But Alysane and Stannis don't have a conversation in the books about women in power. Maybe you are referring to a conversation between Alysane and Asha or between Asha and Stannis? Lyanna Mormont... I just learned how to spell Maege Mormont (I think), not ready to give it up just yet... It looks like Cat herself was actually named heir. Robb said he thought long and hard about the decision and also that it needed to be someone who knew Winterfell and the North. If he thought long and hard about it, there must have been a choice other than Jon, and the only person meeting the criteria is Cat. --- Question: Will Jon Snow ever find out that Robb made him a Stark? Answer: “Well, we don’t know that that actually happened, but you know, I hope to tie up most of the loose ends.” http://historyofwesteros.tumblr.com/post/120153203157/ariannenymeria-highlights-from-the-qa-with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Lyanna Mormont... I just learned how to spell Maege Mormont (I think), not ready to give it up just yet... Lyanna does not appear in the books, but she is mentioned a few times. She is the Mormont that answers Stannis letter with: Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king." Note that the girl uses King in the North, not Queen in the North :-) From Alysane we learn that Maege and her other two daughters are now together, but not in Bear Island. So Maege was in contact with her daughters and probably made it safely to the North. This means that at least one person who signed Robb's document is in contact with the Northern resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Robb said he thought long and hard about the decision and also that it needed to be someone who knew Winterfell and the North. If he thought long and hard about it, there must have been a choice other than Jon, and the only person meeting the criteria is Cat. Not at all. He reckoned Jon was the man for the job, but he had to think long and hard about it because of the objections raised by Catelyn. As for herself she was certainly not "meeting the criteria"; she was a Tully of Riverrun and all the way through in life we find and she admits that the North is an alien place to her that she does not and proably never will understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Lyanna does not appear in the books, but she is mentioned a few times. She is the Mormont that answers Stannis letter with: Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king." Note that the girl uses King in the North, not Queen in the North :-) From Alysane we learn that Maege and her other two daughters are now together, but not in Bear Island. So Maege was in contact with her daughters and probably made it safely to the North. This means that at least one person who signed Robb's document is in contact with the Northern resistance. It was the female Mormont Character... It might have been in the Stannis Chapter from TWOW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 That's what Bloodraven said but as Bran only visited the one we don't really know. On the whole to be honest I'd be inclined to agree with Voice that this may simply be down to GRRM not thinking through the normal lifespan of a crow. Nevertheless, although that particular exchange may not be intended to be significant, I remain convinced that there's more to the crows than meets the eye - and I'm not talking about the one in the middle. We've talked before about their possibly being players in some degree, but singers or no singers there's something strange going on with a murder of crows who choose to live or at least roost in the total darkness of the caves and can fly around in there without hitting anything. I agree that the ravens are more than regular birds and are magical, for lack of a better word. They may not have a normal lifespan...they may not ever die and could be compared to the weirwood trees in that they've been around a very long time. God-like creatures that play a role much like Odin's birds served as memory and thought, collecting information from the outside world and acting like spies. Where I live we have things that live in caves, in the dark and are black, and fly. But they aren't passerines, much less birds. They are called bats, and don't live that long. As for the crows not having actual dead CotF but memories of being skinchanged before.… makes sense, but it would be weird as BR says all of them have Singers. Not memories or were skinchanged before but inside them. He does mention all of them were ridden, I believe, but if we are going to ignore the fact there are Singers inside every bird, arbitrarily, we should very well take the ridden part as a mating ritual. The excerpt is as it follow: "A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you will remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you." "Do all birds have singers on them?" "All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven… but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but keen forget, so now they write messages in parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin." First: They talk about a long dead singer. An crow lives around 20 years, which is pretty much a long time. So I will grant it the benefit of doubt, the oldest crow lived 59 years, which is almost half of BR age, which also should take in account if these crows are unnaturally long lived. Second: It is clear they are talking about dead CotF inside the crows. I personally don't see any other explanation, unless they are talking in a really meta, grammatically savvy way to avoid it. One curiosity is that Bloodraven says All, as in all of the birds. Also granting the benefit of doubt and natural language chatting, I assume it only means the birds inside the caves. Of course there is more interpretations. For these points, it would imply either CotF can leap to second, third and so on, lives, that crows have unnatural lifespans or that there are far more CotF than we are lead to believe. Third and fourth are minor points for another discussion, I noticed while when searching for it. Third: Bloodraven talks about men using third person, logically excluding himself and Bran. That is weird and casual, because it either means Bloodraven believes Bran and himself are not men anymore or that they in fact are not. That is similar to how Bran believes men would be wroth, not that "we would be wroth", and that he is not wroth. Although it might be just semantics and grammar, but it feels really unnatural seeing them mention mankind as something apart from them. And fourth… and that one is definitively weird: notice how he mentions birds that never shared skin with men. The logical and probable motive is simply that men stopped skinchanging into birds… or it can mean birds stopped skinchanging into men. Bloodraven explains quite clearly that the woman in the bird was just a memory, "a shadow on the soul". Lady Dianna (previous thread): Maege Mormont was talkinh to Stannis when she talked about strong women being thruster into positions of leadership... Her words (which are really GRRM's words) were definitely foreshadowing something... They could foreshadow that Robb's chosen heir was Cat, not Jon... They could foreshadow that the Greyjoy girl will become a famous porn star... Or they could foreshadow both... --- It always cracks me up how the majority of posters here or elsewhere routinely fail to realize the complexities of GRRM novels... Yes, on the surface, it would appear that Jon was named heir - that fact alone would be a good reason to assume that Jon was not named heir... --- I don't know, maybe I'm just incredibly smart... I'm like really, really successful at everything in life that I apply myself to - though admittedly I only tend to apply myself to things that I am good at... I have donated a fair portion of the last 5 years to analyzing these books. Sadly, their is financial payoff like there is in Oil&Gas Prospecting or in the Stock Market, but I have focused on these books nonetheless & I have done so for quite a long time... There is no way (yet) to judge one's successes or failures, but judging from the success in my other endeavors, I am probably getting pretty damned good at figuring this stuff out... I don't want to convince you or anyone that Cat is heir, that Jon will end up in Hodor, or even that the Red Comet will return... I'm not here to educate you, or anyone else... All I want is for you guys/girls to take note so that I can say "I TOLD YOU SO" when The Winds of Winter comes out... It's just that simple... Now if in the meantime people like my ideas & want to expand upon them, disprove them, or whatever; well, they are free to do so... NOTE: I am not as arrogant as the above message makes me sound... It is just a FACT that when I donate significant portions of my time to something, I get really good at it. I don't why ASOIAF should be any different... You will note that as time has passed, my ideas have changed & evolved as I get better & better at interpreting & analyzing ASOIAF... I'm not still clinging to & championing the same old ideas that I started with 5 years ago like many prominent posters around here... We're just supposed to accept your interpretations because you are just so smart? :bs: As for providing the passages for Bran's "warging connection"....it's probably no longer necessary, but it's sure to come up again, so here is one passage where Bran was getting angry with Jojen, because Jojen was asking questions that Bran didn't want to answer. Jojen is explaining the warg connection to Bran, because Bran doesn't quite understand what is going on. He knows he is dreaming of being in Summer, but he doesn't realize that he has been actively warging. He's not denying the warging as a way of refusal, he just didn't realize it was happening and that he has an active connection where his emotions are manifested through Summer. “How would I break the chains, Jojen?” Bran asked. “Open your eye.” “They are open Can’t you see?” “Two are open.” Jojen pointed. “One, two.” “I only have two.” “You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it.” He had a slow soft way of speaking. “With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall.” Summer got to his feet. “I don’t need to see so far.” Bran made a nervous smile. “I’m tired of talking about crows. Let’s talk about wolves. Or lizard-lions. Have you ever hunted one, Meera? We don’t have them here.” Meera plucked her frog spear out of the bushes. “They live in the water. In slow streams and deep swamps—” Her brother interrupted. “Did you dream of a lizard-lion?” “No,” said Bran. “I told you, I don’t want—” “Did you dream of a wolf?” He was making Bran angry. “I don’t have to tell you my dreams. I’m the prince. I’m the Stark in Winterfell.” “Was it Summer?” “You be quiet.” “The night of the harvest feast, you dreamed you were Summer in the godswood, didn’t you?” “Stop it!” Bran shouted. Summer slid toward the weirwood, his white teeth bared. Jojen Reed took no mind. “When I touched Summer, I felt you in him. Just as you are in him now.” “You couldn’t have. I was in bed. I was sleeping.” “You were in the godswood, all in grey.” “It was only a bad dream . . .” Jojen stood. “I felt you. I felt you fall. Is that what scares you, the falling?” The falling, Bran thought, and the golden man, the queen’s brother, he scares me too, but mostly the falling. He did not say it, though. How could he? He had not been able to tell Ser Rodrik or Maester Luwin, and he could not tell the Reeds either. If he didn’t talk about it, maybe he would forget. He had never wanted to remember. It might not even be a true remembering. “Do you fall every night, Bran?” Jojen asked quietly. A low rumbling growl rose from Summer’s throat, and there was no play in it. He stalked forward, all teeth and hot eyes. Meera stepped between the wolf and her brother, spear in hand. “Keep him back, Bran.” “Jojen is making him angry.” Meera shook out her net. “It’s your anger, Bran,” her brother said. “Your fear.” “It isn’t. I’m not a wolf.” Yet he’d howled with them in the night, and tasted blood in his wolf dreams. “Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 In the unlikely event that it was Jon who was named Robb's Heir, then everyone In Stannis's Party, & Everyone in Winterfell would know about it by now - Furthermore, it surely would have spread to the wall by now too... That is just not something that people would be able to keep a secret - that the current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is the King in the North... Bannermen Loyal to the Starks would have already paraded up to the wall to inform their new king of his accent... Yet they have not... Why? Because Jon was not named Heir, the person named heir is thought to be dead by the Stark Bannermen, so there has been no reason for the information to spread... The information is null & void... --- Not at all. He reckoned Jon was the man for the job, but he had to think long and hard about it because of the objections raised by Catelyn. We can agree that Robb felt certain on one point: That he must name an heir... So Jon was NOT thinking long & hard: Should I name Jon or should I name no one at all... Logic dictates that there MUST be a 2nd Option... A 2nd Person who knows Winterfell & who knows the North... The only two people who could possibly fit this criteria (& not be exclude by being thought dead or being married to a Lannister) are Jon Snow & Cat... As for herself she was certainly not "meeting the criteria"; she was a Tully of Riverrun and all the way through in life we find and she admits that the North is an alien place to her that she does not and proably never will understand. I do not understand how Cat's inner monologue could possibly be relevant to Robb's decision on this matter... So unless we have seen Cat express these feelings to Robb, how can they weigh in on his decision making process??? Cat & Robb have shared an equal amount of time living in Winterfell amongst the Northmen... The only difference is that Cat was Fully Mature during this 15-16 year period, Robb was a child... Cat knows Winterfell & knows the North quite a bit better than Robb does himself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 We're just supposed to accept your interpretations because you are just so smart? :bs: No, you are not supposed to accept my interpretations just because I propose them... We enjoy reading your thoughts & interpretations too, you bring a lot to this board... What is total BS is when people like you do not read the post that they are replying to... Let me attach the 2nd to last paragraph for you: I don't want to convince you or anyone that Cat is heir, that Jon will end up in Hodor, or even that the Red Comet will return... I'm not here to educate you, or anyone else... All I want is for you guys/girls to take note so that I can say "I TOLD YOU SO" when The Winds of Winter comes out... It's just that simple... Now if in the meantime people like my ideas & want to expand upon them, disprove them, or whatever; well, they are free to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 It was the female Mormont Character... It might have been in the Stannis Chapter from TWOW... Alysanne Mormont is mentioned (Stannis ordered Massey to take her as a companion to fArya to the Wall), but does not appear in the Theon sample chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 As for providing the passages for Bran's "warging connection"....it's probably no longer necessary, but it's sure to come up again, so here is one passage where Bran was getting angry with Jojen, because Jojen was asking questions that Bran didn't want to answer. Jojen is explaining the warg connection to Bran, because Bran doesn't quite understand what is going on. He knows he is dreaming of being in Summer, but he doesn't realize that he has been actively warging. He's not denying the warging as a way of refusal, he just didn't realize it was happening and that he has an active connection where his emotions are manifested through Summer. “How would I break the chains, Jojen?” Bran asked. “Open your eye.” “They are open Can’t you see?” “Two are open.” Jojen pointed. “One, two.” “I only have two.” “You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it.” He had a slow soft way of speaking. “With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall.” Summer got to his feet. “I don’t need to see so far.” Bran made a nervous smile. “I’m tired of talking about crows. Let’s talk about wolves. Or lizard-lions. Have you ever hunted one, Meera? We don’t have them here.” Meera plucked her frog spear out of the bushes. “They live in the water. In slow streams and deep swamps—” Her brother interrupted. “Did you dream of a lizard-lion?” “No,” said Bran. “I told you, I don’t want—” “Did you dream of a wolf?” He was making Bran angry. “I don’t have to tell you my dreams. I’m the prince. I’m the Stark in Winterfell.” “Was it Summer?” “You be quiet.” “The night of the harvest feast, you dreamed you were Summer in the godswood, didn’t you?” “Stop it!” Bran shouted. Summer slid toward the weirwood, his white teeth bared. Jojen Reed took no mind. “When I touched Summer, I felt you in him. Just as you are in him now.” “You couldn’t have. I was in bed. I was sleeping.” “You were in the godswood, all in grey.” “It was only a bad dream . . .” Jojen stood. “I felt you. I felt you fall. Is that what scares you, the falling?” The falling, Bran thought, and the golden man, the queen’s brother, he scares me too, but mostly the falling. He did not say it, though. How could he? He had not been able to tell Ser Rodrik or Maester Luwin, and he could not tell the Reeds either. If he didn’t talk about it, maybe he would forget. He had never wanted to remember. It might not even be a true remembering. “Do you fall every night, Bran?” Jojen asked quietly. A low rumbling growl rose from Summer’s throat, and there was no play in it. He stalked forward, all teeth and hot eyes. Meera stepped between the wolf and her brother, spear in hand. “Keep him back, Bran.” “Jojen is making him angry.” Meera shook out her net. “It’s your anger, Bran,” her brother said. “Your fear.” “It isn’t. I’m not a wolf.” Yet he’d howled with them in the night, and tasted blood in his wolf dreams. “Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran.” How is Bran's experience that you have posted above any different from Varamyr's experience with Loptail? You may not be a proponent of the Theory that Varamyr is not a Warg but a mere Skinchanger, but some of the people around here are (not that there is anything wrong with that). In short, I believe that the two experiences can be summarized like this: Bran gets angry... Summer starts growling... Varamyr is jealous... Loptail & his friends kill Varamyr's brother... It sounds to me like Varamyr's first Warging experience is almost identical to Bran's first Warging experience... Which, in my opinion, would make them both Wargs... To me, this is really not open for discussion since the very definition of a Warg is someone who skinchanges with dogs, wolves, or direwolves... Just because Varamyr is not as nice as Bran does not mean that their powers are any different... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Alysanne Mormont is mentioned (Stannis ordered Massey to take her as a companion to fArya to the Wall), but does not appear in the Theon sample chapter. Well, not having any books, I have no way to help find the quote that I was originally referring to... I listen to the books & to be quite honest, I cannot even tell you which book it might be in - though I know it is not in AGOTs... --- I suggest that we forget about the quote regarding "strong women thrust into leadership positions" & just pretend as if it never existed... & perhaps it never did... I think that the Theory of Cat being named Robb's Heir has enough merit to stand without this allusive quote... --- With all of Robb's bannermen who were present having signed the document, there is simply no way in Hell that someone has not already come to get Jon & use him as a rallying tool if he were truly named heir... That is pretty sound reasoning in my opinion, though 'Feather Crystal' will likely want to reach that conclusion on her own. Couple that reasoning with this Q/A with GRRM: Question: Will Jon Snow ever find out that Robb made him a Stark? Answer: “Well, we don’t know that that actually happened, but you know, I hope to tie up most of the loose ends.” It just really looks more & more like Cat was named Heir... NOTE: I will concede that GRRM can often be tricky in his Q/A & SSM Sessions; however, I do not get the feeling that he is hiding anything here or trying to be tricky in the least... I think he is genuinely advising the questioner that the events that he is asking about never took place... Besides, Jon has enough twists & turns in store for him already... I think that this bit of intrigue has been reserved for Cat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I wish I could remember how to spell Catlynn, I hate using the word Cat for a person's name... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I agree with Wolfmaid7's comment from the previous thread where she suggest that the "Strange Sorceries" mentioned in the Night's King tales are in fact nothing more than advanced Warging/Skinchanging abilities... In this case, both the skinchangee & the skinchanger were humans... I believe that the Night's King collected hundreds of human skins & I believe that Jon Snow will fulfill that roll this time around & he will amass a huge army, primarily of wildings, and bind them to his will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Wolfmaid7 (from Previous Thread): 1.He said he was and that his mind was made up about it. 2.Cat believed his mind was made up about it. 3.Your assertion that he would name Cat though she "just released the Kingslayer" makes no sense 4.There's no progresion of the plot with regards to WF if Cat was named. 6.I'm not saying that he did name Jon only that the clues hint toward Jon or Arya 7. You have failed miserably to present any logic or clues as to why he named Cat except your "feeling" 8.I don't throw my hat behind emotion,i throw my hat behind something tangible of which you have none in this case.I'm sorry dude that's the way the cookie crumbles. 1.He said he was and that his mind was made up about it. That's a good way to get caught in one of GRRM's traps... 2.Cat believed his mind was made up about it. That's a good way to get caught in one of GRRM's traps... 3.Your assertion that he would name Cat though she "just released the Kingslayer" makes no sense Fair point, but he waited a while before making the decision & Cat was only person to meet Robb's Criteria... 4.There's no progresion of the plot with regards to WF if Cat was named. That is for GRRM to decide, not us... 6.I'm not saying that he did name Jon only that the clues hint toward Jon or Arya Hmmm, now that I have never considered... didn't he think Arya was dead though? 7. You have failed miserably to present any logic or clues as to why he named Cat except your "feeling" I fixed that, please read up-thread [Page 2], especially where I disprove TBC's thoughts... 8.I don't throw my hat behind emotion,i throw my hat behind something tangible of which you have none in this case.I'm sorry dude that's the way the cookie crumbles. Word, Straight up gangsters like the 2 of us, we keeps it real at all cost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 I wish I could remember how to spell Catlynn, I hate using the word Cat for a person's name... With that at least I do agree and prefer to say C-a-t-e-l-y-n rather than Cat and Lord Eddard rather than Ned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Cat & Robb have shared an equal amount of time living in Winterfell amongst the Northmen... The only difference is that Cat was Fully Mature during this 15-16 year period, Robb was a child... Cat knows Winterfell & knows the North quite a bit better than Robb does himself... They have but the difference is that Robb and to a slightly lesser extent Jon and Bran were brought up to rule in the North. Catelyn was not and we're several times told how she's a southerner who still doesn't understand the place. the fact is that no matter how far down the list of Mormont women [and children] you might reach, there is no textual evidence at all that Robb decided to make his mother his heir. She is already Lord Eddard's widow and if she chose to rally the North on that basis needs no other authority. Robb was discussing legitimising Jon that he and his might in time inherit, precisely because there was no-one else Catelyn could pass it to when she popped her clogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 I also have to say by way of a general observation that when it comes to theories about what might happen at a future date. "Foreshadowing" is probably much overused and hardly justified by what has come to pass so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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