Heresy 178

[Melifeather]

 
Yeah, having had a lot of time to think this through since I first raised the possibility of the crows being something special, I'm more inclined to see them not as a discrete faction - or players if you like - but rather see them as allies of the Old Gods, and as I suggested above may have a similar relationship to the singers as wolves do to wargs. They may not be equals but are certainly the favoured partners. 
 
Essentially I'm thinking in global terms of the singers and the other old races, all interdependent upon one another and each contributing in their own way - and in that context of course Craster's sons and the wights shambling in their wake being tools rather than a third party. 
 
So far as "sympathetic" humans are concerned, yes, there we go all the way back to the wildling women lying with the Others to create those "terrible half-human children" for how else is the skinchanging ability introduced to human blood? And yes this, surely, is where the Starks and "their" wolves come in. 

Regarding where humans obtained the ability to skinchange...perhaps the Others are credited, but as a way to disparage skinchangers? Certainly the gene came from somewhere, but it's difficult for me to imagine White Walkers having the ability to reproduce if they are shadows drawn from something living, like if they are indeed drawn from Crasters sons.

[Phillip Frye]

"Leagues away, in a one-room hut of mud and straw with a thatched roof and a smoke hole and a floor of hard-packed earth, Varamyr shivered and coughed and licked his lips. His eyes were red, his lips cracked, his throat dry and parched, but the taste of blood and fat filled his mouth, even as his swollen belly cried for nourishment.  A child’s flesh, he thought, remembering Bump.  Human meat.  Had he sunk so low as to hunger after human meat?  He could almost hear Haggon growling at him.  “Men may eat the flesh of beasts and beasts the flesh of men, but the man who eats the flesh of man is an abomination.”

 

It is much easier to understand what his happening in the "wolf dreams" when you realize that they are not dreams at all.  I agree that Varamyr Sixskins was not having wolf dreams when he was passing in an out of consciousness in the hut.  Instead, he was warging his wolves while asleep.

[Phillip Frye]

Considering that Martin's other, science fiction works rely greatly upon the others placing false dreams into the minds of humans (which is likely happening in other parts of ASOIAF as well), it is an inversion of this trope of Martin's to have the "dreamers" in this context actually warging their companions.

[wolfmaid7]

 

It is much easier to understand what his happening in the "wolf dreams" when you realize that they are not dreams at all.  I agree that Varamyr Sixskins was not having wolf dreams when he was passing in an out of consciousness in the hut.  Instead, he was warging his wolves while asleep.

Agree with your argreement,but disagree that he was even Warging them while asleep.The dude was awake eyes red,licking his lips while giving himself a mental booth licking about the bad things he's done in life...along with his life story which flashed before his eyes.

[Black Crow]

Regarding where humans obtained the ability to skinchange...perhaps the Others are credited, but as a way to disparage skinchangers? Certainly the gene came from somewhere, but it's difficult for me to imagine White Walkers having the ability to reproduce if they are shadows drawn from something living, like if they are indeed drawn from Crasters sons.

 

True but this is exactly why I've argued for a long time that the term Others is plural not singular and isn't confined to the white walkers; rather that they too may be a product rather than a begetter of the magic.

[Black Crow]

 

It is much easier to understand what his happening in the "wolf dreams" when you realize that they are not dreams at all.  I agree that Varamyr Sixskins was not having wolf dreams when he was passing in an out of consciousness in the hut.  Instead, he was warging his wolves while asleep.

 

We see exactly the same thing of course with Bran, and with the warning by the Bobsey Twins that feeding as a wolf won't fill his human belly no matter how satisfying it feels.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Agree with your argreement,but disagree that he was even Warging them while asleep.The dude was awake eyes red,licking his lips while giving himself a mental booth licking about the bad things he's done in life...along with his life story which flashed before his eyes.

Well done my lady... WELL DONE

 

:bowdown:(essay)

 

The Beltane angle was mind-blowing, great research...

[Melifeather]

 

It is much easier to understand what his happening in the "wolf dreams" when you realize that they are not dreams at all.  I agree that Varamyr Sixskins was not having wolf dreams when he was passing in an out of consciousness in the hut.  Instead, he was warging his wolves while asleep.

 

I agree with this. I too have understood that "wolf dreams" are not dreams per se, but rather an unconscious or passive warging while sleeping. Varamyr was sleeping then awoke, shivered, coughed then licked his lips remembering the "dream", but Varamyr understood that it wasn't a dream and that he was inside his wolf while asleep.

 

 

 

True but this is exactly why I've argued for a long time that the term Others is plural not singular and isn't confined to the white walkers; rather that they too may be a product rather than a begetter of the magic.

 

 

Yes, and I agree with your assessment of the Others, and that the term must include whomever is creating the White Walkers, as well as all the other "undesirables".

[Black Crow]

Yes, and I agree with your assessment of the Others, and that the term must include whomever is creating the White Walkers, as well as all the other "undesirables".

 

How "undesirable" pretty much depends on the viewpoint and some would see them as all the hosts of hell, but I'd be inclined to see men such as the Starks being or having been in alliance with them. Old allegiances once forgotten may be remembered - but it may equally well see the reasons why they were broken or forgotten in the first place, and why Roose Bolton burned that book.

[Melifeather]

Yes, that book Roose Bolton burned is certainly mysterious. We really don't have a lot of clues other than it may have been found at Harrenhal. Not saying that Roose is a man that doesn't travel with books, but you wouldn't bring a book with you raping and pillaging just to burn.

 

Harrenhal was built on the shore of God's Eye in close proximation to the famous green men of the Isle of Faces. Houses/people that have resided/stayed there include: Harren the Black, later the Whents (Shella Whent was dispossessed by Lord Tywin and she died in exile). Petyr Baelish was given the castle but never lived in it, next came Lord Bolton, but departed after a short stay giving it to Vargo Hoat.  Gregor Clegane took it from Hoat, and lastly Jaime Lannister was there for a short stay leaving Bonifer Hasty as castellan.

 

Looking at the list above, who most likely left the book that Roose found? Did Shella Whent know what she had? Was it a mouldy old book that nobody noticed until Roose read and burned it?

 

Does the location of the book indicate it's importance? Anybody have any speculations?

[Black Crow]

Given the timeline those who came after Roose Bolton obviously didn't leave it for him to read, and I don't recall the arrival of a messenger with a mysterious package while he was there. That would suggest he found it in the library left there since the Whents' time.

 

I'm not sure though about the location itself being significant as any books coming there would have done so after Harren the Black and his sons were immolated.

 

Nevertheless the impression we're given is that Roose found something interesting and burned the book because he didn't want anybody else to know what he had found.

[Melifeather]

We can only speculate the contents of the book, but whatever it was, Roose deemed it dangerous enough to burn. Most of the books we hear about are histories, and I'm thinking that it might be logical to conclude that it was a historical record. What historical record would Roose want to keep hidden? In order to answer that question we have determine what Roose wants. He's the Warden of the North. He has Winterfell. He has an heir to the Dreadfort. He has a pregnant wife. What else does he want? Does he aspire to the Iron Throne? If he is able to exterminate the Lannisters, whoops, I mean Baratheons, who would be left to stand in his way?

 

I don't recall if Heresy has attempted to draw any clues from the War of the Roses? 

 

According to the letter to Ralph at the beginning of your thread, GRRM says that this is ultimately a story about the enmity between House Lannister and House Stark. In the War of the Roses we have Lancaster (red rose) and York (white rose), both are cadet branches of the same royal House Plantagenet which originated in France. Is it possible that the Lannisters (gold and crimson) and Starks (grey and white) are cadet branches of a much older royal House as well? Or maybe the Targaryens are meant to be the stand in for the Plantagenets, and Valyria is France?

 

Hersey has theorized the possible origins of House Stark before and how they secured Winterfell, but has anyone proposed that they were once a cadet branch too?

[Black Crow]

Considering that Martin's other, science fiction works rely greatly upon the others placing false dreams into the minds of humans (which is likely happening in other parts of ASOIAF as well), it is an inversion of this trope of Martin's to have the "dreamers" in this context actually warging their companions.

 

I'd say that in the case of warging its mutual and the difference between warging and skinchanging is that either party can initiate the exchange; compare and contrast Bran's differing experiences with Summer and Hodor. At a very basic level he has wolf dreams but he doesn't have Hodor dreams.

[Black Crow]

We can only speculate the contents of the book, but whatever it was, Roose deemed it dangerous enough to burn. Most of the books we hear about are histories, and I'm thinking that it might be logical to conclude that it was a historical record. What historical record would Roose want to keep hidden? In order to answer that question we have determine what Roose wants. He's the Warden of the North. He has Winterfell. He has an heir to the Dreadfort. He has a pregnant wife. What else does he want? Does he aspire to the Iron Throne? If he is able to exterminate the Lannisters, whoops, I mean Baratheons, who would be left to stand in his way?

 

I don't recall if Heresy has attempted to draw any clues from the War of the Roses? 

 

According to the letter to Ralph at the beginning of your thread, GRRM says that this is ultimately a story about the enmity between House Lannister and House Stark. In the War of the Roses we have Lancaster (red rose) and York (white rose), both are cadet branches of the same royal House Plantagenet which originated in France. Is it possible that the Lannisters (gold and crimson) and Starks (grey and white) are cadet branches of a much older royal House as well? Or maybe the Targaryens are meant to be the stand in for the Plantagenets, and Valyria is France?

 

Hersey has theorized the possible origins of House Stark before and how they secured Winterfell, but has anyone proposed that they were once a cadet branch too?

 

We're undoubtedly looking at a feud and one which will eventually be ended over Cersei's dead body, but while GRRM has been quite open about the Wars of the Roses influence he doesn't tend to follow any of his inspirations slavishly. 

 

In this case I don't think that we're necessarily looking at the two families being related rivals, but there may be a link in their sigils if we look at the Lannisters really being a First Man family into which an Andal married and took over. While the reference comes very late in the story there may be some significance in Leaf's statement that the great lions of the west, once accounted among the old races are dead. If the Lannisters were once linked to those lions as the Starks are to their wolves, then the healing of the land may in part require the Lannisters' acknowledgement of that past. I've not, to be honest, any idea how this might work but I think it a more likely link between wolf and lion than finding that they are cousins many times removed.

[Melifeather]

 
I'd say that in the case of warging its mutual and the difference between warging and skinchanging is that either party can initiate the exchange; compare and contrast Bran's differing experiences with Summer and Hodor. At a very basic level he has wolf dreams but he doesn't have Hodor dreams.

It's interesting how we understand a single issue in two different ways. You see the wolf dreams as evidence that the wolves are initiating the exchange, and I interpret it as passive warging.

[Black Crow]

Evening all.

As the migration to the new version has happened and as advertised we've lost lots of stuff I intend to close this one down and open with Heresy 180. See you over there.