Tucu Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Well, not having any books, I have no way to help find the quote that I was originally referring to... I listen to the books & to be quite honest, I cannot even tell you which book it might be in - though I know it is not in AGOTs... --- I suggest that we forget about the quote regarding "strong women thrust into leadership positions" & just pretend as if it never existed... & perhaps it never did... I think that the Theory of Cat being named Robb's Heir has enough merit to stand without this allusive quote... --- With all of Robb's bannermen who were present having signed the document, there is simply no way in Hell that someone has not already come to get Jon & use him as a rallying tool if he were truly named heir... That is pretty sound reasoning in my opinion, though 'Feather Crystal' will likely want to reach that conclusion on her own. Couple that reasoning with this Q/A with GRRM: It just really looks more & more like Cat was named Heir... NOTE: I will concede that GRRM can often be tricky in his Q/A & SSM Sessions; however, I do not get the feeling that he is hiding anything here or trying to be tricky in the least... I think he is genuinely advising the questioner that the events that he is asking about never took place... Besides, Jon has enough twists & turns in store for him already... I think that this bit of intrigue has been reserved for Cat... Part of me wants to see a small Dance of Wolves (by proxy). If the document legitimized Jon and the Boltons are defeated, we will have 3 claimants to the throne with armies to support them: -Rickon with the Manderlys and Skagosi as Robb's heir if only the male line is followed and Bran is still entangled. -Sansa and Harry the Heir with the forces of the Vale (if Littlefinger gets them married and Robyn Arryn suffers an accident) -(coma)Jon with support from the Reeds, Glover, Mormont and the free folk. And LSH might make an appearance to make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 How does this separate Bran from Varamyr? We learn a lot about communications through warged/skinchanged animals from Varmyr's Prologue... Example: Varmyr tried to cry out through Loptail (I think his name was), but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men... We know, however, that crows can speak the tongues of men - they have the vocal capacity, they just lack the vocabulary... An above-average skinchanger like Bloodraven is probably capable of making a raven say a given word or two of his choosing, but that appears to be his limits (if we assume that he even toys with Mormont's Crow). Bran, on the other hand, who will no doubt surpass Varamyr's skill level by orders of magnitude will likely be capable of full conversations through a crow... --- Do we know that Varamyr broke the wills of his wolves? We certainly know that he broke the wills of his shadow cat & snow bear... We know that Varmyr boasted of being capable of taking the skin of any beast & bending them to his will... However, Varamyr also explains that his wolves were different, his wolves were his brothers. Did Varamyr break the will of Loptail? Varamyr's wolves seems to be very loyal to him, even when all the other animals, who's wills he did break turned... --- Do the crows have a secret crow organization that is led by the High Crow? Does this Organization have an agenda? Are they taking sides in the Game of Thrones? Unlikely, Unlikely, and Unlikely... "Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog’s skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. “Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.” "Varamyr could take any beast he wanted, bend them to his will, make their flesh his own. Dog or wolf, bear or badger." Nuff said.....ATS practice admitting when you are wrong as time goes by it will get easier.Its clear to see the difference.......Skinchangers are skilled at TAKING ANIMALS be they easy to bond with or hard. THE BOND IS INITIATED BE THE SKINCHANGER they are dominant.You see it in the act and you hear it in the language that the regular Skinchangers use.Haggon,v6. Switch and listen to BR talk,listen to how summer spoke in Bran .....Crows who "SHARE" their skin with men... Summer thinking when Bran was in him " The boy who SHARES his skin" V6 doesn't nor any other shares skin,they TAKE IT. Bran did the same with Hodor,who did not chose to share his skin...after a while it got easy to wear him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 In addition one of the things we've discussed before is the way that the bond between Direwolf and Warg appears to be initiated or at least offered by the Direwolf. While Varamyr began to develop his skin-changing at an early age, there was no hint at all that the children of Winterfell had any powers in that direction until the Direwolf pups tooled up; and there are occasions when Jon appears to be taken over by Ghost unbidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 In addition one of the things we've discussed before is the way that the bond between Direwolf and Warg appears to be initiated or at least offered by the Direwolf. While Varamyr began to develop his skin-changing at an early age, there was no hint at all that the children of Winterfell had any powers in that direction until the Direwolf pups tooled up; and there are occasions when Jon appears to be taken over by Ghost unbidden. Exactly,there is nothing extraordinary about wolves, or cats or dogs.Their familiarity with humans or not is what makes them "accept a collar" easy or kicking but they STILL accept it. Again its important to note the language "accept collars". Its not the same with the Direwolves or the Crows in BR's cave Bran failed like twice because he tried to its until he looked the third in its eye, and it sqworked its approval was he able to enter it.Because it chose to share its skin with Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Its not the same with the Direwolves or the Crows in BR's cave Bran failed like twice because he tried to its until he looked the third in its eye, and it sqworked its approval was he able to enter it.Because it chose to share its skin with Bran. I'd forgotten that one and once again it emphasises that the crows are different Notwithstanding Mormont's bird, I wonder if there's also a difference between the crows and the ravens with the latter being domesticated by men and no longer serving as hosts [ie; can no longer "speak"] while the wild crows still bond with the singers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I was involved in an interesting conversation with SlyWren, Voice and some others regarding the initiation of the Stark kids warg bond. I'm on my phone and can't pull the quotes right now, but when you read about the execution of Gared in three separate POV back to back, I think Bran's, Catelyn's and Jon's, I noted that it starts to make you wonder if Ned in fact was trying to get around executing Gared and trying to get him to return to the wall. SlyWren went on to speculate that When Ned is forced to execute Gared after this, he is making a sacrifice of both his honor and the safety of his family (Benjen at the wall now with one less brother.) It was then speculated that this sacrifice quite possibly may have been the sacrifice required to open the eyes of the Stark children to the warg bond. Voice pointed out that with Bran feeling colder on the way home despite increased sun and decreased wind, this might actually demonstrate that Bran is already sensing Summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 How is Bran's experience that you have posted above any different from Varamyr's experience with Loptail? You may not be a proponent of the Theory that Varamyr is not a Warg but a mere Skinchanger, but some of the people around here are (not that there is anything wrong with that). In short, I believe that the two experiences can be summarized like this: Bran gets angry... Summer starts growling... Varamyr is jealous... Loptail & his friends kill Varamyr's brother... It sounds to me like Varamyr's first Warging experience is almost identical to Bran's first Warging experience... Which, in my opinion, would make them both Wargs... To me, this is really not open for discussion since the very definition of a Warg is someone who skinchanges with dogs, wolves, or direwolves... Just because Varamyr is not as nice as Bran does not mean that their powers are any different... This particular part of my post was actually not directed at you. It was for a poster from the previous thread who's name I should have taken the time to write down. :blushing: Anyhow...I actually disagree with Wolfmaid and Black Crow regarding Varamyr and confidently state that he was a warg as the prologue chapter states several times over. A warg is simply a skinchanger that can skinchange into wolves. I don't think wargs are better than anyone that is referred to as a skinchanger, it's just more of a descriptive term than status. It would be akin to observing a group of men and saying one of them was white while the rest were all black. They're all just men, just that one is a different race. Back to the passage quoted...the previous poster was trying to build a case that Bran was a warg against his will and that he tried to refuse becoming one...at least that is how I took it...maybe I should go back and reread because the point I was trying to make seems like a distant memory now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 This particular part of my post was actually not directed at you. It was for a poster from the previous thread who's name I should have taken the time to write down. :blushing: Anyhow...I actually disagree with Wolfmaid and Black Crow regarding Varamyr and confidently state that he was a warg as the prologue chapter states several times over. A warg is simply a skinchanger that can skinchange into wolves. I don't think wargs are better than anyone that is referred to as a skinchanger, it's just more of a descriptive term than status. It would be akin to observing a group of men and saying one of them was white while the rest were all black. They're all just men, just that one is a different race. Back to the passage quoted...the previous poster was trying to build a case that Bran was a warg against his will and that he tried to refuse becoming one...at least that is how I took it...maybe I should go back and reread because the point I was trying to make seems like a distant memory now.I still disagree with the whole V6 being a Warg.No con has been able to trump GRRM's statement on that. The is a warg or not wasn't the point of the arguement and still isnt.The point is "No regular animal"has shown the capacity to share their skin.Every single one of v6 animals he took, he broke their will and took their skin by force. Like all the skinchangers outside the Stark kids and Dany. The animals can have their will broken which is easy or hard depending on the animal. Only the Crows in the cave and the Direwolves can and have shared.it also has nothing to do with who is better Warg or Skinchanger they are the same what makes them different is their partners. So again its less about the person and more about the creatures. This is the important bit the creatures that have aligned themselves with these individuals aren't normal. ..They have agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I still disagree with the whole V6 being a Warg con has been able to trump GRRM's statement on that. The is a warg wasn't the point of the arguement and still isnt.The point is "No regular animal"has shown the capacity to share their skin.Every single one of v6 animals he took, he broke their will and took their skin by force. Like all the skinchangers outside the Stark kids and Dany. The animals can have their will broken which is easy or hard depending on the animal. Only the Crows in the cave and the Direwolves can and have shared. So again its less about the person and more about the creatures. This is the important bit the creatures that have aligned themselves with these individuals aren't normal. ..They have agency. I can't believe I am about to use this comparison, but V6's approach to skinchanging/warging is like rape. Rape is violation that's mainly about asserting control, but it is also a sexual act. Penetration occurs whether the other person wants it or not. V6 is forcing a connection whether the animal wants to or not, but he's still a warg as well as a skinchanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I can't believe I am about to use this comparison, but V6's approach to skinchanging/warging is like rape. Rape is violation that's mainly about asserting control, but it is also a sexual act. Penetration occurs whether the other person wants it or not. V6 is forcing a connection whether the animal wants to or not, but he's still a warg as well as a skinchanger. V6's approach to skinchanging is no different than Haggon's,or Borreqs,or Griselda or Orell's.They all do the same and have done the same thing.They "take" skins, the animals do not share their skins with them.Where V6's differs from the others or where he strayed is that he uses his animals for horrible means.To prove he's not afraid to push the envelope he takes skins Haggon said shouldn't be taken.He was a rebel,but the crux of what they do he has abided by which is they are the ones every last one of them forces the bond This was Haggon's lesson in telling him what animals were best,worse,easy,hard .....FOR THEM TO TAKE. The Stark kids are different,Dany is different..They never forced any bond,they never new what they were.It was the direwolves that reached out to them. Danm i couldn't find it...I have to look through the past Heresies for it.I did find this in the concordance of Westeros.org though...i'll keep looking or better yet give me the end of next week to put this to rest one way or the other.Not that it matters to the uniqueness of the relationships between Starks and their Direwolves. Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2). I'll now ask a question. If Borreq decides to take a wolf as another skin.Will that make him a Warg? Why/Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I'll now ask a question. If Borreq decides to take a wolf as another skin.Will that make him a Warg? Why/Why not? Yes, if Borroq took a wolf as his companion, he would be a warg. However, that is not going to happen. Most skinchangers only take one animal at a time. And . . . Varamyr Sixskins was a warg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 V6's approach to skinchanging is no different than Haggon's,or Borreqs,or Griselda or Orell's.They all do the same and have done the same thing.They "take" skins, the animals do not share their skins with them.Where V6's differs from the others or where he strayed is that he uses his animals for horrible means.To prove he's not afraid to push the envelope he takes skins Haggon said shouldn't be taken.He was a rebel,but the crux of what they do he has abided by which is they are the ones every last one of them forces the bond This was Haggon's lesson in telling him what animals were best,worse,easy,hard .....FOR THEM TO TAKE. I think that you are making too general an observation about all skinchangers and wargs based upon Varamyr Sixskins' very nasty way of subjecting many different animals to his beck and call. Other skinchangers and wargs have a much more mutual relationship with their animals. There is no evidence that Orell's eagle resisted him or that Borroq's boar did likewise. You can tell which animals that the incomparable Varamyr Sixskins had to force to do his will. Those animals deserted him immediately after he lost control of himself during the battle. The wolves stayed loyal, and he was able to locate them again and reassume the relationship. The bond there was no longer forced, if it ever was at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 The point is "No regular animal"has shown the capacity to share their skin.Every single one of v6 animals he took, he broke their will and took their skin by force. Like all the skinchangers outside the Stark kids and Dany. The animals can have their will broken which is easy or hard depending on the animal. So he broke the will of One Eye by force while he was a disembodied spirit and one with the wood? That doesn't seem to be what the prologue said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 The Stark kids are different. Dany is different. They never forced any bond,they never new what they were. It was the direwolves that reached out to them. The Starks are different. They are much more powerful than Varamyr Sixskins, who was in turn more powerful than any other warg or skinchanger. As to the direwolves having agency and being able to merge with their powerful warg companions, I agree. That is why Varamyr Sixskins slobbered while looking at Ghost. However, other animals also have a lesser effect on their partners as well. Haggon describes how the choice of animal affects the warg or skinchanger in that the personality of the animal merges with that of the warg or skinchanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I suggest that we forget about the quote regarding "strong women thrust into leadership positions" & just pretend as if it never existed... & perhaps it never did... Then you've got nothing, friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yes, if Borroq took a wolf as his companion, he would be a warg. However, that is not going to happen. Most skinchangers only take one animal at a time. And . . . Varamyr Sixskins was a warg. No he wouldn't Phillip Frye.He wouldn't be a Warg.He'd be a Skinchanger who had wolves. I think that you are making too general an observation about all skinchangers and wargs based upon Varamyr Sixskins' very nasty way of subjecting many different animals to his beck and call. Other skinchangers and wargs have a much more mutual relationship with their animals. There is no evidence that Orell's eagle resisted him or that Borroq's boar did likewise. You can tell which animals that the incomparable Varamyr Sixskins had to force to do his will. Those animals deserted him immediately after he lost control of himself during the battle. The wolves stayed loyal, and he was able to locate them again and reassume the relationship. The bond there was no longer forced, if it ever was at first. So i'm going to repeat this again.IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW V6 TREATED HIS ANIMALS.The answer is all in Haggon's lessons which i quoted upthread.The skinchangers that we met who were all part of the meeting that V6 went to...You know the Skinchanging club they have the same core ideology. 1. They take skins......That's it 2.Take certain type of skins because they are easy 3."The way of the Warg" mutual relationship. V6 didn't "acquire" his animals any differently than Haggon,Borroq,Griselda,or Orell THEY ALL TOOK THEIR SKINS "Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog’s skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. “Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.” Red bolded their ideology....They do not share skins they take skins then they wear then until the animals "learn to accept their collar" So he broke the will of One Eye by force while he was a disembodied spirit and one with the wood? That doesn't seem to be what the prologue said. Phillip Frye really???? Shouldn't you be asking how he got One eye,Sly and Stryker in the first place.Isn't that the point you should be coming from....You know the one that's important. The Starks are different. They are much more powerful than Varamyr Sixskins, who was in turn more powerful than any other warg or skinchanger. As to the direwolves having agency and being able to merge with their powerful warg companions, I agree. That is why Varamyr Sixskins slobbered while looking at Ghost. However, other animals also have a lesser effect on their partners as well. Haggon describes how the choice of animal affects the warg or skinchanger in that the personality of the animal merges with that of the warg or skinchanger. That's not true he said the animals nature affects the host.....Not their choice. To your first sentence this right there is the point the only one that matters.My belief about V6 nor yours matters because they do not address what's most important...The Direwolves and the Crows and their ability with regards to Skinchangers.They are what makes the relationship of the Starks different from V6 and his animals. I'm sorry what was the reason V6 slobbered over Ghost,that was jot made clear from your post there.If its the fact that he was a big ass wolf then yeah. Then you've got nothing, friend. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 I think that the warging and skinchanging argument is unnecessarily polarised and Varamyr's true status misunderstood. There's no doubting that he never started out as a sweet innocent child, but he was a skinchanger and Haggon taught him the ways of skinchanging. Look again at that SSM and Wolfmaid's emphasis: Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2). How much of the mature Varamyr's behaviour is precisely because he is a warg and bound to a wolf? How much of his behaviour is really down not to his being a nasty individual in the first place [and I'm not defending him here] but because because he is a warg - a vicious, predatory pack animal; a wolf. And when his human body dies his spirit is briefly free before being claimed by the pack leader. Come to that, when Jon dies [?] outside the Shieldhall and goes down murmuring Ghost, is he jumping into the lifeboat [and remember this isn't something he's been practicing] or is he being claimed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 V6's approach to skinchanging is no different than Haggon's,or Borreqs,or Griselda or Orell's.They all do the same and have done the same thing.They "take" skins, the animals do not share their skins with them.Where V6's differs from the others or where he strayed is that he uses his animals for horrible means.To prove he's not afraid to push the envelope he takes skins Haggon said shouldn't be taken.He was a rebel,but the crux of what they do he has abided by which is they are the ones every last one of them forces the bond This was Haggon's lesson in telling him what animals were best,worse,easy,hard .....FOR THEM TO TAKE. The Stark kids are different,Dany is different..They never forced any bond,they never new what they were.It was the direwolves that reached out to them. Danm i couldn't find it...I have to look through the past Heresies for it.I did find this in the concordance of Westeros.org though...i'll keep looking or better yet give me the end of next week to put this to rest one way or the other.Not that it matters to the uniqueness of the relationships between Starks and their Direwolves. Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2). I'll now ask a question. If Borreq decides to take a wolf as another skin.Will that make him a Warg? Why/Why not? Sorry Wolfmaid, but I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree. The first page of the prologue calls Varamyr a warg four times: PROLOGUE The night was rank with the smell of man. The warg stopped beneath a tree and sniffed, his grey-brown fur dappled by shadow. A sigh of piney wind brought the man-scent to him, over fainter smells that spoke of fox and hare, seal and stag, even wolf. Those were man-smells too, the warg knew; the stink of old skins, dead and sour, near drowned beneath the stronger scents of smoke and blood and rot. Only man stripped the skins from other beasts and wore their hides and hair. Wargs have no fear of man, as wolves do. Hate and hunger coiled in his belly, and he gave a low growl, calling to his one-eyed brother, to his small sly sister. As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels. They had caught the scent as well. As he ran, he saw through their eyes too and glimpsed himself ahead. The breath of the pack puffed warm and white from long grey jaws. Ice had frozen between their paws, hard as stone, but the hunt was on now, the prey ahead. Flesh, the warg thought, meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 As to the crows as players which I've promoted for some time, I wonder if the truth of the matter might be that just as the Starks are linked to direwolves so the singers are linked to crows, which given the obvious affinity between crows and trees [as heavily underscored by the Raventree Hall business] would make sense. Its also worth noting that as we've discussed before the children of the forest were so named because they lived in "wooden cities" in the trees - like those refugees encountered by the Brotherhood - and the caves basically became their winter quarters when the leaves fell. In that context if we take there to be a bond between singers and crows, then the latter retreating with the singers into the caves might make sense and certainly makes a lot more sense than reckoning Bloodraven is controlling the lot. That would also help explain the singers sleeping in the caves, who Bran/Hodor at first takes to be dead - not greenseers attached to the weirwood but gone into the crows. Hmmm. What about the even more obvious affinity between crows and death? More specifically, crows benefit whenever other beings die. A whole book is named based on this premise - human war and death result in a feast for crows. Combined with the powerful black & white imagery in the cave, it again makes me wonder about the strong parallels between Bran and Arya's story arcs. I agree with you that the crows most likely moved into the cave when the Singers did. Just like Summer is living in there b/c Bran is there (when he's not out hunting, anyway). I'm less sure about the sleeping singers having gone into the crows. They are all sitting on ww thrones, IIRC. Those seem to be designed to facilitate the marriage to the trees... If you were going to go into a crow, I don't think this would require a throne. And shouldn't there be more of them, if they represent all singers who have ever died/gone into their animals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 There is also a natural affinity between ravens and wolves. http://wolveswolves.tumblr.com/post/43801048185/the-relationship-between-wolves-and-ravens-ravens When wolves kill prey the ravens eat the leftovers. Humans have witnessed ravens help lead wolves to prey and warn them of intruders. Maybe we should take this fact of nature as a clue that we should expect an alliance between the Children and the Starks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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