Heresy 178

[MaesterSam]

 

Twas ever thus. We do enjoy ourselves a lot sorting out these clever theories to explain things, but in reality yes an awful lot of things happen simply because GRRM needs them to happen at that particular time and place without troubling himself over-much as to the background and any resultant anomalies. The world, even his, is as it is. :cool4:

Fair enough. I'm willing to believe that there isn't a complicated backstory as to how Jaqen found Arya, or how he got into the Black Cells. However, it seems unlikely, IMO, that Arya just accidentally ended up in Braavos, or that the faceless men generally take in orphans and train them to be assassins. Furthermore, given their general reputation and what we have seen of them thus far, I think it is nearly impossible that said orphan is a warg and gradually developing her abilities without the FM having a clue. I am fairly confident that 1) Jaqen knew Arya wasn't just some orphan girl, noble or not, and 2) that the Kindly Man is well aware of Arya's wolf dreams, of her skinchanging abilities, and most likely of Needle being hidden under the steps. Being so completely fooled by a 10 year old girl just doesn't fit with the - above all, competent- reputation of the faceless men. IMO.

[Black Crow]

 

Does it matter that Sansa never warged into Lady though?

Maybe she did and I'm not recalling it.
 

 

I don't recall her doing it either, but what we've been talking about is this being a mutual bonding which appears to have been initiated by the direwolves, and if so it might be possible for Lady to connect with Sansa without the latter coming knocking first. As I said its heavily stressed how alike the two are in temperament and behaviour - and likewise Arya and Nymeria respectively.

[Black Crow]

That was way after post # 42,43 and 44 though ,after the Warg arguement was introduced.BC believes that v6 is a Warg i think,but what we were speaking of was how different the relationship between Direwolves  and Wargs were.You came in at post #47 with your don't agree with BC and me statement about v6 not being a Warg.So you introduced the topic.We were looking at the Direwolves in the equation.

 

I think that this is getting a bit circular and perhaps time for both you and Feather to agree to disagree on matters of degree as this appears to be  :cheers:

[Black Crow]

Fair enough. I'm willing to believe that there isn't a complicated backstory as to how Jaqen found Arya, or how he got into the Black Cells. However, it seems unlikely, IMO, that Arya just accidentally ended up in Braavos, or that the faceless men generally take in orphans and train them to be assassins. Furthermore, given their general reputation and what we have seen of them thus far, I think it is nearly impossible that said orphan is a warg and gradually developing her abilities without the FM having a clue. I am fairly confident that 1) Jaqen knew Arya wasn't just some orphan girl, noble or not, and 2) that the Kindly Man is well aware of Arya's wolf dreams, of her skinchanging abilities, and most likely of Needle being hidden under the steps. Being so completely fooled by a 10 year old girl just doesn't fit with the - above all, competent- reputation of the faceless men. IMO.

 

Oh I agree with you and the question really is just how far back and how deep do we go to establish why things are as they are. And that rather depends on how important the Faceless Men really are. Is there some hermetic conspiracy going on into which Arya is being drawn, or are they merely one more dodgy encounter in Arya's picaresque journey back to Winterfell?

 

And with that thought, good night all.

[Sly Wren]

 

Well we're told how in life part of the wolf remains in the warg, so even though Lady is physically dead a part of her remains in Sansa and it might be worth considering how much of Lady is there. If we assume that on death [?] Jon goes into Ghost, we're talking a partnership here so why shouldn't Lady go into Sansa. We're told how Lady appears to mimic Sansa in life so in death it may not be immediately apparent that she's still there inside Sansa's head.

Yes--I know it's speculative, but Sansa's intense desire and almost-follow-through of killing Joff--comes right after Ned's death. And her smacking Robin, beheading his doll, and happily spiking it on the castle wall, even though she sees that everyone is shocked--that's right after the "snowflake communion."

 

Seems like the Stark kids' ties to their animals might be different that what happens with V6. 

 

They live with/on their dead. We know that wargs and singers can live on in animals and trees. The idea that the bonded animals of the Starks might also live on in the kids--that Sansa, and possibly now Jon, might be both alive and dead at the same time--doesn't seem completely mad.

 

 

Does it matter that Sansa never warged into Lady though?

Maybe she did and I'm not recalling it.
 

No--Sansa doesn't slip her skin. But Ned notes how very different Lady is. Gentle and quiet--like Sansa. Sounds like Sansa was already influencing her wolf. And now she dreams of Lady, and has that lost time in the "Snowflake Communion" at the Eyrie.

[UnViserion]

 

I don't recall her doing it either, but what we've been talking about is this being a mutual bonding which appears to have been initiated by the direwolves, and if so it might be possible for Lady to connect with Sansa without the latter coming knocking first. As I said its heavily stressed how alike the two are in temperament and behaviour - and likewise Arya and Nymeria respectively.

 

No--Sansa doesn't slip her skin. But Ned notes how very different Lady is. Gentle and quiet--like Sansa. Sounds like Sansa was already influencing her wolf. And now she dreams of Lady, and has that lost time in the "Snowflake Communion" at the Eyrie.

 

Interesting. Lady does seem to fit Sansa's personality some.

 

Shaggy Dog is wild like Rickon.

[wolfmaid7]

 

I don't recall her doing it either, but what we've been talking about is this being a mutual bonding which appears to have been initiated by the direwolves, and if so it might be possible for Lady to connect with Sansa without the latter coming knocking first. As I said its heavily stressed how alike the two are in temperament and behaviour - and likewise Arya and Nymeria respectively.

 

And this bit here is interesting and one of the things needing to be looked at further.Looking at Sansa's POVs she's actually said nothing to indicate she's Warged lady,but yet through the eyes of Ghost and Summer she's stil seen as a wolf.This is what they look like in the minds eyes for them.Bingo on the bolded.

 

I think that this is getting a bit circular and perhaps time for both you and Feather to agree to disagree on matters of degree as this appears to be  :cheers:

 

Yep totally agree.

 

 

Interesting. Lady does seem to fit Sansa's personality some.

 

Shaggy Dog is wild like Rickon.

I dont think i've seen you here before,but welcome.

[Melifeather]

Bran and Arya are examples of wargs who are not limited to their respective wolves. Bran learned how to expand his repertoire with Hodor and the crows/ravens in the cave, and he needed weirwood paste to marry the trees.

 

Arya has slipped into cats and dreams of Nymeria at night and runs with her pack.

 

The wolves were influenced by their owners and the owners are influenced by their wolves the same as skinchangers are effected by their animals, because a part of them is in their animal and a part of the animal is in them.

 

Moving on... :cool4:

[RedViperofDorne54]

 

Up to a point yes, but as Jon innocently points out to Lord Eddard, "your children were meant to have these pups". The newborn pups themselves were crying out for anyone to succour them, and bless my britches there is a warg there for each of them.

It is amazingly convenient that the number of pups matches the Stark children perfectly, in my opinion this could be either one of the unexplainable magical events or someone, perhaps Bloodraven or the COTF manipulating events to put the pups there. If the pups were put there by someone in order to bond with the Starks I'd say that both the children and pups are pawns in that person's plan, albeit pawns with the potential to upset the players schemes.

[Voice]

Yeah, crows and ravens are both corvids, just as peasants and lords are both men. I think, as I take it you're suggesting its down to snobbery. Most of them are common crows, but those used in the noble art of ravenry...

 

Precisely. Thank you for once again finding a way to convey a long thought more succinctly. LOL

[wolfmaid7]

Bran and Arya are examples of wargs who are not limited to their respective wolves. Bran learned how to expand his repertoire with Hodor and the crows/ravens in the cave, and he needed weirwood paste to marry the trees.

 

Arya has slipped into cats and dreams of Nymeria at night and runs with her pack.

 

The wolves were influenced by their owners and the owners are influenced by their wolves the same as skinchangers are effected by their animals, because a part of them is in their animal and a part of the animal is in them.

 

Moving on... :cool4:

Still missing the point.Nobody said they are limited to one animal.The clearly are skinchanging other animals .However,they are bound to their wolves and no other animal as GRRM said Feather that's the point .No matter how many animals they skinchanged they each are bound to one specific Wolf.V6 never did he had a pack that he skinchanged.Not bound to any of them,they were to him.....done with this and moving on

[Voice]

Bran and Arya are examples of wargs who are not limited to their respective wolves. Bran learned how to expand his repertoire with Hodor and the crows/ravens in the cave, and he needed weirwood paste to marry the trees.

 

Arya has slipped into cats and dreams of Nymeria at night and runs with her pack.

 

The wolves were influenced by their owners and the owners are influenced by their wolves the same as skinchangers are effected by their animals, because a part of them is in their animal and a part of the animal is in them.

 

Moving on... :cool4:

 

Indeed, but I would call the influence a sharing of consciousness. At times, the sharing seems almost involuntary, particularly in the beginning of the relationship. As the gift is developed, it becomes quite apparent that the animals have as much impact on the psyche of the human as the humans have on the psyche of the animal. Haggon said as much:

 

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

 

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

 

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

 

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

[Voice]

After all what was that story about "seeing" the Sea Lord's cat really about?

 

RLJ?

[Matthew.]

Nuh chappy your assertion is a bit off hear. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.I'm simply saying this my interpretation and if you disagree fine.This is where i think you get seriously bent out of shape.We are going to have disagreements and if we can't have a consensus then that's cool.I've said my mind isn't bending on this because i see no reason to and we've had this arguement before before you graced Heresy and my mind is still the same...So your danms straight i'll assert my belief but like i said you don't have to take it but you have to accept that i don't agree.

I never said you had to agree with my interpretation. I have said, more than once, that you could be correct; indeed, had your tone, from the very beginning been "here's my interpretation," I don't know that I'd have interjected in the first place. My objection is with declaring certain unconfirmed - and impossible to confirm, as is the case with the nature of Griselda, Borroq, Orell etc.'s bonds - interpretations as fact.

Your words:
"...but that doesn't change one underlying fact.....THEY ALL TAKE BEND THE WILL OF THE CREATURES THEY HAVE.That's how they acquire skins.Simple as that."

I'm not saying "No, that's not what they've all done," I'm saying "no, you can't declare that a fact with as little information as we have--it's open to interpretation." Similarly, the theory that direwolves and ravens form fundamentally different sorts of bonds is exactly that: a theory, something that can be debated, not something that must be accepted as fact.

And, with all due respect, when your posts are peppered with incredulity at people interpreting lines of text differently, all caps declarations, and statements like "you guys are missing a fundamental truth," "admit you're wrong," and "do you follow me so far," that doesn't read as you just presenting your interpretation, it reads as a condescending lecture.

In other words, I'm not getting "here's my idea, though you might disagree" I'm getting "this is the way it is, and how can you possibly disagree with me?"

 

Haggon and BR's talk validates this.The way  Skinchangers acquire skins is by bendig the will of other animals and the determing factor on how hard or easy it is to break through the defensive wall depends on the animal in question.No such breaking of wills have occured with the Direwolves,or Crows who have their own agency and thus have a say in who "they" bound to them.These creatures as i said deserves a closer look at....That was my entire point.

To this point, then:

First, with the ravens, I'll again raise the stallion analogy from Bloodraven, that they've been ridden before, and thus can be ridden again. What fundamentally separates this analogy, and the collar analogy--the dog has known one collar, so it can know another? The implicit suggestion is that a wild raven would be harder, but these ravens have been ridden before, which doesn't entirely jive with the notion that what it really comes down to is ravens displaying a greater degree of agency.

If all of the ravens were once "wild stallions" that first took breaking in, what separates this from the stray cat having to initially become comfortable with Arya's intrusions? IMHO, Bloodraven isn't speaking of the ravens as though they're players in the game, he's speaking of them as though they're...well, horses, to be ridden. Of course, he could be wrong.

--------

As to the direwolves, there's certainly magical things happening with their arrival, and perfect numbers, but how much of that - if any - is attributable to the pups, or even their mother? I agree that someone sent the mother for the specific purpose of awakening the Stark gifts, but beyond that, I think things again become a bit of a gray area. I think "who initiated the bond" could be a bit of a chicken or the egg thing--did Ghost, as a conscious act, select Jon, or did Jon's blood, his gift, naturally attract him to Ghost's need?

[Matthew.]

No--Sansa doesn't slip her skin. But Ned notes how very different Lady is. Gentle and quiet--like Sansa. Sounds like Sansa was already influencing her wolf. 

I agree with this notion. GRRM has confirmed that Sansa has the gift, and it may be that the earliest "sharing" is a thing so subtle - a fragment of dream, a feeling here and there - that it isn't the sort of thing Sansa would note in her POVs.

And, although it's hardly a new idea, I suspect that sort of the opposite is happening with Rickon; being the youngest, and the least self-realized, he has less humanity to impose upon Shaggydog. Thus, Shaggydog will hew more toward his wilder instincts, and in turn, share more of those instincts with Rickon, leading to Rickon being the most wild and savage of the siblings. 

[MaesterSam]

 

Oh I agree with you and the question really is just how far back and how deep do we go to establish why things are as they are. And that rather depends on how important the Faceless Men really are. Is there some hermetic conspiracy going on into which Arya is being drawn, or are they merely one more dodgy encounter in Arya's picaresque journey back to Winterfell?

 

And with that thought, good night all.

 

Oh wow. This possibility never even occurred to me - I always assumed that everything led up to her arrival at the HoBaW, and that her time there would be, or culminate in, the climax of her story arc. I mean, here she is with the mysterious Faceless Men, who we know are the world's most sophisticated killers and whose services cost more than the hiring of an army. What an opportunity! If she just skips town after having learned the basics, that would be a bit disappointing. But you're right of course, it could be just another stop on her journey - maybe designed to place her in Braavos at the same time Daenerys arrives to place an order for a fleet. (After all, the Braavosi ability to build a ship per day is mentioned too often for someone not to buy a fleet from them at some point  :cool4: )

[TheMiddleHero]

Deleted, apparently my tablet keeps wanting to omit my commentary when I post book quotes.

[TheMiddleHero]

 

No--Sansa doesn't slip her skin. But Ned notes how very different Lady is. Gentle and quiet--like Sansa. Sounds like Sansa was already influencing her wolf. And now she dreams of Lady, and has that lost time in the "Snowflake Communion" at the Eyrie.

 

 

Also, maybe not quite like V6, but she has died by the hand of her father through her direwolf.

[Melifeather]

I think Varamyr was a powerful warg who basically taught himself to skinchange many different animals by applying Haggon's earlier lessons. I think that qualifies him to be one of the greats mentioned by Jojen:

 

“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world."

 

A skinchanger is a person that can enter and control an animal. It is easier if there is a bond as instructed by Bloodraven, but with practice the power of the skinchanger grows. The interaction between human and animal will effect the behavior and personality of both, but if the skinchanger doesn't learn to fight off the baser instincts of the animal there can be negative effects. Jojen was trying to teach Bran how to take control of Summer and remind him of who he is instead of letting Summer take control of Bran.

 

“Jojen, what did you mean about a teacher?” Bran asked. “You’re my teacher. I know I never marked the tree, but I will the next time. My third eye is open like you wanted . . .”

 

“So wide open that I fear you may fall through it, and live all the rest of your days as a wolf of the woods.”

 

“I won’t, I promise.”

 

“The boy promises. Will the wolf remember? You run with Summer, you hunt with him, kill with him . . . but you bend to his will more than him to yours.”

 

“I just forget,” Bran complained. “I’m only nine. I’ll be better when I’m older."

 

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

 
 
Also, maybe not quite like V6, but she has died by the hand of her father through her direwolf.

Here again, there's a bit of a difference. Doesn't V6 feel the death of his "familiars?" If I remember correctly that's how his family found out about him. He cried out in pain when the dog was killed. Yet, I don't recall seeing anything similar to this with Sansa when Lady was killed. Interesting.