Heresy 178

[Sly Wren]

I agree with this notion. GRRM has confirmed that Sansa has the gift, and it may be that the earliest "sharing" is a thing so subtle - a fragment of dream, a feeling here and there - that it isn't the sort of thing Sansa would note in her POVs.

And, although it's hardly a new idea, I suspect that sort of the opposite is happening with Rickon; being the youngest, and the least self-realized, he has less humanity to impose upon Shaggydog. Thus, Shaggydog will hew more toward his wilder instincts, and in turn, share more of those instincts with Rickon, leading to Rickon being the most wild and savage of the siblings. 

I completely agree on Rickon--he's the resident beastling. 

 

And Sansa--she notes her intense anger and homicidal intent re: Joff, she notes that people are shocked when she rips the doll--so she knows this is unusual. But she's also really free--doesn't care what anyone thinks. Sansa, who's always thinking about the right way to behave--doesn't care what anyone thinks in those moments. It's subtle, but seems like it might mean she's still connected to Lady.

 

It is amazingly convenient that the number of pups matches the Stark children perfectly, in my opinion this could be either one of the unexplainable magical events or someone, perhaps Bloodraven or the COTF manipulating events to put the pups there. If the pups were put there by someone in order to bond with the Starks I'd say that both the children and pups are pawns in that person's plan, albeit pawns with the potential to upset the players schemes.

Welcome, welcome! And I agree.

 

Not sure "pawns"--not sure anyone could predict exactly how it would go with the pups. They would have killed them had Jon not spoken up. But planting a seed to use later? Very likely.

 

Also, maybe not quite like V6, but she has died by the hand of her father through her direwolf.

And then Ned dies for her--not his plan, but he was lying/betraying his honor for her. 

[Melifeather]

Here again, there's a bit of a difference. Doesn't V6 feel the death of his "familiars?" If I remember correctly that's how his family found out about him. He cried out in pain when the dog was killed. Yet, I don't recall seeing anything similar to this with Sansa when Lady was killed. Interesting.

Sansa wasn't actively warging Lady. We don't even know if she had wolf dreams. Lady took on Sansa's temperament, but that's really the only information we know. She's an untrained warg, so she likely didn't feel the actual death.

[Phillip Frye]

Here again, there's a bit of a difference. Doesn't V6 feel the death of his "familiars?" If I remember correctly that's how his family found out about him. He cried out in pain when the dog was killed. Yet, I don't recall seeing anything similar to this with Sansa when Lady was killed. Interesting.

 

Open to interpretation.  We know that he was inside the eagle when he was burned.  I think that the text implied that he was inside the dog as well when his father killed it.  So, there are two deaths that Varamyr Sixskins probably experienced first hand.  However, nothing else implies that a warg or skinchanger feels the pain of death when his animal dies while the warg or skinchanger is "away".

 

This is pure speculation, but I imagine that the warg or skinchanger is diminished in some way when he loses the animal with which he has bonded.

[Phillip Frye]

I completely agree on Rickon--he's the resident beastling. 

 

Absolutely.  They're going to hanging human entrails in the trees down White Harbor way when Rickon comes to town.

[Phillip Frye]

Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you.

 

A thought occurs.  Perhaps Arya had no trouble skinchanging the cat because she had become vain and cruel herself through her experiences since the first book.  Her nature matched the animal that she skinchanged.

[Black Crow]

I agree with this notion. GRRM has confirmed that Sansa has the gift, and it may be that the earliest "sharing" is a thing so subtle - a fragment of dream, a feeling here and there - that it isn't the sort of thing Sansa would note in her POVs.

And, although it's hardly a new idea, I suspect that sort of the opposite is happening with Rickon; being the youngest, and the least self-realized, he has less humanity to impose upon Shaggydog. Thus, Shaggydog will hew more toward his wilder instincts, and in turn, share more of those instincts with Rickon, leading to Rickon being the most wild and savage of the siblings. 

 

Which is pretty much what I'm suggesting of Varamyr, having at some point incautiously skinchanged a wolf and thus become a warg in a partnership dominated by the wolf.

[Black Crow]

This is pure speculation, but I imagine that the warg or skinchanger is diminished in some way when he loses the animal with which he has bonded.

 

Probably. We're told that a part of the warg or skinchanger is in the familiar and vice versa, so it would be reasonable to suppose that part of the warg or skinchanger dies with the familiar. That being so would suggest that a part of Sansa died with Lady but conversely a part of Lady lives on in Sansa.

[Voice]

 

A thought occurs.  Perhaps Arya had no trouble skinchanging the cat because she had become vain and cruel herself through her experiences since the first book.  Her nature matched the animal that she skinchanged.

 

A man has a thought.

 

A girl has a cat.

 

A cat has a mouse.

 

A girl stalks a mouse and kills without Mercy.

 

 

Sansa wasn't actively warging Lady. We don't even know if she had wolf dreams. Lady took on Sansa's temperament, but that's really the only information we know. She's an untrained warg, so she likely didn't feel the actual death.

 

I don't think we can say Sansa wasn't actively warging Lady. I think any and all Stark children would feel the loss of their direwolves. As Jon told Lord Stark, his children were "meant" to have them. The pups were "meant" to have the children.

 

While V6 screamed, Sansa did cry herself to sleep at night (and that very night, imo), and has oft found herself in a daze of depression ever since.

 

It's a small quibble to be sure, and not of any great import, but I don't think we can clearly delineate between active and passive warging, particularly among the untrained wargs in the infancy of their bond. The connection seems to manifest itself in a completely unpredictable manner.

[RedViperofDorne54]

First, with the ravens, I'll again raise the stallion analogy from Bloodraven, that they've been ridden before, and thus can be ridden again. What fundamentally separates this analogy, and the collar analogy--the dog has known one collar, so it can know another? The implicit suggestion is that a wild raven would be harder, but these ravens have been ridden before, which doesn't entirely jive with the notion that what it really comes down to is ravens displaying a greater degree of agency.

If all of the ravens were once "wild stallions" that first took breaking in, what separates this from the stray cat having to initially become comfortable with Arya's intrusions? IMHO, Bloodraven isn't speaking of the ravens as though they're players in the game, he's speaking of them as though they're...well, horses, to be ridden. Of course, he could be wrong.

--------

As to the direwolves, there's certainly magical things happening with their arrival, and perfect numbers, but how much of that - if any - is attributable to the pups, or even their mother? I agree that someone sent the mother for the specific purpose of awakening the Stark gifts, but beyond that, I think things again become a bit of a gray area. I think "who initiated the bond" could be a bit of a chicken or the egg thing--did Ghost, as a conscious act, select Jon, or did Jon's blood, his gift, naturally attract him to Ghost's need?

:agree:

 

Welcome, welcome! And I agree.

 

Not sure "pawns"--not sure anyone could predict exactly how it would go with the pups. They would have killed them had Jon not spoken up. But planting a seed to use later? Very likely.

 

Thank you for the welcome. Perhaps pawns was the wrong word, what I mean is that I don't think that the wolves have any agency in this. As with the ravens I don't see them as being significantly more intelligent than any other animal, they are useful creatures for others to control, not participants in the game or song.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps pawns was the wrong word, what I mean is that I don't think that the wolves have any agency in this. As with the ravens I don't see them as being significantly more intelligent than any other animal, they are useful creatures for others to control, not participants in the game or song.

 

Depends how you define agency. The fact thewolves and particularly the direwolves are numbered among the old Races, and the way we see them interact with wargs puts them rather above the status of "useful creatures for others to control." That's not to say that they are a discrete faction, but probably best considered allies of the Old Gods rather than their tools, and certainly not simply being controlled by the dead man in the tree. 

[RedViperofDorne54]

 

Depends how you define agency. The fact thewolves and particularly the direwolves are numbered among the old Races, and the way we see them interact with wargs puts them rather above the status of "useful creatures for others to control." That's not to say that they are a discrete faction, but probably best considered allies of the Old Gods rather than their tools, and certainly not simply being controlled by the dead man in the tree. 

I was wondering if this is the quote which numbers direwolves among the old races and if there are any more.

"The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

[TheMiddleHero]

I was wondering if this is the quote which numbers direwolves among the old races and if there are any more.

"The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

 

Always wonder with this quote as to whether they are actually speaking about the direwolves or Starks.

 

 

One thing that strikes me curiously on my recent reread, way past GoT at this point but, why did Robert Baratheon never have any of his own men around? Stannis too. Always Queen's men surrounding them, but no loyal men or personal guard from their own houses. Strange.

[Black Crow]

 

Always wonder with this quote as to whether they are actually speaking about the direwolves or Starks.

 

 

One thing that strikes me curiously on my recent reread, way past GoT at this point but, why did Robert Baratheon never have any of his own men around? Stannis too. Always Queen's men surrounding them, but no loyal men or personal guard from their own houses. Strange.

 

As to the first I don't see any reason not to think they're talking about the direwolves, but the second point is an interesting observation. I don't really think though that there's a hidden significance, just that GRRM wanted to emphasise the way the Lannisters dominated poor old Bob.

[wolfmaid7]

@ Matthew :If all of the ravens were once "wild stallions" that first took breaking in, what separates this from the stray cat having to initially become comfortable with Arya's intrusions? IMHO, Bloodraven isn't speaking of the ravens as though they're players in the game, he's speaking of them as though they're...well, horses, to be ridden. Of course, he could be wrong.

 

 

I have to play catch up eventually with the pages that went before ,i had a birthday party yesterday to attend and so i'm a bit cock eyes this morning or afternoon. IMO its a comparison,not a parallel that should be taken in the context of who the ridders are.If what is said of the COTF are true about their language skills then speaking to the Ravens about forming and alliance would be no problemo.Given what we know this has been going on for thousands of years. Direct path to a symbiotic relationship is better if both parties can meet with one language and the children knew their speech.Soooo there's no need to take them when you can simply ask.

 

If no one posted it yet,this deserves a closer look.

 

 

"Changing his own skin for a raven’s night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as he had feared, not with these ravens. “A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth,” Lord Brynden said, “but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden. Choose one now, and fly.” He chose one bird, and then another, without success, but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes, tilted its head, and gave a quork, and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy."

[TheMiddleHero]

Here again, there's a bit of a difference. Doesn't V6 feel the death of his "familiars?" If I remember correctly that's how his family found out about him. He cried out in pain when the dog was killed. Yet, I don't recall seeing anything similar to this with Sansa when Lady was killed. Interesting.

 

 

It happened from "the Ned's" POV, next time we see Sansa's POV I think is on the way to the Hand's Tourney.

[wolfmaid7]

 

 

It happened from "the Ned's" POV, next time we see Sansa's POV I think is on the way to the Hand's Tourney.

Wasn't V6 directly inside the dogs,he said he was running with them.He was lying inside when he felt the axe crush his skull.He had tried to talk tell his dad no.

[TheMiddleHero]

Wasn't V6 directly inside the dogs,he said he was running with them.He was lying inside when he felt the axe crush his skull.He had tried to talk tell his dad no.

 

 

He was, but at the same time I believe the dog came to his Father's command, regardless of V6 being inside his head. Was just digging into the chapter, will check.

[Black Crow]

He was, but I think he was at the early stage where he was having doggy dreams rather than consciously skin-changing and trying to take over, I think that probably came later under Haggon.

 

ETA: ninja'd by Middle Hero

[wolfmaid7]

He was, but I think he was at the early stage where he was having doggy dreams rather than consciously skin-changing and trying to take over, I think that probably came later under Haggon.

 

ETA: ninja'd by Middle Hero

I don't know,this is an aspect i find very interesting and telling precisely because it is never mentioned.V6 gave a lot of information about his expriance. He spoke about eating as a wolf,effing as a wolf .He spoke about sleeping with the pack and having their bodies next to him.He never mentions any shared dreams with them.

 

I remember Jon saying this of his experiance with Ghost even when he slept next to Ghost he had wolf dreams.Its one of those differences that futher solidifies for me that the relationships are not the same.

[Matthew.]

"Changing his own skin for a raven’s night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as he had feared, not with these ravens. “A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth,” Lord Brynden said, “but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden. Choose one now, and fly.” He chose one bird, and then another, without success, but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes, tilted its head, and gave a quork, and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy."

But given Bloodraven's own stallion analogy, is it better to interpret ravens, all ravens, as being special, or are these ravens special, because they've already been ridden?

The full context, IMHO, suits more naturally a comparison between wildness and domestication - and in this case, the specific, unique circumstance that all of the ravens present have been skinchanged before - as opposed to there being something special about ravens in a more general sense. Sure, the third raven Bran looks to accepts being "ridden," perhaps even extends the invitation, but had this same raven known only wildness, would Bran instead have been in for a bit of a fight? The context of BR's words suggests that he would be.

 

 

I don't know,this is an aspect i find very interesting and telling precisely because it is never mentioned.V6 gave a lot of information about his expriance. He spoke about eating as a wolf,effing as a wolf .He spoke about sleeping with the pack and having their bodies next to him.He never mentions any shared dreams with them.

He doesn't specifically define the times when he's in One-Eye and Stalker as dreams, but he does note that he has spent the last several days slipping in and out of sleep, and has lost track of the distinction between night and day. Additionally, his thoughts when he's skinchanged are clearly wolf thoughts, rather than human thoughts, such as thinking of spears as "wooden teeth."