Heresy 178

[Matthew.]

 

While V6 screamed, Sansa did cry herself to sleep at night (and that very night, imo), and has oft found herself in a daze of depression ever since.

 

To be fair, her life since then has been almost relentlessly, soul-crushingly depressing. However, I do think that a lot of Sansa's emotional journey has been impacted by the loss of her wolf--not so much the lingering effect of the loss, but the fact that, unlike the other Starks, she hasn't had that well of strength (and ferocity?) to draw upon, to keep her going.

[Voice]

To be fair, her life since then has been almost relentlessly, soul-crushingly depressing. However, I do think that a lot of Sansa's emotional journey has been impacted by the loss of her wolf--not so much the lingering effect of the loss, but the fact that, unlike the other Starks, she hasn't had that well of strength (and ferocity?) to draw upon, to keep her going.

Agreed. Arya's wolf blood got Lady killed... and Sansa's lack of strength (ferocity?) is now in so small part contributing to her loss of identity.

Still, I'm not sure we can delineate between active and passive warging in the untrained and early stages.

[Lady Dyanna]

I went back to take a peek at the V6 prologue as it's been a while since I read it. Those who suggested that V6 was actively skinchanging the dog are correct.

He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman’s tears. Bump. She weeps for Bump, but she never wept for me. Lump had been born a month before his proper time, and he was sick so often that no one expected him to live. His mother waited until he was almost four to give him a proper name, and by then it was too late. The whole village had taken to calling him Lump, the name his sister Meha had given him when he was still in their mother’s belly. Meha had given Bump his name as well, but Lump’s little brother had been born in his proper time, big and red and robust, sucking greedily at Mother’s teats. She was going to name him after Father. Bump died, though. He died when he was two and I was six, three days before his nameday. “Your little one is with the gods now,”the woods witch told his mother, as she wept. “He’ll never hurt again, never hunger, never cry. The gods have taken him down into the earth, into the trees. The gods are all around us, in the rocks and streams, in the birds and beasts. Your Bump has gone to join them. He’ll be the world and all that’s in it.”The old woman’s words had gone through Lump like a knife. Bump sees. He is watching me. He knows. Lump could not hide from him, could not slip behind his mother’s skirts or run off with the dogs to escape his father’s fury. The dogs. Loptail, Sniff, the Growler. They were good dogs. They were my friends. When his father found the dogs sniffing round Bump’s body, he had no way of knowing which had done it, so he took his axe to all three. His hands shook so badly that it took two blows to silence Sniff and four to put the Growler down. The smell of blood hung heavy in the air, and the sounds the dying dogs had made were terrible to hear, yet Loptail still came when father called him. He was the oldest dog, and his training overcame his terror. By the time Lump slipped inside his skin it was too late. No, Father, please, he tried to say, but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men, so all that emerged was a piteous whine. The axe crashed into the middle of the old dog’s skull, and inside the hovel the boy let out a scream. That was how they knew. Two days later, his father dragged him into the woods. He brought his axe, so Lump thought he meant to put him down the same way he had done the dogs. Instead he’d given him to Haggon.

I do find it interesting that Hagon shares with V6 that he will suffer a dozen deaths before his true death and that he will feel them all. V6 states that he has experienced nine deaths and felt them all. Was he actively inside each of these animals when they died? Dunno. :dunno:

Haggon’s rough voice echoed in his head. “You will die a dozen deaths, boy, and every one will hurt …but when your true death comes, you will live again. The second life is simpler and sweeter, they say.”Varamyr Sixskins would know the truth of that soon enough. He could taste his true death in the smoke that hung acrid in the air, feel it in the heat beneath his fingers when he slipped a hand under his clothes to touch his wound. The chill was in him too, though, deep down in his bones. This time it would be cold that killed him. His last death had been by fire. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer on the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow …but the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain …Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear’s teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father’s axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle’s eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he’d gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

[wolfmaid7]

But given Bloodraven's own stallion analogy, is it better to interpret ravens, all ravens, as being special, or are these ravens special, because they've already been ridden?

The full context, IMHO, suits more naturally a comparison between wildness and domestication - and in this case, the specific, unique circumstance that all of the ravens present have been skinchanged before - as opposed to there being something special about ravens in a more general sense. Sure, the third raven Bran looks to accepts being "ridden," perhaps even extends the invitation, but had this same raven known only wildness, would Bran instead have been in for a bit of a fight? The context of BR's words suggests that he would be.

 

 

He doesn't specifically define the times when he's in One-Eye and Stalker as dreams, but he does note that he has spent the last several days slipping in and out of sleep, and has lost track of the distinction between night and day. Additionally, his thoughts when he's skinchanged are clearly wolf thoughts, rather than human thoughts, such as thinking of spears as "wooden teeth."

I think the special nature comes after the fact and is contingent on what i mentioned earlier.The COTF knew the language of Ravens so that barrier most likely was removed with them just communicating what they wanted to do.Especially if it was a matter of "Hey we have a common enemy this is how we can help each other out."

 

Bran earlier in that same chapter said that the Ravens knew the Old tongue,so again i think they initially had less of a language barrier because the COTF knew Raven speech.

 

He doesn't 'say' anything about being in their dreams and we have the times in the text when he was in them,that's tangible.The times he slipped in and out of conciousness we have a blank and he has a blank.We get when he in his pack killed the woman,man and baby.He was awake,weak,but awake and lucid.

 

"Leagues away, in a one-room hut of mud and straw with a thatched roof and a smoke hole and a floor of hard-packed earth, Varamyr shivered and coughed and licked his lips. His eyes were red, his lips cracked, his throat dry and parched, but the taste of blood and fat filled his mouth, even as his swollen belly cried for nourishment. A child’s flesh, he thought, remembering Bump. Human meat. Had he sunk so low as to hunger after human meat? He could almost hear Haggon growling at him. “Men may eat the flesh of beasts and beasts the flesh of men, but the man who eats the flesh of man is an abomination.”

 

some time later....

How long had she been gone? Two days? Three? Varamyr was uncertain. It was dark inside the hut, and he had been drifting in and out of sleep, never quite sure if it was day or night outside. “Wait,” she’d said. “I will be back with food.” So like a fool he’d waited, dreaming of Haggon and Bump and all the wrongs he had done in his long life, but days and nights had passed and Thistle had not returned.

 

We get nothing from his past or present that says he's ever shared dreams with any of his animals.

 

The next time we get him in his wolf this time One eye,he just died and he was in him racing toward where he and Thistle was.

[Sly Wren]

 

Thank you for the welcome. Perhaps pawns was the wrong word, what I mean is that I don't think that the wolves have any agency in this. As with the ravens I don't see them as being significantly more intelligent than any other animal, they are useful creatures for others to control, not participants in the game or song.

 

I was wondering if this is the quote which numbers direwolves among the old races and if there are any more.

"The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

Agree that the animals don't have the same will as humans or Children. But the quote you just gave does seem to imply some kind of partnership. An inclusive partnership.

 

"Changing his own skin for a raven’s night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as he had feared, not with these ravens. “A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth,” Lord Brynden said, “but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden. Choose one now, and fly.” He chose one bird, and then another, without success, but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes, tilted its head, and gave a quork, and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy."

Completely co-opting this quote for my point to RedViperofDorne54--really makes this sound like the animals and the humans or Children have a type of partnership.

 

Leaf makes it sound like they are all in this together. And, given how the Stark kids are about their wolves, seems like Leaf has a point.

[Sly Wren]

To be fair, her life since then has been almost relentlessly, soul-crushingly depressing. However, I do think that a lot of Sansa's emotional journey has been impacted by the loss of her wolf--not so much the lingering effect of the loss, but the fact that, unlike the other Starks, she hasn't had that well of strength (and ferocity?) to draw upon, to keep her going.

Yes--in the Eyrie, Sansa talks about the godswood without trees being as empty as she is. 

 

Godswoods are "full" because of what the trees connect humans to--old gods, ancestors, memories, family. Sansa is empty of her wolf. No well of strength, as you say. Until the snowflake communion--then she seems rather better.

 

Reconnected to her wolf?

 

Agreed. Arya's wolf blood got Lady killed... and Sansa's lack of strength (ferocity?) is now in so small part contributing to her loss of identity.

Still, I'm not sure we can delineate between active and passive warging in the untrained and early stages.

Agreed--seems more like a connection to self, especially if Jojen is right. Active warging and slipping skins--that comes later. What the kids did instinctively--connecting--that still seems to have big psychological and emotional impact.

[wolfmaid7]

 

Agree that the animals don't have the same will as humans or Children. But the quote you just gave does seem to imply some kind of partnership. An inclusive partnership.

 

Completely co-opting this quote for my point to RedViperofDorne54--really makes this sound like the animals and the humans or Children have a type of partnership.

 

Leaf makes it sound like they are all in this together. And, given how the Stark kids are about their wolves, seems like Leaf has a point.

Yep this is what i took away,that it was a partnership with the crows having autonomy in who they let share their skin.But back to Mattew's point about them ever being wild.The one's in the cave maybe a very very long time ago,but again we have to consider the environment that the exist in as a whole which include creatures that can and could communicate with them.

 

I want to also mention this as we are on the topic of language and communication.I'm about to do some shameless promotion please check out my "Those who sing thread"

 

This interesting tidbit :

 

“And he loved to listen to the Direwolves sing to the stars. Of late he often dreamed of wolves .They are talking to me brother to brother, he told himself when the Direwolves howled.He could almost understand them.Not quite….almost……as if they were singing in a language he had once known and somehow forgotten(Bran,ACOK,pg.71)…………..If I were a true wolf I’d understand the song.

 

I believe some individuals have a corresponding song Starks/wolves,Dany/Drogon,COTF/Crows.

[Black Crow]

 

 

Reconnected to her wolf?

 

 

 

I think that this is the real difference between warging and common skinchanging. On easy reading the two appear to be an ability by those so "blessed" to slip into the minds of animals and even thereby control them, although a lot of the time it appears pretty passive. Haggon talked about taking on the characteristics of the familiar and Jojen's telling Bran that part of the warg is in the wolf and part of the wolf in the warg. Its like the old joke of dogs and their owners in our world being said to look like each other, and the whole business of training dogs before they train you.

 

GRRM as we've noted said in that SSM that wargs were bound to their wolves [which clearly isn't the same thing as only being able to skinchange into their wolf] which suggests a much closer relationship than in ordinary skinchanging and Haggon said the same. As I pointed out earlier, when he truly died Varamyr didn't decide to jump into One-eye. He expected to go into one of the wolves in the the pack which he belonged to, but he didn't know which one and at first his soul was free until One-eye claimed him.

 

We've also seen how Ghost appears at times to take over Jon - particularly in that episode with Iron Emmett, where Jon himself didn't know it was happening, and those wolf dreams which Jon experiences and especially the one in the Skirling Pass might arguably be down to Ghost inviting him to look.

 

Which is coming a long way, albeit with reasons, to suggest that this much more equal partnership between warg and wolf may mean that although Lady experienced true death her soul may be living its second life in Sansa and has been "unlocked" or awoken by the snowflake communion.

[Melifeather]

All this discussion about skinchanging caused me to wonder if the Knight of the Laughing Tree wasn't being skinchanged much like Bran inside Hodor?

 

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, ‘Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.’ Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman’s prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?”

 

Whether you believe the KOTLT was Howland or Lyanna, it does seem as if the Knight was being actively inhabited. Howland's prayer directed at the Isle of Faces was likely a request and permission for the connection. This is one explanation for how someone so slight could become so strong.

[Melifeather]

 

I think that this is the real difference between warging and common skinchanging. On easy reading the two appear to be an ability by those so "blessed" to slip into the minds of animals and even thereby control them, although a lot of the time it appears pretty passive. Haggon talked about taking on the characteristics of the familiar and Jojen's telling Bran that part of the warg is in the wolf and part of the wolf in the warg. Its like the old joke of dogs and their owners in our world being said to look like each other, and the whole business of training dogs before they train you.

 

GRRM as we've noted said in that SSM that wargs were bound to their wolves [which clearly isn't the same thing as only being able to skinchange into their wolf] which suggests a much closer relationship than in ordinary skinchanging and Haggon said the same. As I pointed out earlier, when he truly died Varamyr didn't decide to jump into One-eye. He expected to go into one of the wolves in the the pack which he belonged to, but he didn't know which one and at first his soul was free until One-eye claimed him.

 

We've also seen how Ghost appears at times to take over Jon - particularly in that episode with Iron Emmett, where Jon himself didn't know it was happening, and those wolf dreams which Jon experiences and especially the one in the Skirling Pass might arguably be down to Ghost inviting him to look.

 

Which is coming a long way, albeit with reasons, to suggest that this much more equal partnership between warg and wolf may mean that although Lady experienced true death her soul may be living its second life in Sansa and has been "unlocked" or awoken by the snowflake communion.

 

 

I fail to see a significance to the bonding other than a benefit to making the skinchanging easier. Who's to say Borroq didn't have a bond with his boar, Briar with his shadow cat, and Grisella with her goat? 

 

Varamyr was getting weaker and weaker so he may not have had the strength to choose which wolf he lived his second life in. One Eye was the oldest and likely ridden the most and therefore the easiest to enter.

[Black Crow]

The point of being bound was exactly what I [and Haggon] laid out. Its a partnership and the wolf or direwolf in involved not a passive victim - hence the taking over Jon to beat up on Iron Emmett and Varamyr being chaimed by One-eye rather than deciding to go into him.

[Melifeather]

The point of being bound was exactly what I [and Haggon] laid out. Its a partnership and the wolf or direwolf in involved not a passive victim - hence the taking over Jon to beat up on Iron Emmett and Varamyr being chaimed by One-eye rather than deciding to go into him.

 

I agree that the skinchanger is changed by the relationship. Wolves being predators would increase the aggressiveness of the warg, but wouldn't you agree that the Borroq also took on characteristics of his boar?

[Melifeather]

To expand on the idea that Howland as the Knight of the Laughing Tree may have had some help via Green Men from the Isle of Faces, perhaps he in turn tried entering Arthur Dayne confusing him enough for Ned to kill him? Thistle actively fought Varamyr off, but she was aware he was a skinchanger so she knew what he was trying to do. Arthur would have been caught off guard and distracted enough that it would have been easy for Ned to kill him.

 

Something to think about.

[Matthew.]

I think the special nature comes after the fact and is contingent on what i mentioned earlier.The COTF knew the language of Ravens so that barrier most likely was removed with them just communicating what they wanted to do.Especially if it was a matter of "Hey we have a common enemy this is how we can help each other out."

 

The ravens may have been useful for bridging gaps, but being perceived as useful is not necessarily the same as being perceived as an equal. Bloodraven, at the least, does not speak of ravens in a way that accords any extraordinary respect--they're a "horse," to be ridden, and these ravens are only unique in that they've already been ridden, and will thus be easier to use. Perhaps the CotF view things differently, but I'm not reading Bloodraven's words as him treating ravens as a whole as partners.

 

He doesn't 'say' anything about being in their dreams and we have the times in the text when he was in them,that's tangible.The times he slipped in and out of conciousness we have a blank and he has a blank.We get when he in his pack killed the woman,man and baby.He was awake,weak,but awake and lucid.

 

 

We get nothing from his past or present that says he's ever shared dreams with any of his animals.

 

The next time we get him in his wolf this time One eye,he just died and he was in him racing toward where he and Thistle was.

 

The problem with this is that just because Varamyr doesn't ever specifically think the words "Oh, and that one time when I was having a wolf dream..." does not prove that he never has wolf dreams, and how lucid he actually was throughout that prologue chapter is debatable.

By his own words, he'd been slipping in and out of sleep, so when he's stirring back to himself after his pack has gotten their most recent kill, can we say with certainty he'd been awake and actively skinchanging that whole time, or had he just reawakened from a wolf dream?

With the information we have, we cannot reasonably determine whether or not Varamyr has wolf dreams, and if the distinction were truly that important, it would be communicated in more unambiguous terms. 

I have no problem with the basic premise that there's a deeper, more significant bond between the Starks and their wolves, to such a degree that their minds "blend" even in sleep, but that depth of connection is already adequately communicated by the Starks. From a storytelling perspective, what's the plot value of creating the distinction that Varamyr doesn't have wolf dreams, and then burying that concept so deeply that most readers aren't going to come away from the prologue with that impression?

I raise the question, in part, because GRRM himself says there's no system to his magic, and that readers are going way too far in reading everything as a subtle clue--magic exists to be mysterious, and to move the plot forward, so if we're going to set a condition on magic (eg, only certain skinchangers have animal dreams), I think it needs to serve a plot purpose.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for the total opposite position, I'm saying that we can't confirm this either way with the information we have, very likely because it's the sort of thing that GRRM himself doesn't even think about during the writing process.  :dunno:

[Matthew.]

A broader question, to both BC and WM:

Lets say that the basic premise of crows and direwolves being special, or even being "players" is true: what next? What are the consequences of this being true? 

Specifically, how far is the players/pieces thing to be carried--are they only players in the sense that their bond mates, knowingly or not, begin to take on bestial characteristics? I ask because, when I read "players," I think of figures acting with planning, and intent. Not just influencing others, but influencing them toward a particular end. Is that what you guys mean by players, or is the only significance the influence they have on personalities?

As an example, we see the shaggy, savage Kings of Winter, who may very well have bonded with direwolves from a young age. Is this only important in the sense that these men were more "wolfish," more vicious, more inclined by personality to conquer, or are you suggesting that the influence goes beyond bestial personality traits, and that the direwolves are actually conspiring toward a broader goal?

I'm not asking this derisively by the way, I'm just trying to see the full picture.

[wolfmaid7]

The ravens may have been useful for bridging gaps, but being perceived as useful is not necessarily the same as being perceived as an equal. Bloodraven, at the least, does not speak of ravens in a way that accords any extraordinary respect--they're a "horse," to be ridden, and these ravens are only unique in that they've already been ridden, and will thus be easier to use. Perhaps the CotF view things differently, but I'm not reading Bloodraven's words as him treating ravens as a whole as partners.

 

 

The problem with this is that just because Varamyr doesn't ever specifically think the words "Oh, and that one time when I was having a wolf dream..." does not prove that he never has wolf dreams, and how lucid he actually was throughout that prologue chapter is debatable.

By his own words, he'd been slipping in and out of sleep, so when he's stirring back to himself after his pack has gotten their most recent kill, can we say with certainty he'd been awake and actively skinchanging that whole time, or had he just reawakened from a wolf dream?

With the information we have, we cannot reasonably determine whether or not Varamyr has wolf dreams, and if the distinction were truly that important, it would be communicated in more unambiguous terms. 

I have no problem with the basic premise that there's a deeper, more significant bond between the Starks and their wolves, to such a degree that their minds "blend" even in sleep, but that depth of connection is already adequately communicated by the Starks. From a storytelling perspective, what's the plot value of creating the distinction that Varamyr doesn't have wolf dreams, and then burying that concept so deeply that most readers aren't going to come away from the prologue with that impression?

I raise the question, in part, because GRRM himself says there's no system to his magic, and that readers are going way too far in reading everything as a subtle clue--magic exists to be mysterious, and to move the plot forward, so if we're going to set a condition on magic (eg, only certain skinchangers have animal dreams), I think it needs to serve a plot purpose.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for the total opposite position, I'm saying that we can't confirm this either way with the information we have, very likely because it's the sort of thing that GRRM himself doesn't even think about during the writing process.  :dunno:

 

Matthew to be honest no one is setting conditions on magic.If anyone knows its me being a Pagan and a practicing witch.Its unpredictable you may get what you want when you do an incantation,the price you pay may not br high enough so the universe takes it in spades and asks no questions.Its not meant to mysterious it IS mysterious and that's why you write as you go.I think GRRM has captured that aspect well,the not knowing how things will turn out especially where maic is concerned.

 

There are things BR has told Bran that seems very contrary,but there are patterns that emerge acroos the board.So if a deadish man in a tree says something suspect but its validated by another source whose just saying hings from experiance we may want to consider its got some truth to it.

 

Back to the grows you say being the Crows are being percieved as useful by the COTF,that may be true but you have to present something reasonable to show that. The very nature of the COTF causes me to reject that notion that the Crows are just useful,again consider the world they belong to how they view nature and the creatures in nature.Their worldview doesn't fit them seeing the Crows as "useful".

 

Back to v6 and what's the plot value,again swtich perception if we look at it from the point where its V6 to the animals we will be him centric.The plot value isn't about him not having wolfdreams,its about him not having wolfdreams because his animals are different .Which brings me to what you say below......

A broader question, to both BC and WM:

Lets say that the basic premise of crows and direwolves being special, or even being "players" is true: what next? What are the consequences of this being true? 

Specifically, how far is the players/pieces thing to be carried--are they only players in the sense that their bond mates, knowingly or not, begin to take on bestial characteristics? I ask because, when I read "players," I think of figures acting with planning, and intent. Not just influencing others, but influencing them toward a particular end. Is that what you guys mean by players, or is the only significance the influence they have on personalities?

As an example, we see the shaggy, savage Kings of Winter, who may very well have bonded with direwolves from a young age. Is this only important in the sense that these men were more "wolfish," more vicious, more inclined by personality to conquer, or are you suggesting that the influence goes beyond bestial personality traits, and that the direwolves are actually conspiring toward a broader goal?

I'm not asking this derisively by the way, I'm just trying to see the full picture.

So if the Direwolves are and crows are players in this what's a 'possible' path in this.For me a whole host of shit opens up because that creates sympathetic humans.Humans who are linked to the otherside.

[Lord Ravenstark]

All this discussion about skinchanging caused me to wonder if the Knight of the Laughing Tree wasn't being skinchanged much like Bran inside Hodor?
 
“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, ‘Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.’ Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman’s prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?”
 
Whether you believe the KOTLT was Howland or Lyanna, it does seem as if the Knight was being actively inhabited. Howland's prayer directed at the Isle of Faces was likely a request and permission for the connection. This is one explanation for how someone so slight could become so strong.

Perhaps the Knight was Leaf…

[Black Crow]

 

 

...Back to v6 and what's the plot value,again switch perception if we look at it from the point where its V6 to the animals we will be him centric.The plot value isn't about him not having wolfdreams,its about him not having wolfdreams because his animals are different .Which brings me to what you say below......

So if the Direwolves are and crows are players in this what's a 'possible' path in this.For me a whole host of shit opens up because that creates sympathetic humans.Humans who are linked to the otherside.

 

Yeah, having had a lot of time to think this through since I first raised the possibility of the crows being something special, I'm more inclined to see them not as a discrete faction - or players if you like - but rather see them as allies of the Old Gods, and as I suggested above may have a similar relationship to the singers as wolves do to wargs. They may not be equals but are certainly the favoured partners. 

 

Essentially I'm thinking in global terms of the singers and the other old races, all interdependent upon one another and each contributing in their own way - and in that context of course Craster's sons and the wights shambling in their wake being tools rather than a third party. 

 

So far as "sympathetic" humans are concerned, yes, there we go all the way back to the wildling women lying with the Others to create those "terrible half-human children" for how else is the skinchanging ability introduced to human blood? And yes this, surely, is where the Starks and "their" wolves come in. 

[Melifeather]

The ravens may have been useful for bridging gaps, but being perceived as useful is not necessarily the same as being perceived as an equal. Bloodraven, at the least, does not speak of ravens in a way that accords any extraordinary respect--they're a "horse," to be ridden, and these ravens are only unique in that they've already been ridden, and will thus be easier to use. Perhaps the CotF view things differently, but I'm not reading Bloodraven's words as him treating ravens as a whole as partners.

 

 

The problem with this is that just because Varamyr doesn't ever specifically think the words "Oh, and that one time when I was having a wolf dream..." does not prove that he never has wolf dreams, and how lucid he actually was throughout that prologue chapter is debatable.

By his own words, he'd been slipping in and out of sleep, so when he's stirring back to himself after his pack has gotten their most recent kill, can we say with certainty he'd been awake and actively skinchanging that whole time, or had he just reawakened from a wolf dream?

With the information we have, we cannot reasonably determine whether or not Varamyr has wolf dreams, and if the distinction were truly that important, it would be communicated in more unambiguous terms. 

I have no problem with the basic premise that there's a deeper, more significant bond between the Starks and their wolves, to such a degree that their minds "blend" even in sleep, but that depth of connection is already adequately communicated by the Starks. From a storytelling perspective, what's the plot value of creating the distinction that Varamyr doesn't have wolf dreams, and then burying that concept so deeply that most readers aren't going to come away from the prologue with that impression?

I raise the question, in part, because GRRM himself says there's no system to his magic, and that readers are going way too far in reading everything as a subtle clue--magic exists to be mysterious, and to move the plot forward, so if we're going to set a condition on magic (eg, only certain skinchangers have animal dreams), I think it needs to serve a plot purpose.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for the total opposite position, I'm saying that we can't confirm this either way with the information we have, very likely because it's the sort of thing that GRRM himself doesn't even think about during the writing process.  :dunno:

 

 

A broader question, to both BC and WM:

Lets say that the basic premise of crows and direwolves being special, or even being "players" is true: what next? What are the consequences of this being true? 

Specifically, how far is the players/pieces thing to be carried--are they only players in the sense that their bond mates, knowingly or not, begin to take on bestial characteristics? I ask because, when I read "players," I think of figures acting with planning, and intent. Not just influencing others, but influencing them toward a particular end. Is that what you guys mean by players, or is the only significance the influence they have on personalities?

As an example, we see the shaggy, savage Kings of Winter, who may very well have bonded with direwolves from a young age. Is this only important in the sense that these men were more "wolfish," more vicious, more inclined by personality to conquer, or are you suggesting that the influence goes beyond bestial personality traits, and that the direwolves are actually conspiring toward a broader goal?

I'm not asking this derisively by the way, I'm just trying to see the full picture.

 

 

You verbalized this very well, and I agree pretty wholeheartedly.

[wolfmaid7]

 
Yeah, having had a lot of time to think this through since I first raised the possibility of the crows being something special, I'm more inclined to see them not as a discrete faction - or players if you like - but rather see them as allies of the Old Gods, and as I suggested above may have a similar relationship to the singers as wolves do to wargs. They may not be equals but are certainly the favoured partners. 
 
Essentially I'm thinking in global terms of the singers and the other old races, all interdependent upon one another and each contributing in their own way - and in that context of course Craster's sons and the wights shambling in their wake being tools rather than a third party. 
 
So far as "sympathetic" humans are concerned, yes, there we go all the way back to the wildling women lying with the Others to create those "terrible half-human children" for how else is the skinchanging ability introduced to human blood? And yes this, surely, is where the Starks and "their" wolves come in. 

Yeah this is essentially it.Though I still don't believe they are just "useful" .This ofcourse is a matter of the percieved world view of the Those who sing the song of earth who as I believe are not limited to the little tree huggers.

The thing with the Crows are they're in positions of autonomy. Where they can be allied with or have their own agenda re:3eyed crow who I dont believe is BR.