Stannis Baratheon - Lord Commander of the Nights Watch

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

How does him having a massive ego make him a villain?
 

[Stag_legion]

How does him having a massive ego make him a villain?
 

Its a ubiquitous trait assigned to villains in most literature. An egomaniac doesn't necessarily equal traditional villain in all cases, but such characters are rarely portrayed sympathetically.

You say stannis is sympathetic but you never tell us what exactly makes him sympathetic, all you ever say about stannis paints him in a negative light.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

But this isn't traditional fiction, there are no heroes or villians. Stannis is neither. Thats why I like him. 

Him having a massive ego doesn't make him evil or good, it makes him someone who's got an ego and a sense of self righteousness. I personally see most of his actions as acts of self interest, that might consequently have good or bad effects. 

He's sympathetic on the show because I feel sympathy for him. He was doing what he felt was right, but lost everything. Its pretty simple. 

[Stag_legion]

But this isn't traditional fiction, there are no heroes or villians. Stannis is neither. Thats why I like him. 

Him having a massive ego doesn't make him evil or good, it makes him someone who's got an ego and a sense of self righteousness. I personally see most of his actions as acts of self interest, that might consequently have good or bad effects. 

He's sympathetic on the show because I feel sympathy for him. He was doing what he felt was right, but lost everything. Its pretty simple. 

But if he were as egotistical as you say, he was doing what he did because of selfish reasons. If he was actually trying to do something good (in his point of view) for other people, then he is by definition not as egotistical as you say. it would be more proper to say that he was overly proud or self righteous, but being egotistical does not lend itself to helping other people or wanting to do well by others.

 

That's why truly egotistical characters are almost never sympathetic. They can only fall short of being traditional villains because they don't go out of their way to be cruel. But there is little sympathy for a character who only cares about himself.

 

 

[Wavey Sauce]

I'm still not convinced he cares about anything outside of his own massive ego.

Thats not the case whether how much he cares. He cared enough to go all the way there. And even if he cared 0% (which I dont think) does not change the fact that all of the NW including Jon Snow would be boiled alive and the wildlings would be roaming the north

[Wavey Sauce]

But this isn't traditional fiction, there are no heroes or villians. Stannis is neither. Thats why I like him. 

Him having a massive ego doesn't make him evil or good, it makes him someone who's got an ego and a sense of self righteousness. I personally see most of his actions as acts of self interest, that might consequently have good or bad effects. 

He's sympathetic on the show because I feel sympathy for him. He was doing what he felt was right, but lost everything. Its pretty simple. 

Ok I am calling BS.

 

I can bring up at least 10+ posts from you saying you are glad he is dead and that you don;t like him anyway etc etc

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

But if he were as egotistical as you say, he was doing what he did because of selfish reasons. If he was actually trying to do something good (in his point of view) for other people, then he is by definition not as egotistical as you say. it would be more proper to say that he was overly proud or self righteous, but being egotistical does not lend itself to helping other people or wanting to do well by others.

 

That's why truly egotistical characters are almost never sympathetic. They can only fall short of being traditional villains because they don't go out of their way to be cruel. But there is little sympathy for a character who only cares about himself.

 

 

I think you are talking in black and white terms, whereas people in reality are shades of grey and don't have consistent behaviour. Stannis being egotistical doesn't preclude him from other character traits, nor does it mean he can't be a sympathetic character. There is no doubt he puts his own goals and values in front of those of others, and in front of the well being of others. Sometimes that leads to him doing good, sometimes it doesn't. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Ok I am calling BS.

 

I can bring up at least 10+ posts from you saying you are glad he is dead and that you don;t like him anyway etc etc

I think you'd struggle, a bit like in this post where I mentioned my favourite ever scene is a Stannis scene.

 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/135171-spoilers-justifiy-show-stanniss-differences-from-book-stannis/&do=findComment&comment=7331747

[Stag_legion]

I think you are talking in black and white terms, whereas people in reality are shades of grey and don't have consistent behaviour. Stannis being egotistical doesn't preclude him from other character traits, nor does it mean he can't be a sympathetic character. There is no doubt he puts his own goals and values in front of those of others, and in front of the well being of others. Sometimes that leads to him doing good, sometimes it doesn't. 

 

 This is what you said "I'm still not convinced he cares about anything outside of his own massive ego.". which is pretty black and white.

Your characterization is easily refuted in the books with the little part about stannis and his hawk proudwing. That story shows he does have altruistic tenancies, he was willing to be inconvenienced (being made fun of by Robert) to help the weak. The story also shows why stannis appears so steely in personality in the timeline of the books. He learned that acting altruistic in competitive fields does not lend itself to winning. He can afford to be altruistic when he has defeated his enemies, as he was to some degree with the wildlings after defeating them.

GRRM supported this directly when he made a clip for the show in season 4 (which actually contradicted the show runners to some degree).

 

[BalerionTheCat]

The show and the books are largely different, at least for now and for not so major characters. See Mance for example.

I could see Stannis finally understanding his error, kill Melisandre and take the Black. I don't say it will be, but would like it. Possibly exchanging position with Jon. In the show, either Stannis is dead or will return in season 7. In the end (books), I believe he must die, because of his kinslaying.

[Stag_legion]

The show and the books are largely different, at least for now and for not so major characters. See Mance for example.

I could see Stannis finally understanding his error, kill Melisandre and take the Black. I don't say it will be, but would like it. Possibly exchanging position with Jon. In the show, either Stannis is dead or will return in season 7. In the end (books), I believe he must die, because of his kinslaying.

So does Tyrion also have to die by the end? how bout Dany?

Stannis didn't even kill Renly directly (unlike tyrion), so he wasn't technically a kinslayer. Furthermore his supposed kinslaying is more understandable since he was at war with his brother. Kinslaying is bound to happen in very powerful families, since the biggest political threat is usually another family member. and in universe pretty much all great houses have had incidents of "kinslaying".

Stannis already payed a huge price for the indirect kinslaying on blackwater (renly's ghost for example), for him to pay anymore would be excessive. he already has a heavy heart about the whole ordeal and regrets Renly's death, in spite the fact he offered an out for his brother at the parley. I personally don't think GRRM will make him pay anymore other than the sense of guilt he will carry around.

[BalerionTheCat]

So does Tyrion also have to die by the end? how bout Dany?

Stannis didn't even kill Renly directly (unlike tyrion), so he wasn't technically a kinslayer. Furthermore his supposed kinslaying is more understandable since he was at war with his brother. Kinslaying is bound to happen in very powerful families, since the biggest political threat is usually another family member. and in universe pretty much all great houses have had incidents of "kinslaying".

Stannis already payed a huge price for the indirect kinslaying on blackwater (renly's ghost for example), for him to pay anymore would be excessive. he already has a heavy heart about the whole ordeal and regrets Renly's death, in spite the fact he offered an out for his brother at the parley. I personally don't think GRRM will make him pay anymore other than the sense of guilt he will carry around.

Daenerys let someone kill her brother, she just did nothing. I see a difference.

The shadow was Stannis. He (maybe) was not aware of exactly what Melisandre was doing. But he killed his brother nonetheless.

I see no excuse to Tyrion for killing his father (I'm convinced he was his father). So I would expect a similar fate for him, if this kinslaying curse is as real as supposed.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 This is what you said "I'm still not convinced he cares about anything outside of his own massive ego.". which is pretty black and white.

Your characterization is easily refuted in the books with the little part about stannis and his hawk proudwing. That story shows he does have altruistic tenancies, he was willing to be inconvenienced (being made fun of by Robert) to help the weak. The story also shows why stannis appears so steely in personality in the timeline of the books. He learned that acting altruistic in competitive fields does not lend itself to winning. He can afford to be altruistic when he has defeated his enemies, as he was to some degree with the wildlings after defeating them.

GRRM supported this directly when he made a clip for the show in season 4 (which actually contradicted the show runners to some degree).

Nope, still not seeing it. I don't think that proudwing story has anything to do with Stannis being altruistic. It might have something to do with his tendency to raise up lower people to power to make them loyal (Davos) or his pride , or his coldness when he realised he was making a fool of himself. I don't think it has anything to do with him being caring, or says anything about his ego.

Neither do I think that GRRM quote proves anything either. Its from the book, but hes still only trying to save a realm so he can be king, its a blatantly eogistic position, he feels the realm will only be safe with him in charge. I'm sure Stalin and Napoleon felt the same.

[Stag_legion]

Nope, still not seeing it. I don't think that proudwing story has anything to do with Stannis being altruistic. It might have something to do with his tendency to raise up lower people to power to make them loyal (Davos) or his pride , or his coldness when he realised he was making a fool of himself. I don't think it has anything to do with him being caring, or says anything about his ego.
Neither do I think that GRRM quote proves anything either. Its from the book, but hes still only trying to save a realm so he can be king, its a blatantly eogistic position, he feels the realm will only be safe with him in charge. I'm sure Stalin and Napoleon felt the same.

I hope you are just saying this cause you don't want to lose an argument and not because you actually believe what you are saying.

 

Some guy nurses an injured bird to health, wow what a manipulative bastard he is!

In that vid GRRM isn't simply quoting the book, he's saying it as a matter of fact. As in "this is what stannis is thinking" and not "this is what stannis is claiming".

I know you think stannis is a selfish A-hole but that's not what GRRM intended him to be. as is apparent from the text of the book. Is stannis still trying to be king? sure he is, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about helping other people. You seem to think stannis' quest for the throne necessitates him being entirely selfish which isn't the case.

[SusieSnow]

Just some thoughts....

I think it may be possible that Brienne spares Stannis life. I don't think his part to play is over yet. At this point, Briennes duty is to save Sansa - not avenge Renly.... and I can't help but feel like she may enlist Stannis help in trying to do so.  Technically, he's the current rightful King and he would be of more benefit to Brienne alive. After all, why would they waste valuable screen time sending Stannis and Davos to Braavos to get a ton of gold for nothing??? What's gunna happen with all that gold and all those ships, etc???

Also, the foundation has already been laid in prior shows for Stannis to legitimize Jon Snow. I suspect Brienne will bring Stannis back to the wall, where Melisandre will resurrect Jon Snow, and Stannis will legitimize him and call him King of the North.  The nights watchmen who assaulted Jon will be dealt with, Stannis will stay at the wall, and Jon, Brienne, and Davos will head to Winterfell to rescue Sansa, take back Winterfell, and rally the North to his cause. Particularly the Mormonts.... who's house sword Jon Snow carries. Remember early on at Castle Black when Stannis talks to Jon about the young female Mormont who refuses to follow anyone accept the King of the North? Well there ya go.... sets things up nicely. *BTW- I don't think Sansa and Reek escape that easily. Ramsey will likely catch them and kill Reek (who's story arc seems to be at an end, Imo). All the more reason for Jon to go to Winterfell - to rescue Sansa who is still being held captive. 

OR....

IF Stannis IS dead, I think his real intent in sending Davos back to the wall (besides keeping him from interfering with Shireens sacrifice), was to deliver his final Will & Testament. Should he perish in battle.... he has no other heirs. He sees great honor and potential in Jon Snow. I think he would plan ahead and legitimize Jon Snow and name him his successor as King of the North. Which would explain why it was SO important for Davos to personally deliver Stannis message to Castle Black instead of an errand boy. And so on.

Though I've read every related book 4 times over.... I'm basing my thoughts only on the show, since they've swayed from the books quite a bit.

[Kris Brass]

4 hours ago, SusieSnow said:

Just some thoughts....

I think it may be possible that Brienne spares Stannis life. I don't think his part to play is over yet. At this point, Briennes duty is to save Sansa - not avenge Renly.... and I can't help but feel like she may enlist Stannis help in trying to do so.  Technically, he's the current rightful King and he would be of more benefit to Brienne alive. After all, why would they waste valuable screen time sending Stannis and Davos to Braavos to get a ton of gold for nothing??? What's gunna happen with all that gold and all those ships, etc???

Also, the foundation has already been laid in prior shows for Stannis to legitimize Jon Snow. I suspect Brienne will bring Stannis back to the wall, where Melisandre will resurrect Jon Snow, and Stannis will legitimize him and call him King of the North.  The nights watchmen who assaulted Jon will be dealt with, Stannis will stay at the wall, and Jon, Brienne, and Davos will head to Winterfell to rescue Sansa, take back Winterfell, and rally the North to his cause. Particularly the Mormonts.... who's house sword Jon Snow carries. Remember early on at Castle Black when Stannis talks to Jon about the young female Mormont who refuses to follow anyone accept the King of the North? Well there ya go.... sets things up nicely. *BTW- I don't think Sansa and Reek escape that easily. Ramsey will likely catch them and kill Reek (who's story arc seems to be at an end, Imo). All the more reason for Jon to go to Winterfell - to rescue Sansa who is still being held captive. 

OR....

IF Stannis IS dead, I think his real intent in sending Davos back to the wall (besides keeping him from interfering with Shireens sacrifice), was to deliver his final Will & Testament. Should he perish in battle.... he has no other heirs. He sees great honor and potential in Jon Snow. I think he would plan ahead and legitimize Jon Snow and name him his successor as King of the North. Which would explain why it was SO important for Davos to personally deliver Stannis message to Castle Black instead of an errand boy. And so on.

Though I've read every related book 4 times over.... I'm basing my thoughts only on the show, since they've swayed from the books quite a bit.

Or Jon & Stannis are truly dead and none of that happens.

[Lord Friendzone]

10 hours ago, Kris Brass said:

Or Jon & Stannis are truly dead and none of that happens.

Jon will be alive, Stannis not so much or at least from what we know.