Sansa/Sandor?

[Dany Can Do No Wrong]

Why do people ship Sansa and Sandor when it's clearly not an healthy relationship especially when it comes to Sansa? I personally find it really disgusting.

[Mladen]

It is not the problem whether it is disgusting or not, it is the issue that it is there. Martin obviously played with "Beauty and the Beast" and now, all we can do is wait and see the results of that.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Take it up with GRRM, he was the one that put it in his book. 

[Scootaloo Stark]

They ship it because there already are romantic undertones. And people ship everything.

I prefer Arya/Sandor, but maybe just because I dislike Sansa.

[Joan Jett]

it's a solid pairing, lots of evidence

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think OP should first explain us why s/he find the relationship "disgusting". Why is it? The fact he's older? Ugly? Scarred? Has the temper of real nasty dog sometimes? :dunno: I've seen marriages work with less chances than that.

 

GRRM loves BatB stories. He was even writer for the 80s show (not the joke we have now). He is writing also Jaime/Brienne as one of those.

 

The symbolism of BatB has a lot of undertones, but the most common is the eroticism of the anxiety about finding sexuality in ourselves. In this case, the innocent maiden who feels her first sexual emotions about a man. One of the interpretations of the tale is that is meant to be a parable for young women who were sent to marry to someone they didn't know: the unknown beast who is full with lusty wishes is meant to turn into a handsome kind gentleman that is also able to love with time. This is something we also see between Dany and Drogo, btw.

 

Sansa's concepts of sex is abstract and childish: "oh, I want to marry the prince and have his babies!". While she also has a few basic sexual desires (she wants to caress Loras' soft skin), it's all rainbows and puppies for her ("I thought menstruation would be magical!"). We, as adults, know that sex can be messy and dirty and not less pleasant because of that.

 

The fact Sandor beats Loras means that aspect of Sansa's sexual awakening. It's not coincidence  that Sansa hearing his story happens in this very same chapter. It's the same chapter in which Joffrey behaves like a charming Prince and Loras gives Sansa a rose she thinks is special. It's also the chapter when LF touches her for the very first time and she feels uncomfortable about it. Also, we later discover Joffrey is really a monster and Loras is not even interested in women. But the Hound is rough. The other three men behave like Sansa expect men to behave while the Hound says "if you speak, I'll kill you", which translates as "I've shared something intimate of me with you, and it's our secret". This doesn't make her feel uncomfortable. It doesn't even make her feel pity. She is kind towards her: the Hound is representing raw basic male sexuality and Sansa is on her way to accept this instead of the illusion of what a perfect "knight" is.

 

After that, every situation between them is sexual and she wants it to be that way.

[Jacques the Japer]

Ignoring the fact that Sandor may well be dead, a romance between them would be . ..odd, I mean Sandor isn't monster like his brother, but he's no "little bird" as he likes to call her, aren't we talking about  a guy who takes immense pride in being a self confessed killer?

 

And Sansa, whilst far more mature and grey now, is still fighting the giant in the castle made of snow and all that- I don't see the narrative space for GRRM to bring him back

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

it's a solid pairing, lots of evidence

 

I worry about you, Joan Jett.

 

Just what in your mind makes that pairing "solid" ?

 

He's a vicious killer and she's an innocent virgin.

 

Hmm, I just don't see it...

[Joan Jett]

 
I worry about you, Joan Jett.
 
Just what in your mind makes that pairing "solid" ?
 
He's a vicious killer and she's an innocent virgin.
 
Hmm, I just don't see it...

its solid(as in credible) because it's suggested in the text

I never said it was ok

[Orphalesion]

The relationship would likely be unhealthy because Sandor has 1) Anger issues 2) Idealizes Sansa as this pure, innocent paragon of maidenhood. I'd even say there's a bit of the Madonna/Whore complex going on. He is not interested in Sansa, but in what she represents.

And to anybody who thinks that the love of a woman can "redeem" or "heal" the damaged, brooding loner; read Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff and Isabella are the perfect deconstruction of that idea.

 

Sansa herself...well at the time of SoS (which was the last time they interacted) she was simply not mature enough to enter any sort of relationship and the jury's still out whether or not she is mature enough to enter a proper relationship in WoW. We'll see.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You don't read much erotica, don't you? You should.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

its solid(as in credible) because it's suggested in the text

I never said it was ok

 

There are lots of things suggested in the texts, Joan.

 

But the San/San thing has many followers/fans, including you apparently.

 

I just don't get it.

[Joan Jett]

 
There are lots of things suggested in the texts, Joan.
 
But the San/San thing has many followers/fans, including you apparently.
 
I just don't get it.

I'm not a Sansan shipper, I just noticed clues when I was reading. You don't have to agree.

[Orphalesion]

I'm not a Sansan shipper, I just noticed clues when I was reading. You don't have to agree.

 

Sandor clearly wants into Sansa's small clothes and I'm fairly certain that he would have ended up doing something to her if she had gone with him.

 

Sansa, by that time, was messed up enough to develop a big old case of Stockholm Syndrom to anybody who showed her any sort of support or kindness, which Sandor certainly did at various points (such as saving her from being raped)

 

There are definitely undertones.

[Rider on the Storm]

I think OP should first explain us why s/he find the relationship "disgusting". Why is it? The fact he's older? Ugly? Scarred? Has the temper of real nasty dog sometimes? :dunno: I've seen marriages work with less chances than that.

 

GRRM loves BatB stories. He was even writer for the 80s show (not the joke we have now). He is writing also Jaime/Brienne as one of those.

 

The symbolism of BatB has a lot of undertones, but the most common is the eroticism of the anxiety about finding sexuality in ourselves. In this case, the innocent maiden who feels her first sexual emotions about a man. One of the interpretations of the tale is that is meant to be a parable for young women who were sent to marry to someone they didn't know: the unknown beast who is full with lusty wishes is meant to turn into a handsome kind gentleman that is also able to love with time. This is something we also see between Dany and Drogo, btw.

 

Sansa's concepts of sex is abstract and childish: "oh, I want to marry the prince and have his babies!". While she also has a few basic sexual desires (she wants to caress Loras' soft skin), it's all rainbows and puppies for her ("I thought menstruation would be magical!"). We, as adults, know that sex can be messy and dirty and not less pleasant because of that.

 

The fact Sandor beats Loras means that aspect of Sansa's sexual awakening. It's not coincidence  that Sansa hearing his story happens in this very same chapter. It's the same chapter in which Joffrey behaves like a charming Prince and Loras gives Sansa a rose she thinks is special. It's also the chapter when LF touches her for the very first time and she feels uncomfortable about it. Also, we later discover Joffrey is really a monster and Loras is not even interested in women. But the Hound is rough. The other three men behave like Sansa expect men to behave while the Hound says "if you speak, I'll kill you", which translates as "I've shared something intimate of me with you, and it's our secret". This doesn't make her feel uncomfortable. It doesn't even make her feel pity. She is kind towards her: the Hound is representing raw basic male sexuality and Sansa is on her way to accept this instead of the illusion of what a perfect "knight" is.

 

After that, every situation between them is sexual and she wants it to be that way.

Good one.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I'm not a Sansan shipper, I just noticed clues when I was reading. You don't have to agree.

 

It's not a matter of agreement.  It's a matter of perspective.

 

I saw what you saw.  Sansa saw strength in Sandor and Sandor saw innocence in Sansa.

 

Plus, The Hound was never keen on the abuse that Joff inflicted onto her.

 

Still, he is not remotely good enough for her.  Even in Martin's twisted world.

[Rider on the Storm]

Still, he is not remotely good enough for her.  Even in Martin's twisted world.

Okay, Sandor is not the perfect man, but we've seen much worse and he showed more than once that deep inside that angry, violent and traumatized man there is a good guy. How can people not see it? He's afraid to show his best side because makes him fragile, while if he's the bad scary Hound nothing can harm him.

[Orphalesion]

 

I actually found her infatuation with him to be the more physical one. She's constantly thinking back to the UnKiss during sexual(ish) situations. Sandor, on the other hand, seems obsessed not with Sansa as a sexual being, but as an idealized image of her as something innocent and pure that's missing from his own soul.

 

Definitely agree that Sandor puts her on a pedestral. i don't say he would have jumped her the moment they get out of the city, but after months of travelling around alone. I think it would have ended up being a Dany/Drogo situation. Which was also all kinds of wrong.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Okay, Sandor is not the perfect man, but we've seen much worse and he showed more than once that deep inside that angry, violent and traumatized man there is a good guy. How can people not see it? He's afraid to show his best side because makes him fragile, while if he's the bad scary Hound nothing can harm him.

 

Another San/San shipper, I'm guessing...

 

I am afraid that The Hound cannot be sufficiently described as a "less than perfect" male.

 

Every male is less than perfect.  Same for every female.

 

Sandor is a cold blooded killer.

 

His own morality is very different than the mainstream.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is little problem for me that Sansa is a virgin. I'll quote myself from another thread (about the show, but whatever):

 

The Hound represents Sansa's more basic and raw sexual desires: pure rough masculinity. That's why, in the books, her virginity and innocence is important. Not because that makes her a bargain chip for LF (within the plot, it is, but I mean in the narrative and development of her character), but because she's not letting others to mess with that. That's something that belongs to her only: her lusting for a man that is very different from what she has been taught about sexuality.

Is she going to have sex with the Hound? My first guess would be yes. And if she doesn't, she will have a first real sexual encounter with him, one she wants to have, whether is a kiss or something else. They might end up together or not, but that encounter will happen, I'm sure of that.

The problem with writing virgins is that the trope of the terrified virgin is wrongly overused. A timid virgin is not the same as a scared girl. In the mere aspect of sexual symbolism, male sexuality is often the "aggressive" (but not necessarily violent) part, being the penetrative while the female side is the receptive, both figurative and literally. Nevertheless, that shouldn't imply that the female side is a victim or she's been violated. Being nervous is ok: it's natural and even expected. And considering mostly romance is written with a female target in mind, there is something appealing about the anxiety of the first sexual encounter. Being frightened, otoh, is not ok. When written right, it can be described as an equal experience with both parts giving and both parts receiving, even if one of them is inexperienced. When written bad, we end up having the male as a predator while the female has been pretty much forced into it.

So, the Hound will symbolise for Sansa the loss of her virginity but in not such a literal way. This is a man she would willingly want to give herself to. And the fact he's not like the knights of her tales means she has accepted sexuality as something that is not rainbows and puppies but rough, messy, real.