Why Did LF marry sansa off to Ramsay?

[Chebyshov]

It doesn't really matter to LF who wins, Stannis or Bolton. He has a plan either way. He says he's betting on Stannis winning, but that doesn't mean he's putting all his chips on it. 

The point about him and his relationship with Sansa is he's got her thinking that they are both in it together, that hes groomed her into a political mastermind who can win Ramsey round. She doesn't seem particularly upset with LF for any of this because partly she went along with it and seemed to think it was something she could achieve. 

So basically, Stannis wins, LF comes back gives Sansa to Stannis so he can make her wardeness of the north, he looks good, can control her too.. hes winning. (btw, her maidenhood is pretty irrelevant when shes a Stark, thats the important bit) 

Boltons win, hes still in good with the Boltons, still in good with Sansa, if Sansa manages to get Ramsey to do what she wants then hes winning too. 

The Lannisters are a finished prospect as far as LF seems to be concerned, its clear the Tyrells are the upcoming power, so now hes in good with the Tyrells too, despite Lady O not really liking him, she sees his utility. 

So his plan has basically left him in a position where he's covering all of his bases, with no one powerful faction wanting to wipe him out. Doesn't seem so stupid.

Absolutely none of what you said justifies A. sending Sansa there before the battle takes place, and B. how marrying her to an enemy gets revenge or any sort of power for either them. Oh good, he's now "in good" with Roose? How helpful for him. And again, even if Sansa had "made Ramsay hers," that means...exerting power through the Bolton name, legitimizing their claim, and essentially handing them the North. 

As for needing to make Sansa feel as if they're "both in it together," he's harboring her as a fucking fugitive already, and we see that she is (now as of S5, and randomly, in one of those fun, famous D&D character 180s) unquestioningly trustful of him. 

We're also ignoring LF's lack of basic background research before sending a raven to Roose that said "hey, let's commit treason together." There's a fucking trail of flayed bodies leading up to WF.

If the Lannisters are "finished as a prospect" then why did LF bother telling Cersei anything that's happening in the North. He was already "in good" with the Tyrells for helping them murder Joff, again didn't need to change anything (and somehow the "upcoming power" can't do jack shit when their heir is thrown in jail for being gay, and their queen is thrown in jail for a perjury trap. Seriously, Mace is looking like the genius of that family at this point).

LF introduced a bunch of unnecessary risks and obstacles in his own plan, just for funsies. If that seems smart to you, you truly have not been paying attention. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

snip.. because I can't work out how to do quoting any more!

The timing is odd I'll grant you and has more than a whiff of producers having to get it in at that point to make it fit with other storylines, it would have been better to wait but potentially he was under time constraits and had to rush things. I can't answer that. 

As for revenge. Sansa might want revenge but its probably not an issue for LF. Nor do I think he gives a damn about Sansa, other than as his tool. Her desires don't count and he's only convincing her that she is making a difference so that she will do what he wants.
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Yes she will be legitimising the Bolton Claim, but if she is in control of Ramsey, as she seems to think she will be, then it won't matter. Its a sacrifice she seems to be willing to make.
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I don't think she trusts LF either, but again, its a 'better the devil she knows' option, shes going along with it because she can't see another option and seems to have convinced herself she is strong enough to deal with it and turn it to her own advantage  (shes wrong)
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As for LF's raven.. pointless getting upset about a raven who's message we didn't read. As if hes just going to write 'lets commit treason' , and not be a lot more subtle about it.

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Clearly the Lannisters aren't totally crippled, but most people can see Cercei is useless, but she can still be dangerous. So he went there, told her about Sansa, blamed it all on Roose (she would have found out eventually anyway, so he got in early). She doesn't know he was behind it, and she might not find out for a long time, till its too late. 

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I've had the argument about the Tyrells being 'powerless' to stop their family being arrested, but again, the Faith Militant have the backing of the people, you can't just go in there and fight them without pissing a lot of people off. Anyway, it seems next season something is happening on that front.

[Mandzipop]

 

LF already has Cersei's trust short term (he's the fucking Lord of the Eyrie). Who wins is not down to Littlefinger...it's down to military prowess. As a "betting man" he said he'd put his money on Stannis so...why interfere before the battle, when both sides are at full strength? 

Secondly, he wants to get rid of the Lannisters long term. He's clearly pro-Sansa, and won't deliver her head on a spike. He knows the Lannisters have no army to send North to deal with any conflict (which he points out to Cersei in their meeting in 5x06). So, even if the Boltons win, which he doesn't think they will (unless he's randomly lying to Sansa...chaos is a laddah bruh), he could sweep them out and Cersei couldn't do jack shit. As it is now, that's what he's going to do, and he's clearly not going to give Cersei Sansa's head, so getting Cersei's "approval" actually does nothing. At all. 

He literally said he was going to wait til after the battle to do anything at all, so he's not "backing" any side. If Stannis wins, LF could then reveal Sansa to him and she is the logical choice for Warden of the North (and of course because she got stupid and randomly began trusting him without question in between 4x10 and 5x01, he'd have lots of control). If the Boltons win, Sansa marrying into them is not revenge and it doesn't do anything at all other than solidify their claim. This doesn't help him, or Sansa in the slightest. If the Boltons win, LF would need to outright oust them, as he's planning on doing.

Even if Ramsay is a super sweet pooh bear, all Sansa marrying them would do is give the Boltons legitimacy in their rule, and lots of Bolton heirs. 

I mean...revenge. Empowerment.

And this goes back to the fact that he stuck her in the middle of a place that was about to fall under siege and had her marry her enemies. So like...he threw her there, just so he could rescue her? Brilliant plan.

The whole marriage pact was made on the premise that "Cersei has no power in the North." Like if Roose fucking Bolton who needs his "certain assurances" is ready to just BLOW UP his alliance with the Lannisters, that's pretty telling. Again, LF already knows Cersei has no forces to send North and can't really bother.

But...now LF is so paranoid about Cersei getting suspicious if he doesn't return her calls? He literally sent a raven to the dude that stabbed Robb Stark in the chest for Tywin Lannister, telling him he had Fugitive #1, just because he was so sure that the Lannisters wouldn't find out.

Like, look, hats off to you for a really well thought-out post. But this plan was offensively stupid and illogical on every single level. AND we're ignoring how it made absolutely no sense for Roose, and (of course) Sansa to agree to it.

It just makes NO sense, on a very fundamental level. Don't bother working it out when D&D clearly didn't.

ETA:

OH and btw, this also DESTROYS her marriage prospects moving forward. Like...her maidenhood is rather an important selling point, and LF just kind of ruined his ability to use her in match that is actually politically advantageous. 

We don't know what LF's endgame is. We can only guess. The only people who know what TV LF's plan is, is David and Dan. George might know as it might be ultimately the same. Part of the fun of LF's character is trying to work out he is up to. He's up to something and it makes perfect sense to the character even though not to the audience. The fun it trying to work him out. He knows his intentions, we don't. I also don't believe hardly anything he says.

[Wavey Sauce]

When LF last met with Cersei she agreed to make him Warden of the North, once he cleans up the Boltons. (stabs them in the back with his vale army) Plans to make Sansa his bride and be the legit warden of the north,.

 

will be sad to know Sansa is gone and will hate him for leaving her with a crazy rapist............and when he finds out the Stark boys are alive.......rut roe

 

 

Keep in mind everyone that Roose would not have took Sansa and risked all that if Tywin was still alive

[Le Cygne]

The showrunners know the ending. LF knows what he's up to.

They'll explain it in an Outside the Episode. He'll say "I meant to do that" like Pee Wee Herman.

But that's not a story.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The only reason for littlefinger to pimp sansa out is to get rid of her and try and get something out of it. She had him at a disadvantage when they were both in the vale because she lied to save him. She became a threat. That and the fact that D&D obviously wanted sansa to experience what she did. Repeatedly.

[Woman of War]

The only reason for littlefinger to pimp sansa out is to get rid of her and try and get something out of it. She had him at a disadvantage when they were both in the vale because she lied to save him. She became a threat. That and the fact that D&D obviously wanted sansa to experience what she did. Repeatedly.

i agree with the first part: Sansa is dangerous to Baelish now, he knows how dangerous while she has not yet realized. Sansa, neither in books nor in series, is aware of any antagonistic goals between herself and LF. And before she realizes the advantage she has on him he has to get rid of her.

I am sure that in the books Sansa will experience similiar horror as she does in the series and  the show has only sped up her story. It may not be Ramsay but Harry or anyone but some very ugly experience is waiting for her, I'm sure.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I am sure that in the books Sansa will experience similiar horror as she does in the series and  the show has only sped up her story. It may not be Ramsay but Harry or anyone but some very ugly experience is waiting for her, I'm sure.

I'm totally in this camp. Whatever happens LF in show and books obviously doesn't have Sansa's best interests at heart, and is actually purely selfishly.Her marriage to Harry is for his own gain, and I'm of the opinion that it will not be all sweetness and light.

The perception that Sansa has been through a lot of bad things and so deserves something nice to happen to her is wishful thinking, I don't think shes there yet, or ever.  

[A Ghost of Someone]

I'm totally in this camp. Whatever happens LF in show and books obviously doesn't have Sansa's best interests at heart, and is actually purely selfishly.Her marriage to Harry is for his own gain, and I'm of the opinion that it will not be all sweetness and light.

The perception that Sansa has been through a lot of bad things and so deserves something nice to happen to her is wishful thinking, I don't think shes there yet, or ever.  

So, do you think in the books the prospective marriage between "Alayne"/Sansa and Harrold "Harry the Heir" Hardying is actually going to to happen? Maybe, but I have a feeling where the sample chapter left off, all hell is going to break loose in the Vale. However, to deny Sansa at minimal, being under more duress, sexually in the books would be folly. This girl is in for more turmoil. Hopefully, not like she experienced with Ramsay Bolton.

[sweetsunray]

What did LF gain from this? Why not keep Sansa close by.

Warning - post contains book references.

Personally I think D&D tried to conflate the fArya-Ramsay plot with the book Sansa-Harry plot. The tourney chapter from Sansa's pov in aGoT and the snow-castle building scene in aSoS, heavily foreshadows that the whole Vale arc will end in disaster (think cataclystic), and therefore LF's plans for Sansa in the Vale are actually a complete moot point. It should actually be a tremendous read though, with LF and Sansa teaming up and almost able to taste their dreams coming true, only to have them literally come crashing down like a rollercoaster before they can actually have any impact beyond the Gates of the Moon.

Because of limitations with episodes and seasons left, they decided to drop that part of the Vale arc, and transfer it to the actual WF instead, where fArya escapes Ramsay, and the Bolton-fArya marriage plot ends up in shambles as well. While it makes sense from a point of view to be economical with episodes and screening time, it makes no sense whatsoever for the in-world. Harry's not a sadistic Ramsay for one (though Sansa may fall in the "wrong" hands because of the Vale disaster). In fact, despite his behaviour in the sample chapter of aWoW, the foreshadowing in aGoT regarding him, actually predicts a positive romantic experience for Sansa for once. It's just that he'll end up dead before they get to marry. The Boltons marrying a wanted-murderess by the crown is completely illogical. Nor would LF risk revealing Sansa publically as being Sansa before Cersei has fallen, let alone have her distanced physically from his direct influence.

[TheButcherCrow]

Good points made above by sweetsunray.  I think one of the major issues (for readers anyway) is the dissonance that occurs when trying to reconcile the actions of LF in the show to the character we know from the books.  They are two very distinctly different people.  Book-LF is a calculating sociopath with a long game and a plan.  Show-LF on the other hand is a grabby opportunist who is making it up as he goes along.  Once you accept that, show-LF's dumbass moves seem more believable.   The Bolton's reasons for the marriage (on the show) are pretty simple though, winter is coming.  Winter is coming and they are about to be stuck in the north with a bunch of northmen who have called no other family but Stark "lord" for thousands of years.  If they wheel out "Ned's daughter" that would go a long way to alleviate some of the domestic(northern) political pressure the boltons may be under.  Cersei can't touch them till at least the spring and since Tywin's death, I think Roose can smell which way the wind is blowing in KL.

[Maid So Fair]

We don't know what LF's endgame is. We can only guess. The only people who know what TV LF's plan is, is David and Dan. George might know as it might be ultimately the same. Part of the fun of LF's character is trying to work out he is up to. He's up to something and it makes perfect sense to the character even though not to the audience. The fun it trying to work him out. He knows his intentions, we don't. I also don't believe hardly anything he says.

Well, first of all I'd definitely say that the more accurate assessment is that Goerge knows while D&D might .

But as for LF, I don't think it's accurate to say we don't know what LF's endgame is. Sure, we don't know exactly how far his ambition extends and how high he's willing to reach (as high as possible?), or what milestones he plans to hit on the way, but there is no doubting that he is ambitious. He wants it all - riches, honours, titles, influence. He wants the girl. Above all, he wants power for himself.

Every single thing LF has done has had self-interest written all over it. The one move he tries to sell as chaos for the sake of chaos, helping murder Joffrey, brings him very concrete benefits - having milked the Lannisters for all they were worth with Harrenhal, he gains influence with the up and coming Tyrells, and he gets Sansa who is an important pawn in his plans if nothing else. He also creates a situation where the more powerful will be too busy squabbling between themselves to pay much attention to his machinations in the Vale. There's a clear benefit to himself. What Showfinger does in S5 is the equivalent of LF telling Cersei about the Joff murder plot in advance for shits and giggles.

Most importantly, LF knows his intentions even if we don't. His actions should follow some logical pattern that brings him closer to this goal. Instead, he sabotages him own plans for absolutely no reason. You could make the case for him choosing the Lannisters/Tyrells/Stannis but not choosing all and neither as that is a lose-lose situation for him. 

 

As for revenge. Sansa might want revenge but its probably not an issue for LF. Nor do I think he gives a damn about Sansa, other than as his tool. Her desires don't count and he's only convincing her that she is making a difference so that she will do what he wants.

You don't have to be an animal lover not to shoot your own horse. Whether he cares for Sansa on a personal level or not (and it's highly debatable), she's an important political pawn and a centrepiece of his plans for now. Keeping her away from obvious harm is just basic common sense, as is not putting her in compromising situations if your plan relies on her doing your bidding. 

If the goal is to control the North through Sansa, giving her to the Boltons makes no sense. Instead of having to manipulate and control one person (Sansa), it introduces two further steps - for Sansa then to control and manipulate Ramsay, a completely unknown entity, and - get rid of Roose? Because there's no way in hell that any reasonable person would expect for Ramsay to be able to control Roose. And of course, even if Ramsay wasn't a complete psychopath (which LF is in a better position to notice than pretty much anybody), marrying into the family that slaughtered her brother and mother is hardly going to be a pleasant experience for Sansa, with the most logical outcome being her loss of faith in LF and his plans and therefore willingness to play along, which is the cornerstone of the whole plan. It makes no sense. 

The new quoting system is driving me mad. 

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, that's the problem. It's not that the actions of the show characters don't make sense for the book characters, it's that they don't make sense at all. It's a bizarre world where nothing has to make sense, and then at some point, the showrunners and characters will "explain" retroactively (in an outside the episode, and by saying so, as if that means anything).

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

So, do you think in the books the prospective marriage between "Alayne"/Sansa and Harrold "Harry the Heir" Hardying is actually going to to happen? Maybe, but I have a feeling where the sample chapter left off, all hell is going to break loose in the Vale. However, to deny Sansa at minimal, being under more duress, sexually in the books would be folly. This girl is in for more turmoil. Hopefully, not like she experienced with Ramsay Bolton.

I don't know what will happen with Harry, but I have a feeling that he's not all that he seems either and it will all turn out rather badly, he has those two bastards, which suggests he's been around the block at least.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I don't know what will happen with Harry, but I have a feeling that he's not all that he seems either and it will all turn out rather badly, he has those two bastards, which suggests he's been around the block at least.

My feeling is that if there is a potential sexual assault by him, as he thinks she is a bastard and not high born, he has contempt for littlefinger, he may try and take her out of lust if he can get her alone or something like that. I would hate it but he seems like a real jerk, not evil like Ramsay but nothing good would come out of such a potential relationship.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Yeah, that's the problem. It's not that the actions of the show characters don't make sense for the book characters, it's that they don't make sense at all. It's a bizarre world where nothing has to make sense, and then at some point, the showrunners and characters will "explain" retroactively (in an outside the episode, and by saying so, as if that means anything).

Most of the time in the "outside the episode" or other comments, the actors and show runners/directors completely contradict what was viewed in the actual episode. It is maddening.

[A Ghost of Someone]

As I brought up before, Sansa trusting littlefinger to the degree she does on the show, Everyone knows Roose Bolton is the actual one who stabbed Robb through the heart etc, including Sansa, yet, she does not know that it was Littlefinger who put a dagger to her own father's throat and sold the Gold Cloaks to Cersie which led to her father's death and hundreds of men who she grew up being protected by? How could she not know?  Cat seemed to know Littlefinger betrayed Ned when they met at Renly's camp, did she not?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

My feeling is that if there is a potential sexual assault by him, as he thinks she is a bastard and not high born, he has contempt for littlefinger, he may try and take her out of lust if he can get her alone or something like that. I would hate it but he seems like a real jerk, not evil like Ramsay but nothing good would come out of such a potential relationship.

If GRRM has already written that, he might be considering changing it in the face of finding out how all the Sansa fans react to the at sort of thing. 

Sansa trusting littlefinger to the degree she does on the show

I don't think Sansa does trust him, she's well aware of his nature, but she has very little choice and is probably assuming that he isn't actively trying to hurt her, which is the best she can hope for at this stage.

[A Ghost of Someone]

If GRRM has already written that, he might be considering changing it in the face of finding out how all the Sansa fans react to the at sort of thing. 

Sansa trusting littlefinger to the degree she does on the show

I don't think Sansa does trust him, she's well aware of his nature, but she has very little choice and is probably assuming that he isn't actively trying to hurt her, which is the best she can hope for at this stage.

GRRM can go wherever he likes with Sansa's character, she is his creation. On the show, they put her into another character's situation and that is what has to be reckoned with on the show. The only think logical for Littlefinger/showfinger's perspective is to simply get rid of someone who was a threat and who was sort of "blackmailing him" which is something he cannot abide by. Even if it is Sansa, so he decided to mitigate his potential damages, bargain/gamble the situation and try and make something out of it so he did what he did. Not trying to help the show out but from a creative perspective, that, at this point should be the reason Littlefinger did what he did.

[TheCasualObserver]

GRRM can go wherever he likes with Sansa's character, she is his creation. On the show, they put her into another character's situation and that is what has to be reckoned with on the show. The only think logical for Littlefinger/showfinger's perspective is to simply get rid of someone who was a threat and who was sort of "blackmailing him" which is something he cannot abide by. Even if it is Sansa, so he decided to mitigate his potential damages, bargain/gamble the situation and try and make something out of it so he did what he did. Not trying to help the show out but from a creative perspective, that, at this point should be the reason Littlefinger did what he did.

Even if LF thinks Sansa could become a threat, it doesn't follow that he would place her in a location he doesn't control. Ramsay's personality be damned, LF isn't going to nuetralize the threat of Sansa talking by giving her to somebody else - he'll either kill her or place her somewhere that he has complete control over. Like, let's say... the Eyrie? Where they were at the start of the season?

 

Good points made above by sweetsunray.  I think one of the major issues (for readers anyway) is the dissonance that occurs when trying to reconcile the actions of LF in the show to the character we know from the books.  They are two very distinctly different people.  Book-LF is a calculating sociopath with a long game and a plan.  Show-LF on the other hand is a grabby opportunist who is making it up as he goes along.  Once you accept that, show-LF's dumbass moves seem more believable.   The Bolton's reasons for the marriage (on the show) are pretty simple though, winter is coming.  Winter is coming and they are about to be stuck in the north with a bunch of northmen who have called no other family but Stark "lord" for thousands of years.  If they wheel out "Ned's daughter" that would go a long way to alleviate some of the domestic(northern) political pressure the boltons may be under.  Cersei can't touch them till at least the spring and since Tywin's death, I think Roose can smell which way the wind is blowing in KL.

ShowLF's attitude as a grabby opportunist still doesn't explain why he gave Sansa to the Boltons when he did. The opportunity would strike after either Stannis or the Boltons were defeated, not before.

 "If they wheel out "Ned's daughter" that would go a long way to alleviate some of the domestic(northern) political pressure the boltons may be under."

It might well rid them of that pressure. It's just too bad they never bothered to do that with the single greatest threat in a thousand miles (in the form of Stannis) bearing down on them throughout season 5. They had the opportunity to use Sansa as a rallying point and they totally cocked it up.

LF's attitude isn't really important here because he acts in ways counter to his own interests in Winterfell. His actions in the south make his actions in the North largely pointless.