Septa Lemore Identity/Wording of Robert's Rebellion

[SerLinginBerry]

Didn't feel like starting 2 threads for such thin posts, but I recently had a couple small thoughts about the titular topics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is a theory that states Ashara Dayne is masquerading as Septa Lemore. Came across an article about little known religious beliefs or some such thing, and one of them happens to be that some people believe God had a wife and her name was Ashehra...just going by my own pronunciation that sounds pretty similar to Ashara, which, if the theory is accurate, is a pretty crafty way to hint at Septa Lemore's, or any Septa's, identity...brides of gods being a pretty streamlined description of a Septa.

Second thought (completely unrelated): in history, I think Rebellions have typically been movements that wound up failing. "Robert's Rebellion" succeeded, so should it not have been "Robert's Revolution"? The Greyjoy uprising failed: labeled as rebellion. Early in US history, there was a farmer uprising that was squashed: labeled as Shay's rebellion. Could Martin have been indicating from the beginning that Robert's reign was an unmitigated failure?

Typing on shitty phone, sorry for choppy sentences.

Thoughts?

[Hammermen's Revolt]

Interesting theory the second one, but I doubt it. Rebellions and revolutions seem to me to differ in ideology: rebellions arise from "we won't take X anymore" while revolutions ariseb as "We won't take X, so let's replace it for Y".

[Scootaloo Stark]

Wikipedia defines rebellion as "a refusal of obedience or order". Success or failure doesn't matter.

Revolution is defined as "a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time".

 

Robert just became king, Baratheon replaced Targaryen, but the system didn't change at all. Westeros is still pretty much the same.

It would be a revolution to change from monachy to aristocracy or democracy, not to change from king to other king.

 

So I think the term "rebellion" is pretty accurate.

"Revolution" also sounds too much like the Industrial, French, or other modern revolutions in my opinion.

[Annara Snow]

There is no difference between rebellions and revolutions in terms opf success, both can be successful or unsuccessful. The difference is that rebellion is just armed resistance against a ruler or government, but revolution has a more ideological connotation and involves an attempt to change the political system. RR was not a revolution.

But it does, however, have an inaccurate name. It should be called Jon's Rebellion. Jon Arryn was the one who rebelled and started it.

[Isobel Harper]

Didn't feel like starting 2 threads for such thin posts, but I recently had a couple small thoughts about the titular topics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is a theory that states Ashara Dayne is masquerading as Septa Lemore. Came across an article about little known religious beliefs or some such thing, and one of them happens to be that some people believe God had a wife and her name was Ashehra...just going by my own pronunciation that sounds pretty similar to Ashara, which, if the theory is accurate, is a pretty crafty way to hint at Septa Lemore's, or any Septa's, identity...brides of gods being a pretty streamlined description of a Septa.

Second thought (completely unrelated): in history, I think Rebellions have typically been movements that wound up failing. "Robert's Rebellion" succeeded, so should it not have been "Robert's Revolution"? The Greyjoy uprising failed: labeled as rebellion. Early in US history, there was a farmer uprising that was squashed: labeled as Shay's rebellion. Could Martin have been indicating from the beginning that Robert's reign was an unmitigated failure?

Typing on shitty phone, sorry for choppy sentences.

Thoughts?

 

I believe Lemore is Lemore, someone of significance that hasn't been mentioned elsewhere yet.  Perhaps a Dayne or a Hightower.  I have a pet theory that GRRM hinted that she was a Dayne via Septa Mordane - Lemore + Mordane = Lemore Dayne. 

 

Side note: JonCon refers to Lemore as "Lady Lemore" but never "Septa Lemore" or "Septa" in any way in both of his ADwD chapters.

 

The only time "septa" is used in his chapters was to describe her clothing in his second chapter:  Lady Lemore was with him [Aegon], garbed once more in the white robes of a septa.  Again, he refers to her as Lady Lemore.

[Lady Sharya]

I believe Lemore is Lemore, someone of significance that hasn't been mentioned elsewhere yet.  Perhaps a Dayne or a Hightower.  I have a pet theory that GRRM hinted that she was a Dayne via Septa Mordane - Lemore + Mordane = Lemore Dayne. 
 
Side note: JonCon refers to Lemore as "Lady Lemore" but never "Septa Lemore" or "Septa" in any way in both of his ADwD chapters.
 
The only time "septa" is used in his chapters was to describe her clothing in his second chapter:  Lady Lemore was with him [Aegon], garbed once more in the white robes of a septa.  Again, he refers to her as Lady Lemore.

That's an interesting observation. That could get tricky with a Dayne caring for the baby Aegon. You'd likely start getting fAegon is Jon's twin threads.;) It is rather convenient that the oh-so-close Blackmonts happen to have a raven/hawk carrying a pink baby thru the air. Could a Blackmont have taken the real Aegon from Varys in KL to Starfall?
There is another name similarity I have never seen mentioned: Belmore-Lemore.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

I believe Lemore is Lemore, someone of significance that hasn't been mentioned elsewhere yet.  Perhaps a Dayne or a Hightower.  I have a pet theory that GRRM hinted that she was a Dayne via Septa Mordane - Lemore + Mordane = Lemore Dayne. 

 

Side note: JonCon refers to Lemore as "Lady Lemore" but never "Septa Lemore" or "Septa" in any way in both of his ADwD chapters.

 

The only time "septa" is used in his chapters was to describe her clothing in his second chapter:  Lady Lemore was with him [Aegon], garbed once more in the white robes of a septa.  Again, he refers to her as Lady Lemore.

 

A few lowborn women are referred as "lady". It's not just a title, is a form of respect. There is a female pirate in Essos they call "Lady Korra".

 

Jon also calls her just "Lemore".

 

"Bring the boy," Griff told Lemore. "See that he's ready."

"As you say," she answered, unhappily.

So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't give Griff's words too much value on this: he seems to believe everybody is beneath him, lords or ladies. Nevertheless, the bold implies Lemore is not someone from his past like Ashara or any other important Lady he could have know. He knew Ashara, he danced with her. I think he would recognise and at least call her that on his own head. Also, considering they both would be pretty much the only survivors of the old Rhaegar's crowd, he would be a bit less cold.

[Lady Sharya]

^^^Except this isn't calling her Lemore. This is the narration and /or his thoughts. It is easy to understand a person not using titles in their own head.;)

Edit: I do note that he doesn't think Septa Lemore.;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Let's see.

 

"Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. "How long should it take to buy three horses?"

 

She shrugged. "My lord, wouldn't it be safer to leave the boy here aboard the boat?"

 

They're alone there. So, no need to pretended courtesies. Yet, is her who calls her "My Lord" while Jon says "seven hells". You don't swear in front of a highborn lady, even if she's one you don't like and is posing as a septa.

 

Then blah, the boy, the Golden Company, Harry is useless, Duck is useless, everybody is useless, but not Myles Toyne nor Rhaegar and "oh, my grief!". (Lemore is probably thinking "oh noes, he's thinking about all of that again, right? I wish I was Lemore so I could tell him to get the fuck over with it...").

 

"I have danced to the fat man's pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us?

 

He does call her Lemore. But maybe is because they've known each other for around ten years, surely. She doesn't call him Griff or Jon, though. Neither does Haldon. It's because they are both "socially" beneath him. More blahs, Haldon is also useless.

 

"Bring the boy," Griff told Lemore. "See that he's ready."

 

No "please", no nothing.

 

Nevertheless...

 

In the same chapter in which Tyrion wakes up after being rescued, this happens:

 

Lemore arrives dressed as some lady. Tyrion notices her and wonder who is she. We are told he has tried to figure out who everybody is: Griff, Young Griff, Ysilla, Yandry, Duck, Lemore...

 

Who he doesn't mention????

 

Next paragraph starts:

 

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

 

"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.

 

Tyrion has wondered about EVERYBODY's identity but Haldon's. Why? :dunno: Why he doesn't question who the f he is? They guy is VERY educated and he simply dropped the Citadel? Haldon served in the GC too. Honestly, Haldon seems to be quite smart and educated: he could have found work in any castle any time. And he said "you know what? Fuck it. I wanna serve in a sellsword company"?

 

Which is even more strange, his words ("What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore") can be taken as they being familiar with each other, but... during a re-read, before reading Tyrion's interruption, I thought "what? is this a flirt???".

 

Calling it: Haldon was a young noble studying in the Citadel and got Lemore, who ever she is, pregnant. They they ran to Essos.

[Akal Colzet]

Tyrion can only make a rough estimation of her age, 10 years older than him at most. Living under harsh conditions doing hard work can make someone seem older than their years. Lemore is Tysha, everyone knows that. :devil:

[Lady Sharya]

Tyrion can only make a rough estimation of her age, 10 years older than him at most. Living under harsh conditions doing hard work can make someone seem older than their years. Lemore is Tysha, everyone knows that. :devil:

Ha, I think he would recognize her though. I think Lemore is a Belmore.

[Annara Snow]

Tyrion can only make a rough estimation of her age, 10 years older than him at most. Living under harsh conditions doing hard work can make someone seem older than their years. Lemore is Tysha, everyone knows that. :devil:

Joking aside, that's not even true. Tyrion is about 25, and he thinks she is in her 40s. That's about 20 years older than him.

(Too old - and not purple-eyed enough - to be Ashara Dayne. But the right age to be Wenda the White Fawn, if she is anyone already mentioned. )

[Isobel Harper]

That's an interesting observation. That could get tricky with a Dayne caring for the baby Aegon. You'd likely start getting fAegon is Jon's twin threads.;) It is rather convenient that the oh-so-close Blackmonts happen to have a raven/hawk carrying a pink baby thru the air. Could a Blackmont have taken the real Aegon from Varys in KL to Starfall?
There is another name similarity I have never seen mentioned: Belmore-Lemore.

Don't get me started on R+L=A... ;)

ETA: I didn't notice that about the Blackmonts' sigil. Interesting find.

[Isobel Harper]

 
A few lowborn women are referred as "lady". It's not just a title, is a form of respect. There is a female pirate in Essos they call "Lady Korra".
 
Jon also calls her just "Lemore".
 

"Bring the boy," Griff told Lemore. "See that he's ready."

"As you say," she answered, unhappily.

So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

 
Honestly, I wouldn't give Griff's words too much value on this: he seems to believe everybody is beneath him, lords or ladies. Nevertheless, the bold implies Lemore is not someone from his past like Ashara or any other important Lady he could have know. He knew Ashara, he danced with her. I think he would recognise and at least call her that on his own head. Also, considering they both would be pretty much the only survivors of the old Rhaegar's crowd, he would be a bit less cold.

I don't think Lemore is Ashara. Just a member of the Dayne family. (Mayhaps.)

[Ygrain]

Tyrion has wondered about EVERYBODY's identity but Haldon's. Why? :dunno: Why he doesn't question who the f he is? They guy is VERY educated and he simply dropped the Citadel? Haldon served in the GC too. Honestly, Haldon seems to be quite smart and educated: he could have found work in any castle any time. And he said "you know what? Fuck it. I wanna serve in a sellsword company"?

 

Which is even more strange, his words ("What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore") can be taken as they being familiar with each other, but... during a re-read, before reading Tyrion's interruption, I thought "what? is this a flirt???".

 

Calling it: Haldon was a young noble studying in the Citadel and got Lemore, who ever she is, pregnant. They they ran to Essos.

 

An interesting observation - one I do not recall mentioned before.

[Ice Turtle]

An interesting observation - one I do not recall mentioned before.

 

One point against this is that he never tried to break Tyrion's nose for ogling and flirting with her and there is no chance he did not notice it during the voyage.

[Lady Sharya]

One point against this is that he never tried to break Tyrion's nose for ogling and flirting with her and there is no chance he did not notice it during the voyage.

Well at that point Tyrion doesn't have a nose.:lol:
Sorry...couldn't resist.:)

[Ice Turtle]

Well at that point Tyrion doesn't have a nose. :lol:
Sorry...couldn't resist. :)

 

LOL don't be sorry at all if it's true.

[Ser Knute]

 

Let's see.

 

"Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. "How long should it take to buy three horses?"

 

She shrugged. "My lord, wouldn't it be safer to leave the boy here aboard the boat?"

 

They're alone there. So, no need to pretended courtesies. Yet, is her who calls her "My Lord" while Jon says "seven hells". You don't swear in front of a highborn lady, even if she's one you don't like and is posing as a septa.

 

Then blah, the boy, the Golden Company, Harry is useless, Duck is useless, everybody is useless, but not Myles Toyne nor Rhaegar and "oh, my grief!". (Lemore is probably thinking "oh noes, he's thinking about all of that again, right? I wish I was Lemore so I could tell him to get the fuck over with it...").

 

"I have danced to the fat man's pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us?

 

He does call her Lemore. But maybe is because they've known each other for around ten years, surely. She doesn't call him Griff or Jon, though. Neither does Haldon. It's because they are both "socially" beneath him. More blahs, Haldon is also useless.

 

"Bring the boy," Griff told Lemore. "See that he's ready."

 

No "please", no nothing.

 

Nevertheless...

 

In the same chapter in which Tyrion wakes up after being rescued, this happens:

 

Lemore arrives dressed as some lady. Tyrion notices her and wonder who is she. We are told he has tried to figure out who everybody is: Griff, Young Griff, Ysilla, Yandry, Duck, Lemore...

 

Who he doesn't mention????

 

Next paragraph starts:

 

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

 

"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.

 

Tyrion has wondered about EVERYBODY's identity but Haldon's. Why? :dunno: Why he doesn't question who the f he is? They guy is VERY educated and he simply dropped the Citadel? Haldon served in the GC too. Honestly, Haldon seems to be quite smart and educated: he could have found work in any castle any time. And he said "you know what? Fuck it. I wanna serve in a sellsword company"?

 

Which is even more strange, his words ("What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore") can be taken as they being familiar with each other, but... during a re-read, before reading Tyrion's interruption, I thought "what? is this a flirt???".

 

Calling it: Haldon was a young noble studying in the Citadel and got Lemore, who ever she is, pregnant. They they ran to Essos.

 

 

Good points.  I think, if memory is serving today, that by this time Haldon and Tyrion had already played their game(s) of Cyvasse for secrets yes?  So this is a clue that he knows Haldon's identity, but has yet to reveal it to the reader.  I'm not saying they're characters from the past or characters whose past is left ambiguous... just that Tyrion knows or has guessed.

 

If they're not the usual suspects, could they possibly be related to houses that supported Targaryens?  While the notion that Haldon got Lemore pregnant is quite plausible, it seems to nag at me how then they crossed paths with Jon Con?  Duck was knighted by Jon, but how did they meet?  Before/after the war?  Did Duck take up with a house that supported Targaryens as a hedge knight first, then meet Jon after exile?  Same could be said for Haldon and Lemore.  I think even if it's an immaterial connection, that there is a connection nonetheless.  They seem to know the stakes and are committed to the cause, so while the conversation you quoted between Lemore and Jon doesn't necessarily shed any light on their relationship or the origins thereof, he trusted each of them enough with the secret (such that it is).  That leads me to believe there's a connection, whether they just supported House Targaryen, or 'brothers' in exile as it were.  Though, we know that some houses have never stopped supporting Targaryens, they just kept it very secret.  Jon Con I can totally get choosing exile because of his man-crush on Rhaegar.  The way Robert dished out pardons after the fall of KL I find it a little hard to believe he'd not pardon Jon Con, so his exile was seemingly by choice.  We also know that he didn't have Aegon to begin with, at least according to what's stated in the text.  So there seems to be about a 5 year gap at a minimum.  Robert's ruled for 15+ years since the end of the rebellion, give or take a year or two from the current timeline in the series so the 10 years that Jon Con references seems to indicate there was a time-gap; which easily could be as he stated, spent with the GC, but my memory on their dialogue with him in the tent after Aegon's announcement... how long had he been separated from the GC?

 

Sorry for getting a little off-topic.  Perhaps a portion of the crew was present when Varys made Aegon known to Jon Con?  As in, maybe Lemore and Haldon were responsible for, or part of his escape or were already "attached" to Aegon when Varys and Jon spoke and the deal was initially hatched?  It just doesn't seem likely that there was a job posting in Pentos for a Maester and a Septa... I think they're connected in some fashion.

[Daena the Defiant]

Side note: JonCon refers to Lemore as "Lady Lemore" but never "Septa Lemore" or "Septa" in any way in both of his ADwD chapters.

 

The only time "septa" is used in his chapters was to describe her clothing in his second chapter:  Lady Lemore was with him [Aegon], garbed once more in the white robes of a septa.  Again, he refers to her as Lady Lemore.

 

 

I just figured that she was nobly born and entered Holy Orders after she a) lost her child or b.) was forced into it because she got pregnant while unmarried, and that her family is sympathetic to House Targaryen. I harbor a vague theory that she may have been Faegon's wetnurse if she was still young and lactating when she was brought into the cabal.