Septa Lemore Identity/Wording of Robert's Rebellion

[OuttaOldtown]

OuttaOldtown@
I am a firm believer that the Hightowers have a major role to play in upcoming events. I would not be suprised if they were not the true power of the Reach, and their absence in contributing troupes to the war efforts are highly conspicuous...yet not mentioned by anyone. They have far too many resources (gold, Citadel, Faith, untouched troups, a port) to be allowed to sit on the sidelines as they do, especially since the Reach is fully involved. The Vale had pressure to become involved, so why not the Hightowers? All this (& the suspicous story of being locked up pouring over spells) leads me to believe they know and are involved in something big.

So, your idea certainly has merit. I wouldn't go so far as to say Haldon and Lemore are Lewton and Malora, but they could very well be Hightowers.

I'm not convinced myself, there's a lot of things about the Hightowers that are curious. Like the fact that Jon Hightower brought Serenei of Lys into the picture. It's likely they're alligned with other players, the question is who?

[Lady Sharya]

Doesn't matter.  Let's change the subject.  
 
Who do you think Lemore is?    I imagine you just think she's a septa named Lemore, and that Young Griff really is baby Aegon.  Or am I wrong?

Okay, now I really wanna know what it means.:lol: Me thinks you may have dogged me right under my nose.:)

I am totally open to who Lemore is. I like OuttaOldtown's idea of her being a Hightower, and Isobel Harper's idea of her being a Dayne. I don't think she is Ashara. It just doesn't feel right. And, I don't think fAegon is the real deal.:)

[UnViserion]

Have we ruled out the possibility that she is Euron? :idea:

[OuttaOldtown]

Okay, now I really wanna know what it means.:lol: Me thinks you may have dogged me right under my nose.:)

I am totally open to who Lemore is. I like OuttaOldtown's idea of her being a Hightower, and Isobel Harper's idea of her being a Dayne. I don't think she is Ashara. It just doesn't feel right. And, I don't think fAegon is the real deal.:)

I don't think he's the real deal Aegon son of Rhaegar but is most definitely a Targaryen whether Blackfyre/Brightflame/Seastar/other. The amazing thing is there is a possibility that he could be as pure as Dany or more. I doubt it but with all the exiled Targs & bastards of Aegon it's technically possible when you consider Daeron II, Maekar & Egg all married outside the family..

[ChillyPolly]

And, I don't think fAegon is the real deal. :)

 

 I simply don't think GRRM gives false info & clues to trick his readers. ;)

 

But how do you reconcile these 2 statements?

(Now, you may have an idea of the sort of thing I meant by "Hmff").

[Lady Sharya]

Have we ruled out the possibility that she is Euron? :idea:

  
Yes we have...only because the text doesn't support Euron having stretch marks from childbirth.;)

I don't think he's the real deal Aegon son of Rhaegar but is most definitely a Targaryen whether Blackfyre/Brightflame/Seastar/other. The amazing thing is there is a possibility that he could be as pure as Dany or more. I doubt it but with all the exiled Targs & bastards of Aegon it's technically possible when you consider Daeron II, Maekar & Egg all married outside the family..

 
I agree he is a Targ or Blackfyre.

 

But how do you reconcile these 2 statements?
(Now, you may have an idea of the sort of thing I meant by "Hmff").

I don't think everything in the story is presented with absolute accuracy, obviously since we know & learn a lot of falsehoods like R+L=J, Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn, ect., but there are clues in the form of truths throughout the story to help us figure these out. Your theories rely on small bits of info that you take as falsehoods without any hints in truths. In other words, they rely on too many falsehoods throughout the story.
And, my bad cuz I still can't figure out what Hmff means. Send me the meaning in a message. I promise not to hold it against you.:)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The problem with mostly theories about Varys (or that include Varys) is that he would need to the careful planner that we know he's not. He works with what he goes finding on the way and adapts (which is, imo, the best method to success). I mean, even if we somehow assume that he told Aerys to exile Griff instead of killing him, he would have needed him to lost the Battle of the Bells in first place :dunno: And yes, I've seen people theorizing that even he had an involvement. I am more likely to accept that he took the chance after seeing Griff in disgrace and told the King that it was better to exile him and he somehow leaded him to the GC (kinda like he guided Barristan). With that in mind, it's more likely as well that he simply found a disgraced septa and a smart guy who were also in some sort of need and included them on the group.

 

I doubt Haldon is some important character in disguise. He is definitely something more, like I said, probably some young noble who went to the Citadel and abandoned it for some reason and then fled to the Golden Company because, well, something happened. Duck is not someone important and he did that exactly. It's not uncommon for people to run to Essos and join some Sellsword company. Tyrion met a guy who travelled to Essos after Blackwater. Is that guy a secret Noble guy too? :dunno: We already have one noble guy in disguise in this story, who was Griff. Do we need more people? I dunno why people believe GRRM being so repetitive. Ok, he is, but not in the same plot.

 

I'm sure Haldon is indeed Haldon, the guy who left the Citadel without a link and joined the GC. BUT, I also think he might be Varys's spy. After all, he's the one controlling the messages. I think Toyne and Varys were on a deal (whether Aegon is real or not), and he was meant to provide Griff with whoever he needed (that's how he got Duck, after all). If he accepted Haldon in the group, it's probably because he either knew him from his time with the GC or because Toyne told him he was trustworthy. Look, I'm not saying Haldon and Toyne don't like or respect Griff for real, but it's Varys the one they report to without him knowing because Varys is their leader, not Griff. Or maybe, Griff does know Haldon reports to him, but doesn't know exactly what he's saying. His arc won't end without finding out he's been played by those he trusted or gave for granted :dunno:

 

About Lemore, I have no idea, tbh, but I like the theory of her being the White Fawn, Wenda. There is a connection, after all. Wenda served with the Kingswood Brotherhood, who was leaded by Simon Toyne. After they were captured, we don't know their fate. But it wouldn't be impossible to think that Wenda looked for Myles Toyne, relative (even if distant) of Simon, if she managed to escape, specially if she was pregnant with his (or anyone's) child.

 

There are other small clues that would help us to believe Lemore is Wenda. For instance, Wenda lived surrounded by men. I'm sure she cared little for them to see her naked when she was taking a bath. Sound familiar?

[purple-eyes]

The problem with mostly theories about Varys (or that include Varys) is that he would need to the careful planner that we know he's not. He works with what he goes finding on the way and adapts (which is, imo, the best method to success). I mean, even if we somehow assume that he told Aerys to exile Griff instead of killing him, he would have needed him to lost the Battle of the Bells in first place :dunno: And yes, I've seen people theorizing that even he had an involvement. I am more likely to accept that he took the chance after seeing Griff in disgrace and told the King that it was better to exile him and he somehow leaded him to the GC (kinda like he guided Barristan). With that in mind, it's more likely as well that he simply found a disgraced septa and a smart guy who were also in some sort of need and included them on the group.
 
I doubt Haldon is some important character in disguise. He is definitely something more, like I said, probably some young noble who went to the Citadel and abandoned it for some reason and then fled to the Golden Company because, well, something happened. Duck is not someone important and he did that exactly. It's not uncommon for people to run to Essos and join some Sellsword company. Tyrion met a guy who travelled to Essos after Blackwater. Is that guy a secret Noble guy too? :dunno: We already have one noble guy in disguise in this story, who was Griff. Do we need more people? I dunno why people believe GRRM being so repetitive. Ok, he is, but not in the same plot.
 
I'm sure Haldon is indeed Haldon, the guy who left the Citadel without a link and joined the GC. BUT, I also think he might be Varys's spy. After all, he's the one controlling the messages. I think Toyne and Varys were on a deal (whether Aegon is real or not), and he was meant to provide Griff with whoever he needed (that's how he got Duck, after all). If he accepted Haldon in the group, it's probably because he either knew him from his time with the GC or because Toyne told him he was trustworthy. Look, I'm not saying Haldon and Toyne don't like or respect Griff for real, but it's Varys the one they report to without him knowing because Varys is their leader, not Griff. Or maybe, Griff does know Haldon reports to him, but doesn't know exactly what he's saying. His arc won't end without finding out he's been played by those he trusted or gave for granted :dunno:
 
About Lemore, I have no idea, tbh, but I like the theory of her being the White Fawn, Wenda. There is a connection, after all. Wenda served with the Kingswood Brotherhood, who was leaded by Simon Toyne. After they were captured, we don't know their fate. But it wouldn't be impossible to think that Wenda looked for Myles Toyne, relative (even if distant) of Simon, if she managed to escape, specially if she was pregnant with his (or anyone's) child.
 
There are other small clues that would help us to believe Lemore is Wenda. For instance, Wenda lived surrounded by men. I'm sure she cared little for them to see her naked when she was taking a bath. Sound familiar?

wenda seems like a very skillful warrior but lemore did not show any sign of it.
But anyway, i think the biggest problem with JonCon and aegon is that JonCon was very familiar with both rhaegar and elia. If aegon just a random kid with silver hair and purple eyes, JonCon can not be fooled even he is very desperately in love with rhaegar.
Aegon had to look like rhaegar or elia a little bit to pass.
How come varys find a baby who will surely grow look like rhaegar?
Maybe aegon is real just nobody believe him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

wenda seems like a very skillful warrior but lemore did not show any sign of it.

Well, she needs to be in hiding. Besides, she hasn't needed to prove so.

But anyway, i think the biggest problem with JonCon and aegon is that JonCon was very familiar with both rhaegar and elia. If aegon just a random kid with silver hair and purple eyes, JonCon can not be fooled even he is very desperately in love with rhaegar.
Aegon had to look like rhaegar or elia a little bit to pass.
How come varys find a baby who will surely grow look like rhaegar?
Maybe aegon is real just nobody believe him.

I kinda agree with this.

In Feast, we found out that not all Valyrian people look the same (ok, that's... racist). Cersei has said that Aurane Waters, a Velaryon bastard, has different features than Rhaegar (longer face, IICR). It has also been pointed out that Dany looks like Naerys. The fact it has been pointed out she looks like someone from several generations behind could indicate that she doesn't exactly look like any of her parents :dunno:

The thing with Aegon is that despite his parents aren't related, they do share some similar blood. Elia had Targ blood and Rhaegar had Martell blood. Despite all of their inbreeding, the modern Targaryens have a lot of Westerosi/Essosi blood: Martell, Dayne, Blackwood, etc. So, some random kid they found out in Essos can just pass as Rhaegar's son just because he has silver hair and purple eyes.

We also had Brienne recognising Gendry in Feast. He only needed to look at him once to realise he had Baratheon's blood. Many people who have met Robert hasn't made that connection but her, because she LOVED Renly and his face was very present in her mind.

Jon's case might be similar. I hate when people assume Varys simply gave him the kid and he said "ah, ok! thanks, I was needing some plot device for my redemption". I'm sure he asked a LOT of questions (including "how do I know this kid is not the son of some Lyseni whore?") and Varys was able to provide with acceptable proof. Jon has known three adult Targaryens and one kid, and he has also seen a few Lyseni with Valyrian blood while in Essos. I'm sure he's able to recognise how the Targ look.

[purple-eyes]

Well, she needs to be in hiding. Besides, she hasn't needed to prove so.I kinda agree with this.In Feast, we found out that not all Valyrian people look the same (ok, that's... racist). Cersei has said that Aurane Waters, a Velaryon bastard, has different features than Rhaegar (longer face, IICR). It has also been pointed out that Dany looks like Naerys. The fact it has been pointed out she looks like someone from several generations behind could indicate that she doesn't exactly look like any of her parents :dunno:The thing with Aegon is that despite his parents aren't related, they do share some similar blood. Elia had Targ blood and Rhaegar had Martell blood. Despite all of their inbreeding, the modern Targaryens have a lot of Westerosi/Essosi blood: Martell, Dayne, Blackwood, etc. So, some random kid they found out in Essos can just pass as Rhaegar's son just because he has silver hair and purple eyes.We also had Brienne recognising Gendry in Feast. He only needed to look at him once to realise he had Baratheon's blood. Many people who have met Robert hasn't made that connection but her, because she LOVED Renly and his face was very present in her mind.Jon's case might be similar. I hate when people assume Varys simply gave him the kid and he said "ah, ok! thanks, I was needing some plot device for my redemption". I'm sure he asked a LOT of questions (including "how do I know this kid is not the son of some Lyseni whore?") and Varys was able to provide with acceptable proof. Jon has known three adult Targaryens and one kid, and he has also seen a few Lyseni with Valyrian blood while in Essos. I'm sure he's able to recognise how the Targ look.

True.
if aegon is the real son of rhaegar and elia, he will surely have something similar to his mother or father.
He can not look completely different from both parents. JonCon not only saw his parents, but also familiar with his grandparents, uncle viserys, he also knew his uncle oberyn, uncle doran.
JonCon would not be fooled so easily.

And JonCon may be quite familiar with Lys if he wanted to find some silver haired boys there who look like rhaegar. :)
Anyway disputed land is close to Lys.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

He thinks of her as "Lemore" because they've been playing the role for how many years?

[OuttaOldtown]

The problem with mostly theories about Varys (or that include Varys) is that he would need to the careful planner that we know he's not. He works with what he goes finding on the way and adapts (which is, imo, the best method to success). I mean, even if we somehow assume that he told Aerys to exile Griff instead of killing him, he would have needed him to lost the Battle of the Bells in first place :dunno: And yes, I've seen people theorizing that even he had an involvement. I am more likely to accept that he took the chance after seeing Griff in disgrace and told the King that it was better to exile him and he somehow leaded him to the GC (kinda like he guided Barristan). With that in mind, it's more likely as well that he simply found a disgraced septa and a smart guy who were also in some sort of need and included them on the group.
 
I doubt Haldon is some important character in disguise. He is definitely something more, like I said, probably some young noble who went to the Citadel and abandoned it for some reason and then fled to the Golden Company because, well, something happened. Duck is not someone important and he did that exactly. It's not uncommon for people to run to Essos and join some Sellsword company. Tyrion met a guy who travelled to Essos after Blackwater. Is that guy a secret Noble guy too? :dunno: We already have one noble guy in disguise in this story, who was Griff. Do we need more people? I dunno why people believe GRRM being so repetitive. Ok, he is, but not in the same plot.
 
I'm sure Haldon is indeed Haldon, the guy who left the Citadel without a link and joined the GC. BUT, I also think he might be Varys's spy. After all, he's the one controlling the messages. I think Toyne and Varys were on a deal (whether Aegon is real or not), and he was meant to provide Griff with whoever he needed (that's how he got Duck, after all). If he accepted Haldon in the group, it's probably because he either knew him from his time with the GC or because Toyne told him he was trustworthy. Look, I'm not saying Haldon and Toyne don't like or respect Griff for real, but it's Varys the one they report to without him knowing because Varys is their leader, not Griff. Or maybe, Griff does know Haldon reports to him, but doesn't know exactly what he's saying. His arc won't end without finding out he's been played by those he trusted or gave for granted :dunno:
 
About Lemore, I have no idea, tbh, but I like the theory of her being the White Fawn, Wenda. There is a connection, after all. Wenda served with the Kingswood Brotherhood, who was leaded by Simon Toyne. After they were captured, we don't know their fate. But it wouldn't be impossible to think that Wenda looked for Myles Toyne, relative (even if distant) of Simon, if she managed to escape, specially if she was pregnant with his (or anyone's) child.
 
There are other small clues that would help us to believe Lemore is Wenda. For instance, Wenda lived surrounded by men. I'm sure she cared little for them to see her naked when she was taking a bath. Sound familiar?

I've read the theory but don't see the connection to the faith & education, she seems like someone connected to other story arcs. It's better than Ashara, that theory I consider insane.

[HexMachina]

I believe you have misunderstood the passage where it is said Doren didn't wan't to separate her from her children. They were still together when Doren planned to ward their youngest and she threatened suicide, so he kept the boy at home. It was later that she went back to Norvos.

This is partially true, but the point is that Mellario threatens to harm herself if Doran takes another of her children from her.

 

"That green-haired girl was the Archon’s daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I…I could not do that to her.”

Mellario then leaves Doran and returns to Norvos, losing all of her children. Something about that seems peculiar. She's threatening to harm herself over losing a child, and then she sets off without any of her children. I don't believe the Young Griff is Quentyn idea, but I do think that something is odd about the situation. I just don't have any idea what.

[OuttaOldtown]

This is partially true, but the point is that Mellario threatens to harm herself if Doran takes another of her children from her.
Mellario then leaves Doran and returns to Norvos, losing all of her children. Something about that seems peculiar. She's threatening to harm herself over losing a child, and then she sets off without any of her children. I don't believe the Young Griff is Quentyn idea, but I do think that something is odd about the situation. I just don't have any idea what.

It's so strange, I've given up searching for clues & reasoning, every trail leads to a dead end. Doran is either not as smart as people like Tywin & Varys painted him out to be or we are missing the key information as to his plan. If he is connected to Aegon in any major way GRRM has done a wonderful job concealing it..

[Lady Sharya]

This is partially true, but the point is that Mellario threatens to harm herself if Doran takes another of her children from her.

Mellario then leaves Doran and returns to Norvos, losing all of her children. Something about that seems peculiar. She's threatening to harm herself over losing a child, and then she sets off without any of her children. I don't believe the Young Griff is Quentyn idea, but I do think that something is odd about the situation. I just don't have any idea what.

Fair enough. My memory was only half true. While Arianne is locked in a tower cell, she thinks of getting her mother to help sway Doran to release her, and then dismisses the idea thinking he doesn't listen to Mellario anymore. Could she have been exiled/sent away rather than leaving on her own? The latest I could find on Mellario being in Dorne was when Arianne was 14yrs old.

[Isobel Harper]

One additional tidbit about Haldon that I've noticed: He observes Tyrion and Aegon's cyvasse game, where Tyrion suggests they head west. Then, when Aegon suggests they head west to the GC, JonCon acts surprised. Haldon kept Tyrion's suggestion a secret.

Evidently, Haldon thought it was good to head west as well for some reason perhaps?

[purple-eyes]

Fair enough. My memory was only half true. While Arianne is locked in a tower cell, she thinks of getting her mother to help sway Doran to release her, and then dismisses the idea thinking he doesn't listen to Mellario anymore. Could she have been exiled/sent away rather than leaving on her own? The latest I could find on Mellario being in Dorne was when Arianne was 14yrs old.

 

I think GRRM mentioned that she was not used to the culture and life of Dorne so eventually she left.

Doran did not exile her or send her away. He even send somebody (who was part of Arianne's team) to serve his wife in Norvos.  

[Lady Sharya]

I think GRRM mentioned that she was not used to the culture and life of Dorne so eventually she left.
Doran did not exile her or send her away. He even send somebody (who was part of Arianne's team) to serve his wife in Norvos.

We know Doran sent Ser Andrey to Norvos and we know she wasn't happy with certain aspects of Dorne culture (fostering her children out), but these do not explain why she would leave her children behind when she clearly wanted to be with them. Since she clearly stayed in Dorne through the births of three children (the youngest being 13yrs old), and was there when Arianne was 14yrs, she had lived there at least 15 years. This seems...odd. Please show how you know the circumstances behind her leaving as I cannot find it in the books.

[purple-eyes]

We know Doran sent Ser Andrey to Norvos and we know she wasn't happy with certain aspects of Dorne culture (fostering her children out), but these do not explain why she would leave her children behind when she clearly wanted to be with them. Since she clearly stayed in Dorne through the births of three children (the youngest being 13yrs old), and was there when Arianne was 14yrs, she had lived there at least 15 years. This seems...odd. Please show how you know the circumstances behind her leaving as I cannot find it in the books.

 

Oh, it is a SSM. 

 

Doran and Mellario had discussed the reasons for why he wanted to send his children away, why did she leave?

It wasn't a good marriage. They married because of an attraction to something new and exotic. Sometimes, attraction happens when you least expect it. He was a prince of a distant country, and shew as a woman full of life, who was very appealing, who came from a very different culture. When she comes to Dorne, she finds that there are customs that are different from those of Norvos, especially regarding the fostering away of children to others. This wasn't a political marriage, nor a magical one, it was simply an example of human nature. Sometimes relationships start on a good foot: you become acquainted, there's a great sexual attraction, you establish a relationship, you marry... and then in four or five years you realize that you don't really have anything in common, that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common. This is an example that it's not only marriages of convenience that fail, but even the marriages for love can fail.

Sometimes the marriages of convenience in the Seven Kingdoms come out well and those that are for love don't. Sometimes a couple loves one another, and then at some point they don't. There are marriages that also develop out of nothing more than lust (laughs). There's no guarantee that things will go well and the consequence of this is that disappointments develop and you end up estranged, each person going their own way. There's some bitterness from Mellario about this, because as Prince of Dorne, Doran has been able to stay with his children and she has had to leave them.

[Mithras]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is a theory that states Ashara Dayne is masquerading as Septa Lemore.

 

Yes and that is one of the worst theories in the history.