R+L=J v.156

[UnViserion]

Thank you for confirming your thoughts to all of us in plain words.
 
You REFUSE to rationalize and understand his actions.  You just want him in a negative light.
 
And that's up to you. But don't sit there typing like your convictions have any bearing on our interpretations.
 
GRRM doesn't write without purpose.  He gives each of his characters from the most innocent to the most evil, purpose of their actions, whether those actions are inherently evil/gray/stupid or wise/righteous/smart.  It is up to us, his readers to interpret those actions.  There is no right or wrong in the clearest of lines, unless he makes it so.

Ok, there are far more RLJ regulars who refuse to hold Rhaegar accountable than there are detractors.

Yall are the ones with this rock solid belief that he acted out of love and all that. if he did he was a fool. And selfish. and reckless.

If you guys are so convinced Rhaegars gonna come out shining on the other end, you might want to reevaluate some of your theories, because the ones most commonly proposed are looking grim.

[MtnLion]

While I think it is possible that Robert screwed around at the Harrenhal tourney, and that Lyanna could have heard about it, the World Book explicitly states that Robert and Lyanna were already long betrothed when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QOLAB.

 

Oh, I am aware of that, and the many other inaccuracies of the World Book.  ;)

[MtnLion]

ML,

 

that theory is long dead. Lyanna and Robert could have gotten to know each other years ago in the Vale, while Ned and Robert were both Jon's wards and the Starks visiting Ned, Jon, and their cousins in Vale - long before the betrothal was made or even discussed.

Again, let me point out that Lyanna is 14 at Harrenhal, and that prior to Harrenhal is several years of winter.  During winter northerners leave their abodes to "go hunting", or not at all.  Rickard, and maybe Brandon would be trusted enough to escort Lyanna, but to the Vale during winter, I doubt.  Mya was born during that winter, it is known.  The dialog was at Winterfell, and referenced Mya as well as Robert's philandering.  This all leads to Harrenhal as the source for Lyanna's observations.  What was Robert doing that first night?  Oh yeah, he was in a war of cups with Lonmouth.  Fine thing to be doing when meeting up with your betrothed for the first time in years.  Nope, I fall back to the betrothal is after Harrenhal, in spite of the World Book.  (Yandel's veracity has another crack in it.) 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Since the timeline seems to be yours, let me address something that still bothers me about the timeline.  It seems that Mya is supposed to be born, and Robert's activities are known, when Lyanna (on the night that her betrothal is announced) talks with Ned at Winterfell. 

 

That night at Winterfell, Ned remembers holding Mya when talking with Lyanna.  Lyanna knows not just that he has a bastard daughter, but what Robert's proclivities are.  Robert has never been to Winterfell before visiting Ned to ask him to be Hand, so Robert did not meet Lyanna at Winterfell.  Noble daughters, especially attractive ones, are never allowed to travel without a family protector before their marriage.  And, prior to the Tourney at Harrenhal is (years) winter.  The likelihood that Lyanna had travelled to the Eyrie to meet Robert is about nil.  So, we get down to when could Lyanna have observed Robert's behavior, to know him so well, before the announcement of her betrothal?  I maintain, and feel fairly optimistic that we will learn that Lyanna observed Robert at the tourney, and that the betrothal was at Winterfell, during the (months) of winter that followed the tourney. 

 

Your statements, above, lend a great deal of credence to this sequence.  That Lyanna observed Robert at the Tourney at Harrenhal.  That Lyanna heard the rumor of Mya at Harrenhal.  That Ned or Brandon carried Robert's offer of betrothal back to Rickard at Winterfell, where it was accepted and announced.  That the Starks all wintered at Winterfell, following the tourney. 

Before the World Book was released, I would have agreed that it was would have been likely that the betrothal had occured after the tourney, as to have Robert see Lyanna at least once. 

 

However, the World Book clearly states that at the tourney, Robert and Lyanna had been betrothed for a long while, and I see no reason to doubt that statement. Nor would winter have stopped all travel across the land. Tourneys are being held in winter, for example. 

 

There are other times where Lyanna might have met Robert. Not to mention that the time between Robert first seeing Lyanna, and the actual betrothal, might have been quite long. We simply don't know. But Robert easily could have met Lyanna, before the idea of marriage came to mind. Did Rickard take Lyanna with him once when visiting KL and travelled past the Vale on his way back north? Did some Starks attend one of the tourney's Robert organized at Storm's End? Did they see each other at another tourney, somewhere? 

 

Winter had begun somewhere in 279 AC, and with Mya born in either 279 AC or 280 AC, that year immediately becomes the first option for the betrothal to have occured. Perhaps Ned had thought to visit his family before winter truly set in.. Or perhaps his visit was even in late autumn, shortly before winter began. For all we know, Mya's birth was early in 279 AC and winter didn't begin until late 279 AC. And even if winter had already begun, as I said, that doesn't mean no one could have travelled.

 

Also, "since the timeline seems to be yours"... it's simple math. If character A is x years old in year y, it's not so difficult to say in which years that character was born, now is it? All I did, was calculate it for as many characters as it could be done for. 

[purple-eyes]

Again, let me point out that Lyanna is 14 at Harrenhal, and that prior to Harrenhal is several years of winter.  During winter northerners leave their abodes to "go hunting", or not at all.  Rickard, and maybe Brandon would be trusted enough to escort Lyanna, but to the Vale during winter, I doubt.  Mya was born during that winter, it is known.  The dialog was at Winterfell, and referenced Mya as well as Robert's philandering.  This all leads to Harrenhal as the source for Lyanna's observations.  What was Robert doing that first night?  Oh yeah, he was in a war of cups with Lonmouth.  Fine thing to be doing when meeting up with your betrothed for the first time in years.  Nope, I fall back to the betrothal is after Harrenhal, in spite of the World Book.  (Yandel's veracity has another crack in it.) 

 

The world book is so clear on this and you are still rejecting it for your wishful thinking?

You may just tell us that Rhaegar is indeed a woman and it is Ned who slept with her and got a child in her. 

This can explain that why Rhaegar himself had to hide for almost one year (having a child) and also finally lost to robert (too weak after birth).

[IceFire125]

Ok, there are far more RLJ regulars who refuse to hold Rhaegar accountable than there are detractors.

Yall are the ones with this rock solid belief that he acted out of love and all that. if he did he was a fool. And selfish. and reckless.

If you guys are so convinced Rhaegars gonna come out shining on the other end, you might want to reevaluate some of your theories, because the ones most commonly proposed are looking grim.

 

Theories are theories, so what? Let it be!  Just like there are many outside of this thread that believe he's a jerk and a scumbag.  What is it to you to claim ours is wrong and your side is right? We're all hardcores and readers of the books.  You're mistaken to think that outside of this circle (those that watch the show and or casual readers that got wind of R+L=J through the web or just got it through reading) have a bearing on what we believe.  I believe that Rhaegar's actions were complex and resulted in a set of events leading to many lives being lost, even if it was through love or prophecy, lives were lost.  That was the tragedy.  

 

It's ridiculous to claim one has a higher standing than the other.  We're all readers each with individual opinions and interpretation of GRRM's writings.

[MtnLion]

Winter had begun somewhere in 279 AC, and with Mya born in either 279 AC or 280 AC, that year immediately becomes the first option for the betrothal to have occured. Perhaps Ned had thought to visit his family before winter truly set in.. Or perhaps his visit was even in late autumn, shortly before winter began. For all we know, Mya's birth was early in 279 AC and winter didn't begin until late 279 AC. And even if winter had already begun, as I said, that doesn't mean no one could have travelled.

 

Also, "since the timeline seems to be yours"... it's simple math. If character A is x years old in year y, it's not so difficult to say in which years that character was born, now is it? All I did, was calculate it for as many characters as it could be done for. 

Mya can also be born in 281.  It is likely that Mya was born in 280 or 281 if you read this part of Robert's age:

 

 He was a scant year older than his brother, Stannis, who was born in 264 AC.

 

264 minus one is 263, so Robert is born very late in 262. 

Robert Baratheon was born in 262 AC. Since is it stated that Robert was younger than 17 when fathering, thus conceiving, Mya, Mya's conception cannot have occured [sic] later than 279 AC, with Robert being 16 turning 17 that year.

 The three possible birth years for Mya would then give the following options:
 If Mya was born in 279 AC, she was conceived in either 278 AC or 279 AC
 If Mya was born in 280 AC, she was conceived in either 279 AC or 280 AC
 If Mya was born in 281 AC, she was conceived in either 280 AC or 281 AC

Late in  262 has been confirmed, if we go back to Robert's and Stannis' namedays calculations.

Mya was conceived in very late 279, through very late 280 (Robert less than 17 to 18), where her birth is between the ninth month of 280 and the ninth month of 281.  Again, this leaves very little room for "long betrothal" and Lyanna objecting AT Winterfell while Ned recalls holding Mya when the betrothal is announced.  We do know that Catelyn's betrothal announcement leads to Littlefinger's challenge, which is about a year after Harrenhal, even though arrangements had been made earlier.  (I am beginning to think that perhaps Hoster and Rickard had a discussion about things being still "on" for the wedding before making the announcement, formally.)

 

I am not sure where this sentiment comes from:

As Mya cannot have been born in 281 AC, she cannot have been 18 turning 19 in 300 AC.

at the end of the Mya Stone entry.  Is there something, besides the objection that I am raising about the betrothal that prevents her from being born in 281? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Mya can also be born in 281.  It is likely that Mya was born in 280 or 281 if you read this part of Robert's age:

 

 

 

 

264 minus one is 263, so Robert is born very late in 262. 

 

Late in  262 has been confirmed, if we go back to Robert's and Stannis' namedays calculations.

Mya was conceived in very late 279, through very late 280 (Robert less than 17 to 18), where her birth is between the ninth month of 280 and the ninth month of 281.  Again, this leaves very little room for "long betrothal" and Lyanna objecting AT Winterfell while Ned recalls holding Mya when the betrothal is announced.  We do know that Catelyn's betrothal announcement leads to Littlefinger's challenge, which is about a year after Harrenhal, even though arrangements had been made earlier.  (I am beginning to think that perhaps Hoster and Rickard had a discussion about things being still "on" for the wedding before making the announcement, formally.)

 

I am not sure where this sentiment comes from:

 

 

at the end of the Mya Stone entry.  Is there something, besides the objection that I am raising about the betrothal that prevents her from being born in 281? 

Robert was younger than 17 or 18, thus, he was 16 years old upon conception (or younger). With his birth in 262 AC, that means Mya's conception took place in 279 AC latest. Even if that happened in late 279 AC, her birth could not possibly have been later than 280 AC.

 

I highly doubt that GRRM took the timing of the year into account when deciding who was born when, but even if he did, 281 AC is simply not possible. 

 

Why would Yandel lie about the timing of a publicly known event?

[purple-eyes]

Robert was younger than 17 or 18, thus, he was 16 years old upon conception (or younger). With his birth in 262 AC, that means Mya's conception took place in 279 AC latest. Even if that happened in late 279 AC, her birth could not possibly have been later than 280 AC.

 

I highly doubt that GRRM took the timing of the year into account when deciding who was born when, but even if he did, 281 AC is simply not possible. 

 

Why would Yandel lie about the timing of a publicly known event?

 

Because somebody around here wants to make Rhaegar looks better and smarter because he is not wooing somebody's long-time fiancee in HH?

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys & ML,

 

the idea about the betrothal being (announced) after Harrenhal never made any sense, even before TWoIaF. If Lyanna hadn't been betrothed to anyone, then neither the Starks nor Robert would have had any reason to be pissed about Rhaegar. Not all the smiles would have died. More importantly, Lyanna would have had time and opportunity to make plans with Rhaegar to prevent herself from ever being betrothed to Robert in the first place considering that this wasn't a fact at this point. The Starks sons couldn't make a marriage contract with Robert, that would (and was, according to the App) Lord Rickard's business, and it seems he wasn't there at Harrenhal. But if he had been - and I find that notion intriguing - then he would have seen much more promise in Lyanna becoming the mistress/second wife of Rhaegar Targaryen than her becoming the wife of Storm's End. Rickard was after influence and power in the South.

 

As to traveling stuff in winter:

 

ML, winter doesn't shut everything down. Ned and whoever accompanied him to and from Winterfell to the Vale wouldn't have been traveling overland. They would have gone by ship, from Gulltown to White Harbor, and vice versa. Lyanna could have heard about Mya from any companions that may have been in Ned's party - squires, servants, grooms, friends. There is a pretty big hint that 'the Vale connection' did not only include Ned and Jon but also Brandon, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn - two of his later companions when he challenged Rhaegar. They wouldn't have been with Brandon then if they hadn't been close to him in some fashion, presumably that of being friends. And we see that there was a strong Vale-North axis established during the reign of Rickard Stark, presumably going back to the marriage of his aunt Jocelyn into the Royce family - Roose Bolton's son Domeric was also fostered in the Vale.

 

Lyanna could/would have met Robert (many times) prior to the her betrothal to him. Back in the days when the Starks delivered Ned to Jon, and then later when they visited occasionally. After all, they had kin in the Vale and while Robb later doesn't give a rat's ass about them and their legal claims to Winterfell, they were a lot closer related to Rickard, and Jocelyn Stark may have been still alive during Ned's childhood/youth.

 

The fact that TWoIaF contains some mistakes doesn't make it less reliable that the other books of the series. AGoT has glaring inconsistencies - Renly has the wrong age and the wrong eye color, Ned couldn't have possibly been at the Eyrie prior to Harrenhal (the Eyrie would have been closed in winter), and there weren't any battles down in the south, apparently. But you usually only point things like that out when they are convenient for you and your view, and ignore all the other similar cases.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lord Varys,

 

The fact that all the smiles died could have been because Rhaegar was married, and still openly showing attention to another noblewoman. I doesn't take much to recognize that such a thing is an insult to Dorne.

 

That said, the statement in the book is pretty clear: the betrothal was long before Harrenhal.

[MtnLion]

Robert was younger than 17 or 18, thus, he was 16 years old upon conception (or younger). With his birth in 262 AC, that means Mya's conception took place in 279 AC latest. Even if that happened in late 279 AC, her birth could not possibly have been later than 280 AC.

 

I highly doubt that GRRM took the timing of the year into account when deciding who was born when, but even if he did, 281 AC is simply not possible. 

 

Why would Yandel lie about the timing of a publicly known event?

Let's look at it in detail, because obviously GRRM has, when we look carefully at the statements about Robert's and Stannis' ages. 

 

Younger than 17 or 18, granted.  When is Robert Younger than 18, since that is the outside.  If Robert's nameday is 12/30/262 then he is younger than 18 on 12/29/280, which would place Mya's birth at 9/29/281.  That is the latest date for her birth.  I still don't see why it is "simply not possible". 

 

Yandel has lied about other publicly known events.  :P

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Let's look at it in detail, because obviously GRRM has, when we look carefully at the statements about Robert's and Stannis' ages. 

 

Younger than 17 or 18, granted.  When is Robert Younger than 18, since that is the outside.  If Robert's nameday is 12/30/262 then he is younger than 18 on 12/29/280, which would place Mya's birth at 9/29/281.  That is the latest date for her birth.  I still don't see why it is "simply not possible". 

 

Yandel has lied about other publicly known events.  :P

Mya was either 17 or 18 in 298 AC, Robert was younger than that. Hence, he was 16 at most, and possibly even younger, when fathering Mya. But not older, as that would make him the same age as Mya was when the statement was made. So no, he wasn't 18, and no, he wasn't 17. He was 16 or younger, according to that statement. That seems rather clear.

 

And no matter when in 262 AC his birth occured, that makes it impossible for a child to have been born in 281 AC.

 

 

Nor did Yandel lie about any other publicly known events.

[Lord Varys]

Indeed. Yandel did not lie about the fate of Elia and her children. He just repeated some rumors he heard, he did not invent those from scratch. He may even honestly believe in those rumors although I doubt that this is actually the case. The truth about Elia and her children has also just rumor status until Gregor Clegane publicly confesses that he murdered Elia and Aegon - the murder of Rhaenys, on the other hand, was never confirmed by Ser Amory Lorch.

 

The smiles could have died on some of the faces because Rhaegar was already married. But then, defending the honor of Elia Martell wouldn't have been the business of many of the people at the tourney. Many princes had mistresses, so the Prince of Dragonstone could easily made advances towards a pretty girl which wasn't publicly betrothed to anyone.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

In your own post you just gave perfect reasons for him to "marry a second woman and leave his wife" (true love and save the world and also wife's permission) and "decide to hide when there is a war" (know nothing about the war until it is too late, then can not do anything except continuing hiding. seriously? even arianne had seven ravens with her along her long trip).

I did not see you put him into any negative point. You are trying to tell us Rhaegar did everything in this way because he had to do it iin this way, no other choice. 

Do you agree if we can use at least "reckless, irresponsible and arrogant" to describe him?

I am not sure I understand what point you are making. Are you saying that if everything I postulated is accurate, then Rhaegar still should be viewed as "reckless, irresponsible and arrogant"? If so, I am fine with that characterization. Everyone is entitled to evaluate a character's actions within their own personal lens (to a great extent -- of course with some exceptions, such as trying to  argue that Ramsey really is a great guy would not be a reasonable interpretation in my view). Or are you arguing that my version cannot be true because it does not paint Rhaegar as sufficiently "reckless, irresponsible and arrogant"? And because you believe Rhaegar must be those things, the ultimate reveal of facts cannot be as I outlined? I just cannot quite figure out which you mean. But if you mean the latter, then why? Why is GRRM obligated to paint Rhaegar worse than need be? Why would you be disappointed in GRRM if he does so? That is what I am not sure I get about your post. It seems like you are acknowledging that given what we know, GRRM is capable of minimizing Rhaegar's culpability, but if GRRM does so, you will be disappointed. Why? I won't be disappointed if he makes Rhaegar a jerk -- as long as the way the story is written in a way that is coherent and entertaining.

 

 

I think this is a pretty good analysis.
It is consistent with the Authors themes and concerns.

The only place where I differ is that I don't think their meeting was pre-arranged because we have from two different sources that seem to be consistent with the notion there was armed conflict.

First from Canon, the text says by way of Dany that Lyanna was taken at swordpoint, and she probably got the cleaned up version.

Second, from the companion piece that says Rhaegar "fell upon" Lyanna. The vernacular of the time means to "attack."

Yes, the swordpoint  issue has bothered me. But just because Lyanna and Rhaegar pre-arranged the meeting does not mean that the people who were with Lyanna were in on the situations. They might have needed to intimidate them to make sure they did not try to stop her from going. Maybe Rhaegar would take her without her consent -- it is possible -- but it seems strange given the other clues. I have always taken it as the "official" story because people asserted that Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna, so it might look like a forceful taking. But maybe he thought he needed to get her alone to talk to her and so he took her by force and then talked to her and explained the situation and gave her a choice. I really struggle with what I think happened at that point.

 

Ok, there are far more RLJ regulars who refuse to hold Rhaegar accountable than there are detractors.

Yall are the ones with this rock solid belief that he acted out of love and all that. if he did he was a fool. And selfish. and reckless.

If you guys are so convinced Rhaegars gonna come out shining on the other end, you might want to reevaluate some of your theories, because the ones most commonly proposed are looking grim.

I really am just trying to predict what I think happened. I am not trying to increase or reduce Rhaegar's level of blame. I am much less interested in assessing moral culpability than I am in trying to piece together the clues to predict what happened. You are the one who seems obsessed with getting people to acknowledge that Rhagear is a fool - selfish - reckless. I will not make any such judgment until I have all the relevant facts -- which we don't have yet. But at this point, trying to piece together the clues is what interests me -- but you seem to think that if I piece together clues in a manner favorable to Rhaegar that I am making excuses for him -- I am not. I am just predicting what I think GRRM is going to reveal happened. If I end up being wrong -- that is fine.

[MtnLion]

Mya was either 17 or 18 in 298 AC, Robert was younger than that. Hence, he was 16 at most, and possibly even younger, when fathering Mya. But not older, as that would make him the same age as Mya was when the statement was made. So no, he wasn't 18, and no, he wasn't 17. He was 16 or younger, according to that statement. That seems rather clear.

 

And no matter when in 262 AC his birth occured, that makes it impossible for a child to have been born in 281 AC.

 

 

Nor did Yandel lie about any other publicly known events.

Hmmm, we have an option for Mya's age of 17

 

-or-

 

18.

 

Ned does not specify that it is one or the other, and clearly she can be 18, when Ned suggests that Robert was younger when he did the deed.  Ned never seems to know precisely Robert's age, on my recollection.  And, generally, I would say that Ned is reminiscing about the young friend of his getting in trouble (or what should have been trouble) at what was a younger age.  Clearly, if Mya is 19 in 300 AC, she was born in 281 AC.  But, for some reason there is a denial here. 

 

ETA:  I have done what Ned may have done, trying to recall a younger one's age . . .  17, no 18 . . .  17 or 18, yeah 18. Rhaenys' age, 2 or 3. 

[Alia of the knife]

 

.Yes, the swordpoint  issue has bothered me. But just because Lyanna and Rhaegar pre-arranged the meeting does not mean that the people who were with Lyanna were in on the situations. They might have needed to intimidate them to make sure they did not try to stop her from going. Maybe Rhaegar would take her without her consent -- it is possible -- but it seems strange given the other clues. I have always taken it as the "official" story because people asserted that Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna, so it might look like a forceful taking. But maybe he thought he needed to get her alone to talk to her and so he took her by force and then talked to her and explained the situation and gave her a choice. I really struggle with what I think happened at that point.

 

 

I completely agree with all the above. I have always thought their relationship would be fraught with guilt and inner conflict, and I could totally see Lyanna trying angrily to resist it, knowing what she knows, that there can be no hope for them.

 

As for plans, I know I've never made plans that have turned out as I expected- ever.

[Alia of the knife]

On the love story:

 

There is a good chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna actually had an sexual relationship at Harrenhal and decided to end it. We know that there were supposedly lots and lots of secret meetings and romantic stuff going on at Harrenhal, and Lyanna and Rhaegar would be the prime suspects. It is easily imaginable that they Lyanna ended it with similar arguments Dany is using when she breaks up with Daario in preparation of her marriage to Hizdahr. Rhaegar never loved or lusted after Elia, so the chances are pretty high that went as far as he could with Lyanna. And if she was in love with him, too, then there is little reason to assume that she resisted.

 

Lyanna ending the thing could also explain why there was an abduction. Another Dany parallel there. The question whether Lyanna is actually happy with all that is another matter. We have to consider the possibility that there was a very passionate secret affair going on at Harrenhal, Lyanna ended it, and Rhaegar couldn't get over that - or felt he had to have for 'prophecy reasons' later on - but Lyanna was fine with that. In that sense there is still a decent possibility that the Kingsguard were Lyanna's gaolers not her protectors, and the whole thing was less about 'true love' - or love at all - on Lyanna's part. Especially in light of Aerys' treatment of Lyanna's father and brother, and Rhaegar's later decision to stand at the side of his father and House Targaryen riding into war against the surviving members of her family. The war easily could have ended with the eradication of the male branches of House Stark, after all.

 

And this is the vibe I've always gotten, especially with Lyanna. If we take Arya as a template, and who in all actuality was raised more gently than Lyanna would have been, Arya would be VERY hard to get and keep, as I think she might turn to anger to deal with her embattled feelings.

So too Lyanna I think.

 

More to your point, another quote from GRRM on marriage and how this might relate to Lyanna:

 

“And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the  years of  the Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned.” - GRRM  by James Poniewozik, Time April 18, 2012

[purple-eyes]

 

I completely agree with all the above. I have always thought their relationship would be fraught with guilt and inner conflict, and I could totally see Lyanna trying angrily to resist it, knowing what she knows, that there can be no hope for them.

 

As for plans, I know I've never made plans that have turned out as I expected- ever.

 

This sounds even more hypocritical considering they still did what they did. 

It is better to be just hot-tempered and wolf-blooded and "just do it without second thought". 

 

It is like: oh no, rhaegar! stop it! I am an highly honorable and noble lady. I can not do this, you are married and a father of two, I am another man's fiancee, it is a shame to my house and my family, my father and your father will be mad, they will fight with each other and somebody may die, there is no future for us and both of our family will be deeply hurt, people will hate me and my life will be ruined, your wife will call me a whore, if I am doing this, what is the difference between me and Robert?-------------but, you are so beautiful and you know how to sing sad songs and you gave me that beautiful flower wreath! OK, let us go then. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Obvious trolls are obvious.