R+L=J v.156

[Lord Varys]

Hm. Eddard I has his open admission that he himself loved Lyanna very much, but Robert loved her even more. Cersei later reinforces Robert's genuine feelings for Lyanna in Bran II when she mentions Robert's feelings for Lyanna to Jaime, and then points up the resurgence/reawakening of those feelings as a problem for their plans, making Robert even more restless (the memory of Lyanna and what could have been would have made the real Cersei and his marriage to her look ever more uglier).

Lyanna's love for Robert isn't really at issue so much - I think Lyanna may have been 'fond of him' prior to meeting Rhaegar but that then changed certain things for her but we don't know anything about that yet - it is more about Robert's feelings for her. Eddard I - and I think Eddard II later on as well - seems to establish that Robert's feelings for Lyanna, and Ned's opinion/interpretation of those feelings, were indeed genuine. If Robert (and Ned) rebelled because the Targaryens insulted them and besmirched their family honor then Ned would actually think about that more in those chapters.

And he would, of course, have no reason to keep quiet to Robert about Lyanna's true feelings prior to the outbreak of the Rebellion - assuming that he knew. Even thereafter he could have told him if their main reason for rebelling had been Aerys calling for their heads. At this point Robert wasn't yet Ned's king - once he sits on the Iron Throne insulting or provoking Robert becomes potentially dangerous, but not at this early stage. And considering that Ned would have had any reason to tell Robert anything about Rhaegar-Lyanna that he actually knew - if only to prevent Robert from hurting Lyanna by killing the man she had grown to love (not to mention the possibility/chance of Ned forging an alliance with Lyanna-Rhaegar against Aerys) - I think we can safely conclude that he, too, did believe what Robert believed at least in the beginning of the war.

There simply is no need to protect Robert's 'frail psyche' from the fact that Lyanna wasn't all that much into him or went with Rhaegar willingly. They could still take her from him, kill Rhaegar, and force Lyanna to marry Rhaegar, of course. Feelings don't matter in the whole world of arranged marriages.

The fact that all the Stark brothers supposedly looked angry at Harrenhal - which means Brandon, Eddard, and Benjen - could be a hint that Lyanna did not tell them about her feelings for Rhaegar/kept the whole thing a secret from them. After all, Ned describes himself as very devoted to Lyanna in Eddard I (I really stumbled over the rather curious description of 'a child-woman of surpassing loveliness' - that is not exactly the way the average talks or thinks of his own sister, and makes one wonder how brotherly Ned's feelings for Lyanna actually were, especially in light of the Arya-Jon romance from the original outline) and we also have reason that she also had a strong hold over Benjen (the vision from ADwD), so one would expect at least 1-2 Stark brothers to swallow their anger if they had known Lyanna's heart at that point.

[Han Snow]

well this is different.

[SFDanny]

Hm. Eddard I has his open admission that he himself loved Lyanna very much, but Robert loved her even more. Cersei later reinforces Robert's genuine feelings for Lyanna in Bran II when she mentions Robert's feelings for Lyanna to Jaime, and then points up the resurgence/reawakening of those feelings as a problem for their plans, making Robert even more restless (the memory of Lyanna and what could have been would have made the real Cersei and his marriage to her look ever more uglier).

LV, here's the quote in question.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. (AGoT 35)

It is a very interesting quote. Ned loves his sister with "all his heart." How does someone love another more than that? Is this just author's inability to find a superlative phrase to indicate "more"? Or is it the author trying to hint Robert's love for Lyanna is something more than love? Obsession perhaps? I think it is among our first clues not all is as it seems on the surface.

This is reinforced later in the same conversation when Robert speaks to Ned of his continuing wish to kill Rhaegar. 

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

<snip> section describing the fight at the Trident between Robert and Rhaegar </snip>

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

There was nothing Ned could say to that." (AGoT 36)

Fourteen years later Robert's hatred toward Rhaegar is still an obsession with him. He dreams of killing Rhaegar every night, and wishes more than a "thousand deaths" upon the long dead foe. Still later we find out Robert's obsessive hatred or Rhaegar extends to all Targaryens based largely on his belief that Rhaegar "raped" Lyanna. He proclaims as among his first acts as king that Rhaegar's dead children are no more than "dragonspawn" and tells Ned he want to assassinate Rhaegar's twelve-year-old sister. Robert clearly has an obsession concerning killing Targaryens, but does this mean he had an obsessive need to control his Lyanna? Not necessarily, but then we come to this quote.

"Rhaegar ... Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." (AGoT 359)

Robert puts this as a contest between the two men. A contest in which Rhaegar won even though Robert killed him. Moreover, Rhaegar has Lyanna in some afterlife even though one would expect Robert to believe the dead prince confined to the lowest circle of some Westerosi hell, and his beloved Lyanna in some heaven. How is this so unless Robert somehow knows that Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted to be together? How can Robert believe Lyanna as his martyred wife to be would in her victimhood be thrown in the same hell as the "rapist" Rhaegar? Something is not right here, and I think it is because deep down, no matter how much Robert protests, he knows Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him.

Lyanna's love for Robert isn't really at issue so much - I think Lyanna may have been 'fond of him' prior to meeting Rhaegar but that then changed certain things for her but we don't know anything about that yet - it is more about Robert's feelings for her. Eddard I - and I think Eddard II later on as well - seems to establish that Robert's feelings for Lyanna, and Ned's opinion/interpretation of those feelings, were indeed genuine. If Robert (and Ned) rebelled because the Targaryens insulted them and besmirched their family honor then Ned would actually think about that more in those chapters.

I think it is clear that Lyanna has Robert's character pegged pretty much spot on. The more we learn of Robert's conduct, the more we know she was right. It is not just the sixteen bastard children he fathers. it is the fact he fathers two of them (Bella and Gendry), at least, during the time he is supposed to be fighting a war to get Lyanna back. His love for Lyanna is "more" than Ned's love for his sister, but he can't control himself while he is supposedly trying to save his love, beyond all loves, from her captivity and rape. Something is not right here, indeed. Robert's obsession is for control of Lyanna in a contest with Rhaegar, not in winning Lyanna to love him like he supposedly loves her.

With Ned's thoughts about his family's honor, some of this is just, I think, the author trying not to disclose too much before he wants to do so. I also think we have example after example after example of the author telling us that it is a great dishonor to a family to break its promise in a marriage pact and to defy the wishes of one's lord and father. George doesn't have to say overtly that the actions of Rhaegar and Lyanna - if she went willingly - break tradition, usurp the Lord's rights, and bring dishonor to both House Baratheon and House Stark. He shows us in ever other example that it does. 

And he would, of course, have no reason to keep quiet to Robert about Lyanna's true feelings prior to the outbreak of the Rebellion - assuming that he knew. Even thereafter he could have told him if their main reason for rebelling had been Aerys calling for their heads. At this point Robert wasn't yet Ned's king - once he sits on the Iron Throne insulting or provoking Robert becomes potentially dangerous, but not at this early stage. And considering that Ned would have had any reason to tell Robert anything about Rhaegar-Lyanna that he actually knew - if only to prevent Robert from hurting Lyanna by killing the man she had grown to love (not to mention the possibility/chance of Ned forging an alliance with Lyanna-Rhaegar against Aerys) - I think we can safely conclude that he, too, did believe what Robert believed at least in the beginning of the war.

There simply is no need to protect Robert's 'frail psyche' from the fact that Lyanna wasn't all that much into him or went with Rhaegar willingly. They could still take her from him, kill Rhaegar, and force Lyanna to marry Rhaegar, of course. Feelings don't matter in the whole world of arranged marriages.

Ned has no reason to tell his friend Lyanna doesn't love him because love has nothing to do with her obligation to do her duty and marry Robert as the pact between their Houses lays out. Do you think Ned doesn't know his friend well enough to know it would make no difference in his actions if he confronts Robert about Lyanna's feelings? All it would do is perhaps change his obsessive love to obsessive hate toward Lyanna as well.

And as I said earlier, it may well be Ned agrees with Robert's feelings, and thinks his sister shames his family by not going through with the marriage. Ned changes his mind, I think, when he sees Robert's approval of the murder of Rhaegar's children, and when he is confronted with his dying sister's pleas to protect her child, but Ned was likely a man who thought duty to family trumped love until these events.

The fact that all the Stark brothers supposedly looked angry at Harrenhal - which means Brandon, Eddard, and Benjen - could be a hint that Lyanna did not tell them about her feelings for Rhaegar/kept the whole thing a secret from them. After all, Ned describes himself as very devoted to Lyanna in Eddard I (I really stumbled over the rather curious description of 'a child-woman of surpassing loveliness' - that is not exactly the way the average talks or thinks of his own sister, and makes one wonder how brotherly Ned's feelings for Lyanna actually were, especially in light of the Arya-Jon romance from the original outline) and we also have reason that she also had a strong hold over Benjen (the vision from ADwD), so one would expect at least 1-2 Stark brothers to swallow their anger if they had known Lyanna's heart at that point.

I'm assuming this is based on the account in The World of Ice & Fire (page 127) but if so how do you get this to include Benjen? There is no mention of Benjen's reaction in the text. In fact, it has long been my opinion that the reason Benjen leaves to join the Night's Watch has much to do with his support for his sister and the disagreement this caused within his family - including with Ned. I think Benjen, at least in part, cannot accept his family's demands on Lyanna in the face of her objections. He, like Lyanna, chooses to go his own way instead of stay with Ned and help with governing of the North. Just my guess, but I think it is a good one. I'll leave your reading of Ned's description of Lyanna alone. Suffice it to say I don't share your read of it.

Thanks, LV. Again, a interesting post, though one we have much in which we disagree.

[corbon]

The "reboot" makes it look like no one has discussed RLJ since September. I don't have anything innovative to add, but for those of us who believe RLJ to be the most logical answer to who are Jon's parents, I will say that I think Ned got lucky that no one at Starfall (other than any co-conspirators that might have been in the RLJ cover-up with Ned) knew enough about Wylla's whereabouts during the relevant period of time to be certain that she could not be Jon's mother. Otherwise, a lot more questions might have been asked, and those questions could have led to uncomfortable conclusions. And if those problematic conclusions got back to KL and Robert -- Ned might have had even bigger problems. 

No more lucky than with whatever happened with Ashara. Another thing that gives an easy 'oh I figured it out' conclusion for anyone thinking about his new bastard.

And, as I have pointed out before, unless Ned tells Robert outright that Wylla was Jon's mother (for which we have no actual supporting data in the text, and doesn't make sense in any way), then its not a problem for him if word gets back to KL that Wylla cannot be Jon's mother.
Unless Robert finds out Lyanna is Jon's mother, in which case it doesn't matter a whit what Ned said or didn't say.

Not to mention that that part might not be luck at all. Kings Landing comes after Starfall, so its possible Ned has an inkling of what is thought there already, whether from something he or Wylla said, or just from the behaviour of people around them and Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No more lucky than with whatever happened with Ashara. Another thing that gives an easy 'oh I figured it out' conclusion for anyone thinking about his new bastard.

And, as I have pointed out before, unless Ned tells Robert outright that Wylla was Jon's mother (for which we have no actual supporting data in the text, and doesn't make sense in any way), then its not a problem for him if word gets back to KL that Wylla cannot be Jon's mother.
Unless Robert finds out Lyanna is Jon's mother, in which case it doesn't matter a whit what Ned said or didn't say.

Not to mention that that part might not be luck at all. Kings Landing comes after Starfall, so its possible Ned has an inkling of what is thought there already, whether from something he or Wylla said, or just from the behaviour of people around them and Jon.

The bolded is more or less my point. When Ned leaves Starfall, I think he knows that Starfall believes that Wylla is the mother. I have suggested that this belief is one fostered by Wylla and Ned -- that they met at ToJ and Ned knew from talking to Wylla that Starfall could be led to believe that Wylla is the mother -- and they agreed between them to pass Wylla off as the mother in Starfall (and more important, in KL where I think Ned wanted to keep Robert from asking any questions so he needed a name that would hold up). But even if that it not the case and there was no "cover story" agreed to between Wylla and Ned, as your bolded statement suggests, by the time that Ned leaves Starfall, he likely knows that Starfall believes Wylla to be the mother. The lucky part is that Wylla exists at all -- i.e., that a woman that Starfall would not know could not be the mother (for example, because she was seen and clearly not pregnant during the time she needed to be pregnant with Jon) comes into Starfall nursing Jon. That circumstance is luck.

Without that luck, Ned has some risk that word could get back to Robert that Wylla could not be the mother. Robert (or someone like Varys) could get curious and start digging. Once they start digging, who knows what they might uncover or deduce. But by having Robert led to believe that Wylla is the mother (whether actively, passively or even accidentally led to this conclusion) keeps more questions from being asked. Given that the place where Wylla is living (or if your theory is correct, where she is originally from (or the area around Starfall) and ends up living after nursing Jon) believes she is the mother makes people from KL less likely to search for a different answer.

Ned could have had a situation where he did not have a plausible name to give. Where Wylla was known for some reason in Starfall not to be a candidate for mother -- and then Ned either could not have given that name to Robert or if Robert assumed that name, as you suggest, Robert might have discovered later that Wylla could not be the mother based on what people who know Wylla say when asked. And if that happened, Robert -- or someone like Varys -- might be more likely to investigate.

Maybe the investigation would come up with nothing anyway -- but keeping them from looking is a safer course. And having Robert believe the person is Wylla -- and having the people who know Wylla believe it is Wylla -- protects Jon. And so Ned was lucky that Wylla was someone that Starfall could believe to be the mother. There was no guarantee that such a woman would exist -- and having such a woman helped Ned in the end -- and so Ned was lucky that Wylla was a person who Starfall came to believe to be the mother. Ned had no way to guarantee that such a person would exist -- so the existence of such a person was lucky.

[Lord Varys]

Corbon,

it is actually not helping Ned's case if he just allows people - especially Robert - to reach the conclusion that 'the wetnurse'/Wylla is Jon Snow's mother because if he does it the right way all those people will actually believe and later remember that Eddard Stark told them just that. You don't remember what people literally said only what you think they said, and Robert would (and does, in your scenario) think that Ned told him that the mother of his bastard is a woman named Wylla.

Should Robert ever find out the truth Ned isn't going to get away with by 'Buddy, I never actually told you that this woman was the boy's mother, you were just foolish enough to come up with that idea all by yourself and I never corrected you' since he actually told Robert and the world the lie that the boy was actually his bastard son (a lie he must have told at least once since we know for a fact Lord Eddard Stark acknowledged and raised Jon Snow as his natural son).

If you want to maintain that Ned doesn't like to lie this scenario makes sense but we actually do know from his own POV that he told lies, so him literally telling the lie that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother doesn't strike me as unlikely in that scenario.

If Wylla was only Jon Snow's wetnurse, and if she doesn't have a clue or any suspicion about the real mother of Jon Snow then Ned does indeed risk nothing by allowing Robert to reach the conclusion that she is the mother (or by outright telling him that). But if she is in on that secret or can reasonably have guessed the truth then bringing her to Robert's attention would be potentially dangerous if we assume Ned considers Robert Baratheon a threat to the very life of Lyanna's son (which I don't buy in its entirety). It gives Robert the means to unravel the whole story. All he needs to do is to track down Wylla and question her sharply. This is why I assume that Ned would only have given away Wylla's name in connection to Jon Snow - either as his wetnurse or his mother - if he had reason to believe that Wylla would back up/corroborate his story.

The really big danger of this whole charade lies in the groundwork, and whether that's effective greatly hinges on what people actually believed/knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna for a fact. Did people know she was pregnant? Did people think she might have been pregnant? Did nobody ever think Rhaegar could even impregnate Lyanna? What is the official story of Lyanna Stark's death? What did Ned tell Robert about her death? I certainly don't believe he could have shut down that conversation easily. Hiding behind your 'brotherly grief' would be no good if you are talking to the man who romantically loved the woman in question with all his heard.

Whatever people believed about Lyanna and Rhaegar would greatly influence the probabilities whether people would easily or not so easily buy the 'Jon Snow story' or whether certain subtle/smart people would harbor some suspicions and eventually connect the dots. Cersei and Jaime apparently were very careful, too, yet Stannis still eventually grew suspicious and he and Jon Arryn began to investigate things.

Ned would have known what people believed about Lyanna much better than we right now do, and whatever sort of cover story he has in place he would have made some, presumably one in which he could actually eventually present a mother for his bastard in case he had to do it to dissuade any rumors about Lyanna-Rhaegar being the true parents. Realistically speaking Ned's word would have had weight, and the whole story about Lyanna-Rhaegar would have gained momentum (with Robert) as a (plausible) rumor. If Ned would be incapable of presenting a mother once pushed his whole story would collapse. But a convincing story involving a mother could still turn the tide at such a late point.

 

SFDanny,

well, 'all his heart' is a little too much for 'brotherly love'. As is talking about your own sister as 'a child-woman of surpassing loveliness' - it includes romantic and even sexual undertones. Whether this is supposed to mean that Robert was obsessed with Lyanna I don't know. I'm not so sure about that since Robert certainly was into other women as well, and simply had not the time to spend all that much time with Lyanna Stark to become so much obsessed about her, even if we go with the assumption that she and Robert spend some time together in the Vale when the Starks were visiting Ned there.

I think Robert's 'Rhaegar obsession' only took root after the Trident when he slowly became more and more unhappy with how his life turned out. Lyanna became a symbol for 'how things could have been different/better' and Rhaegar became the demon who took all that from him. I don't think all of that had been there from the start in the intensity it was later, but I'd agree with Yandel that Harrenhal most likely ended whatever sort of cousinly bond there might have been between Robert and Rhaegar prior to that incident.

The idea that Robert must have been really ignorant about what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar never made any sense, I'd agree there. What I wanted to bring up is the question when exactly Ned and Robert realized that there was a different layer to all that. And my guess is that this would not have been at the time Robert made that vow to kill Rhaegar.

Considering that Ned and Robert supposedly were 'closer than brothers' at this time (certainly closer than Robert and Stannis ever were) I think one can expect them to tell each other the truth. Brothers should be able to tell each other the truth, and if Ned knows or suspects what's really going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna he could have prevented the Trident and/or that Robert made Lyanna a widow. Ned's own business with House Targaryen would have been more with Aerys II than with Rhaegar in such a scenario, and for him there was always the chance of making a separate peace with Rhaegar and help him depose his father. 

Lyanna clearly judged Robert's character right, but that doesn't mean she did not like him, just that she had no illusions about the type of man he was. It also shows that she doesn't care or give all that much about 'love', suggesting that she never really had been in love (something that might change when she later meets Rhaegar).

As to Benjen:

That's part TWoIaF but also part Jon I, really. Benjen's approach of Jon doesn't really seem to suggest that he is aware/suspicious of his true identity, something that would have to be the case if he knew the details of the Lyanna-Rhaegar story. Ned is very concerned when he learns about Jon's desire to join the NW (apparently because he doesn't want Jon Snow to join the NW while he doesn't yet know who he actually is) - that is really all over the place when you read the conversation in Catelyn II - but Benjen actually reports this whole thing to Luwin instead of going directly to his brother about it (which one would assume he would do if he knew he was Lyanna's son).

I don't think Ben gives any other indication than 'It is stupid for 14-year-old to join the NW while he doesn't yet know what he gives up in the process, and there is a pretty good hint that he is speaking from experience there since Benjen Stark actually wasn't all that old or had fathered any bastards we know of (or any sexual experience) when he joined the NW.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

One point that I disagree about is whether Ned would have corrected Robert if Ned suspected that Lyanna was with Rhaegar willingly. I can tell you that I have a somewhat volatile sister. If I had information (especially uncorroborated information) that is likely to upset her -- I don't share it with her. It would only make the situation worse and upset her.

In addition, based on how Ned tends to play things "close to the vest" on most issues, I don't think he would have disclosed his suspicions to Robert -- assuming Ned had such suspicions (which I am not asserting he had -- just if he had). I don't think Ned and Robert talked about their feelings very much -- as close as they were, that is just not their personalities. Telling Robert would only hurt Robert even more -- and Ned could not be sure what happened in any event. But even if Ned knew for 100% certainty that Lyanna was with Rhaegar willingly, nothing could be made better by telling this information to Robert -- so I believe Ned would keep it to himself.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

well, those were very young men at the time, weren't they? And to forge such a brotherly friendship and affectation they must have been close is a very literal emotional sense. Sure, they no longer hung out at the Vale together all that often in the early 280s, but they are there together when the Rebellion breaks out up until after the Battle of Gulltown.

One assume Ned would not have remained silent had he known a way to reconcile things with Rhaegar - assuming he know or suspected stuff.

Other thing:

Daenerys II reinforces that Dany was the Princess of Dragonstone and thus Viserys' known and acknowledged heiress since she actually calls herself this during her wedding to Khal Drogo. For Viserys III and Dany the succession seems to be clear.

[MtnLion]

LV, you know that you are correct, it is quite clear from Daenerys that she knows that Rhaegar's son comes before her or Viserys.

[purple-eyes]

I am wondering what is response of Lyanna for the crowning. 

Both Ned and Brandon were angry for good reason. But how about the receiver Lyanna?

She probably did not behave happy and excited, only hid her happiness in her mind. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Avalatis]

Regarding Ned telling Robert his perception of Lyanna's abduction. Why? How Targaryen has greatly wronged his house, why would he go out of his way to dissuade Robert from his anger? Even if Ned was aware that Lyanna went willingly, that doesn't make Rhaegar's action not offensive. A married man ran off with his sister. Aerys in turn brutally kills his father and brother, leaving the ruling of Winterfel to him (which he never wanted). Then Aerys demands his head and his best friend's.

I see no reason for Ned to correct Robert on this. He owes nothing to house Targaryen. And Robert had a delusion of what Lyanna was, Ned wasn't going to be bursting that bubble.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

I agree with Avalantis. The point is that Ned telling Robert that Ned believes that Lyanna remained with Rhaegar willingly will NOT help the situation in any way. It will not make Robert less angry. It will not make Robert less determined to kill Rhaegar. It will not make Robert less willing to go to war (which is about saving Ned's and Robert's lives more than Lyanna in any regard). What possibly could be accomplished by Ned telling Rhaegar this information? And Ned may only have suspicions and not know for sure -- so even more reason not to tell. But even if it was more than suspicions, I see nothing positive that could come from Ned telling this information to Robert. So Ned would not have done so. So we can conclude nothing regarding what Ned might have known or thought on the topic at that time.

[purple-eyes]

LV--

I agree with Avalantis. The point is that Ned telling Robert that Ned believes that Lyanna remained with Rhaegar willingly will NOT help the situation in any way. It will not make Robert less angry. It will not make Robert less determined to kill Rhaegar. It will not make Robert less willing to go to war (which is about saving Ned's and Robert's lives more than Lyanna in any regard). What possibly could be accomplished by Ned telling Rhaegar this information? And Ned may only have suspicions and not know for sure -- so even more reason not to tell. But even if it was more than suspicions, I see nothing positive that could come from Ned telling this information to Robert. So Ned would not have done so. So we can conclude nothing regarding what Ned might have known or thought on the topic at that time.

Why would ned think Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar? Before he heard anything from Lyanna in TOJ, I think he completely thought rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna just as Brandon.  

The proof of abduction is strong (based on the resources of Brandon, likely from the Stark guards of Lyanna).

Aerys behaved so brutal and protective of Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar publicly showed his interest in Lyanna by offending his wife and damaging his own reputation and simply ignoring the honor of House stark, so this is another proof that he lusted Lyanna desperately and would have reason to abduct her. 

Lyanna did not have any information to Ned for one and half year (as far as we know). Again a good proof that she was held as a captive. 

Ned probably had no idea that Lyanna loved Rhaegar until he met her in TOJ.

 

 

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Why would ned think Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar? Before he heard anything from Lyanna in TOJ, I think he completely thought rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna just as Brandon.  

The proof of abduction is strong (based on the resources of Brandon, likely from the Stark guards of Lyanna).

Aerys behaved so brutal and protective of Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar publicly showed his interest in Lyanna by offending his wife and damaging his own reputation and simply ignoring the honor of House stark, so this is another proof that he lusted Lyanna desperately and would have reason to abduct her. 

Lyanna did not have any information to Ned for one and half year (as far as we know). Again a good proof that she was held as a captive. 

Ned probably had no idea that Lyanna loved Rhaegar until he met her in TOJ.

 

 

 

 

As I stated in one of my prior posts -- I am not arguing that Ned thought Lyanna was with Rhaegar willingly. My point is that we cannot assume that just because Ned did not tell Robert that Ned thought Lyanna might be with Rhaegar willingly that Ned did not come to that conclusion. My point is that even IF Ned came to that conclusion, he would not tell Robert because telling Robert would only make matters worse. So any conclusion we make about what Ned believed cannot reasonably be based on what he did or did not say to Robert about what Ned might have believed happened. 

I really don't know what Ned knew or believed at that time (obviously Lyanna told Ned the truth once Ned found her). Personally, my suspicion is that Ned just was not sure. I think that Ned knew that Lyanna was not happy about marrying Robert. I think Ned had a sense that Lyanna found Rhaegar intriguing after the tourney where he crowned her. I think Ned wanted to get to his sister to make sure she was ok and find out the truth. LV, however, argued that Ned must have believed exactly what Robert believed because Ned never corrected Robert in Robert's statements about Rhaegar, and that if Ned had any opinion about the situation different than Robert then Ned would have said so to Robert. I disagree with LV because, as I noted above, I don't think Ned would have corrected Robert or told Robert what Ned thought no matter what Ned really believed. Correcting Robert or suggesting any possible alternative only would have made Robert more angry.

[purple-eyes]

As I stated in one of my prior posts -- I am not arguing that Ned thought Lyanna was with Rhaegar willingly. My point is that we cannot assume that just because Ned did not tell Robert that Ned thought Lyanna might be with Rhaegar willingly that Ned did not come to that conclusion. My point is that even IF Ned came to that conclusion, he would not tell Robert because telling Robert would only make matters worse. So any conclusion we make about what Ned believed cannot reasonably be based on what he did or did not say to Robert about what Ned might have believed happened. 

I really don't know what Ned knew or believed at that time (obviously Lyanna told Ned the truth once Ned found her). Personally, my suspicion is that Ned just was not sure. I think that Ned knew that Lyanna was not happy about marrying Robert. I think Ned had a sense that Lyanna found Rhaegar intriguing after the tourney where he crowned her. I think Ned wanted to get to his sister to make sure she was ok and find out the truth. LV, however, argued that Ned must have believed exactly what Robert believed because Ned never corrected Robert in Robert's statements about Rhaegar, and that if Ned had any opinion about the situation different than Robert then Ned would have said so to Robert. I disagree with LV because, as I noted above, I don't think Ned would have corrected Robert or told Robert what Ned thought no matter what Ned really believed. Correcting Robert or suggesting any possible alternative only would have made Robert more angry.

I agree. Ned certainly knew Lyanna eloped willingly after TOJ. But Ned would never ever tell anybody Lyanna loved Rhaegar and left willingly, not even his own children. All his children thought Lyanna was raped. 

Why?

if Ned said Lyanna eloped with rhaegar, 

It is a big shame to House Stark (a wild stark woman dumped the fiancee and ran off with a married man and led a bloody war, Lyanna would be called whore for sure. whoever made marriages with them had to think twice, will this Stark daughter elope with another man?). 

it is a even bigger insult to Robert (his beloved lyanna dumped him like rubbish, she would rather run off with a married man in stead of becoming his wife)

More important, It is also a very bad thing for their cause among all northern lords (what the hell? your sister eloped with rhaegar? this is why so many northern people died? We thought she was kidnapped and raped to death! we thought we were doing justice for her! now you told us she was just enjoying her honey moon with prince? think about how poor Lady dustin would behave when she heard about this. )

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree. Ned certainly knew Lyanna eloped willingly after TOJ. But Ned would never ever tell anybody Lyanna loved Rhaegar and left willingly, not even his own children. All his children thought Lyanna was raped. 

Why?

if Ned said Lyanna eloped with rhaegar, 

It is a big shame to House Stark (a wild stark woman dumped the fiancee and ran off with a married man and led a bloody war, Lyanna would be called whore for sure. whoever made marriages with them had to think twice, will this Stark daughter elope with another man?). 

it is a even bigger insult to Robert (his beloved lyanna dumped him like rubbish, she would rather run off with a married man in stead of becoming his wife)

More important, It is also a very bad thing for their cause among all northern lords (what the hell? your sister eloped with rhaegar? this is why so many northern people died? We thought she was kidnapped and raped to death! we thought we were doing justice for her! now you told us she was just enjoying her honey moon with prince? think about how poor Lady dustin would behave when she heard about this. )

 

 

The debate with LV -- and the original post of mine that you quoted as well as the more recent post of mine just quoted -- have nothing to do with what Ned would after ToJ. The discussion is about what Ned believed after Lyanna disappeared and before the war ended. LV argued that Robert indicated that he had vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna. LV argued that because Ned did not indicate to Robert that Lyanna might be with Rhaegar willingly that Ned must have the same information and belief as Robert. I disagree with LV because even before the death of Rhaegar -- while Rhaegar and Lyanna were missing -- speculating that Lyanna might be with Rhaegar willingly to Robert would only upset Robert more and thus Ned would not do it no matter what Ned knew or believed.

No one thinks Ned would have said anything to Robert after Ned learned the truth. Of course everyone (at least RLJ believers) believe that Ned had to keep his mouth shut on this issue at that point. The debate is about what Ned knew and believe BEFORE the death of Rhaegar.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

it would depend on what he knew/suspected. If he knew/suspected that Lyanna was actually in love with Rhaegar or if he even know/suspected that they were married then this would all be quite interesting. For instance, the reason why Robert vowed to kill Rhaegar may have been because he and Ned both believed at this point that Rhaegar forced Lyanna into a marriage with him at sword point.

Ned keeping silent on anything he knew during the Rebellion makes no sense at all, though. Eddard Stark was the Lord of Winterfell since before the beginning of the Rebellion, and as such Ned had both the authority and the power to risk a quarrel with Robert and to force him to do things his way rather than his own if he wanted the support of House Stark.

The idea that Ned would agree to kill a man who is loved by Lyanna or even her husband in a marriage that was consensual - assuming that he had any inclination that this was the case - is a pretty big stretch. At this point Eddard Stark's interest would have been to save whatever remained of his family - which had been attacked by Aerys, not Rhaegar - not to pursue a cause of action that might easily result in Lyanna's death or permanent unhappiness.

In general, I just wanted to point out this whole thing about Robert there. His vow to kill Rhaegar, apparently referring to a specific event at a particular point in time. Something that might come up again in later books.

Say, if Richard Lonmouth ever pops up we might get a rather deep insight into the Rhaegar-Robert relationship considering the fact that Meera's story depicts Richard drinking with his liege lord Robert Baratheon at Harrenhal.

[purple-eyes]

The debate with LV -- and the original post of mine that you quoted as well as the more recent post of mine just quoted -- have nothing to do with what Ned would after ToJ. The discussion is about what Ned believed after Lyanna disappeared and before the war ended. LV argued that Robert indicated that he had vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna. LV argued that because Ned did not indicate to Robert that Lyanna might be with Rhaegar willingly that Ned must have the same information and belief as Robert. I disagree with LV because even before the death of Rhaegar -- while Rhaegar and Lyanna were missing -- speculating that Lyanna might be with Rhaegar willingly to Robert would only upset Robert more and thus Ned would not do it no matter what Ned knew or believed.

No one thinks Ned would have said anything to Robert after Ned learned the truth. Of course everyone (at least RLJ believers) believe that Ned had to keep his mouth shut on this issue at that point. The debate is about what Ned knew and believe BEFORE the death of Rhaegar.

Oh, I see. 

Here is my opinion. I agreed with LV. 

Ned shared the similar opinion as brandon and Robert before TOJ. He agreed that Rhaegar captured Lyanna and held her as a captive. 

Of course he is not as extreme as Brandon or Robert since he is a quiet and nice guy. 

But he still thought Rhaegar was a bad man and needs to be punished (by death).

He never felt angry about Rhaegar's death. He thought he totally deserved it (before TOJ). he just pitied his wife and young children. 

After TOJ, he suddenly found the truth and had a complicated feeling, this may even play some part in his reconciliation with Robert. 

His sister indeed betrayed Robert (in his eyes). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

UL,

it would depend on what he knew/suspected. If he knew/suspected that Lyanna was actually in love with Rhaegar or if he even know/suspected that they were married then this would all be quite interesting. For instance, the reason why Robert vowed to kill Rhaegar may have been because he and Ned both believed at this point that Rhaegar forced Lyanna into a marriage with him at sword point.

Ned keeping silent on anything he knew during the Rebellion makes no sense at all, though. Eddard Stark was the Lord of Winterfell since before the beginning of the Rebellion, and as such Ned had both the authority and the power to risk a quarrel with Robert and to force him to do things his way rather than his own if he wanted the support of House Stark.

The idea that Ned would agree to kill a man who is loved by Lyanna or even her husband in a marriage that was consensual - assuming that he had any inclination that this was the case - is a pretty big stretch. At this point Eddard Stark's interest would have been to save whatever remained of his family - which had been attacked by Aerys, not Rhaegar - not to pursue a cause of action that might easily result in Lyanna's death or permanent unhappiness.

In general, I just wanted to point out this whole thing about Robert there. Is vow to kill Rhaegar, apparently referring to a specific event at a particular point in time. Something that might come up again in later books.

Say, if Richard Lonmouth ever pops up we might get a rather deep insight into the Rhaegar-Robert relationship considering the fact that Meera's story depicts Richard drinking with his liege lord Robert Baratheon at Harrenhal.

Maybe Rickard told Ned and or robert where is TOJ!

Rickard felt bad that rhaegar stole Robert's bride and Aerys asked for his head unjustly. 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Just reached the point in Eddard II in my rereading thing, and it is quite evident to me that there was a really massive quarrel and a severe fallout between Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon in the wake of Robert's 'dragonspawn' line. Ned's memory continues talking about how 'not even Jon Arryn was able to calm that storm', suggesting that the quarrel continued, with Ned probably pushing Robert to punish Tywin for the murder of the children, and/or at least investigate who actually did it and punish them instead.

A 'storm' as a metaphor for a quarrel usually doesn't only consist of 2-3 exchanged sentences, not to mention that it would have taken some time for such good friends as Robert and Ned were at this point to reach the point where they were yelling at each other and decide to end/risk ending their friendship over this. Just as it takes some time later on during the Small Council session to reach that point - possibly even longer back then considering that the younger Ned wouldn't have been as disillusioned with Robert as the AGoT Ned is at the point of their confrontation.

I think we have therefore pretty good evidence to assume that Eddard Stark did not necessarily consider Robert Baratheon is good friend by the time he reached the tower. That only changed again after Lyanna's death, and Ned may then actually have actively tried reconcile with him not so much because he still liked as he did before but also because he thought the Jon Snow plan hinged on him being on very good terms with the new king.