R+L=J v.156

[J. Stargaryen]

 

Possibly, but if that's the case he underestimated the possible ramifications of his actions pretty badly.

 

An interesting political maneuver to say the least.  
 

 

I doubt he planned on things happening the way they did. However, he was really only one victory over one foe away from being successful. If he killed Robert instead of the other way around, Rhaegar probably would have been in charge of the 7K one way or the other.

[purple-eyes]

Its not exactly favor, but the roles they play. Its referenced in the book that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon being tO two, but I don't remember where.

I do not remember anything in the book which said rhaegar thought jon as the PTWP.
He more likely thought him as the third head and a possible bride for aegon.
The only reason for this changing was that he said "song of ice and fire" then some fans speculated that rhaegar suddenly noticed that aegon can not be the PTWP because he did not have blood of stark.
If he really thought so, he should not have thought himself and aegon as PTWP from the very beginning.

[UnViserion]

 

I doubt he planned on things happening the way they did. However, he was really only one victory over one foe away from being successful. If he killed Robert instead of the other way around, Rhaegar probably would be in charge of the 7K one way or the other.

 

That's what really gives me pause about him doing all this on his own initiative. The plan itself is pretty bad really.  It seems wholly out of character from what we've heard of him.  On the other hand, I don't think we've heard quite enough about him to make a judgments call on his true character either way.

 

The end results don't look too good on paper tho IMO.

[Alia of the knife]

As far as motivations go, again, I go back to the author himself.

Look at all the relationships in the book, almost all of them are conflict of The heart.

GRRM as a student of history is not fond organized religion and people who chase prophesy are questionable.

He likes writing about the hard, sometimes shameful decisions even good people make.

Love vs. duty is a major theme. Rhaegar on the surface may have told himself he was doing for Lyanna for some greater good, but deep down, that it was his heart makes perfect sense for what seems illogical And nonsensical.

[Ser Creighton]

I do not remember anything in the book which said rhaegar thought jon as the PTWP.
He more likely thought him as the third head and a possible bride for aegon.
The only reason for this changing was that he said "song of ice and fire" then some fans speculated that rhaegar suddenly noticed that aegon can not be the PTWP because he did not have blood of stark.
If he really thought so, he should not have thought himself and aegon as PTWP from the very beginning.

I think she means Rhaegar changed his mind about himself being the PtwP because of Aegon. Yes we all know Rhaegar did not mention Jon.

[purple-eyes]

As far as motivations go, again, I go back to the author himself.
Look at all the relationships in the book, almost all of them are conflict of The heart.
GRRM as a student of history is not fond organized religion and people who chase prophesy are questionable.
He likes writing about the hard, sometimes shameful decisions even good people make.
Love vs. duty is a major theme. Rhaegar on the surface may have told himself he was doing for Lyanna for some greater good, but deep down, that it was his heart makes perfect sense for what seems illogical And nonsensical.

Right. I got you.
He just did something all husbands wanted to do but most of the time had no guts and power and money to do: dump your old and weak wife and annoying baby children and run off with a young and hot teenager woman who can give you such hot sex that you have to name your new love nest as "tower of joy".
He is so brilliant to find so many excuses for himself, such as having sex with this woman is the only way to save the world. I am just doing it so reluctantly for the greater good! Not for my personal pleasure!
Too lucky that his prophecy did not tell him that his woman of prophecy is somebody like old nan.
If so, will he still run off with her? Or will he say: damn it! This prophecy must be wrong!

[purple-eyes]

I think she means Rhaegar changed his mind about himself being the PtwP because of Aegon. Yes we all know Rhaegar did not mention Jon.

I think she clearly means rhaegar changed his mind from aegon to jon.
In other words, she means he favored jon over aegon.

[IceFire125]

Didn't the Targaryens on Dragonstone already follow the Faith of the Seven? And didn't the Faith already hold sway in the Vale and the Stormlands at the time of the Conquest? Sharra Arryn and Argelic Durrandon were offering Aegon a third wife, before the fighting began.

 

Yes.

 

Although they are not religious in following tFotS, they prayed before sending the ravens to declare that there will only be one king in Westeros.

 

Lord Aegon and his sisters (wives) took counsel with them and visited the castle sept to pray to the Seven of Westeros as well, though he had never before been accounted a pious man.

 

**so somewhere on Dragonstone or one of his sworn houses' castles, they have built a castle sept for people to worship.

[Ser Creighton]

I think she clearly means rhaegar changed his mind from aegon to jon.
In other words, she means he favored jon over aegon.

I'll wait for her to answer, she may be addressing the issue of ice and fire in relation to him and Lyanna which he mentions at Aegon's birth. Then the world book touches on the pact of Ice and fire between house Targ and Stark. In which case I understand what she is saying about that possibility. Though that still relates to prophecy.

 

It's a bit like how Aemon on his death bed references the three heads and feels if he had been younger he could of been one. As we know he corresponded with Rhaegar on the matter of that prophecy it suggests that they both believed the three heads were Targaryen children. Aemon clearly understood the war for the dawn, prophecy, tPtwP, Lightbringer, the Three heads, and so on.

 

ETA: As for the love aspect, in some cases I understand the argument I just to agree with many peoples theories on how it happened, if it did happen. Which is why I brought up Dany and Drogo, while clearly not conventional even in that extreme situation with that monster, love was found, to an extent I don't want to talk about it, Drogo makes me uncomfortable.

[purple-eyes]

I'll wait for her to answer, she may be addressing the issue of ice and fire in relation to him and Lyanna which he mentions at Aegon's birth. Then the world book touches on the pact of Ice and fire between house Targ and Stark. In which case I understand what she is saying about that possibility. Though that still relates to prophecy.
 
It's a bit like how Aemon on his death bed references the three heads and feels if he had been younger he could of been one. As we know he corresponded with Rhaegar on the matter of that prophecy it suggests that they both believed the three heads were Targaryen children. Aemon clearly understood the war for the dawn, prophecy, tPtwP, Lightbringer, the Three heads, and so on.

Many people said rhaegar noticed that a child from lyanna would fit more for " song of fire and ice". So he decided a future jon would be PTWP, not aegon.
The truth is, rhaegar said: aegon is PTWP and aegon's song is song of ice and fire after the birth of aegon.
Rhaegar did not change his mind yet at that moment, which actually happened one year after he met with lyanna. If lyanna's ice can change his mind, it would be changed long ago.
He turned to lyanna because he heard that Elia can not have more children.
If elia can give him more children, he will not turn to lyanna.

[UnViserion]

As far as motivations go, again, I go back to the author himself.
 

 

As far as discussion goes, this is about as useful as "take it up with GRRM." It sounds more like you coming to a conclusion that you like and saying it fits the overall narrative because, well, you like it.  I've read the books too and have come to an entirely different conclusion than you have. It is somewhat consistent in terms of the love vs duty theme, but it is very inconsistent with respect to the intricate, complex plots we've seen in other areas of the story. And we're intentionally left in the dark about it, allowing us to formulate our own thoughts and rush to other judgments.

 

This 'love' story between Rhaegar and Lyanna seems forced and weak to me. Would not surprise me if it was a red herring.

 

edit- way too many spaces at the end of this. sorry.

[Ser Creighton]

Many people said rhaegar noticed that a child from lyanna would fit more for " song of fire and ice". So he decided a future jon would be PTWP, not aegon.
The truth is, rhaegar said: aegon is PTWP and aegon's song is song of ice and fire after the birth of aegon.
Rhaegar did not change his mind yet at that moment, which actually happened one year after he met with lyanna. If lyanna's ice can change his mind, it would be changed long ago.
He turned to lyanna because he heard that Elia can not have more children.
If elia can give him more children, he will not turn to lyanna.

Yes Rhaegar did say that about Aegon I know, it's right there in my posts and some of my posts dating back years. It's a rather well known quote. Some things I think everyone needs to accept about the debate, and this is only my opinion. Is that Rhaegar can change his mind about the Prince we know this as a fact, he does it as I mentioned above. That love can be found in many places as seen with Dany and Drogo, and that Prophecy has it's hand in place with this story.

 

She is correct, Martin does not like characters chasing prophecy, he has said as much regarding the dangers of prophecy. Of course we know characters do, do this in the series. The human heart in conflict, the law of unintended consequences, "cough" the sun and the moon, are all themes. Which reminds me, new Sun and Moon coming regarding this story, and it's really interesting.

[UnViserion]

Too lucky that his prophecy did not tell him that his woman of prophecy is somebody like old nan.
If so, will he still run off with her? Or will he say: damn it! This prophecy must be wrong!

 

:agree:  :lol:
 

[Ser Creighton]

 

:agree:  :lol:
 

People interpret prophecy how they want to in the series. Mel would be a great example of this.

[purple-eyes]

People interpret prophecy how they want to in the series. Mel would be a great example of this.

Exactly.
Rhaegar wanted to have sex with this younger woman, so he decided the prophecy means that he needed to have sex with this woman to save the world.
If he is just going for "ice and fire", he can always try to make lyanna marry viserys or ask his dad to pick up polygamy to marry lyanna as second queen, either one will be the same as " a song of ice and fire" . And either one would cause way less trouble than he did it by himself.
Why did not he do that？
Because he wanted to sleep with lyanna, that is it.
Some People really should stop whitewashing him and making him 100% perfect and correct.

[purple-eyes]

To be more clear, I do not have any problem with rhaegar to love lyanna and marry her as his second wife.
He is in a loveless marriage and he is a prince, sure he can try to pick up polygamy tradition for his true love.
But please be brave and honorable and do it in front of people. Please do not leave a big mess and tragedy to his family. Elia and his children are innocent and pure victims.
If he secretly married with lyanna, then came back and declared it to his dad, house stark and faith and said he is ready to give up his throne and be exiled to essos for this, or he raised a rebellion like daemon after beIng rejected, I will respect him much much more.
But he is so cheap and coward and greedy and wanted to have everything.
So he totally deserved that spike of war-hammer.

[IceFire125]

 

Exactly.
Rhaegar wanted to have sex with this younger woman, so he decided the prophecy means that he needed to have sex with this woman to save the world.
If he is just going for "ice and fire", he can always try to make lyanna marry viserys or ask his dad to pick up polygamy to marry lyanna as second queen, either one will be the same as " a song of ice and fire" . And either one would cause way less trouble than he did it by himself.
Why did not he do that？
Because he wanted to sleep with lyanna, that is it.
Some People really should stop whitewashing him and making him 100% perfect and correct.

 

To be more clear, I do not have any problem with rhaegar to love lyanna and marry her as his second wife.

He is in a loveless marriage and he is a prince, sure he can try to pick up polygamy tradition for his true love.
But please be brave and honorable and do it in front of people. Please do not leave a big mess and tragedy to his family. Elia and his children are innocent and pure victims.
If he secretly married with lyanna, then came back and declared it to his dad, house stark and faith and said he is ready to give up his throne and be exiled to essos for this, or he raised a rebellion like daemon after beIng rejected, I will respect him much much more.
But he is so cheap and coward and greedy and wanted to have everything.
So he totally deserved that spike of war-hammer.

 

LOL! I'm sorry but you're all over the place.  Talk about feelings being tortured, poor soul.

 

Why do you still post here when this is not a happy place for you, being that most of us here don't share the same views as you regarding Rhaegar (the evil, monstrous man)?

 

You said that in your country's forum they view Rhaegar negatively? yet I see you here torturing yourself with trying to convince us that Rhaegar isn't all that good.  

 

It's okay to agree to disagree.  ^_^

[purple-eyes]

LOL! I'm sorry but you're all over the place.  Talk about feelings being tortured, poor soul.
 
Why do you still post here when this is not a happy place for you, being that most of us here don't share the same views as you regarding Rhaegar (the evil, monstrous man)?
 
You said that in your country's forum they view Rhaegar negatively? yet I see you here torturing yourself with trying to convince us that Rhaegar isn't all that good.  
 
It's okay to agree to disagree.  ^_^

No. I am crystal clear that I can never persuade other people.
Only GRRM can.
I just feel that somebody should give some different opinion before we get the truth.
One thousand readers have one thousand hamlets. (Sorry, not be original quote, just my poor translation)
And I never said he is monstrous or evil. This is not my word at all.
He is beloved and capable and sad and romantic and good looking and nice, sure.
But he is not a flawless saint and we do not need to find good excuses or reasons for all of his actions.

[UnViserion]

 

LOL! I'm sorry but you're all over the place.  Talk about feelings being tortured, poor soul.

 

Why do you still post here when this is not a happy place for you, being that most of us here don't share the same views as you regarding Rhaegar (the evil, monstrous man)?

 

You said that in your country's forum they view Rhaegar negatively? yet I see you here torturing yourself with trying to convince us that Rhaegar isn't all that good.  

 

It's okay to agree to disagree.  ^_^

A few days ago I might have agreed.

 

But no, if Rhaegar did the things most of you think he did, for the reasons most of you think he did, he really is a total scumbag.

 

I mean, on the one hand people say 'he can't be blamed for lacking the foresight to think about the consequences his actions would cause..' then in the same breath those same people will turn around and give him credit for banging Lyanna until tPTWP comes along-- what a visionary!   :hat:

 

This is insanely reckless behavior. Incredibly insulting to his wife and family, sparks a rebellion for his mad father to deal with.. Directly insults two of the Great Houses he hopes to one day rule, and is an embarrassingly arrogant, self absorbed amount of stock to place in the power of ones own seed.  

And this is supposed to be a love story? Aye yai yai people :whip:
 

 

*edit - if this is the narrative we're supposed to believe, purple-eyes and others are 100% correct in their assessment of him

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

 

the Targaryens on Dragonstone had built a sept, and supposedly adorned it with idols made from wood from the ships that carried them there (although that actually sounds a lot like a pious lie - the Targaryens had no reason to dismantle their ships since they grew to wealth and power through trade thereafter). But there is no hint that they actually were pious. Gyldayn subtly questions that by stressing that Aegon was no pious man which makes it likely that his visit to the castle sept before the Conquest was nothing but a political ploy to win the support of the Faith (or rather not antagonize it). Aegon later went to great lengths to show proper devotion in public acts to all the High Septons ruling throughout his reign (six, I believe).

 

But there is no hint that any of the Targaryen siblings - or their children and grandchildren - were religious or even pious in any meaningful sense of the word. Rhaenys was sensual free-spirited woman, Visenya a stern and unwomanly warrior as well as a reputed sorcerer. Aenys dabbled in alchemy, and Maegor we don't even have to mention. Granted, we know too little about Aegon, Rhaena, and Viserys to make a decision there, but Jaehaerys and Alysanne would have been too smart and well-educated to fell for religious stuff. And despite the fact that Barth was a septon, he most likely wasn't a believer, either. The Faith only seems to have been his way to get an education considering his humble origins. Jaehaerys and Alysanne deciding to hand over two of their daughters to the Faith seems to be more a way to get them out of the way to keep the succession simpler than because they were driven by their piety. And with Maegelle they apparently made the right choice, but one really wonders what made they decide to force Saera into a motherhouse, too.

 

The Targaryens up to the Dance don't look very pious, either. The first one to take the stuff really seriously is the befuddled Baelor, and his charisma draws at least Rhaena into the clutches of the Faith as well. But without the dragons religion would have begun to play a much bigger role in keeping the smallfolk and the lords down, and subsequently the Faith may have received more power over the minds of the princes (especially prominent during the reigns of Baelor and Daeron II - to Maekar the High Septon actually seems to be a guy you can talk to about your private issues).

 

The Unworthy:

 

The 'fake wedding' couldn't have been an elaborate practical joke on Megette unless she was retarded. She already had a husband at that point, and this marriage had never been annulled. Both Aegon and Megette would have been bigamists if this had been a real wedding. Thus we would have to assume that Megette either knew that it was (supposed to be) fake or she was actually willing to have two husbands just as Aegon would have two wives. I find the latter option very unlikely.

 

The whole thing seems to have been a big show for all wedding guests - indicating that Aegon and Megette actually wanted to marry but dared not/could not - allowing these two lovers to get the only wedding they could. The obvious danger/potential scandal there lie in the fact that any of the guests could later have claimed it had been a real wedding. How could Aegon 'prove' if he was not married if the 'mummer septon' had died or disappeared by then?