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From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter


Sly Wren

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I'll have to look at the passage again too (have to find the book) as I was operating on memory. She didn't turn to face it as I said (though she does turn at another point), but she did throw  herself forward to escape it at the urging of those ghosts and it caught her anyway.  It doesn't change my conclusion though I had better check the whole thing in context.  I think that there being one sword is far more likely than more - normally the regalia of a kingdom is passed down from heir to heir and the World Book confirms there was only one G0d-Emperor at a time, so I stick by the one and only Dawn theory.  How many hundreds, maybe thousands, of years did the Starks hold the original Ice sword before Torrhen bent the knee and it got melted into the Iron Throne?  (I still haven't read how Ice became Dawn theory but will today.)

 

Thae darkness behind is the cold darkness, she throws herself forward and is burned. SO no, in the wake the dragon dream, the thing behind her did not catch her. She woke the dragon, and her blood burned. That's what happens when Lightbringer wakes dragons from the moon - its "moon blood" boils, blackens, and coats the black meteors in black blood... the greasy black bloodstone. 

 

Whether Dawn is the one and only sword passed down by the GEotD, or just the last or only surviving one, really, it's the same thing. 

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:cheers:
And you're right on ALJ--I think I may be in a bit of denial.

To add onto that, have you seen Wolfmaid's Robert+L=J essay? Quite thought provoking.

On new topics--from the last thread:
 
@LADY DYANNA
Posted Today, 12:09 AM2. Agree on the fire magic. And that Asshai is parallel to heart of winter in Bran's dream.
In one way, I almost agree with this. However, might we not possibly see a parallel with Valyria in the destruction at Hardhome? No one seems to know what happened there either. In addition it is attributed with a similar description to Valyria after its destruction, to the point that I've seen speculation that the destruction there was caused by a volcano. Maybe it was an icy parallel to Valyria's Fire magic destruction.
 
Me: I agree on Hardhome. Problem is--burned up. Like the other places. Everyone knows to be afraid, but the stories are lacking. Whereas in the North, there are fables and tales of how to behave and not.

Well, we definitely hear many more tales about the goings on in the North, but when it comes right down to it, how much more do we truly know? No one seems to know very much at all about what caused the destruction at Hardhome. Just like Valyria, we hear that it is haunted and to stay away. For that matter, as much as we hear about the long night how much do we actually know and then how much of that is actually true? At the very least I think that it's worth considering what information we can take away from noting parallels between the two regions.
 

@LADY DYANNA
Posted Today, 12:36 AM

snapback.png

 But to take it one step further, might this be just a step in the direction that she needs to go and not the final destination? She needs to associate herself with the dragons and with fire and blood to get to ultimate end game, her strong control over both. We see this in the beginning with the Stark kids as well. The I'm not a wolf syndrome. It is only in accepting that the dire wolves are a part of them, that they are able to in the end gain control over the wolves as opposed to allowing the wolves to control them.
 
Me: Agreed--but Bran is also getting advice on the dangers of over-identifying with and getting lost in Summer. How it messes up his ability to live as and with humans. And Rickon seems rather far gone.
 
Seems like they need to connect, but also balance. So, I guess I'm mostly worried about Dany's losing balance.

I guess it's all going to depend on who reaches Dany first and can establish trust with her or if she is able to make the correct decisions on her own. Rickon is still so young. I'd still like to hold out some hope for him. Hopefully Osha provided him with some good support on his journey.

ETA:
@LADY DYANNA
 Posted Today, 01:21 AM
Lady Dyanna, on 13 Sept 2015 - 2:34 PM, said:
I haven't gotten very far as of yet. I just happened to notice the colors fading to b&w when Sansa goes down a spiral stair and out into the garden of snow. I think there's a lot of foreshadowing in the scene that follows. Then I kept reading and when Sansa later goes to meet Lysa in the throne room I caught that echo feeling. I have a thread open over on The Last Hearth trying to do a reread and SW has been helping me out. I haven't had a lot of time to put into it as of yet unfortunately.
 
Me: [font='helvetica neue']On that score--it's interesting (to me at least) that Jon's "ice is magic!" moment outside Craster's and Sansa' "snow is magic! and innocence!" moment at the Eyrie both happen at dawn. Yet Jon's is in light--life and color back to the world. Sansa's is in the grey light--down a spiral stair into a black and white world. More like death.[/font]
 
[font='helvetica neue']So, dawn for both of them--a liminal space, opening up access to see things not otherwise seen.[/font]

It is interesting, however, there is a bit of a time difference between the two. Sansa's starts prior to the dawn. It is still night time when Sansa takes the winding stairs into a world of blacks and whites and greys, similar to it being night time when Jon enters the cave with Ygritte. Dawn only begins to break once Sansa awakens on her knees. The sky turns pale grey (Stark colors) and the bushes a dark green. Color begins to occur. Sansa's sequence is just mushed together back to back whereas Jon's descent and awakening are spread further apart and across two chapters.
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Very good discussion so far.  I'm curious if there's elements of both sides in the truth.

 

Something I'm curious about though.  If LML's theorum is true or at least on the right track; as the Bloodstone Emperor usurps the Amethyst Empress, say Dawn belonged to her (the line yes, but she was is possession and rightfully so) and as Lady Barbrey suggests, her children or supporters etc escape and flee to what is Oldtown, this leaves the BSE with nadda.  Now that doesn't necessarily mean anything but we know he was very deep into sorcery and blood magic.  As well we have textual evidence that when the Valyrians (yes well past the proto-geo-Valyrians) produced their Valyrian blades they were done so with spells and perhaps blood magic.  But, what isn't talked about is what material makes up the actual substance of the blades?  If Dawn was a fallen star, or more specifically, a piece of the moon that was shattered by the red comet, as per LML's theorum, does it differ in its metal content than Valyrian blades?  To clarify, could it be that Dawn was forged of another type of magic?  What element or magic within it are we to believe gives it it's completely distinct appearance and what makes it emanate light rather than soaking it up?

 

It seems quite sensible that with the BSE's sorcery and blood/shadow magic that Valyrian swords drink the light, like Asshai does as well.  Now there is a lot of time in between the BSE and his descendants' reign to the reign of the Valyrians, but I think it's being suggested that their magic is based on the same 'elements', i.e. blood and shadow magics.

 

So how do we reconcile Dawn?  I think LML may have suggested it was an element more in the core of the Moon then other elements that were layered over it, which then suggests that those outer elements of moon-rock were the materials that make/made up Valyrian swords.  However, do we have anything in the text to suggest that the Valyrians were actually working with meteorites to make Valyrian blades?  I'm a bit skeptical of that, the text suggested to me that it was their spells more than anything.

 

No, that's some else's idea. I suspect Dawn, if it made from a meteor, is from the comet itself before it blew up the moon, or from the ice moon, a piece of shrapnel or something. 

 

Here's another conundrum.  Valyrian steel can withstand Others' blades of Ice and their associated magics.  So can Dawn correct?  Or perhaps more specifically, Dawn 'can' but doesn't need to because the light-force emanating from it is enough to kill them, does that make sense?  If this is true, it seems that whatever magic Dawn has infused with it (if any) is working at the same purpose or benefit if you will, that Valyrian swords do.  Does that then turn any theories on the Others and their origins on its head?  

 

We don't know any of that. We don't know if V Steel or Dawn can fight the Other's blades. No show talk, and its not relevant anyway, because we don't know what the show is changing (besides almost everything).

 

I mean, if the BSE theorum is true, and they're a corrupted section of humanity, and the AE's line is the more purer form, and the story is about their reclamation of their kingdom or humanity as a whole (afterall, there was plenty of peace and prosperity until the BSE came along); then what role do the Others really play?  Sure we can say they're in opposition to all humanity or perhaps all light, but then doesn't that sort of align them more towards the BSE?  Yet, Valyrian steel kills them?  Does not compute.  Something is missing.

 

Yeah, it's all speculation. There are clues Azor Ahai might have become the NK - Stannis basically does this. I mentioned the model of the Kingsguard, white snowy knights in snowy armor, pale shadows (just like the Others are pale shadows), who serve a dragon king dressed in black and red. Mance, the leader of the wildlings (who stand in for the Others in some metaphors), has the red and black cape and common symbolism with Rhaegar. 

I do actually think those black bloodstone meteors might have been involved in Other creation. They seem to be associated with necromancy and creating twisted magical beings. And the Others have inner fire - blue stars are the hottest stars, actually, and blue flame is the hottest flame. Their eyes burn, and nothing burns like the cold. It's almost like the Others have a different sort of frozen fire - fire turned to icefire. Blue cold fire. Something like that. So maybe fire magic was frozen in part of the equation. 

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I'm hoping to see more of Edric--if for no other reason than I want that kid to get out of the mess alive--seems like a nice kid.
 
But I doubt he has the sword with him, and getting all the way back to Starfall and then back up to the Wall--the logistics of a normal, temporal moving of Dawn are difficult.
 
Which is why I think (emphasis on the uncertainty of this proposition) that the Sword of the Morning presenting itself to Jon might be a clue. Arthurian myths have swords that present themselves in time of need. Same with other traditions.
 
Might even explain why Dawn isn't in the North--has to go back to whence it came after purpose is fulfilled. We were playing ideas like those on the first thread. Don't think we came to a consensus, so very happy to hear all opinions.
 
But, to overcome the time and space issues, seems like a magical presentation might be an option.

Sansa will meet Jon in the underworld with an ironwood stump in her pocket from which he might pull Dawn? ;)
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Bryen Farring, Stannis's squire, froze to death, and was then burned, fwiw:

 

 

“The serjeant was the clever one,” Asha said to Aly Mormont. “He goaded Suggs into killing him.” She wondered if the same trick might work twice, should her own turn come.

 

The four victims were chained up back-to-back, two to a stake. There they hung, three live men and one dead one, as the Lord of Light’s devout stacked split logs and broken branches under their feet, then doused the piles with lamp oil. They had to be swift about it. The snow was falling heavily, as ever, and the wood would soon be soaked through. “Where is the king?” asked Ser Corliss Penny.

 

Four days ago, one of the king’s own squires had succumbed to cold and hunger, a boy named Bryen Farring who’d been kin to Ser Godry. Stannis Baratheon stood grim-faced by the funeral pyre as the lad’s body was consigned to the flames. Afterward the king had retreated to his watchtower. He had not emerged since … though from time to time His Grace was glimpsed upon the tower roof, outlined against the beacon fire that burned there night and day. Talking to the red god, some said. Calling out for Lady Melisandre, insisted others. Either way, it seemed to Asha Greyjoy, the king was lost and crying out for help.

 
The idea of Stannis's squire as his son fits with the idea that after he died, Stannis became troubled and secluded himself. Is there a meaning to the idea that he froze? And then was burned? That's kind of similar to going from a purple and white knights fighting sigil to a burning heart, perhaps. 
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Yeah, it's all speculation. There are clues Azor Ahai might have become the NK - Stannis basically does this. I mentioned the model of the Kingsguard, white snowy knights in snowy armor, pale shadows (just like the Others are pale shadows), who serve a dragon king dressed in black and red. Mance, the leader of the wildlings (who stand in for the Others in some metaphors), has the red and black cape and common symbolism with Rhaegar. 

I do actually think those black bloodstone meteors might have been involved in Other creation. They seem to be associated with necromancy and creating twisted magical beings. And the Others have inner fire - blue stars are the hottest stars, actually, and blue flame is the hottest flame. Their eyes burn, and nothing burns like the cold. It's almost like the Others have a different sort of frozen fire - fire turned to icefire. Blue cold fire. Something like that. So maybe fire magic was frozen in part of the equation. 

 

Just so.  Ok, if for the moment we take out the idea that VS can withstand the Others' blades, we do know that Obsidian can kill them. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian

 

Obsidian is a naturally occurring volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

It is produced when felsic lava extruded from a volcano cools rapidly with minimum crystal growth. Obsidian is commonly found within the margins of rhyolitic lava flows known as obsidian flows, where the chemical composition (high silica content) induces a high viscosity and polymerization degree of the lava. The inhibition of atomic diffusion through this highly viscous and polymerized lava explains the lack of crystal growth. Obsidian is hard and brittle; it therefore fractures with very sharp edges, which were used in the past in cutting and piercing tools, and has been used experimentally as surgical scalpelblades.[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felsic

 

In geology felsic refers to igneous rocks that are relatively rich in elements that form feldspar and quartz.[1] It is contrasted with mafic rocks, which are relatively richer in magnesium and iron (ferric). It refers to those rocks rich in silicate mineralsmagma, and rocks which are enriched in the lighter elements such as siliconoxygenaluminiumsodium, and potassium.

They are usually light in color and have specific gravities less than 3. The most common felsic rock is granite. Common felsic minerals include quartz,muscoviteorthoclase, and the sodium-rich plagioclase feldspars. In terms of chemistry, felsic minerals and rocks are at the other end of the elemental spectrum from the mafic minerals and rocks.

 

And Mafic:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafic

 

Mafic is an adjective describing a silicate mineral or rock that is rich in magnesium and iron, and hence is a contraction of "magnesium" and "ferric".[1] Most mafic minerals are dark in color, and common rock-forming mafic minerals include olivinepyroxeneamphibole, and biotite. Common mafic rocks include basaltdoleriteand gabbro.

Mafic lava, before cooling, has a low viscosity, in comparison to felsic lava, due to the lower silica content in mafic magma. Water and other volatiles can more easily and gradually escape from mafic lava, so eruptions of volcanoes made of mafic lavas are less explosively violent than felsic-lava eruptions. Most mafic-lava volcanoes are shield volcanoes, like those in Hawaii.

 

A very strange similarity to Valyrian Steel and Dawn descriptions as per their color and appearance.  Curious then if a meteorite could cool rapidly such as to generate the same type of occurrence that normally happens within volcanoes?  Since the story includes a smidgeon of magic as well, I can see it as possible.

 

That then just leaves what material Dawn was forged from.  It would seem Valyrian Steel is forged from the Mafic type of rocks, infused with blood/shadow magic, but Dawn would seem to be forged from felsic rock.

So while we have no textual proof about Valyrian Swords vs. the Others, we do have Obsidian, frozen fire, which does kill them.  Dragonstone is a volcanic island, plentiful in Obsidian.  Valyria was situated in the heart of a series of volcanoes as we know (the 14 flames) and they quite likely smelted the iron out of Mafic rocks, whereas Dawn seems to likely originate from Felsic rocks.  

 

Even if that's not quite true, if say Dawn is actually metal smelted from the exploded Moon, it quite possibly has a different mineral element than the elements derived from the volcanic rocks on Planetos.  This then allows an interesting idea; the moon emanates light, it does not soak it up, contrasted with the Valyrian swords, likely originating from volcanic Planetos rock.

 

I think this is an interesting possibility.

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Thae darkness behind is the cold darkness, she throws herself forward and is burned. SO no, in the wake the dragon dream, the thing behind her did not catch her. She woke the dragon, and her blood burned. That's what happens when Lightbringer wakes dragons from the moon - its "moon blood" boils, blackens, and coats the black meteors in black blood... the greasy black bloodstone. 

 

Whether Dawn is the one and only sword passed down by the GEotD, or just the last or only surviving one, really, it's the same thing. 

What I'm trying to get at here, though, is that it identifies a lineage for whoever holds it that goes back to the God-Emperors.  And without it, the BSE could not claim that legitimacy.  It's the sword-in-the stone metaphor.  Kind of mirrors dragon riding: if you can ride one you're likely Valyrian, if you can't, you might be Valyrian but you can't prove you are.  If there were a whole bunch then that takes quite a bit of drama out of it.  If there were more around, it also weakens a speculation I have that the Valyrians, who once at least knew about Dawn, made Valyrian swords specifically in imitation of some of Dawn's properties.  The V swords retain the same sharp edge but are made of either a black meteorite metal or the shadows from that black meteor, meaning they leech light not reflect it, as you've said before.  They can be red swords but they can't shine with daylight, a much brighter thing to combat darkness, not Ice in particular.  I've also seen specs on here that Dawn is somehow made from the ice swords of the Others,  and I don't find that feasible at all.  I also just read the Ice becomes Dawn thread, and sorry to say I didn't find that convincing either (though some of the other theorizing in the initial post by Voice seemed very possible to me) but at the same time I would very much like to see a connection between the Starks and Daynes.  The Others do come into this somehow, I think, though I'm not sure how. 

 

I think I'll read the World Book again to find those two rituals that seemed so similar, the BSE and his tiger-woman, the Night's King and his corpse bride.

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I can go with that. If it's in tandem with the Battles--because he is in Battle for the Wall. It shifts to Battle for the Dawn--against wights.

 

So, not just a myth--a real (ancient) northern history. Getting back to real (ancient) titles and weapons. Symbolically, it can work as a rejection of AA. But I also think it's a dream/vision of the future battle tied to past ones. Jon's had visions of the future with the dreams of going into the realm of the dead--really think the dream battle is in that same vein.

 

Agree on Dany--it makes me sad. But I don't think she can help the Long Night.

 

And one other things spinning in my brain from your "empire" post--when Jon makes his vow before the heart tree, he has a spiritual reaction to it. A true connection, vs. Dany's intense, exultant, but world-cracking experience with the dragons. When Jon (with a little help from his friends :) ) chooses to go back to his duty at the Wall, he is staying true to that protector role.

 

So, in that way, Jon is being both Stark-like and Dayne-like--dutiful protector. Unwilling to break his word. Resuing to betray his black brothers any more than he would betray his real brothers or sisters. Ghost even longs for his siblings--very like Jon does for his own. In all that, Jon is very like Ned. But if, as you say, he is Arthur's son (too)--Jon becomes the antithesis to the story of the empire's treachery. Duty and family and honor. 

I'm not actually convinced of Arthur, but some of your imagery in the original post made me consider him more seriously than I had done before.  All Targaryans are related in some way to Daynes though, I think, so Jon as Rhaegar's son could still possibly be the Sword of the Morning without Dayne parentage.  Worthy Dayne and all that.  I am far more worried about Bran up there with Bloodraven after thinking this all through!  Bran likes the taste of blood when Summer eats.  He tastes blood through trees.  I think this is a natural kind of sacrifice (willing or unwilling) but Bloodraven is so connected to blood magic it makes me wonder.  Yet is it blood magic he uses, I wonder?  Or are all BR's gifts all Blackwood?  The blue fire that Varys's balls were burned in disturbed me because my immediate thought was that it was a life-generating ritual to keep BR alive.  On the other hand, I kind of like BR so far with all that Odin and Merlin imagery.  He is not exempt from the Blood Betrayal though.  He went after Blackfyres with a vengeace, and didn't he even personally kill his brother Bittersteel (can't remember if he did it himself). That would not be a good thing, I think.

 

Just caught this: You know how I compared Westeros as perhaps a place for escaped slaves, led there by the purple-eyed first of the First Men.  I compared it to Braavos.  What is Braavos known for besides its Titan and Iron Bank.  Its purple sails.  It's said the Braavosi do not need walls for protection because their purple fleet is wall enough.  I might be stretching but I really think there is something to the escape from slavery thing connected to purple eyed leaders, descendents of the usurped Amethyst Empress, showing their enslaved people, who became the First Men, the way to a new home.  And that wall=purple sails connection tells me that the purple eyed people might have had a lot to do with the Night's Watch and the Wall in later days, still protecting their people.  As well, that spirit of freedom is intensely ingrained in the Wildlings, as First Men as First Men can be.  Such small connections but they're adding up to something I think.

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Just so.  Ok, if for the moment we take out the idea that VS can withstand the Others' blades, we do know that Obsidian can kill them. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian

 

Obsidian is a naturally occurring volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

It is produced when felsic lava extruded from a volcano cools rapidly with minimum crystal growth. Obsidian is commonly found within the margins of rhyolitic lava flows known as obsidian flows, where the chemical composition (high silica content) induces a high viscosity and polymerization degree of the lava. The inhibition of atomic diffusion through this highly viscous and polymerized lava explains the lack of crystal growth. Obsidian is hard and brittle; it therefore fractures with very sharp edges, which were used in the past in cutting and piercing tools, and has been used experimentally as surgical scalpelblades.[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felsic

 

In geology felsic refers to igneous rocks that are relatively rich in elements that form feldspar and quartz.[1] It is contrasted with mafic rocks, which are relatively richer in magnesium and iron (ferric). It refers to those rocks rich in silicate mineralsmagma, and rocks which are enriched in the lighter elements such as siliconoxygenaluminiumsodium, and potassium.

They are usually light in color and have specific gravities less than 3. The most common felsic rock is granite. Common felsic minerals include quartz,muscoviteorthoclase, and the sodium-rich plagioclase feldspars. In terms of chemistry, felsic minerals and rocks are at the other end of the elemental spectrum from the mafic minerals and rocks.

 

And Mafic:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafic

 

Mafic is an adjective describing a silicate mineral or rock that is rich in magnesium and iron, and hence is a contraction of "magnesium" and "ferric".[1] Most mafic minerals are dark in color, and common rock-forming mafic minerals include olivinepyroxeneamphibole, and biotite. Common mafic rocks include basaltdoleriteand gabbro.

Mafic lava, before cooling, has a low viscosity, in comparison to felsic lava, due to the lower silica content in mafic magma. Water and other volatiles can more easily and gradually escape from mafic lava, so eruptions of volcanoes made of mafic lavas are less explosively violent than felsic-lava eruptions. Most mafic-lava volcanoes are shield volcanoes, like those in Hawaii.

 

A very strange similarity to Valyrian Steel and Dawn descriptions as per their color and appearance.  Curious then if a meteorite could cool rapidly such as to generate the same type of occurrence that normally happens within volcanoes?  Since the story includes a smidgeon of magic as well, I can see it as possible.

 

That then just leaves what material Dawn was forged from.  It would seem Valyrian Steel is forged from the Mafic type of rocks, infused with blood/shadow magic, but Dawn would seem to be forged from felsic rock.

So while we have no textual proof about Valyrian Swords vs. the Others, we do have Obsidian, frozen fire, which does kill them.  Dragonstone is a volcanic island, plentiful in Obsidian.  Valyria was situated in the heart of a series of volcanoes as we know (the 14 flames) and they quite likely smelted the iron out of Mafic rocks, whereas Dawn seems to likely originate from Felsic rocks.  

 

Even if that's not quite true, if say Dawn is actually metal smelted from the exploded Moon, it quite possibly has a different mineral element than the elements derived from the volcanic rocks on Planetos.  This then allows an interesting idea; the moon emanates light, it does not soak it up, contrasted with the Valyrian swords, likely originating from volcanic Planetos rock.

 

I think this is an interesting possibility.

 

Ser Knute, you should take a look at the second essay in my signature and see what you think. I get into a bit of geology (very light compared t what you're doing here), but central to the issue is the greasy black stone, obsidian, etc. While it's true that the moon reflects light, this is not because of the material. Any material will reflect the sunlight if we are talking about moons. Varying brightness, to some extent, but even a moon of black basalt reflects sunlight more or less like our own.

 

The thing about the sun drinking stone is that it was burnt and transformed when the moon exploded. That's what the burning blood and black blood is about - fire magic transforms, just as in Mel's ADWD fire vision sequence where the fire is inside her, searing and transforming, while she bleeds black blood.

 

Also important to understand is heliotrope (bloodstone). Heliotrope means "sun, to turn or bend" and the word is sued in many ways to reflect this. There is a genus of flowers called heliotropium (one of the types is a species called a "Valerian" which has purple flowers). These plants are named heliotropium because they turn to follow the sun through the day. There's a greek myth about Klytie, who was turned into a flower. There is a scientific device which uses sun mirrors to reflect light over long distances for purposes of land surveillance. There's more - it's all in that essay. Basically, George's bloodstone has been fucked up, and all its properties are inverted. Instead of drawing out poison ( a supposed "attribute of bloodstone - we are talking mythology and ancient lore now, not science ), it poisons. Instead of being a sun mirror, its a sun drinker.  The dragon meters "drank the sun's fire" on the way down, and on earth, they appear black and greasy and they drink the light. 

 

George is doing something kind of esoteric with the black blood and "moon blood." Normal bloodstone or heliotrope is green with bright red spots - the blood drops. There's a story about Christ's blood dripping on some green chalcedony (heliotrope is a kind of chalcedony) and giving it the red spots, and thus conveying healing attributes on the stone, consecrating it. That's the idea George is working with - the moon has blood, and it was burned black. The bloodstone is black because it is coated with black moon blood, so to speak. It's bloodstone, but the blood has been fried. Cooked. Just like Nissa Nissa, or anything stabbed by Lightbringer - she was boiled from the inside out, and the sword drank (there's that word again) her blood, soul, strength, and courage.  This is some thirsty ass stone, basically. 

 

So, Dawn cannot come from this second moon, because the second moon was fried. However, Lucifer is not the only word that means lightbringer. Lucifer is the latin word for Morningstar, while the greek word is Eosphorus, or Phosphorus. Some of the attributes of phosphors, the dawn bringer:

 

- it is bright white

- it burns bright white 

- it is an integral element to the first chain reactions of life on the earth

- it may have been first brought here by comets, and is often found in comet iron ore

- hold on to you but, because it also

- can be added to swords to make them SHARPER

 

So, a white comet starfire sword, named Dawn? Eosphorus. Dawn bringer. And its found in comets.

 

A comet stone with iron and a bit of phosphorus and nickel (another common comet element which can be added to iron to make steel) would be a ready made allow. Stick it in the oven and hammer that son of gun, and you're ready to make a magic white sword. 

 

The other clues about Dawn have to do with the three attempts to forge Lightbringer. The first attempt is in water, then a lion heart, then the heart of his wife Nissa Nissa. Well, that's actually the solar cycle there. Morning is associated with cold mists, pale light. Dawn is always chilly, and Martin makes note of this all the time. Of course all of the sword Dawn's imagery matches icy things like the Others - milkglass, alive with light, pale light, pale sword, etc. Thus, it easy to associate Dawn with the water forging cycle of the comet. The lion heart represents the midday sun, bright and golden and warm. The blood sacrifice of Nissa Nissa represents sunset, when darkness begins to fall. Sunset is strongly associated with red, both in real life and in the books, as you will know if you read the comments on this thread. The red of the comet is the red of blood and flame and sunsets. The fourth part of the cycle, darkness, is represented by the darkness in which Azor Ahai forged his sword. And of course I am making the case Lightbringer was aback steel sword, one of the conclusions I am most confident in. I haven't seen anyone poke any kind of holes in my theory on this. 

 

The way I laid it out is this - the Nissa forging is the impact with the moon. The lion forging is when the comet passed close tot he sun, and split in half. I have a bunch of text support for the splitting by the sun idea, the two easy ones being that language of the failed second forging - "the steel shattered and split." The other would be that Tywin, the head lion, splits ned's ice in half... and Ned's Ice is used to symbolize Lightbringer in many places, directly and indirectly. Plus, if the comet hit the moon last time and is returning to the story, it would to have had to have split, or else the entire comet would be obliterated. So instead, the gravity of the sun pulls the comet apart (something which happens in the real world), with one half hitting the moon and the other just missing, jeeping a similar orbital trajectory. The surviving comet would have been radiated buy the same magic of the explosion which affected the moon meteors, and this is likely what turned the comet a magical red. Red comers cannot exist in real life; comet tails are blue and white / silver for scientific reasons.

 

So, the first forging attempt needs to be water associated. Well, the part of the comet which look alike a sword is the tail. I have pegged the first forging as the first time the comet sprouted a tail, as it neared the inner solar system. During this time, the comet begins to disintegrate a bit, shedding material and leaving a debris field. A comet with a blue and white tail looks a lot like Dawn might, or like the Others's sword, or like Jamie and Brienne's silvery blue fire swords in Jaimes dream. A red comet implies a magical quality, a transformation. It would make a lot of sense to me if the Dawn meteor came from that initial forging cycle, when it grew a blue and white tail and began shedding pieces of itself. Dawn is clearly a bright stone, not one that has been radiated and burned. Of course I thin kI have found text metaphors which associate Dawn with the first forging cycle. 

 

All of this stuff is in the second essay, "The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai." So with your eyes on geology, take a look and see what you think. Tell me if you find it convincing or not, I'd love to know. 

 

As for obsidian from space - yes, absolutely, they have a word for it: tektites. They can be formed when a volcano ejects stone so high into the atmosphere that it solidifies in space, where there is no oxygen, which changes the atomic structure. It's a specific kind of obsidian. They fall back down to earth in little pellets. The Doom rained dragonglass and black blood - that's an allusion to what I am taking about. The obsidian would be in tektite form from an explosion the size of Valyria... and of course, volcanic explosions on moons can create tektites as well. Any kind of huge fiery explosion of moon and comet would indeed generate these also. As for the rain of black blood - that is an entirely incomprehensible idea, until you understand what I am saint about the moon's blood having been burned black. It's kind of esoteric, but black blood and exploded rock go together in ASOIAF. 

 

I don't think V steel had obsidian in it, but Lightbringer may have. Radio Westeros has a good theory about this. The black glass candle in Oldtown is described as being like a sword, for one, and as you say, a sword unfused with obsidian might make a great weapon against the others. Since milkglass is a kind of glass, its possible that George's fantasy world milkglass is like white obsidian or something, or at least bearing the same properties. Of course we need to figure out why the others have bones like milkglass...

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I'm not actually convinced of Arthur, but some of your imagery in the original post made me consider him more seriously than I had done before.  All Targaryans are related in some way to Daynes though, I think, so Jon as Rhaegar's son could still possibly be the Sword of the Morning without Dayne parentage.  Worthy Dayne and all that.  I am far more worried about Bran up there with Bloodraven after thinking this all through!  Bran likes the taste of blood when Summer eats.  He tastes blood through trees.  I think this is a natural kind of sacrifice (willing or unwilling) but Bloodraven is so connected to blood magic it makes me wonder.  Yet is it blood magic he uses, I wonder?  Or are all BR's gifts all Blackwood?  The blue fire that Varys's balls were burned in disturbed me because my immediate thought was that it was a life-generating ritual to keep BR alive.  On the other hand, I kind of like BR so far with all that Odin and Merlin imagery.  He is not exempt from the Blood Betrayal though.  He went after Blackfyres with a vengeace, and didn't he even personally kill his brother Bittersteel (can't remember if he did it himself). That would not be a good thing, I think.

 

Just caught this: You know how I compared Westeros as perhaps a place for escaped slaves, led there by the purple-eyed first of the First Men.  I compared it to Braavos.  What is Braavos known for besides its Titan and Iron Bank.  Its purple sails.  It's said the Braavosi do not need walls for protection because their purple fleet is wall enough.  I might be stretching but I really think there is something to the escape from slavery thing connected to purple eyed leaders, descendents of the usurped Amethyst Empress, showing their enslaved people, who became the First Men, the way to a new home.  And that wall=purple sails connection tells me that the purple eyed people might have had a lot to do with the Night's Watch and the Wall in later days, still protecting their people.  As well, that spirit of freedom is intensely ingrained in the Wildlings, as First Men as First Men can be.  Such small connections but they're adding up to something I think.

 

Bloodraven is cool; don't worry about him. Trust me. ;)

 

I like your parallels that you're drawing, both with the escaped slaves idea and the purple walls. This is George's m.o., so the logic is good. Did you read the bit above about house Farring? This also indicates that the Daynes come from Azor Ahai. And I do think all the crazy constructions in Westeros were done by the GEotD immigrants. Pyke, Moat Cailin, Storms End, the Wall, Battle Isle, and the First Keep. all of those locations are highly anachronistic for various reasons. Entirely inconsistent with other First Men technology and constructions. So yes, the purple walls thing fits. 

 

And the Others... they have something to do with greenseers. And I believe that Azor Ahai and the GEotD were greenseers as well, although that might sound wacky at first. I ran from the idea for a while, but I cannot escape it. Thus, I think the Others have something to do with the GEotD and possibly the magically corrosive moon meteors. The last bit is a big maybe, but I think we are finding multiple links here tying the Wall and the Others and the NW to AA and his countrymen. 

 

A cool parallel from TWOIAF is the wooden wall the Ibbenese built on the north of Essos, across a peninsula of land they want dot hold against the Dothraki. It is directly compared the the Wall of Westeros, and it was built by the people who live north of it. The Ibbenseese have pale skin and blue blood veins, it is specifically mentioned. They govern from a shadow council, there are some other clues.. but just the idea of a wall being built by the people who live north of it is fascinating, isn't it? Many have suggested that a high magical ice wall would be built by those wielding ice magic - makes a certain amount of sense, if you think about it for even a moment. 

 

If you want to hear my ideas about GeoDawnian greenseers and building the Wall, head over to my thread about Leviathan, and start on this post and read on to the current post. I posted too many nuggets there to try to repeat here, and look out for the comment about the Old Ones. That's where it gets hot and heavy. 

 

If you haven't read the OP you may want to do that as well so it makes more sense.  :)

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[spoiler]On one hand, you said:

 

3. Bottom line--agree that AA is a pattern/archetype. To be an AA figure (slaying monsters) one does not need the original sword. THis is why I suspect that it is Brienne or Jaime. Heroes developing along with a broken sword.

 

Which is entirely inconsistent with your insistence that Jon needs Dawn specifically. I'm not saying that one does or does not need a specific sword, just that you can't gave it both ways. Either one needs a specific magic sword, or one does not.

 

You said: 

 

Yes and no--the Last Hero had companions. And when Nan stresses that the Last Hero did not do everything himself, she doesn't elaborate--seems like there is probably more to the story.

 

When did she stress this? I cannot find it. You're thinking about Stannis's quote regarding Azor Ahai, perhaps.

 

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—” (AGOT, Bran)

 

And based on this misunderstanding, you're construing meaning by saying this:

 

The Northern Long Night story (per Nan) stresses there was NOT a singular hero. But a man who works with companions and the Children. AA story focuses on a single figure--sacrificing another, but still a single figure. Slaying a monster. Suggests that the stories have gotten mixed--likely with stories of other heroes. So, all remember a Long Night, but mix it with other hero legends.

 

But Nan's stories hold for the North. Really think that's the key--a man with companions/allies, not a single figure, asking for magical help. The oath said at the Black Gate--men working as a single entity as one sword and shield.

 

But as I said, this is backwards - the AA story is the one which stresses he did not win his war alone. Even TWOIAF talks about him leading the forces of light against the darkness. 

 

I am not saying that the Last Hero couldn't have had help - we know the cotf helped him, and I think his "12 dead friends" might have actually been undead NW like Coldhands - thus merging both ideas, that his friends died but hat one man cannot overcome the Others - but it is false to draw a distinction between the AA and Last Hero storiesvased on fighting alone vs. fighting in groups. [/spoiler]

1. Ah--on "having it both ways"--now I get what you mean. I do think Jon can be seen as having elements of AA myths in his telling. But that isn't all he is--also Last Hero, also just Jon. 

 

2. I could have sworn up and down Nan stressed that "group" aspect to Bran--but I can't find it either. I withdraw it from consideration and apologize for the inconvenience.

 

3. Exactly how all the myths work together in Jon's also personal story--am not going to pretend I have that worked out. Which may be where I'm getting tripped up in this discussion. But one thing that does seem clear in Jon's story is the Sword of the Morning. And its relation to the Wall. And that Jon saw it and saw the transformational power of light and ice--"magic beyond the Wall." 

 

For those reasons (at least), I think Jon needs Dawn specifically--the Sword of the Morning wields Dawn in Martin's stories, currently

 

 

[spoiler]Sly Wren, one more thought. This vision of the SOTM constellation Jon has. I think you have to consider the possibility that the SOTM is a symbol, and that it does not mean a particular sword, just as you suggested about Lightbringer. I've considered the idea that all V steel is made from moon meteors (thats why they are all black), and in this scenario, they are all made the same way as Lightbringer, and therefore any V steel sword can take fire with red (or red and black, as I prefer) fire.[/spoiler] 

I have and do. But considering that Dawn is the only sword in the novels that is completely unique, and connected to the Wall when Jon sees it. And it predates the Valyrians--as does the Long Night. 

 

VS might be able to do this--so far we've seen a few examples of VS, and none has glowed "alive with light"--they are dark. They look alive and are magical, but they drink light in. All the evidence is not in, and we only have a few descriptions of Dawn--but it flashes with light. And the Wall it's associated with when Jon sees the constellation--it also flashes and gleams according to full light. Or red light--as the case may be. 

 

So, so far, based on available evidence, really seems like Dawn is more likely to flash light out.

 

[spoiler]There's an interesting bit in Jaime's dream, which I light-heartedly call "Jaime's Law" (see what I did there):

 

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

 

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

 
I;m not sure if this is just an observation, or a clue about sword flame color - but I already expected Oathkeeper to light up with black fire shot through with red, which is what I think Lightbringer did - and then I read this passage. Oathkeeper is of core red and black, waves of night and blood. Nightbringer, is the truth. 

This would indicate Dawn will glow white, or pale bright fire, etc.[/spoiler] 

But Dawn isn't made of steel, or VS. So, would the rules of how VS or steel burn apply to it? A sword that predates VS and is not described as steel?

 

Whereas ice reflects the light around it, the colors it gives out are tied to the light and colors around it--so, if  Dawn has some qualities related to the Wall (speculation on my part), seems more likely that is a correlation.

 

Especially in light (sorry for the pun) of what Jon sees dawn and daylight do with ice?

 

[spoiler]As for the actual sword:(1) the AA myth is about the sword and wielder developing together--literally. The Last Hero and how he (and others?) brought back the day--(2) we don't have details on how a sword did that. We do not have Jon developing physically or psychologically with a reworked sword--Jaime and Brienne are doing that.

 

1. What do you mean? AA did not develop, he tried three times to forge a sword, failed twice, and stabbed his wife in a grisly blood sacrifice on the third. I'm just not sure what you mean.

 

2. Yes we do:

 

“We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?”

 

“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

 

“Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “Valyrian steel?”

 

“That was my first thought as well.”

 

Setting aside whether or not Valyrian steel = dragonsteel, we are told that the Others could not stand against his sword. Specifically, that the Last Hero SLEW Others with his sword.[/spoiler]

1. What I mean by "developing" is that he had to work it out--figuring how to make this weapon, gear himself up for the ultimate sacrifice. The length of the forging steps--seems like we're seeing a process for both sword and wielder/forger. 

 

2.What I meant by "details"--how did that sword end the Long Night? There are blades that can hurt the Others for sure--obsidian. No idea if that's what the account Sam was talking about. "The Others could not stand against it"--makes it sound as though the sword might have undone them all en masse--how on earth does that work? Or is the account not saying that at all? Was the sword the only factor? If so, what's up with the horns? Just can't see as we have a clear idea on how the Long Night ended.

 

[spoiler]As for V steel and light drinking - you're forgetting that fire has a shadow aspect. Not all fire is bright. The ancestral sword of the Targs is Blackfyre, and the black dragons (with their teeth like black swords) breathe black flame shot through with red. We have talk of a stone beast breathing shadow fire - and many times Ned's sword is associated with a shadow sword, as is Stannis's sword when he kills Renly. There's a dark shadowy nature to the Valyrian steel, and indeed all the fire magic we have seen from R'hllorists. Then we have the quote about dark flame in Dany's prophecy - referring to Moquorro, most likely - but again, DARK flame. Not bright flame. They are two different things. Then Moquorro tells Tyrion of dragons, "bright and dark." Dragons are fire made flesh, but within that category, we have bright and dark dragons. Whether that's half metaphorical or all metaphorical, there is a clear association between V steel and dark fire or shadow fire. That's the kind of fire you'd expect from a light drinking sword. And all of the above is associated with death, blood sacrifice, and darkness. 

 

That is what the red sword is about. 

 

Dawn, however, is always pale light, white light. Icy brightness. All the colors returning. If Dawn takes fire, it should have pale flame. Bright fire, not shadow fire or dark flame or black fire shot through with red or anything else associated with Valyrian magics.[/spoiler]

Agree--VS is associated with flame. But so far, it doesn't burn out. It drinks in, bright or dark, flame. And both dragons and the Others are associated with blood sacrifice. But the sword in the dream just "burns red"--so far, VS doesn't burn out like that very limited description. 

 

But Dawn is white in sunlight. And, as you said, all colors. Burning out and brightening, Not drinking in. If it were a VS sword, could see your point about the flame it should have. But it isn't VS. It's alive with white light in the white sunlight. It enlightens--dawn-the-time brings light and day, not a shadow fire that drinks light in. Really think a non-VS, non-blood-sacrifice sword is needed.

 

[spoiler]Lady Barbrey is correct IMO when she talks about the lie of Azor Ahai. That, I believe is the point of Jon's dream. He's been hearing melisandre talk of Azor Ahai, and hearing Sam talk of the LH slaying Others w Dragonsteel (they may or may not be the same person), then he has a dream where he is playing the role of Azor Ahai - I'm sorry, but that's undeniable, it could not be ANY MORE Azor Ahai than it is, and he does nothing that the Night's King is known for in that dream. He doesn't love a moon pale maiden with blue eyes, he doesn't ensorcel his brothers, he doesn't think of the black gate, and he certainly does not sacrifice to the Others.  He does everything the BSE and Azor Ahai do... 

 

​...and its a nightmare. That is the message, and it fits with your themes if you can just back away from the "Dawn burns red" idea for a second. The red sword is associated with death and murder and betrayal. Blood sacrifice. Azor Ahai is a lie, at least in part. The very best you could say about it is that it might be necessary for someone to turn to the dark side, to the shadow, in order to serve a higher purpose. This is another kind of sacrifice, and its something Jon has already been doing. He has sacrificed his honor, just as Qhorin told to do, to serve a greater good. He felt wrong sleeping with Ygritte and going over to the wildlings (braking his vows), and then feels awful for betraying Ygritte when he goes back to the watch. So, it MIGHT BE that he has to become Azor Ahai, with all its shadowy baggage. If so, this will come at great cost to Jon personally.

 

On the other hand, perhaps he needs to utterly reject this nightmare Azor Ahai legacy, utterly reject blood sacrifice, as you suggest. 

But if this is the case, he should not have a red sword. He will only have a red sword if he embraces the shadow (my opinion of course).[/spoiler] 

1. Jon's dream is about the battle for the wall turning into the battle for the dawn. Wildlings turn into wights, etc. That's the conflation.

 

2. If Jon had actually killed Robb in any way, let alone to usurp his throne--I might be able to go with you. But he did not nor can he in the future do so. So, killing Robb must mean something else. Same with Ygritte. They only fit in the dream as AA-the-murderer if deny what the killings were in real life. Jon did not kill Robb at all, let alone to be a usurper. 

 

3. Can maybe see the AA myth getting conflated in Jon's brain--but this is about his own experiences turning into the battle for the dawn--the battle against the wights.

 

4. Agree that Jon has been sacrificing--but the sacrifices have NOT been about blood sacrifice or abominations. He wanted to break his oath and go to Robb--with help, he sacrificed his own desires and re-embraced his vows. Same with Quorin, leaving Ygritte in the cave, his repulsion to Craster--Jon does NOT embrace sacrificing other people to his own ambitions. He certainly does not accept blood sacrifice or usurping authority. His sacrifices are about duty and serving. Not stealing glory.

 

So, if, as you say, the red steel sword is about blood betrayal and Jon is NOT about blood betrayal--wouldn't he need a non-blood betrayal sword? The steel red sword in the novels drinks light in. Jon needs one that puts light out. Jon needs a sword that is capable of putting out light. Dawn-the-time brings all colors into the world, including red. Like the vision.

 

So, maybe the question is not only about the singularity of the color--but also about blood sacrifice, duty, light out-put and/or reflection (of multiple colors), and the ancient-ness of the battle. In short, what Jon needs is a sword that isn't VS at all--but Dawn.

 

Edited for spelling

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Sly Wren no offense but you are just repeating yourself, and you're missing my points entirely. I don't want to derail your thread and go back and forth. There has been really great conversion around these ideas, but I've made my points about the swords and the fire and I don't need to repeat them. Suffice it to say I disagree with everything you're saying about sword flame and V steel and the Azor Ahai-ness of his dream. I like a lot of your ideas but think your interpretation of fire and light is overly narrow. I've attempted to show bright and dark flame and how they are different but you seem to only have room for Dawn to take fire. I'm going to bow out of the convo now, as I just don't see a point in going round and round.

Great job on the OPs and running the discussion; you've fostered great conversation and I think everyone has enjoyed it. You should definitely keep writing posts and if I catch any text that might help your ideas I will send them to you.

And we'll just have to see what swords take fire with what flame, hopefully we don't have too much longer to wait. :cheers:
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You are so kind!  LmL already found a misrepresentation here, though, because I was operating on memory of Dany in the HotU, but it didn't change the conclusion I came to.  I will need to look at that passage again once I find the book.

 

I agree that the "true king" idea is a side issue, and it need never come up, but I just love the idea that it is Jon nevertheless (and he at least finds out about it).  Yes, as a protector.  But I think Dawn is a symbol to the whole kingdom, respected by worshippers of the seven, the old ones, the drowned god, the targaryans, from the north to the south.   If somebody did want to unite the seven kingdoms, would it not be with Dawn? Every other symbol, such as swords or the iron throne, whatever, is fraught with problems, winning and losing sides.  That's not true of Dawn.  That might be most of its magic, if it has any, right there.  "Harmonia", the child of Venus and Mars, blue and red, purple eyes.  Uniter of Westeros against a common foe.  Only show up at its time of need.

 

I like this idea about Dawn as uniter. I am likely being overly-cynical. But I struggle to see how the Westeros Martin has created could every be truly united. Perhaps for a short time against the Others--Martin did say everyone would have to work together. Longer than that--as you say, perhaps it only shows up in time of need. Only to unite in time of need.  But I would kinda love a new golden age at the end of the novels, if for no other reason than it might mean everyone gets to go home.

 

You're the one who started me thinking about blood sacrifice, unless willing, as a corruptor!  So credit yourself with spreading your logic to me!

:cheers:

 

And now you've got me thinking about the Westeros equivalent to the Underground Railroad!  We light the way, we guard the way.  Don't think so but who knows?  If there are other references from the housewords, there might be something there.

Brought that up here because I was discussing it elsewhere--how the Yronwoods have a name related to a tree tied to godwoods, native to the North. Because the Yronwoods and Hightowers look different from the rest of the Dornish--Yronwoods are (based on limited info) blond and blue-eyed. Hightowers are fair, too. Given the house words, the oldness of their houses--maybe a tie to the Daynes--but it's still just a hint, far as I can see. Happy to be corrected.

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To add onto that, have you seen Wolfmaid's Robert+L=J essay? Quite thought provoking.

I only glanced at it--will hopefully have time later today.

 

Well, we definitely hear many more tales about the goings on in the North, but when it comes right down to it, how much more do we truly know? No one seems to know very much at all about what caused the destruction at Hardhome. Just like Valyria, we hear that it is haunted and to stay away. For that matter, as much as we hear about the long night how much do we actually know and then how much of that is actually true? At the very least I think that it's worth considering what information we can take away from noting parallels between the two regions.

True--we do have tales re: the Long Night, but they aren't overly helpful as a "how-to" book. Save maybe "no sacrifices!" And studying in the ruins might be informative--if people could get over their fear. Is anything actually "haunting?" Is it something else?

 

The comparisons are worth doing--basics make me nervous for Dany and her dragons. But then I've been nervous about those dragons since I first read Game

 

Were you thinking about a specific comparison or conclusion?

 

I guess it's all going to depend on who reaches Dany first and can establish trust with her or if she is able to make the correct decisions on her own. Rickon is still so young. I'd still like to hold out some hope for him. Hopefully Osha provided him with some good support on his journey.

Yes--big ifs, considering how she's been responding to some of Barristan's info on her family. If she ends up with a Dothraki horde, anyone's being able to "gain her trust" might be a herculean task.

 

It is interesting, however, there is a bit of a time difference between the two. Sansa's starts prior to the dawn. It is still night time when Sansa takes the winding stairs into a world of blacks and whites and greys, similar to it being night time when Jon enters the cave with Ygritte. Dawn only begins to break once Sansa awakens on her knees. The sky turns pale grey (Stark colors) and the bushes a dark green. Color begins to occur. Sansa's sequence is just mushed together back to back whereas Jon's descent and awakening are spread further apart and across two chapters.

Good point--makes me think Sansa's descent really is like the symbolic descent into a dead underworld--magical, but a realm of the dead. Jon's in the cave is more "temptress" oriented. And Sansa's lost time moving into connection with Winterfell--still tied to that dead-underworld space. Jon has to choose to leave the cave before he can see dawn. Has to leave it and dare to hope.

Sansa will meet Jon in the underworld with an ironwood stump in her pocket from which he might pull Dawn? ;)

"The Lady of the Stump?"  ;)

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I'm not actually convinced of Arthur, but some of your imagery in the original post made me consider him more seriously than I had done before.  All Targaryans are related in some way to Daynes though, I think, so Jon as Rhaegar's son could still possibly be the Sword of the Morning without Dayne parentage.  Worthy Dayne and all that.  I am far more worried about Bran up there with Bloodraven after thinking this all through!  Bran likes the taste of blood when Summer eats.  He tastes blood through trees.  I think this is a natural kind of sacrifice (willing or unwilling) but Bloodraven is so connected to blood magic it makes me wonder.  Yet is it blood magic he uses, I wonder?  Or are all BR's gifts all Blackwood?  The blue fire that Varys's balls were burned in disturbed me because my immediate thought was that it was a life-generating ritual to keep BR alive.  On the other hand, I kind of like BR so far with all that Odin and Merlin imagery.  He is not exempt from the Blood Betrayal though.  He went after Blackfyres with a vengeace, and didn't he even personally kill his brother Bittersteel (can't remember if he did it himself). That would not be a good thing, I think.

1. Agreed on Arthur vs. Rhaegar--it's a bit easier symbolically if Arthur is Jon's father, but I really think the "worthiness" is more of the issue with the sword. That's largely speculation--the info we have is very limited. But until we know more, Rhaegar seems to work just fine.

 

2. Amen on worrying about Bran--I've been fretting about him on Heresy for months. At least he's appalled by the sacrifice. But I'm not at all convinced that we should trust what's up in the cave of skulls with Bloodraven. He's a tree, for pity's sake! Some of the imagery (black and white, silent singers only following Bran with their eyes) reminds me of the HotU. And, so far, no one in that cave has mentioned doing anything to stop the impending catastrophe. Bran's having fun flying--like Dany exults in her dragon dreams. But if getting lost in Summer isn't terribly good, getting lost in the trees can't be all that good, either. Especially with the blood sacrifice.

 

Just caught this: You know how I compared Westeros as perhaps a place for escaped slaves, led there by the purple-eyed first of the First Men.  I compared it to Braavos.  What is Braavos known for besides its Titan and Iron Bank.  Its purple sails.  It's said the Braavosi do not need walls for protection because their purple fleet is wall enough.  I might be stretching but I really think there is something to the escape from slavery thing connected to purple eyed leaders, descendents of the usurped Amethyst Empress, showing their enslaved people, who became the First Men, the way to a new home.  And that wall=purple sails connection tells me that the purple eyed people might have had a lot to do with the Night's Watch and the Wall in later days, still protecting their people.  As well, that spirit of freedom is intensely ingrained in the Wildlings, as First Men as First Men can be.  Such small connections but they're adding up to something I think.

This is very interesting. I have not done nearly as much with color imagery as you have--but this would be an interesting tie-in. And has interesting implications with the Faceless Men--they do practice a type of sacrifice, despite Braavos' history. Even tied to Braavosi history. Am wondering how that could factor in.

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Sly Wren no offense but you are just repeating yourself, and you're missing my points entirely. I don't want to derail your thread and go back and forth. There has been really great conversion around these ideas, but I've made my points about the swords and the fire and I don't need to repeat them. Suffice it to say I disagree with everything you're saying about sword flame and V steel and the Azor Ahai-ness of his dream. I like a lot of your ideas but think your interpretation of fire and light is overly narrow. I've attempted to show bright and dark flame and how they are different but you seem to only have room for Dawn to take fire. I'm going to bow out of the convo now, as I just don't see a point in going round and round.

Great job on the OPs and running the discussion; you've fostered great conversation and I think everyone has enjoyed it. You should definitely keep writing posts and if I catch any text that might help your ideas I will send them to you.

And we'll just have to see what swords take fire with what flame, hopefully we don't have too much longer to wait. :cheers:

:cheers: That's fair--it seems like the argument will be very hard to settle until we know what Dawn does or doesn't do in other light than sunlight. 

 

Same with Valyrian Steel--given that we haven't seen it burn, can't know for sure if it can or cannot burn out like Jon's dream. I agree with the color associations--but I can't let go of the rest of the context.

 

And, yes, hopefully we don't have to wait much longer. :cheers:

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 This also indicates that the Daynes come from Azor Ahai.

 

omg LmL agrees with one of my theories, its unheard of

 

 

 And I do think all the crazy constructions in Westeros were done by the GEotD immigrants. Pyke, Moat Cailin, Storms End, the Wall, Battle Isle, and the First Keep. all of those locations are highly anachronistic for various reasons. Entirely inconsistent with other First Men technology and constructions.

 

thats an interesting take and wouldnt mind diving in on that.

 

 

A cool parallel from TWOIAF is the wooden wall the Ibbenese built on the north of Essos, across a peninsula of land they want dot hold against the Dothraki. It is directly compared the the Wall of Westeros, and it was built by the people who live north of it.The Ibbe n

thats a cool catch

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:cheers: That's fair--it seems like the argument will be very hard to settle until we know what Dawn does or doesn't do in other light than sunlight. 

 

Same with Valyrian Steel--given that we haven't seen it burn, can't know for sure if it can or cannot burn out like Jon's dream. I agree with the color associations--but I can't let go of the rest of the context.

 

And, yes, hopefully we don't have to wait much longer. :cheers:

 

If I were you I would investigate the concept of tree swords. If Dawn's pale stone was a petrified weirwood and not a meteor, then you have a precedent for a white stone to burn red via the red leaves which are described as bits of flame, red hands, etc. Of course weirwoods are covered in blood sacrifice, so.... Anyway, there's a lot about tree swords and wooden swords, and I've always wondered what the meaning is. At this point I basically do not believe in coincidence where it concerns Martin. 

 

Again great job on the threads and keep it up. ;)

 

omg LmL agrees with one of my theories, its unheard of

 

thats an interesting take and wouldnt mind diving in on that.

 

thats a cool catch

 

Really? I didn't realize I was disagreeing with you that much. Definitely think the AA - Dayne connection is real, I put something alone those lines back in the essay about the GEotD. 

 

Did you see the bit about Bryen Farring and purple and white knights?

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Ser Knute, you should take a look at the second essay in my signature and see what you think. I get into a bit of geology (very light compared t what you're doing here), but central to the issue is the greasy black stone, obsidian, etc. While it's true that the moon reflects light, this is not because of the material. Any material will reflect the sunlight if we are talking about moons. Varying brightness, to some extent, but even a moon of black basalt reflects sunlight more or less like our own.

 

The thing about the sun drinking stone is that it was burnt and transformed when the moon exploded. That's what the burning blood and black blood is about - fire magic transforms, just as in Mel's ADWD fire vision sequence where the fire is inside her, searing and transforming, while she bleeds black blood.

 

Also important to understand is heliotrope (bloodstone). Heliotrope means "sun, to turn or bend" and the word is sued in many ways to reflect this. There is a genus of flowers called heliotropium (one of the types is a species called a "Valerian" which has purple flowers). These plants are named heliotropium because they turn to follow the sun through the day. There's a greek myth about Klytie, who was turned into a flower. There is a scientific device which uses sun mirrors to reflect light over long distances for purposes of land surveillance. There's more - it's all in that essay. Basically, George's bloodstone has been fucked up, and all its properties are inverted. Instead of drawing out poison ( a supposed "attribute of bloodstone - we are talking mythology and ancient lore now, not science ), it poisons. Instead of being a sun mirror, its a sun drinker.  The dragon meters "drank the sun's fire" on the way down, and on earth, they appear black and greasy and they drink the light. 

 

George is doing something kind of esoteric with the black blood and "moon blood." Normal bloodstone or heliotrope is green with bright red spots - the blood drops. There's a story about Christ's blood dripping on some green chalcedony (heliotrope is a kind of chalcedony) and giving it the red spots, and thus conveying healing attributes on the stone, consecrating it. That's the idea George is working with - the moon has blood, and it was burned black. The bloodstone is black because it is coated with black moon blood, so to speak. It's bloodstone, but the blood has been fried. Cooked. Just like Nissa Nissa, or anything stabbed by Lightbringer - she was boiled from the inside out, and the sword drank (there's that word again) her blood, soul, strength, and courage.  This is some thirsty ass stone, basically. 

 

So, Dawn cannot come from this second moon, because the second moon was fried. However, Lucifer is not the only word that means lightbringer. Lucifer is the latin word for Morningstar, while the greek word is Eosphorus, or Phosphorus. Some of the attributes of phosphors, the dawn bringer:

 

- it is bright white

- it burns bright white 

- it is an integral element to the first chain reactions of life on the earth

- it may have been first brought here by comets, and is often found in comet iron ore

- hold on to you but, because it also

- can be added to swords to make them SHARPER

 

So, a white comet starfire sword, named Dawn? Eosphorus. Dawn bringer. And its found in comets.

 

A comet stone with iron and a bit of phosphorus and nickel (another common comet element which can be added to iron to make steel) would be a ready made allow. Stick it in the oven and hammer that son of gun, and you're ready to make a magic white sword. 

 

The other clues about Dawn have to do with the three attempts to forge Lightbringer. The first attempt is in water, then a lion heart, then the heart of his wife Nissa Nissa. Well, that's actually the solar cycle there. Morning is associated with cold mists, pale light. Dawn is always chilly, and Martin makes note of this all the time. Of course all of the sword Dawn's imagery matches icy things like the Others - milkglass, alive with light, pale light, pale sword, etc. Thus, it easy to associate Dawn with the water forging cycle of the comet. The lion heart represents the midday sun, bright and golden and warm. The blood sacrifice of Nissa Nissa represents sunset, when darkness begins to fall. Sunset is strongly associated with red, both in real life and in the books, as you will know if you read the comments on this thread. The red of the comet is the red of blood and flame and sunsets. The fourth part of the cycle, darkness, is represented by the darkness in which Azor Ahai forged his sword. And of course I am making the case Lightbringer was aback steel sword, one of the conclusions I am most confident in. I haven't seen anyone poke any kind of holes in my theory on this. 

 

The way I laid it out is this - the Nissa forging is the impact with the moon. The lion forging is when the comet passed close tot he sun, and split in half. I have a bunch of text support for the splitting by the sun idea, the two easy ones being that language of the failed second forging - "the steel shattered and split." The other would be that Tywin, the head lion, splits ned's ice in half... and Ned's Ice is used to symbolize Lightbringer in many places, directly and indirectly. Plus, if the comet hit the moon last time and is returning to the story, it would to have had to have split, or else the entire comet would be obliterated. So instead, the gravity of the sun pulls the comet apart (something which happens in the real world), with one half hitting the moon and the other just missing, jeeping a similar orbital trajectory. The surviving comet would have been radiated buy the same magic of the explosion which affected the moon meteors, and this is likely what turned the comet a magical red. Red comers cannot exist in real life; comet tails are blue and white / silver for scientific reasons.

 

So, the first forging attempt needs to be water associated. Well, the part of the comet which look alike a sword is the tail. I have pegged the first forging as the first time the comet sprouted a tail, as it neared the inner solar system. During this time, the comet begins to disintegrate a bit, shedding material and leaving a debris field. A comet with a blue and white tail looks a lot like Dawn might, or like the Others's sword, or like Jamie and Brienne's silvery blue fire swords in Jaimes dream. A red comet implies a magical quality, a transformation. It would make a lot of sense to me if the Dawn meteor came from that initial forging cycle, when it grew a blue and white tail and began shedding pieces of itself. Dawn is clearly a bright stone, not one that has been radiated and burned. Of course I thin kI have found text metaphors which associate Dawn with the first forging cycle. 

 

All of this stuff is in the second essay, "The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai." So with your eyes on geology, take a look and see what you think. Tell me if you find it convincing or not, I'd love to know. 

 

As for obsidian from space - yes, absolutely, they have a word for it: tektites. They can be formed when a volcano ejects stone so high into the atmosphere that it solidifies in space, where there is no oxygen, which changes the atomic structure. It's a specific kind of obsidian. They fall back down to earth in little pellets. The Doom rained dragonglass and black blood - that's an allusion to what I am taking about. The obsidian would be in tektite form from an explosion the size of Valyria... and of course, volcanic explosions on moons can create tektites as well. Any kind of huge fiery explosion of moon and comet would indeed generate these also. As for the rain of black blood - that is an entirely incomprehensible idea, until you understand what I am saint about the moon's blood having been burned black. It's kind of esoteric, but black blood and exploded rock go together in ASOIAF. 

 

I don't think V steel had obsidian in it, but Lightbringer may have. Radio Westeros has a good theory about this. The black glass candle in Oldtown is described as being like a sword, for one, and as you say, a sword unfused with obsidian might make a great weapon against the others. Since milkglass is a kind of glass, its possible that George's fantasy world milkglass is like white obsidian or something, or at least bearing the same properties. Of course we need to figure out why the others have bones like milkglass...

Very nice.  Makes a lot of sense and I can see where I was missing information or the connection from real-world elements to fantasy with GRRM's twist. 

 

So Dawn could be a result of a volcanic explosion that was so intense it left the atmosphere, or it could be a result of a formation of White Obsidian as you suggested, or even a portion of the comet itself that fell to Planetos.  That satisfies my curiosity with Dawn's possible origins.

 

What's left is I suppose the possible corruption related to the Others and their relationship, if any, to our BSE and/or our AE.  I'll get to the essay, I've read parts of them but it's so deep it sometimes is overwhelming, I might need small bites.  But fabulous work no doubt.  Thanks for the clarification man, it helps.

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Yes, the potential relationship of Others to GEotD magic is something I've been sniffing at for a while. Again, I wonder about the idea that the Others, ice made flesh or flesh made ice, have burning blue star eyes. This ties in to Sly Wren's Op, actually.

Blue stars are the hottest type of stars. (nothing burns like the cold).

Blue fire is the hottest type of fire or the hottest part of a conflagration.

Blue flame indicates a PURE fuel source. Dirty fuel sources produce darker, orange and red flame. Propane burns blue, wood burns red and orange.

So when I see either the Others burning blue star eyes, or the silvery blue fire swords of Jaime's dream, or swords of pale fire in the hands of the GEotD, I think of purity and the hottest type of fire. Really seems like a good match for the sword Dawn, IMO. It's just the kind of curveball Martin seems to like - the ice beings have most intense fire.

Sly Wren, I forgot to make this point to you earlier. The red fire may indicate an umpire fuel source, and blue fire sword would really be the hottest type of sword. Pale flame or blue flame may indicate purity. That's another reason I associate red flame to black evil swords. There may be a purpose even for those, as this is Martinland and very little is pure evil or good, but regardless, the darker the flame the dirtier the fuel.
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