Would you be upset of Jon Snow was a Dayne instead of a Targaryen?

[OuttaOldtown]

 
GRRM confirmed in an SSM that it was Elia and Aegon in the vision with Rhaegar.

I know most people consider what is said in interviews by him as truth, I'm not one of them..

[J. Stargaryen]

I know most people consider what is said in interviews by him as truth, I'm not one of them..

 

I believe it was a fan correspondence, though I'm not 100% sure. Either way, I don't think it makes much sense to assume he'd choose to answer the question with a lie, rather than just avoid it as he's done probably hundreds of times over the years.

[Lord Wraith]

As others have stated he has Dayne blood either way.  I'm fine with either. Of course Martin has set up one of the biggest red herrings in history.  Would be a great way to show that prophecy is BS.

[OuttaOldtown]

 
I believe it was a fan correspondence, though I'm not 100% sure. Either way, I don't think it makes much sense to assume he'd choose to answer the question with a lie, rather than just avoid it as he's done probably hundreds of times over the years.

I'd still be more convinced by a clue in the book than in fan correspondance or any of that. Not all fans buy his answers, I'd need to see how it was worded. One thing is true, not everything in THotU actually happened..

[kimim]

 

Once again I have to disagree. You can make the same argument with the Others. The only "history" we know of them is probably false, with small kernels of truth in Old Nan's tales. That means that within the next two books this entire species has to be fleshed out enough for us to buy it, which is far more than fleshing out House Dayne and its history when its already been mentioned several times with vocabulary that indicates a more magical/end-game importance. And considering Jon's parentage is probably the central mystery of the story, and also considering that it will probably be revealed in A Dream of Spring rather than The Winds of Winter, I would expect massive history dumps about House Dayne, the Long Night, The Children of the Forest, the First Men, and the Others in The Winds of Winter. We're going to have Samwell at the Citadel, studying history. We're going to have Tree Bran beaming visions to people or peering in the past as part of his training with Bloodraven. We're going to have Tyrion (possibly) studying the history of Valyria/dragons. 

 

House Dayne is clearly connected to the overall endgame of the Others and the Long Night. Its no coincidence that a red comet appears in the beginning of the series, and Dawn is supposed to be forged from a fallen star. Then the name cues: Dayne, Starfall, Sword of the Morning, etc. The fact that only a worthy Dayne can wield Dawn. 

And we've had plenty of mentions of Ser Arthur Dayne. Enough to characterize him as chivalrous, the finest warrior of the seven kingdoms (for a time), Rhaegar's best and most trusted companion. Yet enough mystery surrounds him that any reveal about the Daynes that GRRM does decide to do will be gratifying. We also have the whole mystery with Ned's infatuation with Ashara Dayne in his pre-Catelyn days. And we know that Ned feels deep remorse over having to slay Arthur Dayne. 

 

Claiming that the living members of the Daynes are nothing special isn't really an argument against this. Sure Darkstar is an asshole, but there have been plenty of asshole Targaryens throughout history. 

1. I'm not claiming that the living members of the Daynes are nothing special. I'm pointing out that most readers wouldn't have a clue who the Daynes are, as they've played no real part in the novels so far. We hear about Barristan's feelings for Ashara, and Arthur's in Ned's fever dream about the toj, but he's not even the key character there. tbh, I didn't even connect Darkstar with the Daynes when I read the story. He got involved in a nonsensical scheme to crown Myrcella, then disappeared. Hardly memorable enough for me to look up his heritage. 

 

2. I agree that the Others are mysterious, but I wouldn't compare the Others with the Daynes. The Others ARE the story. They're mysterious because they need to be; their mystery ups their creep factor. They're the incomprehensible "Other." Their existence mocks the game and endangers humanity. Unlike the Daynes, they show up  often, and create a huge mess when they do. The Daynes are not mysterious for the sake of being mysterious; their mystery is the mystery of any minor character. They're not important enough to flesh out, which leaves the reader free to do the fleshing himself. 

 

3. ita that we're going to have history dumps; we've already had visions at the HotU, fever dreams from Ned, flashbacks from Bran, stories from Barristan, and a tale from Meera about the Harrenhal tourney, and only one of them--one of Barristan's tales--involves the Daynes.

[Sly Wren]

 

Once again I have to disagree. You can make the same argument with the Others. The only "history" we know of them is probably false, with small kernels of truth in Old Nan's tales. That means that within the next two books this entire species has to be fleshed out enough for us to buy it, which is far more than fleshing out House Dayne and its history when its already been mentioned several times with vocabulary that indicates a more magical/end-game importance. And considering Jon's parentage is probably the central mystery of the story, and also considering that it will probably be revealed in A Dream of Spring rather than The Winds of Winter, I would expect massive history dumps about House Dayne, the Long Night, The Children of the Forest, the First Men, and the Others in The Winds of Winter. We're going to have Samwell at the Citadel, studying history. We're going to have Tree Bran beaming visions to people or peering in the past as part of his training with Bloodraven. We're going to have Tyrion (possibly) studying the history of Valyria/dragons. 

Good analogy--we're introduced to the Others in the Game prologue, shown how threatening they are--but most in the novels focus on the political issues, the history of the Targs (who are really new in Westerosi history), wars, etc.

 

But the Others and how to beat them--that's what could make or break humanity, vs. just the politics of the Iron Throne. And Martin has only been dropping hints. We've barely seen the Others vs. all the political and military wrangling. Readers are caught in the attention of the POV's--and most of the POV's aren't focused on the bigger, older picture.

 

So, the idea that the Daynes--who we've also only seen a little of, but who have been brought up--might be important in the big, older picture, just as the Others are--seems reasonable.

 

Unless Martin is brining both of them up for no reason.

 

House Dayne is clearly connected to the overall endgame of the Others and the Long Night. Its no coincidence that a red comet appears in the beginning of the series, and Dawn is supposed to be forged from a fallen star. Then the name cues: Dayne, Starfall, Sword of the Morning, etc. The fact that only a worthy Dayne can wield Dawn. 

 

And we've had plenty of mentions of Ser Arthur Dayne. Enough to characterize him as chivalrous, the finest warrior of the seven kingdoms (for a time), Rhaegar's best and most trusted companion. Yet enough mystery surrounds him that any reveal about the Daynes that GRRM does decide to do will be gratifying. We also have the whole mystery with Ned's infatuation with Ashara Dayne in his pre-Catelyn days. And we know that Ned feels deep remorse over having to slay Arthur Dayne. 

 

Claiming that the living members of the Daynes are nothing special isn't really an argument against this. Sure Darkstar is an asshole, but there have been plenty of asshole Targaryens throughout history. 

Yup!!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If Martin changes his Diabolical Master Plan out of spite...
 
*tosses all five ASOIAF doorstoppers into the fireplace, strikes a match*

I don't mean he would change it but he managed to fool us all these years, the magnificent bastard.

If he also cheated D&D, I would accept that as an honour.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'd still be more convinced by a clue in the book than in fan correspondance or any of that. Not all fans buy his answers, I'd need to see how it was worded. One thing is true, not everything in THotU actually happened..

 

If you're looking for a "clue" then I'd point to the text where Rhaegar calls the baby Aegon.

 

Right. But it doesn't need to have actually happened for the people in the vision who appear to be Elia and Aegon to be Elia and Aegon, as opposed to Lyanna and Jon.

[Colton Casados-Medve]

1. I'm not claiming that the living members of the Daynes are nothing special. I'm pointing out that most readers wouldn't have a clue who the Daynes are, as they've played no real part in the novels so far. We hear about Barristan's feelings for Ashara, and Arthur's in Ned's fever dream about the toj, but he's not even the key character there. tbh, I didn't even connect Darkstar with the Daynes when I read the story. He got involved in a nonsensical scheme to crown Myrcella, then disappeared. Hardly memorable enough for me to look up his heritage. 

 

2. I agree that the Others are mysterious, but I wouldn't compare the Others with the Daynes. The Others ARE the story. They're mysterious because they need to be; their mystery ups their creep factor. They're the incomprehensible "Other." Their existence mocks the game and endangers humanity. Unlike the Daynes, they show up  often, and create a huge mess when they do. The Daynes are not mysterious for the sake of being mysterious; their mystery is the mystery of any minor character. They're not important enough to flesh out, which leaves the reader free to do the fleshing himself. 

 

3. ita that we're going to have history dumps; we've already had visions at the HotU, fever dreams from Ned, flashbacks from Bran, stories from Barristan, and a tale from Meera about the Harrenhal tourney, and only one of them--one of Barristan's tales--involves the Daynes.

 

The Dayne's are in Ned's TOJ dream, and numerous accounts of Knights scattered about Westeros (mostly referring to Ser Arthur Dayne who was pivotal in whatever went down at the TOJ). Then of course there are the references to Ashara and the greatsword Dawn as well. I couldn't find the interview (it was few years ago) but I'm also positive GRRM said the Daynes will play a larger role in the future. 

 

But to say only Barristan mentions the Daynes is flat out wrong. They are mentioned numerous times. 

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Jon is to young to be Brandon's. If it was Ned & Ashara, why the secrecy? Benjen was to young at the time. to many clues point to R+L=J. If Jon were a 

Dayne why not let him be raised in Dorne where bing a bastard is a lot easier?

[Lady Barbrey]

I think I have a different perspective on the parentage thing as a long-time fantasy reader.  Without spoiling anything, I want to take Tad Williams' Memory Sorrow and Thorn as an example.  I read that series about twenty years ago but I highly recommend it.  Martin used this series as an inspiration, and I can't even describe how many things he has used from that series in this one, from an unnaturally long winter, to named swords, to the races, different possibilities for parentage, the Others (read Sithi), etc.  As readers, we are given a number of hints as to the main character, Simon's, parentage, no more nor less than what we find indicating RLJ, and that father was my main suspicion through the series.  There are a few more symbolic clues hinting at someone else.  It turns out to be the someone else.   Simon's parentage is not revealed until the end, and the story behind it, even the kingship, reveals a different story than what we had been led to expect.  Kudos to Wiliiams too, because by that time Simon and the rest of the characters are so war weary they hardly care who his mom and dad are. I suspect Jon might feel the same by the end of the books and so will we.

 

The books suggest R&L=J, there is no doubt about that, and it is also a logical theory, one I did glean from reading the story on my own over the last (gasp!) twenty years.  But a majority of digital fandom is insisting it must be cast in concrete, and I think that misleading. Circumstances change, the real story of the TOJ will emerge, things we were not privy to will be revealed. So I'm reserving a little doubt about R&L=J, and a huge amount of doubt on accepted theories on how the whole thing went down.  Doesn't mean I don't want to hear them though!

 

Can Jon be a Dayne?  Yes, he could.  I think it more likely he's Arthur's than Ashara's if that's the case, because all Jon's symbolism points to Lyanna as his mother.  Also, I think I prefer Arthur to Rhaegar; he seems more Lyanna's type from the little bit we know of her personality, and his king's guard vow might not be so glaring an obstacle to her as Rhaegar's wife would be.  And if you read the World Book, and some of the spec about the GEotDawn, it's pretty evident that Dawn the sword has a far lengthier and more illustrious ancestry than a meteor in Starfall, so that if Jon's a Dayne, and more importantly the next Sword of the Morning, he's got an uncorrupted (by blood magic and sorcery) heritage that beats Rhaegar's all to hell. I still think it's R&L=J but I can see some exciting possibilities from the World Book that would make A+L=J  much more exciting if they panned out. 

 

I'm interested to see what the show does with it.  From the many people I know who watch GOT, but haven't been on forums, none of them suspect R&L=J.  I have to bite my tongue!

[Colton Casados-Medve]

I think I have a different perspective on the parentage thing as a long-time fantasy reader.  Without spoiling anything, I want to take Tad Williams' Memory Sorrow and Thorn as an example.  I read that series about twenty years ago but I highly recommend it.  Martin used this series as an inspiration, and I can't even describe how many things he has used from that series in this one, from an unnaturally long winter, to named swords, to the races, different possibilities for parentage, the Others (read Sithi), etc.  As readers, we are given a number of hints as to the main character, Simon's, parentage, no more nor less than what we find indicating RLJ, and that father was my main suspicion through the series.  There are a few more symbolic clues hinting at someone else.  It turns out to be the someone else.   Simon's parentage is not revealed until the end, and the story behind it, even the kingship, reveals a different story than what we had been led to expect.  Kudos to Wiliiams too, because by that time Simon and the rest of the characters are so war weary they hardly care who his mom and dad are. I suspect Jon might feel the same by the end of the books and so will we.

 

The books suggest R&L=J, there is no doubt about that, and it is also a logical theory, one I did glean from reading the story on my own over the last (gasp!) twenty years.  But a majority of digital fandom is insisting it must be cast in concrete, and I think that misleading. Circumstances change, the real story of the TOJ will emerge, things we were not privy to will be revealed. So I'm reserving a little doubt about R&L=J, and a huge amount of doubt on accepted theories on how the whole thing went down.  Doesn't mean I don't want to hear them though!

 

Can Jon be a Dayne?  Yes, he could.  I think it more likely he's Arthur's than Ashara's if that's the case, because all Jon's symbolism points to Lyanna as his mother.  Also, I think I prefer Arthur to Rhaegar; he seems more Lyanna's type from the little bit we know of her personality, and his king's guard vow might not be so glaring an obstacle to her as Rhaegar's wife would be.  And if you read the World Book, and some of the spec about the GEotDawn, it's pretty evident that Dawn the sword has a far lengthier and more illustrious ancestry than a meteor in Starfall, so that if Jon's a Dayne, and more importantly the next Sword of the Morning, he's got an uncorrupted (by blood magic and sorcery) heritage that beats Rhaegar's all to hell. I still think it's R&L=J but I can see some exciting possibilities from the World Book that would make A+L=J  much more exciting if they panned out. 

 

I'm interested to see what the show does with it.  From the many people I know who watch GOT, but haven't been on forums, none of them suspect R&L=J.  I have to bite my tongue!

 

:bowdown:

[Mithras]

a fuckin' hate Daynes

[Lady Barbrey]

 

The Dayne's are in Ned's TOJ dream, and numerous accounts of Knights scattered about Westeros (mostly referring to Ser Arthur Dayne who was pivotal in whatever went down at the TOJ). Then of course there are the references to Ashara and the greatsword Dawn as well. I couldn't find the interview (it was few years ago) but I'm also positive GRRM said the Daynes will play a larger role in the future. 

 

But to say only Barristan mentions the Daynes is flat out wrong. They are mentioned numerous times. 

Especially by Jaime.  He's obsessed with Arthur Dayne.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

This.

 

Also, the proponents of alt-R+L=J theories don't do a very good job explaining why Ned was so secretive about Jon's parentage. If Jon is Ashara Dayne's son, no one besides Cat and Jon himself would care.

 

However, if Jon is his sister's son with Rhaegar Targaryen, that explains both Ned's secrecy and his torment... because the man we meet in AGOT is tormented with his secrets and "lies."

 

It's also better storytelling than the alternatives. If Jon is the child of anyone else, it wouldn't mean that his life would be forfeit. In fact, given that the Daynes are Dornish, it's cruel of Ned to not give him the option of going to Starfall and living in a region where he won't face a bastard's shame.

 

If Jon is the son of the defeated Targaryen heir, especially if Lyanna married Rhaegar, that raises the stakes. Ned lies to protect Jon's life, and House Stark for sheltering him. Cat can't know because Ned wants to protect her just in case the worst happens. And Jon is shielded from suspicion of being the lost prince by being covered with bastardy -- no one will suspect that the honorable Ned Stark would lie about it, and the strong family resemblance only helps.

 

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

 

This never actually happened

 

 

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

 

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

 

There's just Catelyn saying he wouldn't tell her in the first 2 weeks that she lived in Winterfell. And in what world do you go and tell your new wife that you don't know who you cheated on her with lol.

 

 

I think that R+L=J is a safe bet, and will be revealed in TWoW. 

 

Really, it's a brilliant backstory, and he's to be commended for it.

 

So GRRM is only a great writer when he writes what you want him to write.

 

 

When GRRM wrote it in, he couldn't have anticipated social media or his books being made into the most popular TV series in the world.

 

So the already critically acclaimed and award winning GRRM wrote a series of books that he never expected to become popular or widely read? This is the guy who says he writes books to make money. Which requires selling lots of books.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Yea the whole looking at Dany made me feel like it was almost the ghost of Rhaegar!

 

Or it's forshadowing RLD. Odd how so many of the RLJ "clues" pop up around Dany instead of Jon

[Pancakes1800]

I think I have a different perspective on the parentage thing as a long-time fantasy reader.  Without spoiling anything, I want to take Tad Williams' Memory Sorrow and Thorn as an example.  I read that series about twenty years ago but I highly recommend it.  Martin used this series as an inspiration, and I can't even describe how many things he has used from that series in this one, from an unnaturally long winter, to named swords, to the races, different possibilities for parentage, the Others (read Sithi), etc.  As readers, we are given a number of hints as to the main character, Simon's, parentage, no more nor less than what we find indicating RLJ, and that father was my main suspicion through the series.  There are a few more symbolic clues hinting at someone else.  It turns out to be the someone else.   Simon's parentage is not revealed until the end, and the story behind it, even the kingship, reveals a different story than what we had been led to expect.  Kudos to Wiliiams too, because by that time Simon and the rest of the characters are so war weary they hardly care who his mom and dad are. I suspect Jon might feel the same by the end of the books and so will we.

 

The books suggest R&L=J, there is no doubt about that, and it is also a logical theory, one I did glean from reading the story on my own over the last (gasp!) twenty years.  But a majority of digital fandom is insisting it must be cast in concrete, and I think that misleading. Circumstances change, the real story of the TOJ will emerge, things we were not privy to will be revealed. So I'm reserving a little doubt about R&L=J, and a huge amount of doubt on accepted theories on how the whole thing went down.  Doesn't mean I don't want to hear them though!

 

Can Jon be a Dayne?  Yes, he could.  I think it more likely he's Arthur's than Ashara's if that's the case, because all Jon's symbolism points to Lyanna as his mother.  Also, I think I prefer Arthur to Rhaegar; he seems more Lyanna's type from the little bit we know of her personality, and his king's guard vow might not be so glaring an obstacle to her as Rhaegar's wife would be.  And if you read the World Book, and some of the spec about the GEotDawn, it's pretty evident that Dawn the sword has a far lengthier and more illustrious ancestry than a meteor in Starfall, so that if Jon's a Dayne, and more importantly the next Sword of the Morning, he's got an uncorrupted (by blood magic and sorcery) heritage that beats Rhaegar's all to hell. I still think it's R&L=J but I can see some exciting possibilities from the World Book that would make A+L=J  much more exciting if they panned out.

 

I'm interested to see what the show does with it.  From the many people I know who watch GOT, but haven't been on forums, none of them suspect R&L=J.  I have to bite my tongue!

Arthur Dayne has been mentioned once through 5 seasons and that was when Jaime and Joffrey were going through the White Book and was mentioned for all of 2 seconds.  Ashara Dayne has yet to be mentioned and no other Dayne has been mentioned, hell even Dawn hasn't been mentioned.  Rhaegar and Lyanna are mentioned about once per season and in Ep 4 of season 5 they talked several times about Rhaegar.  We'll learn more in season 6.  

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think I have a different perspective on the parentage thing as a long-time fantasy reader.  Without spoiling anything, I want to take Tad Williams' Memory Sorrow and Thorn as an example.  I read that series about twenty years ago but I highly recommend it.  Martin used this series as an inspiration, and I can't even describe how many things he has used from that series in this one, from an unnaturally long winter, to named swords, to the races, different possibilities for parentage, the Others (read Sithi), etc.  As readers, we are given a number of hints as to the main character, Simon's, parentage, no more nor less than what we find indicating RLJ, and that father was my main suspicion through the series.  There are a few more symbolic clues hinting at someone else.  It turns out to be the someone else.   Simon's parentage is not revealed until the end, and the story behind it, even the kingship, reveals a different story than what we had been led to expect.  Kudos to Wiliiams too, because by that time Simon and the rest of the characters are so war weary they hardly care who his mom and dad are. I suspect Jon might feel the same by the end of the books and so will we.

 

The books suggest R&L=J, there is no doubt about that, and it is also a logical theory, one I did glean from reading the story on my own over the last (gasp!) twenty years.  But a majority of digital fandom is insisting it must be cast in concrete, and I think that misleading. Circumstances change, the real story of the TOJ will emerge, things we were not privy to will be revealed. So I'm reserving a little doubt about R&L=J, and a huge amount of doubt on accepted theories on how the whole thing went down.  Doesn't mean I don't want to hear them though!

 

Can Jon be a Dayne?  Yes, he could.  I think it more likely he's Arthur's than Ashara's if that's the case, because all Jon's symbolism points to Lyanna as his mother.  Also, I think I prefer Arthur to Rhaegar; he seems more Lyanna's type from the little bit we know of her personality, and his king's guard vow might not be so glaring an obstacle to her as Rhaegar's wife would be.  And if you read the World Book, and some of the spec about the GEotDawn, it's pretty evident that Dawn the sword has a far lengthier and more illustrious ancestry than a meteor in Starfall, so that if Jon's a Dayne, and more importantly the next Sword of the Morning, he's got an uncorrupted (by blood magic and sorcery) heritage that beats Rhaegar's all to hell. I still think it's R&L=J but I can see some exciting possibilities from the World Book that would make A+L=J  much more exciting if they panned out. 

 

I'm interested to see what the show does with it.  From the many people I know who watch GOT, but haven't been on forums, none of them suspect R&L=J.  I have to bite my tongue!

 

I'm a long time fantasy reader as well. The problem with A+L=J is that there are still too many holes to patch.

 

I'd wonder why Jon couldn't have any contact with the Daynes. I'd also question why there were three KG at the ToJ instead of with Viserys and Dany. 

 

Arthur + Lyanna = Jon is a nice idea, but I don't see extensive evidence for it.

[Lord Wraith]

I know most people consider what is said in interviews by him as truth, I'm not one of them..

 

 

 

If you're looking for a "clue" then I'd point to the text where Rhaegar calls the baby Aegon.

 

Right. But it doesn't need to have actually happened for the people in the vision who appear to be Elia and Aegon to be Elia and Aegon, as opposed to Lyanna and Jon.

 

Indeed.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

 

So GRRM is only a great writer when he writes what you want him to write.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Of course GRRM is a great writer when he writes exactly what I want him to write. I actually wanted him to kill off Ned, then murder his wife, son, and half his bannermen at a wedding feast. I was also a fan of "fat pink mast," Darkstar, and the entire Meereen plot.

 

Arthur Dayne has been mentioned once through 5 seasons and that was when Jaime and Joffrey were going through the White Book and was mentioned for all of 2 seconds.  Ashara Dayne has yet to be mentioned and no other Dayne has been mentioned, hell even Dawn hasn't been mentioned.  Rhaegar and Lyanna are mentioned about once per season and in Ep 4 of season 5 they talked several times about Rhaegar.  We'll learn more in season 6.  

 

:agree:  But just as a reminder, we can't use the show to prove what will happen in the books in this forum...

 

[spoiler]Even if R+L=J gets revealed on the show, if it happens before the release of TWoW, you'll have posters here arguing that GRRM will make Jon's parents different to spite D&D. Hope he beats Season 6.[/spoiler]