Doran's folly

[Danelle]

 

The problem I have with this 'theory' (quotes because it's not really a theory as such more a reasonable assumption) is that Quentyn doesn't need a POV to serve this purpose. 

Well, I suppose that GRRM needed to reader to know exactly how Quentyn attempted to tame the dragons. Dany was gone-and I strongly doubt that even if she was present, she would have allowed Quentyn to ride any of her dragon, by that time even herself she hadn't dared and when she did was under an extremely stressful situation. Barristan Selmy also would have prohibited Quentyn from proceeding with his bold plan. 

 

I agree with GRRM's choice to have the reader know exactly what happened to Quentyn and how, which is only possible if he is a POV. 

[Hangover of the Morning]

I believe that GRRM needed to find a way to destroy any potential alliance between Dany and the Martells.

Doran and Oberyn were so desperate to avenge their sister and her babies, that they intended for Princess Arianne to marry the Mad King's son, a spoiled Targaryen who lived in exile and the only person who took care of him, was Ser Willem Darry.

 

Then when Darry died. Viserys became Dany's guardian and was responsible for raising and protecting her.

Many awful things might have happened to Aerys' children, Viserys barely managed to get by. He could have  done lots of unpredictable things, such as remarrying. In the end he gave his sister to a dothraki Khal, following Illyrio's plan.

 

By the time poor Quentyn arrived in Meereen, he had lost members of his group and he was utterly unprepared to face a Targaryen Queen, a khal's widow, a woman who had brought the dragons back and caused political unrest in Slaver's Bay.

 

The dragons could have been freed by anyone, even Hizdahr could have realesed, hoping to tame them, but Doran wouldn't have cared of the dragons had killed a Meereeneese noble. He will care once he is told that the dragons killed his boy.

 

Even if Dany apologises, even if Barristan himself provides Doran with a detailed description of Quentyn's disastrous plan, Doran's anger and sadness will not be satisfied. 

 

Arianne, who had spent a significant part of her life feeling that Quentyn craved her place as Doran's heir, wouldn't be pleased either.

Currently she is on her way to meet Aegon, and it is ironic that the Martells might support a mere pretender instead of a real Targaryen.

[spoiler]In the WOW, Arianne is clearly wary of Daenerys.

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King's daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know -- "

"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."
[/spoiler]

 

If that's the case then I have lost quite a bit of respect for GRRM as a writer. Creating a rift between Danny and the Martells could have been done in two sentence, there was no need to invent a windy, illogical and uninteresting subplot. Quentyn wasn't necessary by any means but even if he was, his whole adventure could have happened off-screen and we still wouldn't miss anything. 

[sifth]

Well, I suppose that GRRM needed to reader to know exactly how Quentyn attempted to tame the dragons. Dany was gone-and I strongly doubt that even if she was present, she would have allowed Quentyn to ride any of her dragon, by that time even herself she hadn't dared and when she did was under an extremely stressful situation. Barristan Selmy also would have prohibited Quentyn from proceeding with his bold plan. 
 
I agree with GRRM's choice to have the reader know exactly what happened to Quentyn and how, which is only possible if he is a POV. 

This could have been done in a more clever way, without having the reader waste time on a throw away POV.

This is like giving Oberyn a POV and then having The Mountain kill him. George found a clever way around that by simply making it a public battle.

Assuming this POV had to be done, it doesn't change the facts that his first two chapters were useless.

[Danelle]

 

If that's the case then I have lost quite a bit of respect for GRRM as a writer. Creating a rift between Danny and the Martells could have been done in two sentence, there was no need to invent a windy, illogical and uninteresting subplot. Quentyn wasn't necessary by any means but even if he was, his whole adventure could have happened off-screen and we still wouldn't miss anything. 

 

 

This could have been done in a more clever way, without having the reader waste time on a throw away POV.

This is like giving Oberyn a POV and then having The Mountain kill him. George found a clever way around that by simply making it a public battle.

Assuming this POV had to be done, it doesn't change the facts that his first two chapters were useless.

Quentyn was a significant part of Meereeneese Knot.

 

 

 

Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc., and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's the plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen...

All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet.

It's not that GRRM didn't struggle with Quentyn. The three alternative arrivals probably had a different impact. Even though I am convinced that in every scenario he ends up dead, the other versions of his arrival would be significantly different.

 

The part that puzzles me is GRRM referencing the character who has yet arrive. I suppose that his presence might had an effect on Quentyn which was lost when GRRM decided not to include that character. 

[sifth]

Quentyn's only effect on the story is freeing the dragons and getting killed. Everything else appears to be meaningless.


George must be losing it if he thought simply making him a POV would get us to care about him.

[Anythingatall]

Quentyn's only effect on the story is freeing the dragons and getting killed. Everything else appears to be meaningless.


George must be losing it if he thought simply making him a POV would get us to care about him.

 

I think writers must get rather attached to their creations.  Maybe GRRM wanted us to know why Quentyn did what he did simply because he was fond of the poor lad.  Admittedly this doesn't make for good writing.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Quentyn's POV really does seemed forced and inorganic. It's like GRRM had to come up with the whole Windblown/Tatters on the spot to give Quentyn something to do, and that's a textbook example of filler. It's because of tangents like this that the story is becoming unmanageable.

There's no reason why everything important Quentyn did, including freeing the dragons, couldn't have been told from Barristan's POV. But I guess GRRM wanted his Amazing Race-style POVs, and that's how we ended up with Quentyn and Victarion.

[WSmith84]

Quentyn's POV really does seemed forced and inorganic. It's like GRRM had to come up with the whole Windblown/Tatters on the spot to give Quentyn something to do, and that's a textbook example of filler. It's because of tangents like this that the story is becoming unmanageable.

There's no reason why everything important Quentyn did, including freeing the dragons, couldn't have been told from Barristan's POV. But I guess GRRM wanted his Amazing Race-style POVs, and that's how we ended up with Quentyn and Victarion.

 

George could have just given us the PoV chapter of Quentyn attempting to tame the dragon. We definitely didn't need the previous chapters. But even the dragon taming chapter could have been worked in some other way. Maybe Barry could have discovered them attempting to steal the dragons and relayed the important stuff.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Are The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring already published? Were can I get my copy to read upon all these fascinating storylines not being connected to Quentyn's PoV in the slightest?

[Good Guy Garlan]

George could have just given us the PoV chapter of Quentyn attempting to tame the dragon. We definitely didn't need the previous chapters. But even the dragon taming chapter could have been worked in some other way. Maybe Barry could have discovered them attempting to steal the dragons and relayed the important stuff.

Yes, and that would've been a seriously good chapter. Barry fights with Krazz, arrests Hizdahr, then someone tells him something's going on at the dragon pit, he goes there and sees Quentyn trying to tame Viseryon and getting BBQ'd. Then we get the details from Drink and Arch when Barry questions them in the next chapter.

That's using the aGoT/aCoK/aSoS method of storytelling, which was plot before narration: first and foremost there's the event, the stuff that happens, and then GRRM selected the POV more suited to narrate the chapter. With Quentyn is the other way around, because the POV is placed before the plot, since GRRM has to make up plot to fit the POV, when it should be the other way around.

[WSmith84]

Yes, and that would've been a seriously good chapter. Barry fights with Krazz, arrests Hizdahr, then someone tells him something's going on at the dragon pit, he goes there and sees Quentyn trying to tame Viseryon and getting BBQ'd. Then we get the details from Drink and Arch when Barry questions them in the next chapter.

That's using the aGoT/aCoK/aSoS method of storytelling, which was plot before narration: first and foremost there's the event, the stuff that happens, and then GRRM selected the POV more suited to narrate the chapter. With Quentyn is the other way around, because the POV is placed before the plot, since GRRM has to make up plot to fit the POV, when it should be the other way around.

 

I personally thought that Barry's chapters were the most interesting thing in Meereen. I love his detached manner when dispatching Krazz. Seeing the dragon taming attempt from an outside PoV would have been, in many ways, as interesting as seeing it from the dragontamer himself.

[sifth]

Are The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring already published? Were can I get my copy to read upon all these fascinating storylines not being connected to Quentyn's PoV in the slightest?

 

Keep dreaming man, keep dreaming. I'm sure Quentyn's adventures in the east will end up being just as important as the wonderful tale of Arys Oakheart. I'm sure, both characters will have a major effect on the story, lol

[Anythingatall]

 

Keep dreaming man, keep dreaming. I'm sure Quentyn's adventures in the east will end up being just as important as the wonderful tale of Arys Oakheart. I'm sure, both characters will have a major effect on the story, lol

 

All things Dornish are inexplicable.  If GRRM does manage to pull the mess together somehow I will be truly humbled.  

[Nordahl iceskin]

In the mean time let's just be blindly critical.

[Anythingatall]

In the mean time let's just be blindly critical.

 

Why not?  If I am wrong I will admit it with cheer.  I love GRRM, I love his books otherwise I wouldn't have joined a forum to discuss them.  Naturally part of that discussion is going to be critical.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Keep dreaming man, keep dreaming. I'm sure Quentyn's adventures in the east will end up being just as important as the wonderful tale of Arys Oakheart. I'm sure, both characters will have a major effect on the story, lol

And if his chapters turn out to be "important" and we have to follow what I'm sure would be a fascinating subplot about the Tattered Prince's conquest of Pentos from the POV of Dick Straw (*vomits*), then I'd count that as a strike against GRRM.

[idio]

Are The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring already published? Were can I get my copy to read upon all these fascinating storylines not being connected to Quentyn's PoV in the slightest?

 

I take it this is sarcasm and yoy are pointing out that It's unfair in that we don't know exactly what the consequences will be of Quentyn's Pov.

 

I don't disagree, but so far it seems likely that he was just a oneoff of no deep significance. I mean, is he going to be in the show? They are definitely different works at this point, but I would think if he had real significance he would make the cast.

[In A Coat of Gold]

 

If Aegon and his lot have a good chance to succeed, then would that matter whether he is legit?

 

Considering this boy would be impersonating Doran's beloved sister's son, it would matter quite a bit. It's been shown how sentimental Doran is.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Quentyn's only effect on the story is freeing the dragons and getting killed. Everything else appears to be meaningless.


George must be losing it if he thought simply making him a POV would get us to care about him.

 

He shows the power of dragon blood. Quentyn. He's actually damn close to taming Viserion.

 

 

On a more practical level, his death, and the slow way news travels from the East will keep Doran from throwing his lot in with Aegon quickly.

[Nordahl iceskin]

 

Why not?  If I am wrong I will admit it with cheer.  I love GRRM, I love his books otherwise I wouldn't have joined a forum to discuss them.  Naturally part of that discussion is going to be critical.

"blindly critical"

 

There is just a tad bit of difference between saying you don't like the dorne storyline, which is how I feel, and saying Dorne has no importance in the story. All of the dornish chapters combined probably don't even add up to eddards chapters in one book alone, so they have barely been introduced at this point.