Capitalism is Stupid and it Sucks.

[Wise Fool]

Look, the thread is titled the way it is because I'm not an overeducated asshole like most of you. I work at a grocery store. I make about five cents above the (local) minimum wage. I drink four times a week and puke blood. I'm not going to try and impress you with how erudite or empircally whatever who the fuck cares about any of that shit, like really.

 

Point is, capitalism isn't just "nice but has some flaws we could improve on," it is flawed.

 

Like democracy. Democracy is government based on the appeal-to-popularity fallacy. "Do it, all the cool kids are doing it" is apparently unconvincing and wrong when it comes to, say, drugs and alcohol, but as a system of government hey let's go for it! And the result is, well, blood and horror and death but not for you, obviously. Just for some others. Let's not think about them too much.

 

Capitalism is based on the idea that, basically, money buys you happiness, and money equals worth. So, rich people are successful and worth more - every institution we have treats them thus - and poor people are failures and worthless. Not just every institution: people, in general, for the most part, treat other people like this.

 

I know, I know. It sound simplistic. Surely life and social situtations. All a bit more complicated and nuanced than that? No. No they aren't. We have a caste system in this country, and if you don't think we do, congratulations on being born into one of the less unpleasant castes.

 

But money doesn't bring you happiness. Money can just help you buy off unhappiness. So it's not that rich people are more happy, it's that poor people are more unhappy. Given that money is more negatively focused, you'd think any fair, right, just, morally good society would focus on eliminating poverty. I mean it's only the theme of every major religion in every civilization since the beginning of culture, no big deal, love your neighbor, don't kill people, and also, get the merchants out of the temple, amiright?

 

But nope. Not in the US. In the US the merchants have purchased the temple, put on priest hats, and everyone goes there to worship the god of money. Here, we despise the poor. The sick. The needy. Fucking hate them. Let's torture them and imprison them or at least ignore them while we focus on our fucking "first world problems" which, if you think about it, is kind of a stupid fucking phrase. (First world problems do, in case anyone was unaware, include theft, rape, murder, suicide, mental disorder, malnutrition etc etc. It's just not "first world" to most middle and upper caste members who've come up with it on their ipads while taking the bus to their cushy office jobs and drinking Starbucks while griping about Mondays or whatever: because these are not, generally, a part of their subjective experiences. BUT I DIGRESS)

 

It's all backwards and fucked up but I can see how it appeals to the primitive brain-stem for most of the mouth-breathing fuckwits out there who can drive cars only beacuse other drivers are paying fucking attention. People who obliviously stumble and bumble theire way through every day like fucking Jar-Jar, and succeeding only because society, like George Lucas, makes them Mary Sues. Goddam, I mean how many people have kids who aren't fit to be parents? I see your goddam clans every day at the store, with the neglected, blockheaded children running around putting their lives in danger and everyone else's but hey, you wouldn't want to miss out on that deal! It says 2 for $5, better buy two so you'll get that deal! I mean holy FUCK how stupid are most of you? Pretty goddam fucking stupid, if you ask me!

 

But it's okay because I'm a menial worker who's had a bit to drink and is having life problems. Don't worry. The religion is sacrosanct still. Nothing I said can't be explained. Here, I'll give you an upper leg: clearly I've made some bad life decisions, probably I'm lazy, or stupid, or whatever, so it's all right that I make probably a quarter what you do and will die alone. The poor are poor because reasons. And hey, it's not like I'm super poor, there are people in Africa or whatever who are even more poor, or whatever. We can marginalize and dismiss literally any unpleasant fact I've said, including that capitalism is flawed and stupid and we are all flawed and stupid for supporting it in any way.

 

The only morally just economic system is one which prevents and treats poverty and suffering.

 

Oh hey there's a sale at Penny's.

[The King in Black]

You're super late to the party bro

[sologdin]

a moral objection to capitalism is a pre-capitalist objection that capitalism destroyed when it expropriated aristocrats and executed monarchs--which are events that we should all cheer unambiguously.

i'd avoid a cognitionist's criticism ('stupid') and the merely gustatory ('sucks'). 'caste' implies a level of de jure immobility that the US lacks after the dismantling of jim crow; we do have class in the marxist sense, however, and that's bad enough--but it is a de facto arrangement that calls for de facto solutions--whereas caste requires de jure solutions. the misdiagnosis is fatal insofar as the remedy will not be effective.

[Castel]

Seems less like just a problem with capitalism and more a problem with...everything?

 

EDIT: To be clear: your rant (which seems aimed at things in society you dislike in general) and some of the specific problems within it, not the general problems of capitalism, or the general problems as you frame them.

[Fragile Bird]

One does wonder if capitalism and democracy can co-exist.

[Quoth]

You had a bet with someone that you could get Solo to be within the first five posters in a thread that you started. That's it, right? ;)

[Commodore]

Is Capitalism Moral?
 
socialism is immoral because it doesn't require one to serve his fellow man to receive wealth

The only morally just economic system is one which prevents and treats poverty and suffering.

This system does not exist.

[Wise Fool]

Is Capitalism Moral?

 

 

Perfect example of how people talk about capitalism or its aspects in a religious sense. "The Free Market" is spoken of like "The Creator" and given convenient mystical powers and ascribed an air of moral authority because.

 

Anyway, his point is that the free market is superior to any other economic system. My point is that capitalism, as an economic system, is stupid, and it sucks. You see how these are incompatible points.

 

It's sort of like how one can say, legitimately, that that youtube channel, which might better be titled The Idiot's Guide to Right Wing Ideology, is superior to many other youtube channels. But one can also, quite accurately, point out that that channel is stupid, and it sucks. As a defense, "it could be worse" is never very strong, but it's beside my point entirely.

 

Thank you for your well thought out reply even if you weren't doing the thinking which you weren't. And not all that well thought out anyway. And not really a reply.

[Commodore]

My point is that capitalism, as an economic system, is stupid, and it sucks. You see how these are incompatible points.

 

 

That's not really much of a point at all, just a declaration. 

[Hayyoth]

It's like the last 100 years didn't happen for some people.

[Wise Fool]

a moral objection to capitalism is a pre-capitalist objection that capitalism destroyed when it expropriated aristocrats and executed monarchs--which are events that we should all cheer unambiguously.

i'd avoid a cognitionist's criticism ('stupid') and the merely gustatory ('sucks'). 'caste' implies a level of de jure immobility that the US lacks after the dismantling of jim crow; we do have class in the marxist sense, however, and that's bad enough--but it is a de facto arrangement that calls for de facto solutions--whereas caste requires de jure solutions. the misdiagnosis is fatal insofar as the remedy will not be effective.

Really, just change some laws and that's the remedy for a caste system? I think it's a bit more de facto than that dude. What's the remedy anyway? I think this disease humanity has is genetic and irreversible and terminal. But people don't even think it's a disease. Much like climate change. Just deny deny deny the facts. Why would people do that sort of thing? If not for purely subjective, emotional reasons. To ease the distress, perhaps even, moral outrage, that they would otherwise normally feel to look at this shit. At this shit. This modern day Sodom. Who gets rewarded most? For what? Not the deserving, for hard work, as we are told is how it is. Who gets punished most? Those who have been punished most. Rich get richer, poor get poorer. Abuse victims get abused. It's all right there in any city, all out in the open, but who wants to think about that? It's boring, it's trite, and what can you do? So you just focus on your own shit. And things get shittier, because everyone is doing this. There's no remedy. There's no ideology to come along and change things. Even people who advance ideologies, like Commodore, don't pretend their ideologies will work. Nothing will.

 

So, I can call class caste and evil stupid, because it doesn't matter and ultimately this ranting of mine isn't purposed to win hearts and minds. Frankly, I do it for the same reasons anyone does anything: selfishness.

[Arkhangel]

 

Anyway, his point is that the free market is superior to any other economic system. My point is that capitalism, as an economic system, is stupid, and it sucks. You see how these are incompatible points.

 

It's sort of like how one can say, legitimately, that that youtube channel, which might better be titled The Idiot's Guide to Right Wing Ideology, is superior to many other youtube channels. But one can also, quite accurately, point out that that channel is stupid, and it sucks. As a defense, "it could be worse" is never very strong, but it's beside my point entirely.

 

These are not incompatible points. It's possible that The Idiot's Guide to Right Wing Ideology can be stupid and suck and still be better than every other youtube channel which currently exists.

 

Capitalism and democracy are both least-worst systems. They suck, but they suck less than any of the realistic alternatives.
 

[maarsen]

One does wonder if capitalism and democracy can co-exist.

Only if democracy has constitutional limits put on it, but not so strict that the voice of the people have no say in the redistribution of wealth. Once oligarchies are allowed, democracy will falter, but pure democracy can create mob rule. Trying to find the sweet spot  where democracy and capitalism can both exist is like trying to find a solution to the Travelling Salesman problem. Nobody has yet found a solution but no one has yet shown that it is unsolvable either.

[sologdin]

It's like the last 100 years didn't happen for some people.

aside from the smug silliness of this contribution, WF's thesis is founded on pre-capitalist objections; in an important way, the last several hundred years may as well have not happened when the objection is

this disease humanity has is genetic and irreversible and terminal [...] This modern day Sodom

this is the rhetoric of proto-fascistic nihilism, a la cioran. it is fundamentally pre-modern, irredeemably arriere garde, & misanthropically rightwing.

[Castel]

Only if democracy has constitutional limits put on it, but not so strict that the voice of the people have no say in the redistribution of wealth. Once oligarchies are allowed, democracy will falter, but pure democracy can create mob rule. Trying to find the sweet spot  where democracy and capitalism can both exist is like trying to find a solution to the Travelling Salesman problem. Nobody has yet found a solution but no one has yet shown that it is unsolvable either.

 

Tangent on something I notice a lot:

 

"Pure" democracy...I've yet to see anyone seriously talk about "pure" democracy beyond explaining that pure democracy is different from what we consider democracy so I've always been a bit unclear on why that distinction would ever be necessary. 

 

For example: I'd be willing to wager that Fragile Bird wasn't worried about a constitution-free democracy or the sort of early -democracy you would see in some city-state around the Mediterranean before Jesus came around.

[Hayyoth]

aside from the smug silliness of this contribution, WF's thesis is founded on pre-capitalist objections; in an important way, the last several hundred years may as well have not happened when the objection is

this is the rhetoric of proto-fascistic nihilism, a la cioran. it is fundamentally pre-modern, irredeemably arriere garde, & misanthropically rightwing.

You'll have to explain what you mean by 'pre capitalist'. It's like some people imagine there's a set of rules laid out by Money McMoneybags in the year 1793 telling us rightwing shitlords how to do capitalism properly. If you mean pre free markets then you'll be going back aways, if you mean pre founding of the Dutch East India Company or whatever then maybe say so?

[Castel]

aside from the smug silliness of this contribution, WF's thesis is founded on pre-capitalist objections; in an important way, the last several hundred years may as well have not happened when the objection is

this is the rhetoric of proto-fascistic nihilism, a la cioran. it is fundamentally pre-modern, irredeemably arriere garde, & misanthropically rightwing.

Quite ironic to me that he attributes the explanation for all actions and motivations to selfishness (even worse, a sort of  uninformative selfishness) , which I've noticed is a common talking point for the capitalist fanatics he seems to hate.

[The Marquis de Leech]

One thing that gets forgotten today: between the 1930s and the 1970s, the term capitalism simply wasn't used in western politics. Why? Because of its association with the failed economics of the Depression era. The term free enterprise was used instead. Not until liberal economics (meant in the non-US sense) re-emerged in the late 20th century did capitalism also re-emerge from the grave.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Is democracy the best? The best, most stable and prosperous countries in the world are democracies, but there are so many failed democracies in the world that I think it's probably something else* that makes said countries successful.

 

*That something else isn't a codeword for race or white people.

 

As for capitalism. It sucks, but it's better than anything else that's been tried.

[Commodore]

As for capitalism. It sucks, but it's better than anything else that's been tried.

 

That means it's great, relatively speaking.