Rant & Rave without repercussion S 5/S 6 speculation continued [book and show spoilers]

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Honestly, I think I just threw up in my mouth with the latest round of theories on tumblr. Let's presume, and I think depending on Winds, it might be a fair assessment,  that Sansa indeed goes to Winterfell with the Vale's army. Now, since the latest theory (I don't think there's any basis to it, but then again, I never thought the theory that Sansa would get raped  would come to pass and here we are) involves Rickon dying, then that would mean that Sansa is the heiress and might come to be Wardeness/Queen. Now, that might happen on the books (I don't believe it's the case, but let's imagine) , but if she does become so there, she wasn't raped on the place she's supposed to rule. Also, she's a virgin, which means in a Medieval society, she's fair game to rule. It was usually difficult to separate the marital power between man and wife and her right to rule. People usually thought the man controlled the woman, and therefore, the nation.

Fansa's not only married to her enemy, consummated and everything, but she has no political ground to claim such a thing. What's the basis? Is she's just going to trot around as the last one standing and people will buy it because yes? And she'll be fine with ruling and living on the place she was raped? Apparently she is either way, since she's been spotted at Winterfell, but still. Not to mention, if it does come to pass on the books, she doesn't defeat the Boltons out of a rape-revenge fantasy. 

And I haven't even started on Jaime. And how they are going to make him look like a jack-ass now that he'll leave post-WOS Cersei. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa is not known to be anywhere filming for  season 6 but Winterfell and the Battlefield of the Bastards which must be near by. For all intensive purposes, she may have been recaptured by Ramsay as i cannot imagine her walking into Winterfell for a meeting with Ramsay BEFORE the battle takes place as suggested by Sue the Fury. I think they will further ruin or twist her story that began with the travesty last season. Again though, if the Winds of Winter has her moving in this general direction ( I doubt it) I will reconsider some of my criticism of the show for her Plot season 5 moving foreward.

[Le Cygne]

Honestly, I think I just threw up in my mouth with the latest round of theories on tumblr. Let's presume, and I think depending on Winds, it might be a fair assessment,  that Sansa indeed goes to Winterfell with the Vale's army. Now, since the latest theory (I don't think there's any basis to it, but then again, I never thought the theory that Sansa would get raped  would come to pass and here we are) involves Rickon dying, then that would mean that Sansa is the heiress and might come to be Wardeness/Queen. Now, that might happen on the books (I don't believe it's the case, but let's imagine) , but if she does become so there, she wasn't raped on the place she's supposed to rule. Also, she's a virgin, which means in a Medieval society, she's fair game to rule. It was usually difficult to separate the marital power between man and wife and her right to rule. People usually thought the man controlled the woman, and therefore, the nation.

Fansa's not only married to her enemy, consummated and everything, but she has no political ground to claim such a thing. What's the basis? Is she's just going to trot around as the last one standing and people will buy it because yes? And she'll be fine with ruling and living on the place she was raped? Apparently she is either way, since she's been spotted at Winterfell, but still. Not to mention, if it does come to pass on the books, she doesn't defeat the Boltons out of a rape-revenge fantasy. 

And I haven't even started on Jaime. And how they are going to make him look like a jack-ass now that he'll leave post-WOS Cersei. 

It doesn't make any sense, does it. On the show, she is passed from one psycho (Joffrey) to another (LF) to another (Ramsay) to another (LF) to another (Ramsay). Which we know is not going to happen in the books, it's much too much for one character, and it's completely absurd that she'd go back to LF, not to mention dramatically, it's sending her backwards.

And it's just more torture to have her engage with Ramsay again, in no way is she sufficiently healed enough to handle staring him down on a battlefield or courtyard. And it's cruel to make her go there. Is the point they are making that she thrives on being humiliated and abused by psychos? Because realistically, she'd be a basket case, instead of empowered by rape and revenge.

But if they wanted to do the right thing, after messing up so badly, they'd have given her a quiet season of low key and very much needed character development. Think about what they could have done, just with hinting at her warging ability. The stories she told Sweetrobin, those were hinting at that. And the stories of love, she still dreams of this, so explore that, too.

At what point does she get to be a person, and not just a plot device? Because it's horrible that they are putting her through all of this, without letting her define what being her own woman means, on her own terms.

And that's just her. Jaime. Another one they messed up, but I went on and on about him before. So much untapped dramatic potential. And they even have a funny actor playing him, they could have played that up.

Just his last scene with Hildy alone would have been good. He's looking at another woman, and that tells us he's over Cersei. Hildy asks what he likes in a woman and he says innocence. And Brienne walks in. There's a line where the wind in his hair feels like Cersei's fingers, then it feels like a woman's fingers. That's definitely what he was going for in the books, this gradual pulling away from Cersei and toward Brienne.

They dismiss romance, like it doesn't matter, but he uses the BatB stories in the books for character development. It's how the characters grow. And face new challenges. These are things that make them seem real. Things that motivate them. So they aren't just interchangeable units. Who they are and who they become is part of the story. It's not just about shock and awe.

[Le Cygne]

dup

[Valetudo]

Sansa is not known to be anywhere filming for  season 6 but Winterfell and the Battlefield of the Bastards which must be near by. For all intensive purposes, she may have been recaptured by Ramsay as i cannot imagine her walking into Winterfell for a meeting with Ramsay BEFORE the battle takes place as suggested by Sue the Fury. I think they will further ruin or twist her story that began with the travesty last season. Again though, if the Winds of Winter has her moving in this general direction ( I doubt it) I will reconsider some of my criticism of the show for her Plot season 5 moving foreward.

I believe nothing is impossible in the show at this point. Last season already proved that characters decisions don't need to make sense.

If D&D want Sansa meeting in WF before the battle, they'll do it. They just need to add someone telling her some badass argument in order to convince her (like AVENGE yourself!).

Even if her story goes somewhat in that direction in the future books, I don't think it's an excuse to forgive how contrived and nonsensical her show story has become. Because there's no way GRRM puts her in such position without giving at least understandable and/or believable reasons.

It's just like the "Shireen" problem. Even if she burns in the next book, it won't make her death in the show better for me, because the reasons for her sacrifice certainly wont be the same.

[Le Cygne]

It's just like the "Shireen" problem. Even if she burns in the next book, it won't make her death in the show better for me, because the reasons for her sacrifice certainly wont be the same.

Yeah, how things happen actually matters. There's no way it happens like that in the books. They all have to be completely different characters. And it's so odd that they don't seem to get that character and plot go together, you can't just swap people and events, or change who a person is, yet they do the same things. And even just having Ramsay call them "good" men was bad writing. Just like having him say rape made Sansa a woman. The audience hears these things, and they don't give them anything to counter them. Ramsay comes off like a hero with his good men (they do this with LF, too, avenge your family, so the family killer comes off like a hero). Sansa is never a woman on her own terms (that was in her own story that they cut). So the words are horrible, but they just hang there.

[Valetudo]

It seems that all it takes to justify nonsense are some bullshit excuses. They're betting on the audience to be distracted by them and forget about logic.

It's real that a vast majority of viewers doesn't care about this kind of things, and I believe it's OK. If someone wants to see this show for boobs/violence, fine by me. But that shouldn't be an excuse to strip the story of nuance or context, just because it's not essential to everybody.

This looks like a bad adaptation of something like a Grimm's fairy tale. Some people read them and only see the "Disney" side of it (by that I'm not saying that Disney's adaptations are bad, just that they're destined to a specific audience), and are happy with it. But these tales have something more in them, something that makes them interesting even for adults.

What's trending nowadays is to adapt these stories focusing on the "edgy" parts of them. Everything needs to be "mature" and "adult". But the spirit of the tale needs to stay the same in order to be a good adaptation. If not it's just a bad look alike.

Imagine a "sleeping beauty" adaptation where the prince charming finds the sleeping princess and rapes her before giving her a kiss, but then she dies anyway instead of awaking because the story needs to end badly to be "mature". That's not the same story, even if the prince did the same thing in the two stories (kissing the princess).

Actions alone are not what makes a story, and sex and violence are not the only ways to make it "mature".

[El Guapo]

My wish is that 10 or so years into the future, BBC or some other entity approaches GRRM and does a "by the book" 20 or so episodes a year adaptation that will embarrass D&D for the crap they have pulled in order to squeeze out over the top rape, vulger pandering to the villains of their show, AGOT

GRRM doesn't own the tv or movie rights to ASOIF.  He sold them to HBO.

[dread wolf]

What's Walda ever done?

walda is pregnant with a bolton and a bolton is always an enemy of the starks. they should become ruthless and calulating if they want their vengeance on the boltons, freys and lannisters(doubtful with them). They should not be naive as ned, catelyn robb.

[Valetudo]

walda is pregnant with a bolton and a bolton is always an enemy of the starks. they should become ruthless and calulating if they want their vengeance on the boltons, freys and lannisters(doubtful with them). They should not be naive as ned, catelyn robb.

"Ruthless", "vengeance", "kill her because she's pregnant", ...

No wonder D&D thought that show Ellaria was a best option than her book counterpart.

[SeanF]

Just yesterday I was thinking how, in books, Melisandre goes to elaborate a full plan in order to gain Jon's trust: make Mance infiltrate Winterfell to rescue Arya. Even she, who is worst than Sybill Trelawney, is aware that by giving him his little sister, he might soften a bit.

In the show, she just flashes him. "Look, my boobs... trust me...".

Disgusting.

Maybe they're magical boobs.  She'll resurrect Jon by flashing them at him.

[SeanF]

.

It's just like the "Shireen" problem. Even if she burns in the next book, it won't make her death in the show better for me, because the reasons for her sacrifice certainly wont be the same.

Assume for the sake of argument, that Melisandre burns Shireen in TWOW as part of a ritual to revive Jon.  I imagine that a big part of Jon's story would be how horribly conflicted he feels about it.  I think that would be interesting, and much more interesting than the Show's version.

[Le Cygne]

Maybe they're magical boobs.  She'll resurrect Jon by flashing them at him.

This is very likely, UnJon is revived by the power of her magical boobs. She has to be naked to channel the red god. Too bad it wasn't the same with Jaqen, every face change requires him to strip.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

This is very likely, UnJon is revived by the power of her magical boobs. She has to be naked to channel the red god. Too bad it wasn't the same with Jaqen, every face change requires him to strip.

That's an actual plot-point in GOT. Think about it - Has she ever done something for the red god that didn't involved talking about sex, having sex or stripping? I mean, Myranda's not blessed by the red god, but she's fine with wearing cleavage in the snowy wedding of Fansa and Ramsay, in what is supposed to be a harsh winter. Maybe their boobs are winter-proof and that's how they'll defeat the WW. 

[Tijgy]

I just think this must be so sad for Carice Van Houten. I might be wrong but I believe she is one of the most famous actress in the Netherlands (she plays at least a prominent roll in a lot movies of my netflix account when I am in the Netherlands). It is not that easy for a non-English speaking actor to break though in Hollywood. While they might be recognized as amazing actors in their home country, they would not get so easy a major part in an English production. They will probably get at most a minor part. And what would you chose if you can chose between an amazing (artistic) part in your home country or a minor part where you do nothing. 

In this (dutch) article Carice speaks about the fact she was really not anymore invested in her international ambitions because she did not get the opportunity to play complicated characters while she did have the possibility in the Netherlands. But then she "got the gift": the part of Melisandre. And now the only thing she does is showing her boobs. 

 I am really sad for my northern neighbour. (And a little happy they did not yet wasted a Flemish author. Matthias Schoenaerts, the actor I actively know of who is really becoming international famous, stay away of HBO! O no, he is apparently already casted in the a HBO production Lewis and Clarke as Clark! This is not good. Matthias, stay away! The Belgian ladies do not want to share you more with Americans! 

[SeanF]

I just think this must be so sad for Carice Van Houten. I might be wrong but I believe she is one of the most famous actress in the Netherlands (she plays at least a prominent roll in a lot movies of my netflix account when I am in the Netherlands). It is not that easy for a non-English speaking actor to break though in Hollywood. While they might be recognized as amazing actors in their home country, they would not get so easy a major part in an English production. They will probably get at most a minor part. And what would you chose if you can chose between an amazing (artistic) part in your home country or a minor part where you do nothing. 

In this (dutch) article Carice speaks about the fact she was really not anymore invested in her international ambitions because she did not get the opportunity to play complicated characters while she did have the possibility in the Netherlands. But then she "got the gift": the part of Melisandre. And now the only thing she does is showing her boobs. 

 I am really sad for my northern neighbour. (And a little happy they did not yet wasted a Flemish author. Matthias Schoenaerts, the actor I actively know of who is really becoming international famous, stay away of HBO! O no, he is apparently already casted in the a HBO production Lewis and Clarke as Clark! This is not good. Matthias, stay away! The Belgian ladies do not want to share you more with Americans! 

I think Melisandre is a good part for any actress to have on her CV.

But, whereas she's a mysterious and complex figure in the books, not exactly a hero, and not exactly a villain, the Show portrays her as flat-out villain, who strips off at every opportunity.

[Valetudo]

Assume for the sake of argument, that Melisandre burns Shireen in TWOW as part of a ritual to revive Jon.  I imagine that a big part of Jon's story would be how horribly conflicted he feels about it.  I think that would be interesting, and much more interesting than the Show's version.

Exactly. Such a big moment needs to be justified and have serious consequences. In this case, Shireen would burn in order to save the world's savior (at least in Mel's mind), and we can already imagine the consequences: what will Jon think of it? What about Stannis coming back and discovering that his daughter was killed? That can be an interesting development.

Even in the case that Stannis come back to the wall and is the one to burn her in order to stop the invasion/save the wall/whatever, it would make more sense that what was shown, even if in the end her sacrifice is useless.

In the show, she burns when Stannis isn't in such a terrible situation, just to melt some snow. Talk about a small reward for burning your daughter! And that's it: the plan failed, everybody is dead, and nobody will talk about it ever again. The most we can have is a scene between Davos and Mel. This scene brought nothing new to the main characters or the main plot.

If Stannis decided to charge before burning Shireen, the result would have been the same. The scene only exists for shock value.

But who are we kidding, that's how they work. Even such a big event as the Red Wedding was treated without any tought about the consequences. We'll just see some of them in the next season. That's two complete seasons where everybody forgot about it, but now they will remember just because they had some spare time with the move from 7 to 8 seasons.

[Chebyshov]

Sorry I haven't been posting here much lately--I keep waiting for the old content to be restored, but there doesn't seem to be much movement on that front? Have you guys heard any word?

Anywho, Julia and I just wrote our retrospective piece about Jon's plotline this year (well, The Wall plot...Sam included). We uh...maybe have been overzealous in places, but I think you'll very much appreciate the conclusion. And how fun that we uncovered new ways the plot was offensive:

Sam, at least, mentions the whole dragon-Targ thing in his eulogy. He also says that Aemon came to the Night’s Watch from “King’s Landing” but also the Citadel. Idk, he’s sad. As Aemon burns, Thorne randomly wanders over to Sam and says “you’re losing all your friends, Tarly.” Then the camera pans to these two RANDOS that we have never seen before, who are giving Sam the stink eye.

Oh, but wait, the next scene these two same guys come and attempt to rape Gilly. Holy shit, is this their way of sticking it to Sam? Like the bullshit “damaged property” trope? Because that’s sure as hell the implication, given that it’s the following fucking scene. Great, so just when we thought we could not be outraged enough at this RANDOM rape=drama scene, there’s even more reason to hate it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

STOP EVERYTHING.

 

 

[TepidHands]

STOP EVERYTHING.

 

 

OMG those costumes, even better than last season's! 

Oh yeah, and the red-headed guy.