Why the Reynes and Tarbecks deserved their fates.

[Ezko]

If Jon didn't approve we'd get some mention. Jon was probably thankful the Targs were dealt with and Robert didn't need to order it himself.

Tywin ordered the kids dead, they killed the kids the methods don't really matter and he'd be a fool to punish them if the king wasn't bothering.

Jon is described as honorable to a fault, similar to Ned. No way he was ok with what Gregor and Amory did to Elia and the kids.

The methods don't matter? Tell that to Oberyn

[Bobby b's bobby]

Jon is described as honorable to a fault, similar to Ned. No way he was ok with what Gregor and Amory did to Elia and the kids.

The methods don't matter? Tell that to Oberyn

If Jon wasn't okay with the Targs getting killed why don't we hear anything? He doesn't try and punish gregor, Amory or Tywin and in fact rewards him with a royal marriage.

Do you think if gregor and Amory had killed them with a single stab that Oberyn wouldn't have been all about revenge?

[Ezko]

If Jon wasn't okay with the Targs getting killed why don't we hear anything? He doesn't try and punish gregor, Amory or Tywin and in fact rewards him with a royal marriage.

Do you think if gregor and Amory had killed them with a single stab that Oberyn wouldn't have been all about revenge?

Jon was not the king. Just like Ned couldn't do anything, neither could Jon. He was dead when the story starts so how exactly would we hear his opinion on the matter? Who would tell us how he felt?

Considering the fact that Oberyn yelled "you raped her" about 50 times in his fight with Gregor, its safe to say the methods affected him quite a bit.

[Lady Sharya]

If Jon wasn't okay with the Targs getting killed why don't we hear anything? He doesn't try and punish gregor, Amory or Tywin and in fact rewards him with a royal marriage.
Do you think if gregor and Amory had killed them with a single stab that Oberyn wouldn't have been all about revenge?

C'mon dude, are you seriously suggesting it didn't matter how they were killed? This argument from the koala is typical, but not from you.;) There was no excuse for what Gregor and Lorch did and no excuse for them to get away with it. Robert & Jon were d*cks for letting it go, and Tywin was a monster for ordering it.

[Bobby b's bobby]

C'mon dude, are you seriously suggesting it didn't matter how they were killed? This argument from the koala is typical, but not from you.;) There was no excuse for what Gregor and Lorch did and no excuse for them to get away with it. Robert & Jon were d*cks for letting it go, and Tywin was a monster for ordering it.

I honestly don't think it mattes much whether you stab them 100 times or 1 time you still killed them and likely made an enemy for life in proper loyalists like the dornish. Though the rape really didn't help. Actually Robert had a few excuses for letting them go first they did him a favour a rather evil one but still a favour and 2 tywin has the full might of the west and you still have the Tyrells and dorne to deal with. Jon and Robert are dicks for letting it go but in their place I'd probably do the same and tywin well he's always been a bastard.

[Boarsbane]

Tywin orchestrated a mass murder, that's never justified.
That he purposely goaded the Reyne's and Tarbecks into rebellion (instead of working out a payment plan), and that he refused to accept Lord Reyne's surrender, makes it even less justified in my opinion.
If I was king, I would have invited Tywin to Kings landing under some pretense ... then I would have named Tywin a child murderer and had him beheaded.

Tytos is that you?

When someone pisses on you, you don't sit down with them and talk it out with them, you kick their asses and now people know you aren't to be pissed on. A payment plan LOL! Completely ignore the fact the Reynes and Tarbecks show no interest in paying anything back and frankly why would they when a pussy like Tytos is the one they are borrowing from.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Tytos is that you?

When someone pisses on you, you don't sit down with them and talk it out with them, you kick their asses and now people know you aren't to be pissed on. A payment plan LOL! Completely ignore the fact the Reynes and Tarbecks show no interest in paying anything back and frankly why would they when a pussy like Tytos is the one they are borrowing from.

I mean there was letters sent out saying pay your debts or bring a hostage and they said and I quote "lol, no" or the first time Tytos tried to deal with them they killed his father in law and a hundred men.

[Brannis the Mannis]

It was Tywin's best option. If he let the Reynes off with a slap on the wrist, they're not going to learn their lesson. 

 

If he enters the tunnels, he'll lose thousands of men in the process.

 

Flooding the tunnels was one of his smartest ideas.

[Darkstream]

thelittledragonthatcould@

You know, I'm really not sure of the point of your arguments in regard to the op. Admittedly, you've put forth some plausible reasons and excuses for Tywin's actions, although you haven't clearly stated your position on this. So I'll strait up ask you to avoid accusations of mis-quoting you. Is it your stance that the reasons you have put forth justify the extinction of an entire house (chidern, women, and elderly included) or/and the murder and rape of Elia and her children?

If so, I strongly disagree with your argument. I haven't seen a single thing in any of your responses, that in my view, justify these murders in the slightest. And I would find it difficult for you, or anyone else to present an argument that would convince me otherwise.

Honestly, I'm shocked that this topic has garnered so much discussion. I find it quite alarming that anyone would try to defend or justify Tywin's actions.

[Frey Pie]

 
Was anyone claiming that he would have? It likely would have happened regardless of Ned. He could have carried on feeling morally superior to everyone

You mean being morally superior. Whatever Ned's faults he did try to do what was right in his eyes. He would never have ordered or sanctioned the murder of children. Others who would (Robert, Tywin) are morally repugnant. So Ned would be justified by feeling morally superior

In any case I don't blame Tywin for this. They two houses were stupid, too prour. But the children was too far. I belive he should have had the males killed or exiled and had his brothers or loyal bannermen marry the most eligible heiress. That way he's assimilating the power into house Lannister instead of just ruining both houses and getting nothing from it but a rep for being ruthless

[thelittledragonthatcould]

thelittledragonthatcould@

You know, I'm really not sure of the point of your arguments in regard to the op. Admittedly, you've put forth some plausible reasons and excuses for Tywin's actions, although you haven't clearly stated your position on this. So I'll strait up ask you to avoid accusations of mis-quoting you. Is it your stance that the reasons you have put forth justify the extinction of an entire house (chidern, women, and elderly included) or/and the murder and rape of Elia and her children?

If so, I strongly disagree with your argument. I haven't seen a single thing in any of your responses, that in my view, justify these murders in the slightest. And I would find it difficult for you, or anyone else to present an argument that would convince me otherwise.

Honestly, I'm shocked that this topic has garnered so much discussion. I find it quite alarming that anyone would try to defend or justify Tywin's actions.

 

I'm not sure why there is such an obsession on this forum for being for or against something. That if you somehow don't pick a side then you can't engage in a discussion, or that everything is clear cut to be either right or wrong. There is a lot more context to add, if you just want yes or no answers then have a poll but if you want an actual discussion then don't limit the responses you find acceptable.

 

Octavius is perhaps my favourite person in history. He committed (well ordered) many reprehensible acts, that does not diminish my interest in him. I know the world he lived in shaped his actions just as a I accept the fictional characters in Westeros are shaped by the world they live in.

 

In the world Tywin lives in he can justify his actions. To myself and the reader they clearly are morally wrong however many of the characters in this series, just as the real people living in our own medieval ages, had higher priorities than living by our societies version of morality.

 

The Reynes and Tarbecks were aware of the possible ramifications of their actions just as the many extinct houses in the North and the rest of Westeros were aware of what rebelling against more powerful Houses will do. They poked the bear and the bear poked back.

[nyser1]

Let us please also remember the context of the society this took place in. The seven pointed star doesn't encourage mass murder, but this is not 21st-century Scandinavia.

[Cragen]

Women? he spared the tarbeck women and children. Ellyn Reyne deserved it the most. there were 300 people in the caves most were men. most were his remaining fighters. They weren't murdered, they were executed for treason. Roger Reyne committed treason, Walderan Tarbeck committed treason. Tell me if you were in tywin's place what would you do?

He could wait like max. 10 days, I don't think that they had much food in mines.

I don't understand why would Rains borrow gold from Lannister when they have second largest gold mine in Westeros.

[Darkstream]

I'm not sure why there is such an obsession on this forum for being for or against something. That if you somehow don't pick a side then you can't engage in a discussion, or that everything is clear cut to be either right or wrong. There is a lot more context to add, if you just want yes or no answers then have a poll but if you want an actual discussion then don't limit the responses you find acceptable.

Well, I wasn't implying that at all. It just seemed to me that you were putting forth an argument for one side while not really wanting to admit to that stance. I just wanted clarification, so as to not mis-interoperate your statements.

[Lady Sharya]

I honestly don't think it mattes much whether you stab them 100 times or 1 time you still killed them and likely made an enemy for life in proper loyalists like the dornish. Though the rape really didn't help. Actually Robert had a few excuses for letting them go first they did him a favour a rather evil one but still a favour and 2 tywin has the full might of the west and you still have the Tyrells and dorne to deal with. Jon and Robert are dicks for letting it go but in their place I'd probably do the same and tywin well he's always been a bastard.

Okay well, most loved ones of the recently departed take comfort in the knowledge (if applicable) that they didn't suffer. The Martell's didn't have this consolation and neither did Elie and her children.:(

I prefer to think of Robert's reine as karma bittin' him in the arse.:) Tywin, Gregor & Lorch got off scott free.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He could wait like max. 10 days, I don't think that they had much food in mines.

They had plenty of food.

 

Once all his folk were safe inside the tunnels, Ser Reynard sent word to Ser Tywin above, offering terms.  “You cannot fight your way in, and we have food and water sufficient for three years,” he wrote, “but grant us full pardon for any past offenses, and send your brothers down to us as hostages against deceit, and we shall once again be your true and leal servants.”

 

The longer Tywin waits the weaker his House looks, especially if he returns home with his tail behind his legs. Think of what Cat said to Robb

 

"I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. The day will come when you need them to respect you, even fear you a little."

 

Consider that the Reynes would have their own marriage alliances, potential allies who would join them against the Lannisters. Given enough time, with Tywins supporters abandoning him as he is impotent to punish the Reynes the shoe would be on the other foot. Especially with Tytos in charge.
 

[Abdallah]

He could wait like max. 10 days, I don't think that they had much food in mines.

I don't understand why would Rains borrow gold from Lannister when they have second largest gold mine in Westeros.

It was mostly the Tarbecks, but i mean with Tytos it was basically free gold. 

[Lady Sharya]

It just seemed to me that you were putting forth an argument for one side while not really wanting to admit to that stance. I just wanted clarification, so as to not mis-interoperate your statements.

He just likes to argue as evidenced by the quote below. He takes a black & white adviserial position to draw the moth to his flame.:lol:

"That if you somehow don't pick a side then you can't engage in a discussion, or that everything is clear cut to be either right or wrong."

[Bobby b's bobby]

Okay well, most loved ones of the recently departed take comfort in the knowledge (if applicable) that they didn't suffer. The Martell's didn't have this consolation and neither did Elie and her children.:(

I prefer to think of Robert's reine as karma bittin' him in the arse.:) Tywin, Gregor & Lorch got off scott free.

I think Robert's reign was the result of a drunken man whore and an ambitious family willing to do some questionable stuff especially in the bedroom.

[Lord Wraith]

 

I'm not sure why there is such an obsession on this forum for being for or against something. That if you somehow don't pick a side then you can't engage in a discussion, or that everything is clear cut to be either right or wrong. There is a lot more context to add, if you just want yes or no answers then have a poll but if you want an actual discussion then don't limit the responses you find acceptable.

 

Octavius is perhaps my favourite person in history. He committed (well ordered) many reprehensible acts, that does not diminish my interest in him. I know the world he lived in shaped his actions just as a I accept the fictional characters in Westeros are shaped by the world they live in.

 

In the world Tywin lives in he can justify his actions. To myself and the reader they clearly are morally wrong however many of the characters in this series, just as the real people living in our own medieval ages, had higher priorities than living by our societies version of morality.

 

The Reynes and Tarbecks were aware of the possible ramifications of their actions just as the many extinct houses in the North and the rest of Westeros were aware of what rebelling against more powerful Houses will do. They poked the bear and the bear poked back.

 

:agree: