Wise Man's Fear XI

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Continue. Need a place to post questions before old thread is locked.

[Thunndarr]

Just wanted to chime in a response on the last comment in the previous thread w/r/t Kvothe being an unreliable narrator. While that certainly is possible, I can see no reason Rothfuss would do this. I mean, and maybe I haven't thought it through enough, but doesn't that undermine one of the overall themes of the book? How legends become stretched and distorted from the original events they are based on? And Rothfuss is going to illustrate this by having Kvothe tell his "true" version which contains little-to-zero veracity?

 

I know some people are convinced that Kvothe is an unreliable narrator, I just can't fathom why that wouldn't just completely depart from one of the central facets of the book.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I was just thinking it was an inevitable turn we'll come to see at some point. Mind you I'm only on the first book, but, I'd bet there are some discrepancies in his story. I could be wrong, just what I expect.

[all swedes are racist]

An unreliable narrator doesn't necessarily equate "little-to-no" veracity... Almost the opposite usually. An unreliable narrators stories are most often colored by slight and subtle mis-truths or exaggerated recollections, forcing the reader to at least carefully and critically examine the text, or even reflect and examine their own held prejudices and biases.

[allenczhang]

Reading the previous topic. People seem to be hating on Kvothe a lot. I disagree.

Howdyphillip repeatedly claims that Kvothe poisons the bandits before he knew for sure they were impersonating troopers. But he did have solid proof.

 

He tipped an imaginary hat. “Thank you. We were lucky enough to nick it on our way through Levinshir a couple days ago. How has the road been treating you of late?”

The false troupers stole ale. Edema Ruh do not steal. This is one of the reasons why Kvothe knew they were impersonating real Edema Ruh.

“You thought you could fool me?” I said, feeling my anger coiling inside me again like a spring. “This is my family! How could I not know? Ruh don’t do what you did. Ruh don’t steal, don’t kidnap girls.”

 

I'm not sure how people see Kvothe as a bad character. He kills those who deserve it. He steals from those who can afford/deserve to be stolen from, and gives to those who need. He lies, but everyone lies. These features don't make him a good character, but hardly make him the villian several people seem to think he is.  Kvothe ignores rules. Pat repeatedly compares Kvothe to the Amyr. He believes himself above the rules and does what he thinks is right. He gets things done, always for the greater good.

And claiming that he is an unreliable narrator who paints himself in a better light is an extremely weak argument. Of course he is a somewhat unreliable narrator. But he's told the Chronicler that this is his chance to get his story out - the true version. He repeatedly emphasizes his faults (thoughtlessness), he points out that he sucks at math, alchemy, etc, and he refuses to make excuses for the things he's done in the past (the way he dealt with Denna's song, don't blame Abenthy for teaching me, etc). These are things that he would gloss over if he was truly trying to "toot his horn". 

[C.T. Phipps]

Kvothe is an unreliable narrator, IMHO, but I think people assume that means he's lying deliberately.

I think he's 100% telling the truth AS HE SEES IT.

It's just Kvothe is a self-absorbed vainglorious idjit with almost no ability to read people.

Hence why he thinks all the women are beautiful, flirting with him, and that Denna is actually some deep tortured romantic soul than a cynical con woman.

[Proudfeet]

 

The false troupers stole ale. Edema Ruh do not steal. This is one of the reasons why Kvothe knew they were impersonating real Edema Ruh.

 

I'm not sure how people see Kvothe as a bad character. He kills those who deserve it. He steals from those who can afford/deserve to be stolen from, and gives to those who need. He lies, but everyone lies. These features don't make him a good character, but hardly make him the villian several people seem to think he is.  Kvothe ignores rules. Pat repeatedly compares Kvothe to the Amyr. He believes himself above the rules and does what he thinks is right. He gets things done, always for the greater good.

Is Kvothe not Edema Ruh now? News to me. 

Kvothe may not be a villian, but he was a bullying asshole at the very least. Also, I think you need to check your sense of morality. Deserve to be stolen from. He gets things done, always for the greater good. Really? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Proudfeet,

Exactly.  If "Edema Ruh do not steal" Kvothe, by that definition cannot be  Edema Ruh.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think it's part of the fun of the novels Kvothe is CLEARLY trying to give what he thinks is the unvarnished truth about himself but is blind to his biases and prejudices.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

C.T.,

It's almost as much fun as people who want to claim Kvothe is the knight in shining armor and that all of his actions have been wonderful and good.  That his penchant for dark and nasty is really our misperception of his actions.  I also like the "Kvothe never lies" despite the fact that his own narrative contradicts itself.  

A question for the Kvothe defenders, is Kvothe Edema Ruh if his own standard is applied?  After all he says "Edema don't steal" not, "Edema only steal from bad people or people who can afford to deal with our thieving".  

 

[C.T. Phipps]

C.T.,

It's almost as much fun as people who want to claim Kvothe is the knight in shining armor and that all of his actions have been wonderful and good.  That his penchant for dark and nasty is really our misperception of his actions.  I also like the "Kvothe never lies" despite the fact that his own narrative contradicts itself.  

A question for the Kvothe defenders, is Kvothe Edema Ruh if his own standard is applied?  After all he says "Edema don't steal" not, "Edema only steal from bad people or people who can afford to deal with our thieving".  

I think Kvothe is certainly a person who considers himself Edema Ruh given he shouts it from the highest. Also, I imagine he's probably correct that his people don't steal any more than anyone else.

Likewise, he learned his thieving skills elsewhere than from his people.

But his absolutism on the subject is overcompensating.

I do think, by and large, Kvothe is a pretty noble hero but his flaws get him into a lot more trouble than he's prepared to admit--except, of course, we know he DOES eventually admit it as he becomes a self-hating innkeeper over it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CT,

I think he wants to be "Prince Gallant".  That's probably true of many "antagonists".  I really suspect this may be the "hero's tale" from the flip side of the coin.

[C.T. Phipps]

CT,

I think he wants to be "Prince Gallant".  That's probably true of many "antagonists".  I really suspect this may be the "hero's tale" from the flip side of the coin.

I've heard that theory and strong disagree, honestly. I don't see any likelihood Kvothe is going to become a villain other than we know he becomes a Kingkiller and it's very likely we know which king he's going to kill too.

Likewise, he's not viewed as a villain by the majority of the populace anyway.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CT,

Well, consider this perhaps the point is to show that "villian" or "hero" depends on the point of view of the teller and hearer of the story.  That's what happend with the Lanre story.  Perhaps that is also happening with Kvothe's story.

[C.T. Phipps]

CT,

Well, consider this perhaps the point is to show that "villian" or "hero" depends on the point of view of the teller and hearer of the story.  That's what happend with the Lanre story.  Perhaps that is also happening with Kvothe's story.

The thing is, the only person who considers himself a villain in all this is possibly Kvothe himself.

And everything points to Kvothe's guilt being misplaced.

I may be wrong but I think the story will simply go to show Kvothe trying to do good and wrecking everything.

Probably because he kills Ambrose and tries to follow the "Anything goes in the name of good" philosophy of that order I'm blanking on the name of.

[Proudfeet]

The thing is, the only person who considers himself a villain in all this is possibly Kvothe himself.

And everything points to Kvothe's guilt being misplaced.

I may be wrong but I think the story will simply go to show Kvothe trying to do good and wrecking everything.

Probably because he kills Ambrose and tries to follow the "Anything goes in the name of good" philosophy of that order I'm blanking on the name of.

Its a matter of perspective. The same could be said of both Lanre and Selitos which was what Scot was pointing to. And Chronicler mentioned Kvothe was touted as a new Chandrian, although that could have just been to goad him.

Poor Alveron, his death seems almost assured. He is several spots ahead of Ambrose in succession after all. The only way he survives is if he is the Penitent King and/or Kvothe kills Modegan/Arturian/Cealdish royalty who may not even exist.

[C.T. Phipps]

Yeah, like Martin, Rothfuss is very good at laying little seeds for the reader to follow.

Also, it's annoying as heck we must wait for resolution.

*growl*

*pitchfork wave*

[Proudfeet]

Yeah, like Martin, Rothfuss is very good at laying little seeds for the reader to follow.

Also, it's annoying as heck we must wait for resolution.

*growl*

*pitchfork wave*

I strongly suspect that the resolution will not be entirely satisfactory. To put it in Middle Earth terms, its more Lay of Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin, Fall of Gondolin and other individual parts of the Simarillion than Lord of the Rings. The best we can hope for is that there are no Tom Bombadil like enigmas and I'm not optimistic on that front either.

[C.T. Phipps]

I confess, I think it'd be better if Rothfuss just had Kvothe fail to finish it in three days and do a fourth book.

But I understand why he wouldn't want that.

[Proudfeet]

I confess, I think it'd be better if Rothfuss just had Kvothe fail to finish it in three days and do a fourth book.

But I understand why he wouldn't want that.

Shrug. Assuming Kvothe follows Chronicler to meet Skarpi to finish his account for however many days (and books), his story still ends when he becomes Kote the innkeeper. Unless he has a trick to wraps up all the Scrael and Chandrian in a short time frame, there won't be an "age" ending event. 

Rothfuss could start another series on Kvothe the rejuvenated or Bast the hero or anything else in Temerant for a continuation. He has planned short stories on some other characters. @thistlepong  would probably know the specifics but he doesn't hang around here anymore and I'm too lazy to do a search.