Can one REALLY be celibate?

[Malik Ambar]

As a student I thought I'd die a virgin.

Then came University. Ohh boy...

[Lily Valley]

Please calm down!  Yes, women do have a marked tendency to be more sexually reserved than men.  Not only is this a pattern that is observed in all societies, but it is a pattern for which evolutionary biologists have no difficulty coming up with perfectly plausible explanations for.

Did you just tell Terra to calm down?  

You're a little late to be pulling evo-psych out of the bullshit hat.

[Theda Baratheon]

Please calm down!  Yes, women do have a marked tendency to be more sexually reserved than men.  Not only is this a pattern that is observed in all societies, but it is a pattern for which evolutionary biologists have no difficulty coming up with perfectly plausible explanations for.

Lol. Ancient Greeks would have said it was the other way round. Women were insatiable and sexual deviants, temptresses and whores and men were stoic, and cold and morally virtuous in avoiding the temptations of these sexually crazed women hahah - funny how these narratives change. Same with a lot of Ancient Cultures - not a universal pattern after all then...

[ChillyPolly]

Lol. Ancient Greeks would have said it was the other way round. Women were insatiable and sexual deviants, temptresses and whores and men were stoic, and cold and morally virtuous in avoiding the temptations of these sexually crazed women hahah - funny how these narratives change. Same with a lot of Ancient Cultures - not a universal pattern after all then...

LOL.  It is indeed funny how narratives change.  In the old days, the Ancient Greeks were not mouthpieces for the opinions of Theda Baratheon.  Now, they are.

Good luck finding a quote that supports what you just spouted in any context that suggests a belief that sexual desire is generally stronger in women than in men.

Oh, but did you mention "whores"?  Most prostitutes are women.  Most customers of prostitutes are men.  One of the two is motivated by money. There are reasons for that, and one of them might have something to do with supply and demand.  There are some male prostitutes, though.  And the vast majority of the customers of male prostitutes are men.  

Also the moral opprobium heaped on women for being "temptresses" is consistent with an ancient attitude that men are indeed more vulnerable to sexual desire than women.  The accusation not only assumes that women can control themselves, but that they ought to help men control themselves as well by not "tempting" them.  As Kant would say, "ought implies can".  I don't need to defend all these ancient attitudes, which are often quite misogynistic, but they do not tend to support your position.

[Theda Baratheon]

What? Lol. I don't HAVE a position on this topic. I don't know if there really IS much of a difference between men and women and their sexualities - am just saying it wasn't universal over ALL societies like you said. 

[ChillyPolly]

What? Lol. I don't HAVE a position on this topic. I don't know if there really IS much of a difference between men and women and their sexualities - am just saying it wasn't universal over ALL societies like you said. 

And I think you're wrong when you claim it "wasn't universal over all societies".  It's funny how you have to go back to the poorly documented ancient days to find an example of a culture that you think supports your position.  And you have ignored my challenge of a quote or an example.

The Greek historian Herodotus remarked that the Lydians have a strong shame of nakedness, so much true that this was the case not only of the women, but also of the men.  This remark strongly implies that Herodotus thinks that such "modesty" or sexual reserve is more normal for women than it is for men.  The Greek comedic play Lysistrata portrays women who are horny and have difficulty controlling their sexual urges.  But they still win the sex strike against the men.

[BloodRider]

Human's mating rituals have long since escaped the constraints of biological reality that impacts on animals, because we have things like culture, laws, and free will.

Well - not so sure about the last one.  But in general, yes, we are not slaves to out biology.

[Theda Baratheon]

And I think you're wrong.  It's funny how you have to go back to the poorly documented ancient days to find an example of a culture that you think supports your position.  And you have ignored my challenge of a quote or an example.

The Greek historian Herodotus remarked that the Lydians have a strong shame of nakedness, so much true that this was the case not only of the women, but also of the men.  This remark strongly implies that Herodotus thinks that such "modesty" or sexual reserve is more normal for women than it is for men.  The Greek comedic play Lysistrata portrays women who are horny and have difficulty controlling their sexual urges.  But they still win the sex strike against the men.

I am on phone with limited internet and I don't really care about proving myself correct to you lol - I have an Ancient History degree  I think I probably know the topic of ancient greece a little better than you. Maybe another day when on computer I can shuffle up some good quotes and sources but not right this moment. 

[ChillyPolly]

I am on phone with limited internet and I don't really care about proving myself correct to you lol - I have an Ancient History degree  I think I probably know the topic of ancient greece a little better than you. Maybe another day when on computer I can shuffle up some good quotes and sources but not right this moment. 

Reply whenever you like.  In the meantime, self-bolstering praises add nothing to the discussion.

[Theda Baratheon]

Reply whenever you like.  In the meantime, self-bolstering praises add nothing to the discussion.

It isn't really self bolstering praise to say I have a degree in a subject. It's just fact. Plenty of other things I have no idea about. 

[ChillyPolly]

It isn't really self bolstering praise to say I have a degree in a subject. It's just fact.

It is also a fact that I am an eclectus parrot.  You are an anonymous person on the internet.  Degree or no degree, you can demonstrate your case by arguing the facts.  You can demonstrate your knowledge of ancient sources by referring to them. But you say you don't care about this subject enough to discuss it.  And that's fine too.

[Lily Valley]

LOL.  It is indeed funny how narratives change.  In the old days, the Ancient Greeks were not mouthpieces for the opinions of Theda Baratheon.  Now, they are.

Good luck finding a quote that supports what you just spouted in any context that suggests a belief that sexual desire is generally stronger in women than in men.

Oh, but did you mention "whores"?  Most prostitutes are women.  Most customers of prostitutes are men.  One of the two is motivated by money. There are reasons for that, and one of them might have something to do with supply and demand.  There are some male prostitutes, though.  And the vast majority of the customers of male prostitutes are men.  

Also the moral opprobium heaped on women for being "temptresses" is consistent with an ancient attitude that men are indeed more vulnerable to sexual desire than women.  The accusation not only assumes that women can control themselves, but that they ought to help men control themselves as well by not "tempting" them.  As Kant would say, "ought implies can".  I don't need to defend all these ancient attitudes, which are often quite misogynistic, but they do not tend to support your position.

Are we doing this again?  Really?  If you want to spout evo-psych nonsense, then I suggest you read recent "research" which suggests that primate females are slow to orgasm and use vocalization because primate females are accustomed to group mating where males get in line and wait their turn.  

The problem with your analysis is that it comes through a lens of modern sexist western thinking.  It comes from a long history of considering women to be property.  It also comes from some pretty silly preconceptions.

You say that "Yes, women do have a marked tendency to be more sexually reserved than men.  Not only is this a pattern that is observed in all societies, but it is a pattern for which evolutionary biologists have no difficulty coming up with perfectly plausible explanations for."  

Show me the biological reasons that women are more reticent about asking for sex in a straightforward manner vs. the societal pressure to act like controlled sexual property.  Please.  Show me these research papers that were done by biologists.

You say, "Oh, but did you mention "whores"?  Most prostitutes are women.  Most customers of prostitutes are men.  One of the two is motivated by money. There are reasons for that, and one of them might have something to do with supply and demand.  There are some male prostitutes, though.  And the vast majority of the customers of male prostitutes are men."

What you don't address is that most people selling sex are by all definitions of the word attractive.  You do NOT address the idea that women have thousands of years of training with a big stick behind it not to solicit sex.  There is societal disapproval at the least and physical violence or death to break these taboos.  Men have had no such training.  Many men who solicit prostitutes want more variety and more attractive sex partners.  There's machinery in place to make sure there's a market where they can ask for this.  Boiling this down to "because penis" is beyond stupid and simplistic.  Do some homework.

Finally, men always whine about how "If a woman asks for sex, they can just get it."  The problem is that they picture Mila Jovovich walking into a bar like this:

http://imgur.com/9OXY61r

Whispering "Please please come home with me!"

In fact there are lots of women who look like this:

http://imgur.com/gallery/g3O61EB/new

Who are rejected constantly.  

Where are most of the men that you've talked to about sexual rejection to on the attractiveness scale?  I'll bet they're a lot closer to a 2 than the 7 that they think they are.  When you throw in sleazy pick-up tactics (unattractive), desperation (unattractive), misogynistic condescension (unattractive) and a lousy set of bedroom skills (unattractive) their success rate is probably abysmal.  To whine that this is because men want more sex than women is absolutely ridiculous.  

On that last point.  Many people in relationships have partners with disproportionate libidos. . However, if you ALWAYS find yourself needing to pay for sexual companionship and none of your sex partners want to sleep with you very often, then you may need to check YOURSELF. 

[Lily Valley]

dp

[Lyanna Stark]

It is also a fact that I am an eclectus parrot.  You are an anonymous person on the internet.  Degree or no degree, you can demonstrate your case by arguing the facts.  You can demonstrate your knowledge of ancient sources by referring to them. But you say you don't care about this subject enough to discuss it.  And that's fine too.

Right, so you are just a random person on the internet, but apparently YOUR view does not need backing up, but Theda's does? 

Oh and PS: yes, she DOES have a degree. It's real. Deal. With. It.

I for one and looking forward to when you get to eat your words on this particular subject and I will be bringing popcorn.

 

Now, as for my personal comments on this, completely removed from anything Theda would say, you are wrong, and here's why.

You are basing your entire reasoning on sources influenced by a culture in which female sexuality was either considered non-existent, harmful or capable of influencing men negatively. It hardly takes a NASA scientist to figure out that this will also impact how women view and express their own sexuality. In other words: you are not looking at the dataset from an unbiased viewpoint. Our history is not a naturally neutral existence. To treat it as such is to be wilfully blinkered.

Or, what LilyValley already pointed out.

 

So, how about YOU argue your knowledge by, as you yourself put it, arguing the facts.