Why are Jon and Robb so similar?

[forod]

It sounds weird, they are supposedly half brothers after all and grew up together as best friends, but their storylines are remarkably similar, to the extent it appears that GRRM seems to be coupling them together for some purpose.

 

The theory that Jon is special and will be resurrected is a popular one among book readers and, unlike most theories, has a great amount of literary evidence to support it. And much of the evidence for this could also relate to Robb, due to the similarities his and Jon's storylines share. So let's explore some of these and see if GRRM is trying to tell us something. 

 

The first major thing that Robb does is raise his banners, go to war, and shortly after be crowned as the King In The North. He also happens to be the first King In The North since Aegon's conquest, about 300 years before this. However, unlike any King In The North before him, Robb marches south in order to try and gain southern lords and lands. So to summarise this point, Robb obtains an old title but reinvents it. 

 

Jon essentially does the same thing. 

 

His performance as Lord Commander is different to any of the 997 that came before him, as he becomes the first to ally with the Wildlings, even allowing them to settle on land belonging to the Nights Watch. 

 

This element of both characters story arcs is incredibly similar, as is the end result of both. Due to dissatisfaction within the ranks, both are betrayed by their own men, and stabbed to death when they don't expect it. 

 

So the major points of both characters, and the nature of their deaths is very similar. But what about the nature of their lives?

 

Well another striking similarity is the fact that they both forsake sacred vows for love, which, in both cases, catalyses their own men's distrust of them, and attributes to their deaths. 

 

As well as this, both characters have a deep, intimate relationship with their direwolves, and we know, thanks to the books and GRRM, that they are both wargs. Jon is described as a powerful skinchanger by Varamyr, and the same is probably true of Robb, although we can't be sure as we never get any POV Robb chapters. 

 

They are also both mentioned in Dany's visions in the House Of The Undying. She sees Robb at the Red Wedding, and is shown a "blue flower" growing from "a wall of ice". This is widely acknowledged to be Jon, and it is odd that both characters would be shown to Dany in visions when the only other people she sees are direct relatives of hers, her unborn son, and Stannis, oddly. 

 

Her potential links with Jon are obvious due to the implications of several of the most popular fan theories, such as R+L=J. But the vision of the Red Wedding is very odd, as it has nothing to do with Dany. Regardless, it still creates another similarity between Jon and Robb. 

 

The most important similarity in my mind is the last word of each character. They both name their direwolves with their dying breath, implying that they both warg in to them as they are killed. However, as Grey Wind is then killed as well, it ends any possibility of Robb being resurrected in the way the fan base expect Jon to be. 

 

In conclusion, I'm not really sure why GRRM makes both characters so similar, but they are possibly more similar than any other two characters in the entire series. 

 

 

[Robb_Warged]

There are notable comparisons but I think there are even more differences.  One has the strongest plot armor in the series.  One was sacrificed for a trillion other characters to benefit from story-wise.  One was always engaging.  The other was boring till the end of the third book.  One is popular and social.  The other is brooding and reclusive. 

 

One is a main character.  The other is a supporting character

 

Both are natural leaders though.  It's not by chance Jon became LC at such a young age

 

I definitely agree that their deaths parallel each other

[CJ McLannister]

I think the lesson here is that Jon should avoid attending any weddings.

[RoamingRonin]

That Stark blood and upbringing.

[Bobby b's bobby]

I think the lesson here is that Jon should avoid attending any weddings.

Except his own and it better be to the person who he promised.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Oh, GRRM loves doing "compare and contrast" between two characters parallel in some way. They could be siblings (many pairings), friends (Bob and Ned), rivals (Bob and Ray-ray), pretenders for the same seat (Dany and Stannis; yes, I just used those two words, let's see how long will it take before the thread collapses in flames)... And Robb and Jon. Inevitable comparisons between those two aren't an unique thing, it's borderline standard.

 

One tangent remark, by the way, re: Jon being resurrected. Hold your horse, ser, for that to happen there's one absolutely essential prerequisite: first, Jon must draw his terminal breath. That did not, in fact, happen, at least not yet.

[Brannis the Mannis]

Oh, GRRM loves doing "compare and contrast" between two characters parallel in some way. They could be siblings (many pairings), friends (Bob and Ned), rivals (Bob and Ray-ray), pretenders for the same seat (Dany and Stannis; yes, I just used those two words, let's see how long will it take before the thread collapses in flames)... And Robb and Jon. Inevitable comparisons between those two aren't an unique thing, it's borderline standard.

 

One tangent remark, by the way, re: Jon being resurrected. Hold your horse, ser, for that to happen there's one absolutely essential prerequisite: first, Jon must draw his terminal breath. That did not, in fact, happen, at least not yet.

 

How would he survive half a dozen people stabbing him?

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
How would he survive half a dozen people stabbing him?

1 cut and 3 actual stab wound not overly strange to think he lived.

[Robb_Warged]

1 cut and 3 actual stab wound not overly strange to think he lived.

Also:

 

- He's Jon Snow

- This is a fantasy novel.  Being stabbed doesn't close the door on life like being beheaded does (Ned, Robb, Oberyn's crushed head)

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I don't think they are that similar really.

 

For starters, Robb barely makes an appearence in ASOIAF in the grand scheme of things. I doubt speaks more than ten sentences in ASOS.

 

Robb is far more confident in himself. Being the eldest son of Eddard Stark, and Lord of the North can do that to a person.

 

Jon seems much more reflective and moody. He seems much more calculated and the person who "thinks things through."

 

They seem to value the same importatn things (Honor, duty, friendship, integrity)

 

But there are important differences as well.

[Greymoon]

There are notable comparisons but I think there are even more differences.  One has the strongest plot armor in the series.  One was sacrificed for a trillion other characters to benefit from story-wise.  One was always engaging.  The other was boring till the end of the third book.  One is popular and social.  The other is brooding and reclusive. 

 

One is a main character.  The other is a supporting character

 

Both are natural leaders though.  It's not by chance Jon became LC at such a young age

 

I definitely agree that their deaths parallel each other

 

People keep saying that about Jon and I honestly don't see it. Every character has so called "plot armor".

 

Tyrion is a superhero who somehow survives two trials by combat and being thrown in the midst of battle even though his smaller than most soldiers in westeros. He never has difficult choices to make. He gets a beautiful, high born wife. He's saved out of Kingslanding because Jaime cared. Then he spends his time getting drunk and still manages to survive. He could have been dumped on the streets, he wouldn't have cared but instead of being dumped on the streets he becomes a guest to a rich merchant and drinks some more. Tyrion did not work at his own survival. Other people did that for him...(Jaime, Varys, Illyrio, JonCon)... he gets sold in a slave auction and lands outside the gates of Meereen, the very place he wanted to reach...he doesn't get greyscale. Doesn't get the bloody flux. And still, some readers want him to ride a dragon... talk about plot armor.

 

Dany walked into a pyre and survived, then she got three dragons and conquered slavers bay. She survived the red waste, even though she'd had a miscarriage shortly before that. She sends out riders with no idea where she is and finds Qarth. She becomes a guest of honor in Qarth and remains a guest even when she refuses to marry her host. And she survives again the house of the undying where she got  to hear prophecies and see glimpses of the future and past. And before that, she was a scared little girl who could have died, be captured, or raped a hundred times from the moment Drogo showed weakness.

 

Arya was thrown from one situation to the other, always finding a sort protector or road companion, always surviving through all hardships thrown at her. Sansa did too. Robb had a spectacular rise to power, from 15 year old heir to King in the north. His lack of experience did not stop him from winning battles against the Lannisters! Jaime is an experienced knight, and Tywin Lannister an experienced master mind. Yet Robb Stark defeated them on the field? His strategic genius could be considered plot armor, too.

 

All characters have "plot armor". It's not so much "plot armor" as simply, "plot" though. Talking about plot armor when speaking about Jon, is, imo, too much, too soon. Some see his "resurrection" as plot armor.... only, well... That hasn't happened yet! and may never happen in the way most of us imagine.

[falcotron]

I think the similarities are intentional, and are meant to highlight the contrasts. As Ferocious Veldt Reader pointed out, this is far from the only such example in the books.

Meanwhile, a few nits:

Well another striking similarity is the fact that they both forsake sacred vows for love, which, in both cases, catalyses their own men's distrust of them, and attributes to their deaths.

Robb does not forsake a sacred vow, he just breaks a contract negotiated by his mother. He doesn't do it for love, but because he's too honorable to rationalize away taking Jeyne's virginity in a moment of weakness. And it doesn't catalyze his men's distrust of him, except of course for Walder Frey's. And meanwhile, it's a direct cause of his death, but Jon's love is only a minor factor in setting up his death. This is only a striking similarity if you've already decided they're similar and go out of your way looking for examples; looked at objectively, it's actually a pretty big difference between them.

(You could ask whether the TV show changing Robb's story to a love affair with Talisa, and making Jon's love for Ygritte more open rather than something he wastes a lot of time trying to deny, has an interesting purpose, or is just D&D not getting one of GRRM's themes... but that would be a question for the show forums, I think.)

As well as this, both characters have a deep, intimate relationship with their direwolves, and we know, thanks to the books and GRRM, that they are both wargs. Jon is described as a powerful skinchanger by Varamyr, and the same is probably true of Robb, although we can't be sure as we never get any POV Robb chapters.

But Bran is certainly an even stronger skinchanger than Robb, and probably Arya is as well. So this is hardly something special about Robb among the Starks.

Finally:

The most important similarity in my mind is the last word of each character. They both name their direwolves with their dying breath, implying that they both warg in to them as they are killed. However, as Grey Wind is then killed as well, it ends any possibility of Robb being resurrected in the way the fan base expect Jon to be.

That's a perfect example of a huge similarity--and also a great example of using a huge similarity to highlight an interesting contrast, as Ferocious Veldt Roarer says. Assuming the fan theory turns out to be true, Jon's survival in Ghost will remind every reader (not just the fanatics on this forum who are already predicting it) of Robb's death and lack of survival due to Grey Wind's death. So, what does that tell us?

Most obviously, it points out how important the direwolves are to the Starks, which gives us hints about Jon's story to come (and maybe Sansa's?), and ties in to Arya's story about the pack, and so on.

But it also highlights the biggest thematic difference between the two characters. Robb changed his goal repeatedly (not that it's his fault--once Ned died, a war to rescue Ned doesn't make much sense...). For Jon, on the other hand, his story is all about making mistakes but then reaffirming ever more strongly his goal of standing on the edge of the world to shield the realms of men. He may lose everything of value (his family, Ygritte, the Watch, even his human body), but that goal is more important than him, so he must survive to fight on. (An uncharitable reader could argue that this is a lot like Illuvatar's reason for not letting Gandalf stay dead, something GRRM implied that he didn't want in his series... But I think it's clearly different enough that that's neither a mistake nor a lie on GRRM's part.)

[Robb_Warged]

 

People keep saying that about Jon and I honestly don't see it. Every character has so called "plot armor".

 

Tyrion is a superhero who somehow survives two trials by combat and being thrown in the midst of battle even though his smaller than most soldiers in westeros. He never has difficult choices to make. He gets a beautiful, high born wife. He's saved out of Kingslanding because Jaime cared. Then he spends his time getting drunk and still manages to survive. He could have been dumped on the streets, he wouldn't have cared but instead of being dumped on the streets he becomes a guest to a rich merchant and drinks some more. Tyrion did not work at his own survival. Other people did that for him...(Jaime, Varys, Illyrio, JonCon)... he gets sold in a slave auction and lands outside the gates of Meereen, the very place he wanted to reach...he doesn't get greyscale. Doesn't get the bloody flux. And still, some readers want him to ride a dragon... talk about plot armor.

 

Dany walked into a pyre and survived, then she got three dragons and conquered slavers bay. She survived the red waste, even though she'd had a miscarriage shortly before that. She sends out riders with no idea where she is and finds Qarth. She becomes a guest of honor in Qarth and remains a guest even when she refuses to marry her host. And she survives again the house of the undying where she got  to hear prophecies and see glimpses of the future and past. And before that, she was a scared little girl who could have died, be captured, or raped a hundred times from the moment Drogo showed weakness.

 

Arya was thrown from one situation to the other, always finding a sort protector or road companion, always surviving through all hardships thrown at her. Sansa did too. Robb had a spectacular rise to power, from 15 year old heir to King in the north. His lack of experience did not stop him from winning battles against the Lannisters! Jaime is an experienced knight, and Tywin Lannister an experienced master mind. Yet Robb Stark defeated them on the field? His strategic genius could be considered plot armor, too.

 

All characters have "plot armor". It's not so much "plot armor" as simply, "plot" though. Talking about plot armor when speaking about Jon, is, imo, too much, too soon. Some see his "resurrection" as plot armor.... only, well... That hasn't happened yet! and may never happen in the way most of us imagine.

Even when dying he isn't dead.  How can you not see it?  He gets out of every sticky situation he is in and with each book becomes more central to the story and receives more ability to affect what's going on.  There is no way ADWD's ending leaves Jon Snow dead and that's it for him; he isn't in TWOW, he isn't in ADOS.

 

He gets out of every problem he gets into.  Not even death defeats him.  Jon Snow has the best plot armor in the series.  He's a main character and one of (if not the) key hero in the story so it's expected but how can you not see this?

[falcotron]

They seem to value the same importatn things (Honor, duty, friendship, integrity)
 
But there are important differences as well.

Thanks for that; something I wanted to mention, but forgot to...

For both of these characters, and also for Ned, these values often get in the way of accomplishing their goals, and how they deal with that fact is central to their story.

Robb never got a chance to figure that out until it was too late, and went to his death believing that sticking to his honor was always the answer.

Ned, on the other hand, after a life spent devoted to honor, was brought down trying to compromise it. He could have gone with Renly's plan, or maybe Littlefinger's,¹ but instead, he tried to come up with something not quite as dishonorable. So, he spent his last free night agonizing over the fact that he'd decided to lie about the truth and bribe the guards in order to pull off a coup, only to fail miserably at it, so his sacrifice was for nothing. And then, to rub salt in the wounds, he sacrificed his honor again to save his daughters, and that didn't work out either.

Jon, on the other hand, has lived through multiple crises, he's had Stannis ridicule him to his face for sticking to his honor, and he's had Aemon giving him advice that he's still figuring out how to internalize. Unlike Ned and Robb, he's getting a chance to learn from his mistakes. Where will that lead him? My guess is to a fascinating moral dilemma that stands as one of turning points of the entire series. His story then becomes the synthesis of Ned's failed naive compromise and Robb's refusal to compromise. Which wouldn't work without the similarities between the three to tie their stories together.

¹ You can argue about whether Littlefinger's offer was sincere, and what he would have done if Ned had said yes. Honestly, I think Littlefinger might have seen the value in having Ned to stand behind--it's hard to find someone so easy to manipulate, but resistant to manipulation by rivals like Cersei, or to find a figurehead more beyond reproach... But anyway, that's not the point; Ned seemed to think it was a real offer, and he refused it because it was too dishonorable, not because he didn't think it would work.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

How would he survive half a dozen people stabbing him?

Here you go:

 

1. Bran - Game
Ser Jaime throws him of a tower. Dead by impact.

2.  Arya - Game
Yoren goes for her face with a blade, she fights him unsuccessfully. A cut throat, dead. Her last chapter in the book.

3. Bran - Clash
Theon knows where Bran and company are hiding. He will show no mercy. 200 pages before Bran is confirmed alive.

4. Jaime - Clash
Insults Cat repeatedly. Cat demands a sword. Last chapter in the book.

5. Davos - Clash
Drifts into the burning chain. Last chapter in the book.

6. Theon - Clash
Is on the losing end of the Battle of Winterfell turning into wholesale slaughter. Won't be seen for two books.

7. Jaime - Storm
Vargo Hoat sends a message to Lord Tywin. An arakh descends.

8. Cat - Storm
Red Wedding.. Well, she actually dies. Not the end of her story though.

9. Arya - Storm
The Hound's axe took her in the back of the head.

10. Davos - Storm
Stannis is ready to take his head off.

10a. Arya - Feast
Not dead, but blinded. Last chapter in the book.

11. Brienne - Feast
Hanged. Last chapter in the book.

12. Tyrion - Dance
Drowns in the Rhoyne.

13. Davos - Dance
Lord Manderly orders him executed. Was backed up in Feast.

14. Asha - Dance
Finishing blow with an axe.

15. Theon - Dance
Rowan promised to kill him after visiting "Abel".

16. Theon - Dance
Jumps down a 40-foot wall.

17. Jon - Dance
Gets caesared. Last chapter of the book.

So, 17 cases of a PoV character dying at the end of their chapter. Five of them at the end of the book. All presently alive and back in action, except Jon. Yet.

[Greymoon]

Even when dying he isn't dead.  How can you not see it?  He gets out of every sticky situation he is in and with each book becomes more central to the story and receives more ability to affect what's going on.  There is no way ADWD's ending leaves Jon Snow dead and that's it for him; he isn't in TWOW, he isn't in ADOS.

 

He gets out of every problem he gets into.  Not even death defeats him.  Jon Snow has the best plot armor in the series.  He's a main character and one of (if not the) key hero in the story so it's expected but how can you not see this?

 

And how can you not see that it's the same for Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Bran etc.? That's not having "plot armor", it's simply there being a plot, that GRRM writes. If no character had "plot armor" there would be no story. Jon doesn't have more plot armor than other characters in the books. He certainly doesn't have as much "plot armor" as Dany and Tyrion do...

 

...Bran should certainly be dead with that fall, but he survived and gained magical powers in exchange, then some weird green-seeing kid and his spear-wielding sister came to him to guide him and bring him to the far north where he got a mentor... If Jon's only hinted at potential ressurection is plot armor, what do you call what happened to Bran?

 

I'm writing potential, because "you think he's dead, do you?" I for one, do not. Not dead = no resurrection. It's as simple as that. How many characters were thought "dead" for a time but weren't, really? Asha, Arya, Davos...

[Richard Writhen]

He does fake character deaths many times. Cliffhanger storytelling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jon and Rob are not only first cousins but also grew up together. Of course they'd be similar.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

 

How would he survive half a dozen people stabbing him?

 

I have no idea. And I'm looking forward to finding out.

By the way, the "but how?" question certainly applies to Jon rising from the dead, as well.

[Kienn]

Grey Wind wasn't killed and will appear in WoW - likely in the prologue.

[Pancakes1800]

Even when dying he isn't dead.  How can you not see it?  He gets out of every sticky situation he is in and with each book becomes more central to the story and receives more ability to affect what's going on.  There is no way ADWD's ending leaves Jon Snow dead and that's it for him; he isn't in TWOW, he isn't in ADOS.

 

He gets out of every problem he gets into.  Not even death defeats him.  Jon Snow has the best plot armor in the series.  He's a main character and one of (if not the) key hero in the story so it's expected but how can you not see this?

Every character has this "plot armor".  Bran fell 100 feet out of a window and lived.  Dany walked into a funeral pyre and not only lived she got 3 dragons out of it.  A member of KG tried to kill Tyrion, but only got his nose chopped off.  Stannis was about to take KL and kill Tyrion, Cersei,  Joffrey and others but Tywin and the Tyrells came out of no where and defeated Stannis.  Jorah saving Dany from poison or Barristan saving her from Mero and the Manticore.  There's like a hundred more examples.  Every character that is currently alive has gotten out of every sticky situation, that's why they are alive.