Fearing the Niqab

[Fragile Bird]

We are in the middle of a federal election in Canada, and the current government is desperate to stay in power. It looks like they will go from having a majority in parliament to, at best, a minority, or if the gods smile on us, out of power altogether.

One of their central platforms is the fact that ONLY THEY can protect us from ISIS and other Islamic terrorists. They have slowed the immigration process for people from the Middle East to a trickle so that thorough security checks can be done on all applicants.

Another part of their attack has been directed at the niqab, which is the head covering worn by some Muslim women that only allows the eyes of the woman to be seen and not the rest of her face or head. Generally these women are also covered from head to foot, sometimes even wearing gloves, often in black robes that are reminiscent of the habits nuns once wore.

The Conservatives had decreed that no woman could take her oath of Canadian citizenship wearing a niqab, a decision overturned by an immigration panel and yesterday by the Federal courts, which decision is going to be appealed by the government. The court made their decision immediately, so the woman could take her oath and vote in the coming election.

The story: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/court-dismisses-government-appeal-of-decision-that-ban-on-niqab-at-citizenship-ceremonies-is-unlawful

The Prime Minister has stated that having a new immigrant hiding their face at the very moment they are joining the Canadian family is unacceptable, and that most Canadians agree with him. A poll did show very high support for his statement. http://globalnews.ca/news/1894770/most-canadians-say-faces-shouldnt-be-covered-at-citizenship-ceremonies-poll/

How do you feel about the niqab? Personally speaking, I feel sad when I see a woman in a niqab because I see a woman under the heel of patriarchal forces. If she wants to wear those clothes, it's her right. But I don't see any connection between religious admonitions to dress modestly and the requirement to be covered head to foot, perhaps because I was a young teen when all the nuns at my high school stopped wearing their habits and started wearing 'civvies' instead. It fits in with a story that was on the sidebar of my link, a story about the captain of the Iranian women's soccer team being barred from travelling to the Asian Cup because her husband took away her passport, which he has the right to do. Ugh.

I don't have any problem with a woman wearing a niqab to her Canadian citizenship swearing-in, but I may be in the minority there. The Conservatives say it could be a ringer under those clothes. ???!!! I do have a problem with the photo in a passport or on a driver's license being taken with a niqab on, (note - you can't) because those are documents with photo identification, not clothing identification.

What do you think about the wearing of the niqab? Religious freedom, or symbol of oppression, or somewhere in between?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

It's both a symbol of oppression and a religious freedom issue. I feel badly for any person that feels like they need to hide a portion of their body so as not to earn the disfavor of their god (or be ostracized from their family and social circles). Those are some pretty significant psychic weights.

 

That being said, I'm loathe to heap opprobrium and shame on women who already have quite enough other shit to deal with. 

 

On the other hand, I do appreciate that on a symbolic level, this clothing has come to represent a conflict of values that I think is potentially very legitimate. The niqab is, at the very least, in tension with how most Westerners view the role of women in society. Some of this is obviously undercut by the fact that often the most vocal conservative critics of the niqab are also the most vocal at policing the sexual morality of women generally. 

[Magnar of Skagos]

I am against the use of face and body coverings during oaths of citizenship and in getting photo identification given. How do you know the person in question actually is who they are claiming to be?

[HexMachina]

I am against the use of face and body coverings during oaths of citizenship and in getting photo identification given. How do you know the person in question actually is who they are claiming to be?

I was under the impression that they couldn't be worn for passport photos, and at the airport a female officer will ask a woman wearing the niqab to show her face in a private room to verify their identity. I could be mistaken, although I'm fairly confident on the ID photo thing for the UK at least

[Tywin Manderly]

In my country there is a general ban on face-covering clothing, with a couple of non-religious exceptions.

[sologdin]

is there a rightwing whose concerns aren't completely childish and trifling? FFS.

[Hayyoth]

Full face and head coverings amount to failure to identify yourself. If it's not OK for someone to wear a full face bike helmet when taking a citizenship test then it shouldn't be OK to wear a ninja outfit. If it's an issue about them not wanting to show their faces to men then they can be accommodated with female staff.

[Northernmonkey]

Obviously it's a bit depressing seeing a woman wearing one, but it's my understanding that the number of women wearing the full facial veil (in Europe anyway) is miniscule. It's a tiny issue that tends to get pushed by people who dislike Muslims.

[James Arryn]

I fucking hate Harper.

[TrueMetis]

I was under the impression that they couldn't be worn for passport photos, and at the airport a female officer will ask a woman wearing the niqab to show her face in a private room to verify their identity. I could be mistaken, although I'm fairly confident on the ID photo thing for the UK at least

 

Pretty sure Canada does something similar. I do know that the issue here was never about Photo ID. She has an ID, there was no problem getting the ID. This is purely about her wanting to be able to wear it while swearing the citizenship oath.

 

And her reasons seem reasonable. http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/03/16/why-i-intend-to-wear-a-niqab-at-my-citizenship-ceremony.html

 

 

It’s precisely because I won’t listen to how other people want me to live my life that I wear a niqab. Some of my own family members have asked me to remove it. I have told them that I prefer to think for myself.

 

My desire to live on my own terms is also why I have chosen to challenge the government’s decision to deny me citizenship unless I take off my niqab at my oath ceremony. I have taken my niqab off for security and identity reasons in every case where that’s been required of me, such as when I have taken a driver’s license photo or gone through airport security. I will take my niqab off again before the oath ceremony without protest so I can be properly identified. I will not take my niqab off at that same ceremony for the sole reason that someone else doesn’t like it, even if that person happens to be Stephen Harper.

 

So she's standing up for herself and telling Harper to go fuck himself. I think we can all get behind that.

[The BlackBear]

I thought Canada was meant to be the nice country?

 

I'm really struggling to think of a time when I've seen a person in the flesh wearing a Niqab, head scarves sure, not full veils though.

[Fragile Bird]

Pretty sure Canada does something similar. I do know that the issue here was never about Photo ID. She has an ID, there was no problem getting the ID. This is purely about her wanting to be able to wear it while swearing the citizenship oath.
 
And her reasons seem reasonable. http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/03/16/why-i-intend-to-wear-a-niqab-at-my-citizenship-ceremony.html
 
 
So she's standing up for herself and telling Harper to go fuck himself. I think we can all get behind that.

Right on!

[Nas!]

I think Harper should have to cover his eyes in public. Not only would it be symbolic of his politics, it would save us all from seeing his cold, dead eyes. It's like looking into a goat's eyes, fer chrissakes. My only concern is that this would improve his popularity.

[Gneisenau]

She was willing to take it off for identification for the ceremony, what more do people want ? I guess the conservatives don't want a veiled woman to mess up their fake citizenship ceremony photoshoots.

[Fragile Bird]

I think Harper should have to cover his eyes in public. Not only would it be symbolic of his politics, it would save us all from seeing his cold, dead eyes. It's like looking into a goat's eyes, fer chrissakes. My only concern is that this would improve his popularity.

I have a friend who has labelled him the man with Karla Homolka/Paul Bernardo eyes...

https://nowtoronto.com/downloads/59988/download/news-harper-0115.jpg?cb=0326266fb3db1af200d33b97979f0b9a

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/criminalminds/images/1/16/Bernardo_and_Homolka.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140221020123

[baxus]

How do you feel about the niqab?

 

I feel that, like every single one of religious customs, wearing niqab started as a common sense thing that has been warped throughout history.

When you think about it, wearing face-covering makes perfect sense in a desert environment, as a protection from wind, sun, sand etc.

During some period in time, it got twisted from "cover your faces and bodies to protect yourselves from the elements" to "cover your faces and bodies to protect yourselves from manly desires".

 

Without trying to get into the whole debate on religious rights, I find that niqab is downright impractical in western societies which it really is not a part of.

For example, a traffic cop asking a niqab-wearing woman for a driver's license would be an awkward situation at the very least.

[Crixus]

As someone living in a Muslim country, I loathe the niqab, the hijab and everything similar. Around here, many women who do wear either sport a smug, holier than thou attitude and look at women like me as though we're destined for hell. Just last weekend, my husband and I were going out and entered the lift with 2 veiled women. The way they stared at me... let's just say they were certain I'd been paid for my services, as I was wearing jeans, a sleeveless T and makeup (gasp!). Around here, it's women like me who are judged by women who are 'pious', which can range from mildly amusing to infuriating depending on your mood. I've often stared straight at such women and snarled, 'what?'. Of course, they look away at such points, possibly disgusted at my lack of female modesty and shyness. 

 

I also think it unreasonable to cover your face during ID checks. It's simply not feasible. If they're allowed to cover their faces otherwise, then why can't they be a tiny bit accommodating? 

 

I have read quite a bit of Islamic history and to my understanding, the veil was 'launched' after one of Muhammad's wives got left behind in the desert during a caravan journey and had to spend the night camped there along with a male acquaintance. The next day when they rejoined the others, they were subjected to gossip. Subsequently, a 'ruling' came down to the effect that Muhammad's wives should, to denote their special status, wear a veil (likely to elevate and distance them from the rest and thus lend a degree of immunity from mundane stuff like gossip). This sort of origin, if authentic, has nothing to do with modesty and is certainly not a 'must' either. 

[Fragile Bird]

Crikey!  Back to Sept. 17!

 

Just to update the matter, making the niqab an issue in the Canadian election seemed to backfire on the government, who lost the election and are now the official opposition.  While many Canadians would rather women not wear the niqab, they seem very annoyed that the government made an issue of it.  The idiots even came out with a  Barbaric Cultural Practices Act that bans things already banned, like child marriages and female genital mutilation, and in the last week of the election, announced a Barbaric Cultural Practices hotline where concerned citizens could report barbaric cultural acts they have witnessed or suspect have occurred.

 

And the woman who brought the lawsuit against the government had her right to wear a niqab to her citizenship ceremony upheld, and the government tried to get her citizenship ceremony delayed, but they lost that as well, and she was sworn in in time to vote.  I assume she did not vote Conservative.

[Tijgy]

In my country you can even get a criminal punishment for wearing a niqab.

In the past there have been instances where a police officer asked a woman wearing a niqab to identify herself (because she broke the law, ...). They went with her to the police office and there is still refused to her identify herself. The rest of the story I don't really remember, however all this stuff resulted in riots. 

The ban exists officially for security reasons (it actually says it is forbidden to wear something which conceals your face) but it is still allowed for carnival and stuff like that. 

I am personally against the fact people wear a niqab. In some Arabic/Islamic countries the women are actually fighting for the right not to wear it. As a woman I am not completely happy with the religious arguments why women should wear a niqab or a head scraf. It is sometimes said that they need to do it to protect themselves against the looks of men, ... IMO men should just behave themselves and control themselves. It is actually a way to victimize people.   In some Islamic countries Constitutional Courts actually said it was possible for the government to ban the niqab, ... It is not really obliged by the Islam to cover your face. So a ban is not really attack on the freedom of religion but more an attack on their culture - but it is about a women who is asking to be a citizen, to be part of you culture? 

I am not really familiar with the public opinion but if the majority is against this idea and if it does not go against the freedom, it should be possible not accept it. (However in Canada it was accepted as her right, so this argument is not really applicable in the concrete situation but I am meaning it abstractly)

Is that Barbarical Cultural Practise Act not a cheap election trick then? I think it is natural child marriages and genital mutilation are forbidden. I would say those are "barbarical" but I think it is indeed very cheap and ridiculous to create such hotline. 

[Tijgy]

I find your understanding of ''freedom of religion'' really quite peculiar. ''Freedom of religion'' is the right to practice whatever religion one chooses. Whether or not the niqab is directly mandated by Islam is pretty irrelevant, the point is that ''freedom of religion'' also means they can express their religion as they choose. Freedom of religion often comes into conflict with a lot of laws.

But banning the niqab is absolutely a restriction on someone's freedom of religion.

There is in fact discussion about this if the niqab are cultural or religious. 

But regarding human rights it does not matter ...

However in both case there would be restriction on someone's freedom. In the first case the freedom of expression (of opinion) and in the second case the freedom of religion (and probably also the freedom of expression). But those rights are not absolute. The only absolute human rights are the prohibition of torture and freedom of opinion (you can think whatever what you want - you cannot express everything). But all the other human rights can be limited by the law (under strict conditions of course). 

And it is very important for muslims why they should/want to wear a niqab They believe each "rule" can defined as an obligation, recommendation, neutral, not recommended, forbidden. According to muslims obligations cannot be forbidden and prohibitions cannot obliged. In Islamic law there is no obligation to wear a niqab. They only need to dress modestly. So in the end Islam does not say it is forbidden to prohibit. Those arguments were used by some Constitutional Courts in Arabic/Islamic countries.

Yes, there might here still a restriction on religion/expression but I believe there is a fundamental difference between when a state would prohibit one of the absolute islamic rules (f.e. prayer, Mekka, ...) and one of those recommendations. Restrictions on the last ones are accepted in the Islam. However according to the human rights you should still ensure those restrictions comply with the conditions of human rights (interests (security, women rights, ...) , proportionality, ...) however I believe those conditions are less strict if you place a restriction on a fundamental obligation of the Islam or just a restriction on one of those recommendations. 

And in my opinion there are arguments to prohibit the niqab. This is confirmed by the Belgian Constitutional Court and the European Court of Human Rights (which is in fact the only court that can enforce human right treaties; the rest are (sadly) not really enforceable).