Heresy 180

[Black Crow]

I'm back baby !!!   Sooooo what's up y'all ?  A couple of things to start;

• BC (or anyone), when did that letter under the OP drop ?  That thing is like crack and I'll need to digest it all before commenting. One thing I will say is that the line about (I'm paraphrasing) Arya and Jon's love for each other being altered by the truth about Jon's parentage makes me wonder if R+L =/= J?  But in fact that H + L = J.  I'll return to that below.
• Wofmaid you were on The South Bank Show !! How cool is that ?!?

 

Ok so I'm mainly here to post an update to my pet theory regarding the status of Bran.  In short my theory states that Bran inherited the title of King of Winter upon Robb's death at, or around the time he arrived at The Nightfort. What's significant about that you say?  Well if the King of Winter was conveyed through a magic portal in The Wall by a brother of the NW (a brother who took his oaths before the Old Gods no less) then the whole event itself takes on much more of a ritual significance.  So what's new then?  Well first and foremost, during a reread I noticed that for no apparent reason during Storm of Swords (roughly about when Bran, Meera and Jojen arrive at Queen's Crown)  Jojen starts calling Bran "Your Grace".

(side note: The crack about "by night all cloaks are black" is cool, implying that when the long NIGHT comes, everyone is a member of the NW)

Say what?  The correct term for addressing a prince is "My Prince", Martin himself establishes this in aGoT during the Joffrey/Nymeria incident.  After a quick kindle search I'm 99% certain that the only other people addressed as "Your Grace" in ALL THE BOOKS are kings and queens.  So what the hell is going on here ?  Simple explanation, Martin cocked up.  Not having that, sorry.  Better explanation, Jojen knows Robb  is dead and Bran is King.  

So what does this all mean?  Well take the title "King of Winter".  Blatantly it evocates thoughts of The Green Man/The Horned God/The Young Oak King from celtic paganism and Dany is doing a passable impersonation of the May Queen/Summer Queen/Flora just now so a conflict between the two I see as inevitable, Dany commanding her army of dragons, acolytes and freed slaves and Bran commanding the Walkers.

 

On a slight tangent let's look at what I said at the top about H+L=J:

The feast at Harrenhall bears a passing resemblance to a form of Beltane, coming as it did in Spring.  That the spring turned out to be a false one may be significant.  Many forms of the Beltane festival exist and many more variations of rituals but here is a description of a specific ritual performed at the Beltane festival still held in Edinburgh:

So in this ritual the Queen does the crowning, at Harrenhall of course Rhaegar (infamously) did the crowning.  So how do I get from this to H=L=J?  Well Howland reputedly went to the Isle of Faces, he may well literally be a "Green Man".  Lyanna was crowned "Queen of Love & Beauty, or "May Queen".  The part where the Green Man's winter costume is taken from him could relate to Lyanna unmasking Howland as the mystery knight or, given the switch in who crowns who, Howland unmasking Lyanna as such.  What if Lyanna and Howland slept together at Harrenhall and Jon is the result?  

As it is this theory currently contradicts my first one, as in celtic beliefs the child of the May Queen and the Green Man (Jon) is the the one that ultimately comes into conflict with the May Queen (Dany), is defeated and then becomes the new Green Man, marrying the May Queen the following spring.

 

Anyway, enough for now.   Thoughts as ever would be greatly appreciated, especially re Jojen and his use of "Your Grace".  Cheers

 

 

Addressing Bran as "Your Grace" may simply be a slip of the pen, but its also worth bearing in mind that whilst not all princes are kings, all kings are princes

[Black Crow]

 

• BC (or anyone), when did that letter under the OP drop ?  That thing is like crack and I'll need to digest it all before commenting. One thing I will say is that the line about (I'm paraphrasing) Arya and Jon's love for each other being altered by the truth about Jon's parentage makes me wonder if R+L =/= J?  But in fact that H + L = J.  

It surfaced quite a few months back, literally posted in the foyer of Harper Collins' offices.

Things have obviously moved on a bit since 1993, but the striking thing about the prospect of Jon getting inside Arya's knickers was that [a] it was solid confirmation that Jon is not the son of Eddard Stark and more importantly the rather limited objective rather blocks the assumption that this is all about Jon Snow being recognised as Jon Targaryen - in fact it stopped the R+L=J thread dead in its tracks for a couple of weeks until they decided to ignore it.

There's more interesting stuff in there of course and we've figured that the perilous journey into the heart of Ice is probably Bran's trek north to find Kurtz [think Heart of Darkness] but there's no harm in revisiting more of this now we're on the new site.

[TheButcherCrow]

Addressing Bran as "Your Grace" may simply be a slip of the pen, but its also worth bearing in mind that whilst not all princes are kings, all kings are princes

A slip of the pen that happens three times in two chapters which are separated by half a book?  I have trouble buying that, not when GRRM takes pains on several occasions to point out the correct usage of styles and forms of address.  Maybe I'm being too invested in my own logic but I can't help it.  Also, we've discussed before about the ladies of Bear Island and whether they know more than perhaps they should.  Remember when the young lady of Bear Island (I forget her name) writes to Stannis she says something along the lines of, "the north knows but one king and his name is Stark".  Now this is quite some considerable time after Robb's death during a period in which we are told most of Westeros believes the Stark line to be extinct.  So who is Lady Mormont referring to?  Before anyone says Jon, well no matter who his parents are, his name is not Stark and I think he's already decided it never will be..

[Black Crow]

That was rather the point I was making. Whilst it could be a slip, someone can be a prince and a king at one and the same time.

[TheButcherCrow]

There's more interesting stuff in there of course and we've figured that the perilous journey into the heart of Ice is probably Bran's trek north to find Kurtz [think Heart of Darkness] but there's no harm in revisiting more of this now we're on the new site.

I remember this coming up when I was last here and while the parallels are striking, you can also find those similarities in Jon's sojourn beyond The Wall and his plot arch with the wildlings.  Soldier gets sent into enemy territory and while at first he travels with comrades, he is eventually separated and alone.  He is then given the task of infiltrating the enemy and taking down a former soldier who has apparently thrown in with them, indeed, who now leads them.  You have to admit that Mance has a very strong whiff of Kurtz about him.  I should clarify, I'm referencing Apocalypse Now rather than HoD as I find them to be more thematically  compatible.   That said, BR as a Col Kurtz figure is a very plausible parallel.  Kurtz remember was an army general who demoted himself and went through USMC basic training, an interesting parallel to BR leaving the court intrigue of The Game and heading north to the NW, as if he suddenly realised where the real action was going to be.  Apocalypse also examines the insanity of a "civilised war" positing that unless you are able to cut off a baby's arms, then how can you hope to defeat people who are?  If we extend the analogy, BR would be looking to end a conflict in a fairly ruthless manner.  Has he hijacked the WW?  Or is that what he needs Bran for? 

[Black Crow]

I think that we can safely conclude that, given his earlier performance, his current role is not that of a kindly old sage.

 

After all the mummers are hardly likely to be engaging somebody of the calibre of Max von Sydow just to tell sad stories of the death of kings

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm back baby !!!   Sooooo what's up y'all ?  A couple of things to start;

• BC (or anyone), when did that letter under the OP drop ?  That thing is like crack and I'll need to digest it all before commenting. One thing I will say is that the line about (I'm paraphrasing) Arya and Jon's love for each other being altered by the truth about Jon's parentage makes me wonder if R+L =/= J?  But in fact that H + L = J.  I'll return to that below.
• Wofmaid you were on The South Bank Show !! How cool is that ?!?

 

Ok so I'm mainly here to post an update to my pet theory regarding the status of Bran.  In short my theory states that Bran inherited the title of King of Winter upon Robb's death at, or around the time he arrived at The Nightfort. What's significant about that you say?  Well if the King of Winter was conveyed through a magic portal in The Wall by a brother of the NW (a brother who took his oaths before the Old Gods no less) then the whole event itself takes on much more of a ritual significance.  So what's new then?  Well first and foremost, during a reread I noticed that for no apparent reason during Storm of Swords (roughly about when Bran, Meera and Jojen arrive at Queen's Crown)  Jojen starts calling Bran "Your Grace".

(side note: The crack about "by night all cloaks are black" is cool, implying that when the long NIGHT comes, everyone is a member of the NW)

Say what?  The correct term for addressing a prince is "My Prince", Martin himself establishes this in aGoT during the Joffrey/Nymeria incident.  After a quick kindle search I'm 99% certain that the only other people addressed as "Your Grace" in ALL THE BOOKS are kings and queens.  So what the hell is going on here ?  Simple explanation, Martin cocked up.  Not having that, sorry.  Better explanation, Jojen knows Robb  is dead and Bran is King.  

So what does this all mean?  Well take the title "King of Winter".  Blatantly it evocates thoughts of The Green Man/The Horned God/The Young Oak King from celtic paganism and Dany is doing a passable impersonation of the May Queen/Summer Queen/Flora just now so a conflict between the two I see as inevitable, Dany commanding her army of dragons, acolytes and freed slaves and Bran commanding the Walkers.

 

On a slight tangent let's look at what I said at the top about H+L=J:

The feast at Harrenhall bears a passing resemblance to a form of Beltane, coming as it did in Spring.  That the spring turned out to be a false one may be significant.  Many forms of the Beltane festival exist and many more variations of rituals but here is a description of a specific ritual performed at the Beltane festival still held in Edinburgh:

So in this ritual the Queen does the crowning, at Harrenhall of course Rhaegar (infamously) did the crowning.  So how do I get from this to H=L=J?  Well Howland reputedly went to the Isle of Faces, he may well literally be a "Green Man".  Lyanna was crowned "Queen of Love & Beauty, or "May Queen".  The part where the Green Man's winter costume is taken from him could relate to Lyanna unmasking Howland as the mystery knight or, given the switch in who crowns who, Howland unmasking Lyanna as such.  What if Lyanna and Howland slept together at Harrenhall and Jon is the result?  

As it is this theory currently contradicts my first one, as in celtic beliefs the child of the May Queen and the Green Man (Jon) is the the one that ultimately comes into conflict with the May Queen (Dany), is defeated and then becomes the new Green Man, marrying the May Queen the following spring.

 

Anyway, enough for now.   Thoughts as ever would be greatly appreciated, especially re Jojen and his use of "Your Grace".  Cheers

 

 

I don't think that Jojen calling Bran "Your Grace" is out of the ordinary. Is a normal way to adress royalty, in Martin's books.

Aegon V, while he is still a prince, is called "Your Grace", as well as Prince Baelor, Valarr, even Joffrey (by Sansa in AGOT, before he is attacked by Nymeria), Prince Maekar.. even Rhaenyra, by maester Orwyle, while he was telling her that her brother was the rightful King. 

 

I should say, at the same time, that Myrcella finds it odd to be called "Grace" by Arianne's friends during the Queenmaker plot. I considered only heirs to the throne were called such  in addition to the Kings and Queens (as Joffrey, Baelor, and through Baelor also Valarr were heirs to the throne at the time of the quotes), but that falls apart when considering that both Aegon and Maekar were also called such, despite them being quite far in the line of succesion (Rhaenyra could have been explained away by the fact that she had crowned herself). 

So I suppose that calling a male royalty "Your Grace" is not out of the ordinary, in addition to adressing your King and/or Queen such. Judging by Myrcella's reaction, it might be the case that Princesses are not normally adressed in such a way, though.. Or she was just scared because they immediately adressed her as "queen", in addition to "Your Grace", and that's where her reaction came from.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'm back baby !!!   Sooooo what's up y'all ?  

Hey, hey TBC!  Where you been?  We gave you up for lost after the Great Heresy Emigrations of September '14.  

Good to see you again!

[Black Crow]

Ah, you can't keep a good heretic down 

[Black Crow]

I don't think that Jojen calling Bran "Your Grace" is out of the ordinary. Is a normal way to adress royalty, in Martin's books.

Aegon V, while he is still a prince, is called "Your Grace", as well as Prince Baelor, Valarr, even Joffrey (by Sansa in AGOT, before he is attacked by Nymeria), Prince Maekar.. even Rhaenyra, by maester Orwyle, while he was telling her that her brother was the rightful King. 

 

I should say, at the same time, that Myrcella finds it odd to be called "Grace" by Arianne's friends during the Queenmaker plot. I considered only heirs to the throne were called such  in addition to the Kings and Queens (as Joffrey, Baelor, and through Baelor also Valarr were heirs to the throne at the time of the quotes), but that falls apart when considering that both Aegon and Maekar were also called such, despite them being quite far in the line of succesion (Rhaenyra could have been explained away by the fact that she had crowned herself). 

So I suppose that calling a male royalty "Your Grace" is not out of the ordinary, in addition to adressing your King and/or Queen such. Judging by Myrcella's reaction, it might be the case that Princesses are not normally adressed in such a way, though.. Or she was just scared because they immediately adressed her as "queen", in addition to "Your Grace", and that's where her reaction came from.

I agree, its an unexceptional way to address members of the Royal family and as for Myrcella I likewise agree that the most likely reason for her reaction was fear of the implications - including the supplementary calculation that she was dangerously akin to a pawn in somebody else's plot. Akin perhaps to Lady Jane Grey.

[TheButcherCrow]

I don't think that Jojen calling Bran "Your Grace" is out of the ordinary. Is a normal way to adress royalty, in Martin's books.

Aegon V, while he is still a prince, is called "Your Grace", as well as Prince Baelor, Valarr, even Joffrey (by Sansa in AGOT, before he is attacked by Nymeria), Prince Maekar.. even Rhaenyra, by maester Orwyle, while he was telling her that her brother was the rightful King. 

 

I should say, at the same time, that Myrcella finds it odd to be called "Grace" by Arianne's friends during the Queenmaker plot. I considered only heirs to the throne were called such  in addition to the Kings and Queens (as Joffrey, Baelor, and through Baelor also Valarr were heirs to the throne at the time of the quotes), but that falls apart when considering that both Aegon and Maekar were also called such, despite them being quite far in the line of succesion (Rhaenyra could have been explained away by the fact that she had crowned herself). 

So I suppose that calling a male royalty "Your Grace" is not out of the ordinary, in addition to adressing your King and/or Queen such. Judging by Myrcella's reaction, it might be the case that Princesses are not normally adressed in such a way, though.. Or she was just scared because they immediately adressed her as "queen", in addition to "Your Grace", and that's where her reaction came from.

Cheers for that , as I said I did a kindle search for the term but only the main books and I must have missed the Sansa in GoT.  That being said, it's still a bit weird Jojen should suddenly start using the term at or around the time of Robb's death.

Hey, hey TBC!  Where you been?  We gave you up for lost after the Great Heresy Emigrations of September '14.  

Good to see you again!

I've sailed to Asshai and back to bring you tales of wondrous things 

Ah, you can't keep a good heretic down 

You can try but something cold keeps raising us back up again...

[Black Crow]

I remember this coming up when I was last here and while the parallels are striking, you can also find those similarities in Jon's sojourn beyond The Wall and his plot arch with the wildlings.  Soldier gets sent into enemy territory and while at first he travels with comrades, he is eventually separated and alone.  He is then given the task of infiltrating the enemy and taking down a former soldier who has apparently thrown in with them, indeed, who now leads them.  You have to admit that Mance has a very strong whiff of Kurtz about him.  I should clarify, I'm referencing Apocalypse Now rather than HoD as I find them to be more thematically  compatible.   That said, BR as a Col Kurtz figure is a very plausible parallel.  Kurtz remember was an army general who demoted himself and went through USMC basic training, an interesting parallel to BR leaving the court intrigue of The Game and heading north to the NW, as if he suddenly realised where the real action was going to be.  Apocalypse also examines the insanity of a "civilised war" positing that unless you are able to cut off a baby's arms, then how can you hope to defeat people who are?  If we extend the analogy, BR would be looking to end a conflict in a fairly ruthless manner.  Has he hijacked the WW?  Or is that what he needs Bran for? 

To be honest it was the imagery of the journey in the mummers' version which reminded me in the first place of Apocalypse Now [don't really know why] but as soon as I went back to Conrad's original text it became so very very clear. Nevertheless I think that we are probably seeing both Conrad and Coppola in this and as I said earlier, whatever Bloodraven's ultimate objective he is, or was pretty ruthless in achieving it; a kindly mentor to young Bran he aint.

[Little and Less]

I came upon an interesting theory (not mine) that Jon will live and battle the White Walkers (or be their leader) - its probably been discussed before but I'm throwing it out there anyways.

Someone noted that the description of Waymar Royce in the GOT prologue is pretty much spot on to Jon Snow (especially once he joins the NW).  Royce is dressed all in black, the younger son of an Old House (that I believe follows the Old Gods too) and his looks and build is described as pretty identical to Jon (see Bran's first POV following the prologue - he compares Jon and Robb's builds).   Also, I believe it is Catelyn Stark that reminds Robb that a Royce/Wainwood married a Stark many moons ago.

Jon is also described as having the "Stark" look. Could the WW also be looking for a Stark? 

In the prologue, notice that in the White Walkers surround only Royce and appear to be VERY interested in Royce's sword and his fighting skills.  The author of this theory noted that this is the only time we see many WW attack a single person.  Usually it is the Wights that would attack.  Also, there are only 3 NW Rangers - why would more than one WW show up - unless they too are looking for their own version of the Last Hero or Night's King and flaming sword?   Maybe the WW also have their own set of prophecies.

Its scary to say, but maybe this is another very early hint by GRRM that Jon is one who will lead the battle against the WW.

[Black Crow]

All things are possible, but round these here parts we're more inclined to look for connections between the Starks and the blue-eyed lot. I'd also be a bit wary of the flaming sword business and shoehorning prophecies from the mysterious east into Westeros and assuming Jon to be Azor Ahai.

[Sly Wren]

I came upon an interesting theory (not mine) that Jon will live and battle the White Walkers (or be their leader) - its probably been discussed before but I'm throwing it out there anyways.

Someone noted that the description of Waymar Royce in the GOT prologue is pretty much spot on to Jon Snow (especially once he joins the NW).  Royce is dressed all in black, the younger son of an Old House (that I believe follows the Old Gods too) and his looks and build is described as pretty identical to Jon (see Bran's first POV following the prologue - he compares Jon and Robb's builds).   Also, I believe it is Catelyn Stark that reminds Robb that a Royce/Wainwood married a Stark many moons ago.

Jon is also described as having the "Stark" look. Could the WW also be looking for a Stark? 

In the prologue, notice that in the White Walkers surround only Royce and appear to be VERY interested in Royce's sword and his fighting skills.  The author of this theory noted that this is the only time we see many WW attack a single person.  Usually it is the Wights that would attack.  Also, there are only 3 NW Rangers - why would more than one WW show up - unless they too are looking for their own version of the Last Hero or Night's King and flaming sword?   Maybe the WW also have their own set of prophecies.

Its scary to say, but maybe this is another very early hint by GRRM that Jon is one who will lead the battle against the WW.

I agree--they could be looking for a Stark, especially given the fact that the Starks and Royces are related. But if I remember right, Will seems to not that the Other looks at Waymar's sword--doesn't seem to note whether or not the Other studies Royce.

As for why multiple Walkers show up--the others only come in after the first Other checks out the sword. Silent signal? They seem to enjoy killing him once they realize he is helpless. So, I think they are looking for a specific sword--but seems less like they are hunting for it and more as though they are wary. Only one goes in first. Once he sees Royce's sword, it's safe for the rest. Maybe.

All things are possible, but round these here parts we're more inclined to look for connections between the Starks and the blue-eyed lot. 

But are the two mutually exclusive? Can't it be both a connection and an opposition--like the Stark in Winterfell taking out the Stark Night's King at the Wall?

 I'd also be a bit wary of the flaming sword business and shoehorning prophecies from the mysterious east into Westeros and assuming Jon to be Azor Ahai.

Agreed--any myth where the hero kills his wife to up his sword's fabulosity factor--something's wrong with that definition of a hero.

[Black Crow]

I agree--they could be looking for a Stark, especially given the fact that the Starks and Royces are related. But if I remember right, Will seems to not that the Other looks at Waymar's sword--doesn't seem to note whether or not the Other studies Royce.

As for why multiple Walkers show up--the others only come in after the first Other checks out the sword. Silent signal? They seem to enjoy killing him once they realize he is helpless. So, I think they are looking for a specific sword--but seems less like they are hunting for it and more as though they are wary. Only one goes in first. Once he sees Royce's sword, it's safe for the rest. Maybe.

But are the two mutually exclusive? Can't it be both a connection and an opposition--like the Stark in Winterfell taking out the Stark Night's King at the Wall?

 

I rather had the impression the First Other was sizing up how Ser Waymar was holding the sword [ie; firm and resolute like] rather than examining the blade itself.

As to hunting the Snark, sorry Stark, as I said all things are possible but I think it unlikely. There are grumbles later about too many rangers going missing and Ser Waymar was seemingly just the latest melancholy statistic 

[as an aside if Gared confessed all - and we know Mormont knows - why did Benjen need to go looking for him? And no there was no line about recovering his body]

Yes there could be and probably is a "connection and opposition" but I don't see the scragging of Ser Waymar fitting in here

 

[Black Crow]

any myth where the hero kills his wife to up his sword's fabulosity factor--something's wrong with that definition of a hero.

This is something we were discussing on the lost Heresy 179.

Leaving aside the sacrificing your own wife for a bright red Ferrari, there's a fairly fundamental problem with this hero business. We get the Last Hero early on in AGoT courtesy of Old Nan. Unquestionably home grown in terms of geography and tradition but no hint of him being reborn or otherwise destined to come again. Then we get Mel proclaiming a hero foretold in ancient books of Asshai - effectively as far away from Westeros as its possible to get in the known world. He has a flaming sword, but leaving Mel's fakery aside is it real or metaphorical? Benero seems happy to accept Dany's Amazing Dragons as the fiery sword to cleanse the world. We learn of the Prince that was Promised, who may be one and the same but probably isn't, and then in the World Book we learn of all sorts of other ones.

Shoe-horning Stannis or Jon for that matter into Azor Ahai, the hero from Asshai seems doubtful.

The point is that all of these heroes are moulded in the image of their myth-makers and that brings us back to the lost discussion as to whether Bran, not some Targaryen, is the true Prince that was Promised, whose coming has been prepared and awaited by Brynden Blackwood.

[Sly Wren]

This is something we were discussing on the lost Heresy 179.

Leaving aside the sacrificing your own wife for a bright red Ferrari, there's a fairly fundamental problem with this hero business. We get the Last Hero early on in AGoT courtesy of Old Nan. Unquestionably home grown in terms of geography and tradition but no hint of him being reborn or otherwise destined to come again. Then we get Mel proclaiming a hero foretold in ancient books of Asshai - effectively as far away from Westeros as its possible to get in the known world. He has a flaming sword, but leaving Mel's fakery aside is it real or metaphorical? Benero seems happy to accept Dany's Amazing Dragons as the fiery sword to cleanse the world. We learn of the Prince that was Promised, who may be one and the same but probably isn't, and then in the World Book we learn of all sorts of other ones.

Shoe-horning Stannis or Jon for that matter into Azor Ahai, the hero from Asshai seems doubtful.

 

I've started to wonder if the reason Mel sees Jon when she asks to see Azor Ahai is because Jon might end up doing what she thinks AA would do, NOT because he's actually AA. In short, she's seeing the hero she wants, not the one she thinks she wants.

Hopefully that makes sense. 

But I'm also really wary of the Targs' Promised Prince prophecy. The Stallion that Mounts the World sounds great for Dothraki. But would be sheer horror for everyone else. Am thinking that the Prince that was Promised might end up being the same thing--the Targs just didn't know it.

The point is that all of these heroes are moulded in the image of their myth-makers and that brings us back to the lost discussion as to whether Bran, not some Targaryen, is the true Prince that was Promised, whose coming has been prepared and awaited by Brynden Blackwood.

Maybe--though I'm currently thinking (subject to change without notice) that Bloodraven picked Bran because he knew he needed a Stark to "power" the Long Night. Possibly because a Stark did it in the first place. Or because the Starks' blood has been keeping the last Long Night Factory (worst version of Willy Wonka ever) down. So, needs a Stark to counter that power.

[Sly Wren]

I rather had the impression the First Other was sizing up how Ser Waymar was holding the sword [ie; firm and resolute like] rather than examining the blade itself.

Maybe, but that's not what Will tells us:

QUOTE: The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. Game, Prologue.

Only after the Other checks out how light plays on the sword do the other Others come in. Martin told us right in the Prologue: they are looking at swords. And examining what the swords do in the light. Only when the sword turns out to be ordinary is it safe for the rest to come in. And play "kill the Watchman."

So--what is the Other expecting Waymar's sword to do? The Others' armor lets moonlight shift and play over it. But their swords glow faintly blue. I think they are looking for the sword that people describe as "alive with light"--Dawn. And that when Jon dreams of holding a sword that burns red in his first, that's what he's seeing: Dawn. Because that was the key sword the last time around.

As to hunting the Snark, sorry Stark, as I said all things are possible but I think it unlikely. There are grumbles later about too many rangers going missing and Ser Waymar was seemingly just the latest melancholy statistic 

[as an aside if Gared confessed all - and we know Mormont knows - why did Benjen need to go looking for him? And no there was no line about recovering his body]

Yes there could be and probably is a "connection and opposition" but I don't see the scragging of Ser Waymar fitting in here

Yeah--the idea the Others are hunting for Starks doesn't quite fit with what we see them actually do. But we do see the Free Folk not Jon's Starkness. Still, I'm thinking "Stark" alone isn't the only issue.

Though I may be prejudiced by the fact that I think the Others are doing others' bidding. Not an entity unto themselves. . . 

[TheButcherCrow]

 

I've started to wonder if the reason Mel sees Jon when she asks to see Azor Ahai is because Jon might end up doing what she thinks AA would do, NOT because he's actually AA. In short, she's seeing the hero she wants, not the one she thinks she wants.

Hopefully that makes sense. 

But I'm also really wary of the Targs' Promised Prince prophecy. The Stallion that Mounts the World sounds great for Dothraki. But would be sheer horror for everyone else. Am thinking that the Prince that was Promised might end up being the same thing--the Targs just didn't know it.

 

Not to be semantic but if Jon fulfills the the prophecy of AAR as far as I'm concerned, he is AAR.  To clarify, I don't actually think there is a specific person who is the reincarnated soul of an ancient hero, that's stupid and not the story I'm reading.  One of the definite "magical" abilities that exists within asoiaf is clairvoyance.  For whatever reason and by whatever means some individuals can see glimpses of images from the future, it is their interpretation (and subsequent reinterpretations) that cause myths and legends to grow up. Basically I think that during the Long Night (an event I believe was global) someone invented Valyrian Steel.  From this genesis we get the legend of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. Btw, I have to take a bit of issue with BC calling Lightbringer a "red ferrari", the legend is supposed to inspire and aside from the blatant misogyny of considering your wife your most prized possession, giving up the things you love to save others is a laudable concept to promote.  Anyway, back to my point, people see glimpses of the future and then add arms and legs to what they've seen. The sequence of events (for me) is as follows.  The long night covers the world and people are forced to battle WW & wights, the war goes ill for the living because no matter how many wights they kill, they have no way to destroy the WW that control the wights.  Step forward Azor Ahai, blacksmith of Asshai.  Using magic and technology AA creates a new type of steel that can kill WW (it may be that VS requires some form of blood rite and that's why no-one is able to recreate it and that requirement is also the genesis of the Nissa Nissa story).  With enough good warriors armed with this new technology the living were able to hold out until the return of spring.  Now centuries pass and the story gets arms and legs.  AA wasn't just a blacksmith who invented a new steel, he was a great hero and warrior who sacrificed his life to create a special sword.  At some point a greendreamer/clairvoyant in Asshai saw a glimpse of the future in which the "demons of snow and ice" had returned.  They saw someone fighting them with a blade that seemed to glow and they saw some indicators of where this is supposed to take place and declared the return of Azor Ahai.  At this point R'hllorism (a religion I reckon had to start during the Long Night) have co-opted this prophecy to marry up with their own prophecies about a warrior of light.  Then during the rise of the Valyrian Freehold, the valyrians have taken this prophecy and added in dragons.  Dragon's have issues with gender pronouns so when the legend moved to Westeros, dragons become princes and we're about as far from the truth as we could actually get.  As to the Last Hero, the main difference of course is that AAR is a prophecy and  the LH is a legend, an oral tradition that has no doubt had arms and legs added to it over the years.  Of course we don't know the end of that story but one must assume that the LH returns or how did anybody know the story ?