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Heresy 180


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Just to expand a little on the book. All we really know is that Roose found something important in it, which he read, inwardly digested and then destroyed to prevent anyone else discovering it.

We can reasonably conclude therefore that it was [a] something not generally known and useful to him. 

This actually narrows the options dramatically. We're not talking about some secret concerning the Targaryens and or their dragons. That's too recent to be known of only in an old book [somebody always tells] and irrelevant in that the last Dragonlord is way out east.

Baratheons? Unlikely given [a] he knows he's really dealing with the Lannisters and something in an old book isn't going to hurt them.

This latter point is the important bit. Something written in an old book isn't going to upset the balance of power in Westeros, yet whatever knowledge is revealed is going to have to be used by him, not proclaimed.

This suggests that its old knowledge about the Starks and about Winterfell and perhaps thereby the Prince in Winterfell.

Very interesting. I wonder if it was also once read by previous inhabitants of Harrenhal, namely the Whents, and the close friend of one particular Whent, one Ray Ray Targers.

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Reading is one thing. Understanding its relevance is quite another. Here Roose appears to have learned a piece of information that he can use, but which looks as if it is old rather than recent and political, hence the suggestion that its a translation of some ancient runes pertaining to the North.

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Reading is one thing. Understanding its relevance is quite another. Here Roose appears to have learned a piece of information that he can use, but which looks as if it is old rather than recent and political, hence the suggestion that its a translation of some ancient runes pertaining to the North.

I would hate for something "magical" to be in the hands and mind of Roose.Gives me the shivers.

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I would hate for something "magical" to be in the hands and mind of Roose.Gives me the shivers.

Depends on how you define magical. What started off this chain of thought was how a native Westerosi version of the Prince that was Promised prophecy might be discovered - pointing eventually to Bran, the Prince of Winterfell.

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Sooo. The "Reek" game. Is it Ramsey's, or did it start before him? Thoughts?

Once again not a lot to go on. If there is something significant then it has to be connected with the smell.

I really don't know of anything myself but I suppose that if you can have an odour of sanctity you can have the reverse.

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Depends on how you define magical. What started off this chain of thought was how a native Westerosi version of the Prince that was Promised prophecy might be discovered - pointing eventually to Bran, the Prince of Winterfell.

Oh i see kinda like the prophecy changed local??

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Not necessarily changed. As I said earlier there seem to be multiple versions of the prophecy each in the local idiom.

 

The hero foretold in Westeros may not be Azor Ahai or at least not as imagined by Mel or Benero, and nor need he or she be a Targaryen

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Of course the corollary to this is that there is no one hero foretold; that Azor Ahai may return only in Asshai, the Stallion only among the Dothraki and we may question whether the Prince will arise in Valyria or whether he is the Prince in Winterfell who will be Bran the Blessed - the Crow God.

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Not necessarily changed. As I said earlier there seem to be multiple versions of the prophecy each in the local idiom.

 

The hero foretold in Westeros may not be Azor Ahai or at least not as imagined by Mel or Benero, and nor need he or she be a Targaryen

True,in that sense very true.Prophetic evolution so to speak.I'm kind of skeptical about these things we have seen Mel manipulate "signs" to make it look as if Stannis is AA/TPTWP and while we know little about the Wood witch i get the sense that she may not have been native to Westeros or she was well traveled,or she could have just been doing a bit of manipulation of her own.

Of course the corollary to this is that there is no one hero foretold; that Azor Ahai may return only in Asshai, the Stallion only among the Dothraki and we may question whether the Prince will arise in Valyria or whether he is the Prince in Winterfell who will be Bran the Blessed - the Crow God.

We know that prophecies don't unfold how people think they will but i don't know if it will be so far off.I was thinking that the problem would occur in the "from the line of Aerys and Rhaella" part and lots of options there for instance the fabled prince being from the line in name but not "of the line in blood"

Not to say that what you say is not possible,i always wondered what criteria did Mel vet Stannis before she started helping things along?

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To take this talk about the Prince that Was Promised in a slightly different direction, I was thinking back to an earlier proposal that in High Valyrian Prince=Dragon, making the Prince that Was Promised the Dragon that Was Promised.   Much of the textual evidence for this proposal arises from the dying Aemon's musings:

"What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!  The error crept in from the translation.  Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.  The language misled us all for a thousand years."

If the word for dragon is unusual for lacking gender, wouldn't it also make sense for prince to be the same word?  It would certainly explain the error in translation as well as the Targaryen passion for referring themselves as the "Blood of the Dragon", or "Blood of the Prince that Was Promised", or even their delusions that they were dragons in human form and subsequent consumption of wildfire/desire to burn it all to the ground.  Error in translation, indeed.

As far as where I am going with this, consider this error in translation.  The Ghost of High Heart comes to the Court with Jenny of Oldstones and predicts that the Dragon/Prince that Was Promised would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.  Aegon V hears this, of course, and when it is time for the Dragon that Was Promised to be born, he attempts something at Summerhall, probably involving blood and fire magic, including wildfire, attempting to get the real dragon that he thinks that he needs to reorder the realm.  Basically, Egg wants the dragon of his dreams, and the Ghost of High Heart told him (as he understood it) that Aerys and Rhaella would give the dragon to him.  Oops.

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Essentially yes, as I said before we needn't necessarily place too much faith in the Prince that was promised coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella given that she was probably telling the Targaryens what they wanted to hear rather than accurately foretelling events.

While I'm still of a mind that there are multiple heroes waiting to rise again at need the lost in translation business might be taken as strengthening the case for Danaerys the Dragonlord being the one true and authentic hero. Master Benero has proclaimed her as such without a qualm; Maester Aemon concluded that the language was wrong and that it was she, and we could be seeing the same thing with the Dothraki where the Dosh Khaleen proclaimed her to be carrying the Stallion that Rides when in fact she herself is the "Stallion".

If so, then we might be looking not at Western mythologies, but further east and Shiva the Destroyer as her literary role model.

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Of course its always worth reminding ourselves that none of this "chosen one" stuff is even hinted at in the early synopses which clearly put Danaerys on the Iron Throne and facing the problem of what to do about the Others.

And there the real question is not about a hero arising but what the Others are about and who or what's behind them and here the key is GRRM's remarks about Aragorn and Lord of the Rings in that Rolling Stone interview:

Tolkien doesn't ask the question: What was Aragorn's tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren't gone – they're in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

 http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423#ixzz3sWdMEgva 
 

This you see goes beyond Aragorn and Danaerys; to GRRM there is more to the orcs than ugly killers and he clearly feels that this was a failing in LOTR, so why should we assume that the Others [his Others] are as anonymous as Tolkein's orcs?

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If the word for dragon is unusual for lacking gender, wouldn't it also make sense for prince to be the same word?  It would certainly explain the error in translation as well as the Targaryen passion for referring themselves as the "Blood of the Dragon", or "Blood of the Prince that Was Promised", or even their delusions that they were dragons in human form and subsequent consumption of wildfire/desire to burn it all to the ground.  Error in translation, indeed.

It might also explain the Targaryen ideal of the ruler. Their "prince" in a conqueror, not a nurturer or leader. 

Dany has a few lines about wanting to plant trees and see them grow. But then hears Jorah's voice: "dragons plant no trees."

Cultivation, nurturing, and growth--these are not things dragons--the ultimate predators--excel at. If the Targaryens see leaders/princes as innately conquerors, like the Dothraki and their idea of the Stallion that Mounts the World, could explain why they might not be able to withstand the reality of Westeros and its impending long night: you can't defeat winter by defeating people. You have to rally them, not force them to kneel.

Essentially yes, as I said before we needn't necessarily place too much faith in the Prince that was promised coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella given that she was probably telling the Targaryens what they wanted to hear rather than accurately foretelling events.

I'm thinking (as many have thought before me) that the same can be said of Mel asking for AA and seeing Snow. She probably wouldn't want the actual AA (given some of the speculation about him). She needs a hero (cue Bonnie Tyler). She sees what she wants, not what she thinks she wants.

While I'm still of a mind that there are multiple heroes waiting to rise again at need the lost in translation business might be taken as strengthening the case for Danaerys the Dragonlord being the one true and authentic hero. Master Benero has proclaimed her as such without a qualm; Maester Aemon concluded that the language was wrong and that it was she, and we could be seeing the same thing with the Dothraki where the Dosh Khaleen proclaimed her to be carrying the Stallion that Rides when in fact she herself is the "Stallion".

But given how the Targs see ruling, how Dany embraced (at the end of Game) Viserys' idea of taking back "her" throne, of the fact that "dragons don't plant trees," and that the Stallion the Mounts the World is all well and good for the Dothraki, but terrible for all who aren't Dothraki--Dany's embraced the conquering ethic. Not the "hero" ethic. She may want to be Mysha. But she's Khalessi. 

If so, then we might be looking not at Western mythologies, but further east and Shiva the Destroyer as her literary role model.

Now this could work--Dany as the destroyer who opens the way for rebirth. She is the moon, wife of sun. The Moon with its changing face. I am just having a hard time seeing how the thoughts and ethics in her head, not to mention her being in front of a khalassar, will be anything but trouble for Westeros. Which is already falling apart. 

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Now this could work--Dany as the destroyer who opens the way for rebirth. She is the moon, wife of sun. The Moon with its changing face. I am just having a hard time seeing how the thoughts and ethics in her head, not to mention her being in front of a khalassar, will be anything but trouble for Westeros. Which is already falling apart. 

The original synopsis had Dany the Dragonlord [and I use the term advisedly] conquering Westeros and then discovering it was easier to conquer than rule, but we seem pretty well agreed this part has been translated into Mereen in the book as written, so whither now the Dragonlord. Is she going destroy the slavers once and for all, rule her ungrateful new people wisely and take up knitting or is she going to sweep westward with her dragons and her khalassar and her Ironborn as Shiva the Destroyer?

And if so is she going to be stopped by the Prince that was Promised?

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With all this talk about different hero prophecies I want to point out that there is no such prophecy from Westeros. The Last Hero story is just that: a story/legend. Nowhere is his reappearance/rebirth foretold. At least no such prophecy is directly spelled out in this story. I have a suggestion though: the winged wolf.

We first learn of the winged wolf from Jojen:

“I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

Jojen had many green dreams before but this one must have been special because it led Howland Reed to abandon his decades old isolation and send his only two children on to a dangerous mission:

“When Jojen told our lord father what he’d dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell.”

So my speculation is that the imagery of a winged wolf is not some unknown metaphor to Howland Reed but something he has heard of before and which he considers to be of the utmost importance. Since Howland never left the Neck except for the KoTLT story and the following war it seems logical that the winged wolf is connected to those events. Which leads me to Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and the unusual wedding he pursued.

We know of the Targaryens that they tried for decades to find the right match of partners to create the PtwP and bring back the dragons. What if Rickard Stark was doing something similar? Find the right bride for his heir to create the winged wolf and bring back skinchanging. Catelyn Tully of course is descended from a Whent of Harrenhal whose sigil is the bat. It seems to have worked since the current Stark kids are all skinchanger.

Of course Rhaegar and Lyanna had a different kind of winged wolf in mind...

 

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With all this talk about different hero prophecies I want to point out that there is no such prophecy from Westeros. The Last Hero story is just that: a story/legend. Nowhere is his reappearance/rebirth foretold. At least no such prophecy is directly spelled out in this story. I have a suggestion though: the winged wolf.

We first learn of the winged wolf from Jojen:

“I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

Jojen had many green dreams before but this one must have been special because it led Howland Reed to abandon his decades old isolation and send his only two children on to a dangerous mission:

“When Jojen told our lord father what he’d dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell.”

So my speculation is that the imagery of a winged wolf is not some unknown metaphor to Howland Reed but something he has heard of before and which he considers to be of the utmost importance. Since Howland never left the Neck except for the KoTLT story and the following war it seems logical that the winged wolf is connected to those events. Which leads me to Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and the unusual wedding he pursued.

We know of the Targaryens that they tried for decades to find the right match of partners to create the PtwP and bring back the dragons. What if Rickard Stark was doing something similar? Find the right bride for his heir to create the winged wolf and bring back skinchanging. Catelyn Tully of course is descended from a Whent of Harrenhal whose sigil is the bat. It seems to have worked since the current Stark kids are all skinchanger.

Of course Rhaegar and Lyanna had a different kind of winged wolf in mind...

 

Glad you brought this up, although it takes me slightly off topic. Anyone have any ideas on the stone chains? Because it always reminds me of this quote from Tytos Blackwood:

"The Brackens poisoned it," said his host. "for a thousand years it has not shown a leaf. In another thousand it will have turned to stone, the maesters say. Weirwoods never rot.

If the stone chains are the weirwood roots, then the Winged Wolf hasn't been bound yet, and the crow mentioned in the dream is either NOT the three eyed crow or Blood Raven is not the three eyed crow. The crow in the dream is trying to free Bran. Should we be looking for a member of the nights watch to try and save Bran once he is in the weirwood?

Edit: Didn't fully explain my train of thought.  I believe Jojen has interpreted wrong. Instead of freeing Bran and taking him to BR, they have actually led him to bondage. The biggest reason I mistrust BR and the children.

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Glad you brought this up, although it takes me slightly off topic. Anyone have any ideas on the stone chains? Because it always reminds me of this quote from Tytos Blackwood:

"The Brackens poisoned it," said his host. "for a thousand years it has not shown a leaf. In another thousand it will have turned to stone, the maesters say. Weirwoods never rot.

If the stone chains are the weirwood roots, then the Winged Wolf hasn't been bound yet, and the crow mentioned in the dream is either NOT the three eyed crow or Blood Raven is not the three eyed crow. The crow in the dream is trying to free Bran. Should we be looking for a member of the nights watch to try and save Bran once he is in the weirwood?

I interpreted the grey stone chains as the influence of  the chained Maester Luwin who is always dressed in grey robes and tries to prevent Bran's dreams with potions and also tries to talk him out of any kind of magical thing (dreams, wolves, Children, etc.).

But I like your suggestion as well.

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I interpreted the grey stone chains as the influence of  the chained Maester Luwin who is always dressed in grey robes and tries to prevent Bran's dreams with potions and also tries to talk him out of any kind of magical thing (dreams, wolves, Children, etc.).

But I like your suggestion as well.

I've seen others interpret it that way and it does work very well. I am still very skeptical. The quote from Tytos comes in the Jaime chapter after the Bran chapter where he has the weirwood paste and BR tells Bran who he is. It is the only Jaime chapter in ADWD.

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With all this talk about different hero prophecies I want to point out that there is no such prophecy from Westeros. The Last Hero story is just that: a story/legend. Nowhere is his reappearance/rebirth foretold. At least no such prophecy is directly spelled out in this story. I have a suggestion though: the winged wolf.

True and that seems a bit odd, which is one of the reasons why I suggested earlier that the fact of the Azor Ahai prophecy written in the ancient books of Asshai shouldn't kid us into thinking its the mother prophecy, but rather simply reflects the levels of literacy in Asshai vis a vis everywhere else. In Westeros we know writing came from the Andal septons but older knowledge is presumed lost because it only existed in the form of runes.

Hence my suggestion that the book burned by Roose Bolton may have been an antiquarian one containing translations of runic texts and saying something of significance about a Prince of Winterfell

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