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Heresy 180


Black Crow

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Hi again. Thanks a lot for the reminders, replies, and discussions. I enjoyed reading them.

I had another two topics I wanted to discuss:

1. We always talk about magic from COTF being blood magic (Being related to Weirwood trees and all) . Where did this blood (source of magic) come from when humans weren't around? As I understand, humans are late additions to the world in Westroes, but magic was prevalent before they came, so what was the source of blood before humans? Animals? COTF? COTF seem to live for long and do not reproduce much (or at all), so sacrificing themselves would both be impractical and a much grander sacrifice than killing a human. It just seems to me that blood as the source for magic must be the result of human presence and they might even have brought it with themselves (from Essos in general). Also, Bran Only saw humans sacrifing humans, we never really saw COTF sacrificing Humans, nor did we really see if that blood added to his abilities or give him any kind of powers. It might just be that First men when appropriating the culture of COTF added part of their previous culture to it. Was this discussed before?

2. (To contradict myself completely) If we agree that blood magic is something of relevance to COTF AND/OR WW, then I would say that maybe the whole flock of wildlings are sacrificial offerings to powers beyond the Wall. Let's assume that NW has actually stayed true to its mission all this time (that Jon, Mance, and Maester Aemon got it completely wrong). NW's true mission was ensuring the presence of Wildlings on the other side of the Wall. Child bearing Wildlings seem like an unending resource of Blood to me. We know that Wildlings have been fending off the WWs and Wights forever. We also see signs of sacrifice to WW in Craster's behavior. He simply might have been doing his duty all along. Also, as we saw at the very beginning of the story (and as I have read somewhere in the huge body of Heresy archives) all the wildlings that cross the wall and get caught, get killed(read sacrificed) immediately. The same goes for NW members, they are sacrificial offerings as well (I am pretty sure I read this theory somewhere too). I would say that this could go for all the beings on the other side of the wall (COTF, giants, and mammoths included). If we had a wide distribution of all races in both sides of the Wall, maybe they were all offered. Maybe Leaf (and other possible COTF beyond the wall) know and are still trying to get away. Extinction of those races south of wall has no specific relation to the wall itself. Starks where basically the second base who ensured this sacrificing probably because otherwise the whole realm of men would become the hunting ground.

This would be a good answer to why there is a very Tall Wall made of Ice to protect the real of men (men who have no magical abilities both in its creation or its maintenance). It would also answer why it is made of Ice, the only material WW have power upon (as far as we know), they built it to keep their offerings in and separate from the rest of humans. It might not be very effective to keep the WW in or to build it so tall, but it does a very fine job of keeping the Wildlings in (As we saw during the story and this seemed to be the most organized attack in the history of Wildlings). Of course it would be completely OK for men to ENTER the north region (S->N) as it would make them fair game, but getting out (N->S) would be trickier.

It would also answer the question of "The Wall stays tall as long as NW stays true.. ". Well NW is not true anymore. Not because its members are breaking their vows or are killing their Lord commanders (the last two), because they let the Wildlings in.   

Also, I would say to me the whole "Winter is Coming" part of this current story did not make sense. WW seems to be OK with being on the other side of the wall, anybody who gets killed is in the North side of the wall and we hear of WW becoming more active as we hear the news of Wildlings organizing to get out. I never really saw the tension building up, unless the crossing of Wildlings from the Wall is the tension building action which would bring down the wall, erase the old solution, and call for a different balanced solution of ice and fire (or something like that). This whole tension building might be the true plan that COTF and BR have been executing all along. These are just speculations as this point.

What do you think?

 

Later Edit: someone said the same thing, although in a more abbreviated manner here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/133317-wildlings-free-range-sacrifices/&page=2

Once again there is little new under the sun or in heresy :commie:

As to where the blood came from before men arrived in Westeros its stated in the World Book that the tree-huggers sacrificed their own, and probably anything else, like giants. What has been speculated in heresy is that there may have been unintended circumstances arising out of feeding human blood into the weirwood system, but I'll leave that to those who hold the ideas.

As to the Wall and its true purpose, this is a question that goes back to the very beginning and The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy [actually it goes back beyond that cos that thread in itself was building on ongoing discussions in other threads], but yes, with a nod to the Butcher Crow and his reminder that not all of us agree with all of the ideas discussed on Heresy, there is a very strong belief amongst some of us that the Wall isn't a grotesque military fortification built by men, but is a magical barrier separating the realms of men from the otherlands beyond, and that the reason why the Others are "mysterious" is not because they are as faceless as Tolkein's orcs, but because they are much closer to home.

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Once again there is little new under the sun or in heresy :commie:

As to where the blood came from before men arrived in Westeros its stated in the World Book that the tree-huggers sacrificed their own, and probably anything else, like giants. What has been speculated in heresy is that there may have been unintended circumstances arising out of feeding human blood into the weirwood system, but I'll leave that to those who hold the ideas.

As to the Wall and its true purpose, this is a question that goes back to the very beginning and The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy [actually it goes back beyond that cos that thread in itself was building on ongoing discussions in other threads], but yes, with a nod to the Butcher Crow and his reminder that not all of us agree with all of the ideas discussed on Heresy, there is a very strong belief amongst some of us that the Wall isn't a grotesque military fortification built by men, but is a magical barrier separating the realms of men from the otherlands beyond, and that the reason why the Others are "mysterious" is not because they are as faceless as Tolkein's orcs, but because they are much closer to home.

Thank you for the reply. I haven't read the world book, so thanks for clarifying the issue, I was very confused.

I will read from the first thread (I started mainly reading from Heresy 50 or so, based on the wolfmaid's a Guide to Heresy and the ensuing discussions), I guess I still need a lot to read before I make other comments, it is a huge body of work, sorry for repetitious comments :)

Just for the record, what I was arguing for was the wall as some form of fortification, but the kind that a prison is like and the NW as prisoners rather than border police. Or a fence keeping the live-stock in (Sorry for the ugly imagery). Also (English is my 2nd language as you may have guessed already), I understand "Realm of Men" as a defined geographical space rather than an invisible line separating humans from non-humans, in that case Wildlings wouldn't be part of the realm of men. Taking them to the south of the wall would be defined as invasion into otherlands (Like pigs saving other pigs from a farm separated by a fence). I was arguing the wall is WW saying: "any blood on this side of the line is ours, not just the land, but everything".

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As to the Wall and its true purpose, this is a question that goes back to the very beginning and The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy [actually it goes back beyond that cos that thread in itself was building on ongoing discussions in other threads], but yes, with a nod to the Butcher Crow and his reminder that not all of us agree with all of the ideas discussed on Heresy, there is a very strong belief amongst some of us that the Wall isn't a grotesque military fortification built by men, but is a magical barrier separating the realms of men from the otherlands beyond, and that the reason why the Others are "mysterious" is not because they are as faceless as Tolkein's orcs, but because they are much closer to home.

I'm down with the notion of the Wall as a portal/border as opposed to a military structure, the magic talking door pretty much confirms that.  What's interesting (one of the things anyway) about the weirwood door is that it's located underneath the Wall so logically it must be older.  And yeah, i don't think the WW's are invading, they're coming home.

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Thank you for the reply. I haven't read the world book, so thanks for clarifying the issue, I was very confused.

I will read from the first thread (I started mainly reading from Heresy 50 or so, based on the wolfmaid's a Guide to Heresy and the ensuing discussions), I guess I still need a lot to read before I make other comments, it is a huge body of work, sorry for repetitious comments :)

Quite honestly I'd skip the early stuff and read the centennial project essays and their discussions in the lead-up to Heresy 100.

If there's interest out there - heresy has been a touch slow of late it might be worth running a similar series - or even if the worst comes to the worst repeating the OP essays in the run up to heresy 200.  

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I'm down with the notion of the Wall as a portal/border as opposed to a military structure, the magic talking door pretty much confirms that.  What's interesting (one of the things anyway) about the weirwood door is that it's located underneath the Wall so logically it must be older.  And yeah, i don't think the WW's are invading, they're coming home.

Just to be picky and pedantic the Black Gate is said to be as old as the Wall, while Castle Black is described as the oldest on the Wall, which isn't necessarily the same thing and both reinforce your point.

Whether the White Walkers are invading or "coming home" remains to be seen and depends to an extent on exactly what you mean by coming coming home, but it certainly speaks to what I said earlier about the Others, whether Craster's boys or those behind them, being mysterious not because they are an anonymous threat but rather because there is an intimate connection between them and other people in the story

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Welcome :D  When BC says "broad acceptance" (in reference to the bolded section) I would suggest (with respect) that he is vastly overestimating the support for that particular "pet orthodoxy" of his.  If Jon is the son of R+L then it's pretty obvious to me the most important thing about that fact is that he is the son of BOTH Rhaegar & Lyanna, a child of ice & fire.  It may seem a bit on the nose but then some stuff has to be.

Agreed that Jon's father is going to turn out to be important. No point making him Ned's nephew instead of his bastard if it isn't. My biggest reservation against R+L=J, however, is that it turns Jon's parentage into something too important. As evidenced by the general boards, R+L=J has the potential to overshadow the entire story,and the dozen other major characters.
Then again, R+L=J is most likely true anyway, and I'm just rambling.

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That's basically the problem. A Song of Ice and Fire, both as laid out in the 1993 synopsis and on the page as written is very much an ensemble piece and proclaiming Jon as the embodiment of both and therefore the chosen one who will save the world is totally at odds with this. There's mileage enough in the "simple" fact of his true parentage and the human consequences of that without skewing the story by bringing him to centre stage on a superhuman ticket.

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Just to be picky and pedantic the Black Gate is said to be as old as the Wall, while Castle Black is described as the oldest on the Wall, which isn't necessarily the same thing and both reinforce your point.

If we weren't picky or pedantic then what would we do ?  :D  After I read what I wrote I realised I should have said "older, or at least no earlier than the building of the Wall".  

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Probably do very little, but then again I try very hard to strike a balance between looking for signs and portents in the text as to what's really going on while at the same time trying to avoid dreadfully involved arguments over-analysing it. GRRM is after all only human and as such is fallible.

Doesn't always work of course, but in this case I think its pretty clear we're being offered important information as to the true nature of the Wall.

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Heresy 179 was lost in the maelstrom. 

If you want to rekindle the discussion please feel free.

I just started a new thread, and was going to reference that thread in my own. 

Man, my Sansa-Lady-Rhaenys connection comment was in that thread.  Sucks that it's lost now.  I really enjoyed reading the discussion.

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I just started a new thread, and was going to reference that thread in my own. 

Man, my Sansa-Lady-Rhaenys connection comment was in that thread.  Sucks that it's lost now.  I really enjoyed reading the discussion.

Do you have email notifications enabled? If someone posted it, you should have received an email with their reply, as well as your post (for as far as that person quoted it in his/her post). Of course, that would only help if you haven't thrown the email away since then.

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I've been reading the centennial project and am at the Night King right now. This story and the discussions afterwards are a bit confusing to me, especially wrt:

- The Night Queen's description seems like she is a member of the Others. If so, the fact that she not only passed through the wall, but did it through the Black Gate, is a really big deal! Maybe she was invited in by the NK, why wouldn't that work for Coldhands? it just is odd. I know that maybe Coldhand can pass and does not want to, but it still makes little sense as to why.

- I still do not understand how the wildlings could have helped really. Ygritte version says the story as if the Wildlings were at the south side of the wall when the battle happened. I have problems understanding how that could have happened, given that the only way through the wall was through the Black gate, they needed a NW brother to open the gate, and had to go through the NF. Given that the NK had the complete control over the castle, how did they get to be on the south side to have any contributions?! And given that all the NW was under the sorcery of the NK, who opened the gate?

- Regardless of whether or not NQ REALLY was one of the Others, Old Nan tells the story in a manner that means she(Old Nan) believes her to be one. Still, Old Nan is completely unimpressed that NQ has passed through the wall. That is explained by her other statements that the wall is standing as long as NW is true, so she believes that there is no magical ability in the wall and all its power comes from the military power behind it. Given that the Wildlings also have the exact same story, and are just as unimpressed with the fact that the evil evil others have passed through the wall, they must hold the same belief in the non-magical powers of the wall and the power of NW. Why would they then plan on attacking the wall and basically eliminating the NW (at least as an effective military power) and then take shelter behind the wall?

- There is something REALLY wrong with the psychology of the story in general: first, the 13th LC of the NW does fall in love with the great enemy. Old Nan says it is because he had no fear, but fear should be the least of the objections here. Then after giving her his soul (and seed), he brings her to the headquarters of NW!! Wouldn't other NW try to kill her? It just is such an irrational move. Had they gone to the vast, unknown north, they would be living, and having many many sacrificial kids, for years. NW HQ is bound to attract a lot of definitely unwanted attention, wouldn't you say? Secondly, it makes little sense from the NQ point of view to want to attract the LC. He is THE enemy, what good can come of it? Was that act some form of message to the Starks? or the Wildlings? I read that some believed that LC had an interesting bloodline which would explain the attraction, not so much the coming to the NF.

- The last point is the concept of sacrifice. It seems to me that the others really care about the issue of consent, if they go to great lengths to come up with agreements where people willingly let go of their children rather than snatching them. It is just very modern and interesting :D

I am sorry if these seem like ramblings or they have been discussed before, this story just make no sense what so ever in terms of the players of it. I know that there are alternative theories about changing of the history, but wouldn't people of the time ask the same kind of questions?! I just think that Andals would get really scared knowing that the Others could in principle pass the wall.

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 @shizett, just a small quibble, but I don't think we can equate the cotf-brand of magic with the brand of magic that is called "blood magic" in the books. MMD was a bloodmage, and Mel and Dany more than dabble in that craft. I'd call the cotf-brand "green magic". Theirs is wed to natural processes, rather than the undoing of natural processes.

 

Doesn't always work of course, but in this case I think its pretty clear we're being offered important information as to the true nature of the Wall.

Agreed. But, I'd point out that the oath (the elder oath) Samwell speaks to the Black Gate proves that the portal predates the Wall:

"Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said.

"walls" not "Wall"...

And happy holiday season Heretics!

 

 

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 @shizett, just a small quibble, but I don't think we can equate the cotf-brand of magic with the brand of magic that is called "blood magic" in the books. MMD was a bloodmage, and Mel and Dany more than dabble in that craft. I'd call the cotf-brand "green magic". Theirs is wed to natural processes, rather than the undoing of natural processes.

Hmmm. So the sacrifices to the weirwood trees are not related to their magic at all?

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I've been reading the centennial project and am at the Night King right now. This story and the discussions afterwards are a bit confusing to me, especially wrt:

- The Night Queen's description seems like she is a member of the Others. If so, the fact that she not only passed through the wall, but did it through the Black Gate, is a really big deal! Maybe she was invited in by the NK, why wouldn't that work for Coldhands? it just is odd. I know that maybe Coldhand can pass and does not want to, but it still makes little sense as to why.

- I still do not understand how the wildlings could have helped really. Ygritte version says the story as if the Wildlings were at the south side of the wall when the battle happened. I have problems understanding how that could have happened, given that the only way through the wall was through the Black gate, they needed a NW brother to open the gate, and had to go through the NF. Given that the NK had the complete control over the castle, how did they get to be on the south side to have any contributions?! And given that all the NW was under the sorcery of the NK, who opened the gate?

- Regardless of whether or not NQ REALLY was one of the Others, Old Nan tells the story in a manner that means she(Old Nan) believes her to be one. Still, Old Nan is completely unimpressed that NQ has passed through the wall. That is explained by her other statements that the wall is standing as long as NW is true, so she believes that there is no magical ability in the wall and all its power comes from the military power behind it. Given that the Wildlings also have the exact same story, and are just as unimpressed with the fact that the evil evil others have passed through the wall, they must hold the same belief in the non-magical powers of the wall and the power of NW. Why would they then plan on attacking the wall and basically eliminating the NW (at least as an effective military power) and then take shelter behind the wall?

- There is something REALLY wrong with the psychology of the story in general: first, the 13th LC of the NW does fall in love with the great enemy. Old Nan says it is because he had no fear, but fear should be the least of the objections here. Then after giving her his soul (and seed), he brings her to the headquarters of NW!! Wouldn't other NW try to kill her? It just is such an irrational move. Had they gone to the vast, unknown north, they would be living, and having many many sacrificial kids, for years. NW HQ is bound to attract a lot of definitely unwanted attention, wouldn't you say? Secondly, it makes little sense from the NQ point of view to want to attract the LC. He is THE enemy, what good can come of it? Was that act some form of message to the Starks? or the Wildlings? I read that some believed that LC had an interesting bloodline which would explain the attraction, not so much the coming to the NF.

- The last point is the concept of sacrifice. It seems to me that the others really care about the issue of consent, if they go to great lengths to come up with agreements where people willingly let go of their children rather than snatching them. It is just very modern and interesting :D

I am sorry if these seem like ramblings or they have been discussed before, this story just make no sense what so ever in terms of the players of it. I know that there are alternative theories about changing of the history, but wouldn't people of the time ask the same kind of questions?! I just think that Andals would get really scared knowing that the Others could in principle pass the wall.

Oh, big questions much discussed before, so forgive me if I don't respond to everything in a rush, especially as its my bed-time.

In general terms though Old Nan has to be treated warily on this one. The alliteration of the 13th commander of the Nights Watch ruling for 13 years is a bit suspicious in the first place. There are big question-marks over his white lady and indeed its actually suggested in the World Book that the "corpse Queen" links her not to the Others but to the Barrow Kings, who were supposedly necromancers.

Either way there's a fairly broad [which aint the same as universal] acceptance that the story is really about a Stark family quarrel and that the original Nights Watch were merely the gatekeepers on the Black Gate - and those who survived the overthrow of the Nights King probably ended up with their heads decorating spikes when a "new" Watch took over and started building the castles - remember that the Nightfort is not only the oldest castle on the Wall but twice as old as Castle Black, which rather suggests that for a long time there were no castles on the Wall.

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 I'd point out that the oath (the elder oath) Samwell speaks to the Black Gate proves that the portal predates the Wall:

 

And happy holiday season Heretics!

I'll agree with the sentiment, but not with the assertion that the portal predates the Wall. If it did there would be no need for a portal. Rather the oath suggests that when the Nights King was overthrown the Watch as we know them put a magic "padlock" on the gate in order to seal it up.

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Hmmm. So the sacrifices to the weirwood trees are not related to their magic at all?

Mayhaps they are, but we've experienced those sacrifices from the tree's POV now. Bran tastes the blood. Trees gain nutrients from the soil, and blood and bone serve as fertilizer. If the sacrifices had resurrected someone, or hatched some dragon eggs, I might be inclined to see the transaction in a more magical light, but otherwise, it seems like two birds with one stone: First Men ridding themselves of the condemned, and giving the trees some tree food.

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I'll agree with the sentiment, but not with the assertion that the portal predates the Wall. If it did there would be no need for a portal. Rather the oath suggests that when the Nights King was overthrown the Watch as we know them put a magic "padlock" on the gate in order to seal it up.

Bran passed through a weirwood portal to enter BR's cave of wonders, yet no wall of ice encompassed it. There is also the entrance to the crypts of Winterfell. Not all portals need require works visible from space to validate their presence. I'd argue the Black Gate is the real portal, and the Wall is merely a funnel towards it. I'm thinking the Black Gate has far less to do with the monstrous wall of ice, and far more to do with the spells, realms, and hinge that predate it.

I think the First Men built the Wall to amplify the Black Gate's influence. It is the root from which it sprang.

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