Bakker XLI Redux: Measure is Still Unceasing (And a date is revealed for The Great Ordeal)

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Yeah when Bakker does something that isn't mind numbingly perfect in everyway, he's doing it on purpose. *rolls eyes*

Who's saying Bakker does everything perfect? There's plenty in the books I struggle with and dislike, not perfect by any means. Anyhow, the Mark, and the debate on damnation is a central theme to the books. Hence, it being brought up again, and again. 

[Darth Richard II]

Some people here, in my humble opinion, like Bakker a little too much.

[kuenjato]

I'm hoping that expanded appendix will be split between both books. I'm hoping we get the expanded appendix.

 

Also, while I like Bakker (probably "too much"), there's no way I'm forking $38 dollars for a PDF of that story. 

[Curethan]

Some people here, in my humble opinion, like Bakker a little too much.

I'm curious.  What are the implications of liking Bakker 'too much'?  

Could we poor, simple folk fall victim to his devious endorsement of misogyny? 

[Ser Drizztos]

Bakker does something that isn't [...] perfect

Heresy!

[Kalbear]

Well, it might not be exactly true. Who knows exactly what the mark means, who's damned and who's not. Who worships the right way, the Inrithi say sorcerors are damned, doesn't mean its true.

Mimara sees all sorcerers so far as very, very damned, and expects to see them this way. Her view is the objective one. Therefore, sorcerers are very much damned. 

We don't know who worships the right way or not, but sorcery appears to be a problem. Using God's tools without God's taste is not cool. The Fanim recollecting God's voice appears to be kosher, however. 

[Curethan]

Yeah, Mimara seems the most reliable.  

Mundane Fanim are still largely fucked though, imo.  Slavery and oppression are Bad Things according to Mimara at Cil Aujis.  And the Fanim don't have uber-demons/aspects to intervene for them.

Interestingly, the Non-men held sorcery as part of their religion.  Perhaps the Cish have learned how to properly 'hide their voices'.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

 

Yea, you're right. Still its central to everything going on. This a series where damnation of the soul is what motivates varying entities. Consult, Seswatha?, and maybe even Kellhus. 

And, what if every sorceror isn't damned? We've seen two(?) through Mimara. If there isn't more to it than the Mark=Damnation I will be very surprised. If not, well then, its some unnecessary shit repeated too many times, I agree.

 

ETA: This was in response to Kalbear. It decided to quote another though. 

[Spring Bass]

Interestingly, the Non-men held sorcery as part of their religion.  Perhaps the Cish have learned how to properly 'hide their voices'.

I got the vibe that it was just delusion on their part - they thought they'd figured out how to make their souls invisible to the predators of the Outside, but they hadn't (hence why a ton of them jumped ship to the Consult despite what the Inchoroi did to them, once they realized that). You'd think if it actually worked, they'd still be teaching it in the Mandate School later on.

Certainly the human Schools have their delusions as well. Their reaction to damnation pre-Kellhus seems to have largely been "it's a bunch of self-contradictory bullshit" and "we don't care" (except for the Mandate School, where it's part of their belief system).

We don't know who worships the right way or not, but sorcery appears to be a problem. Using God's tools without God's taste is not cool. The Fanim recollecting God's voice appears to be kosher, however. 

Part of the "Fanim got the theology right" element of the story.

 

[Madness]

Also, while I like Bakker (probably "too much"), there's no way I'm forking $38 dollars for a PDF of that story. 

There's a link below the official journal publication for an archived PDF of the story, kuenjato.

[Kalbear]

Also, on reading the Crash Space thing - I'm becoming more and more convinced that the Inverse Fire thing is entirely a red herring as far as what is True.

The claim was (in the False Sun) that the Consult had the 'truth' of what damnation was on their side, and that was a problem for the Nonmen - but I think now that whatever Truth they had was really this system that would make a person believe in damnation to the very pit of their souls. If the Inchoroi are what Bakker thinks that we will turn out to be and Crash Space is another step towards that delusion, then the obvious conclusion is that the Inverse Fire is just an advanced version of what is in Crash Space. 

And if that's the case, their damnation isn't at all preordained by their values or their practices. 

That'd be one interesting twist. What if Mimara looked at an Inchoroi and didn't see them as damned? 

[Curethan]

@Electric Bass I was thinking that the non-men didn't have the 'hiding your voice' thing down pat- just that the theory was there. Probably never thought to poke their own eyes out and rebuild their metaphysical perspective in the absence of vision. 

Also re. the Fanim, all men are deceived all of the time and all that.  I don't think it's possible to be a self righteous shit-lord and maintain the objective moral high-ground in Earwa.

@Kalbear  If the Inchies weren't damned that would be a pretty huge ironic joke, especially considering the title "the Unholy Consult". Other problem with that speculation (from my perspective) is that they have their own aporetic sorcerers. 

[Kalbear]

 If the Inchies weren't damned that would be a pretty huge ironic joke, especially considering the title "the Unholy Consult". Other problem with that speculation (from my perspective) is that they have their own aporetic sorcerers. 

It would! Imagine, though, that Kellhus' whole goal is to simply convince the Consult that either damnation isn't that big of a deal (IE, they're damned but the IF doesn't actually indicate what damnation is) or that damnation isn't necessarily where they have to go because someone like Mimara can judge them holy if she chooses to, like she did with the rapist guy.

Dunno why aporetics are particularly problematic. Chorae appear to be something of a key for Mimara. And if the important thing is to have a pregnant woman, dunno why an aporetic would help them. They would have been missing a pretty key component of the Judging Eye this whole time. 

[Curethan]

I think I misunderstood you. So you're suggesting that Mimara is actively radiating objective judgement?  She doesn't actually redeem Galian as I recall - she sees the act that damns him the most (i.e. the rape and murder of a little girl) and declares that redemption is still possible. Idk if that means it is something she can do about it or that Galian can redeem himself some other way.  

Aporetics are only potentially problematic (from my perspective) because I think Mimara is an aporetic sorceress.  Probably next level from the Consult aporetics though, I agree that the JE is probably unique to her.  

Recall that chorae were manufactured by the Inchies using human aporetic sorcerers - aporetic magic also seems to be important in the engineering of the no-god's physical form.  

I just think they probably have a pretty thorough understanding of what can be 'contradicted' and what can't - i.e. whether they have any chance of redemption beyond rewriting everything completely.  Completely speculative on my part.

[Kalbear]

She doesn't actually redeem Galian as I recall - she sees the act that damns him the most (i.e. the rape and murder of a little girl) and declares that redemption is still possible. 

She looks at him and says 'I forgive you' and he immediately goes limp. 

Aporetics are only potentially problematic (from my perspective) because I think Mimara is an aporetic sorceress. 

She's not a sorceress at all. She doesn't have the Mark or the stain. Dunno what you'd call a Fanim - priest? Shaman? 

 

Recall that chorae were manufactured by the Inchies using human aporetic sorcerers - aporetic magic also seems to be important in the engineering of the no-god's physical form.  

I just think they probably have a pretty thorough understanding of what can be 'contradicted' and what can't - i.e. whether they have any chance of redemption beyond rewriting everything completely.  Completely speculative on my part.

Maybe. My take is that the Consult didn't really have much figured out until they got Shae, and Shae is the real key to things. The inchies didn't do the No God until the Consult came along; the Inchies seemed to want to wipe out all life as their only option. The No-God appears to be something different. Even the nonmen might not understand what the No-God is about. Aporetics were an ancient magic that was around before the Inchies, right? Some philosophical wanking of what is and isn't possible seems a lot more in Shae's wheelhouse and not in the inchies' space. 

[Curethan]

She looks at him and says 'I forgive you' and he immediately goes limp. 

Yeah, I read that as her spoiling his, um, rapist mood.  By forgiving him she only frees him of his 'final sin'.  Her dialogue to him preceding that indicates that he must save himself from all the other sins that damn him.  Idk.

She's not a sorceress at all. She doesn't have the Mark or the stain. Dunno what you'd call a Fanim - priest? Shaman? 

Well, that's debatable and is probably just a semantic difference anyway.  The psukhe is consistently referred to as sorcery.  Chorae are the only demonstrated example of aporetic sorcery we have and they don't have a Mark or stain either.

My feeling is that whenever someone or something uses metaphysics to alter the state of physical reality it's a type of sorcery (i.e. the changes are powered from a non-physical source).  Perhaps it's worth noting that Ciphrang have an incredibly deep Mark whilst Yatwerian magic doesn't.  I feel like perhaps the Mark derives from some kind of proscribed intentionality (i.e. the way people use magic) rather than the source of the power.

My thought about Mimara is based on what she does when she passes through the Chorae and banishes the Wight in Cil Aujis.  I can't see it as anything other than some type of magic.  

Maybe. My take is that the Consult didn't really have much figured out until they got Shae, and Shae is the real key to things. The inchies didn't do the No God until the Consult came along; the Inchies seemed to want to wipe out all life as their only option. The No-God appears to be something different. Even the nonmen might not understand what the No-God is about. Aporetics were an ancient magic that was around before the Inchies, right? Some philosophical wanking of what is and isn't possible seems a lot more in Shae's wheelhouse and not in the inchies' space. 

I agree that Shae is key to making the No-god work. However, the Inchies did manufacture chorae prior to his defection, so they had some understanding of the Aporos. When Nil'giccas warns Seswatha about the Consult's plan to raise the no-god he says they have resurrected one of the Inchoroi's ancient designs. I suspect it's something like fission, they knew it was theoretically possible but lacked the ability to actually do it.  And yeah, there's a bit on the Aporos somewhere in the Glossary that claims the Aporetics were banned and exiled from Cunnoroi culture because of impiety and they later went over to the Inchies.

[kuenjato]

There's a link below the official journal publication for an archived PDF of the story, kuenjato.

Oh, thanks! I was a bit preoccupied and didn't notice the freebee.

[lokisnow]

Yeah when Bakker does something that isn't mind numbingly perfect in everyway, he's doing it on purpose. *rolls eyes*

There are certainly imperfections and inconsistency in the series, but I don't think the metaphysics of the mark and damnation are among them, they are probably consistent but our information is crucially incomplete or purposefully diffuse and obfuscated

[Rhom]

Totally off topic... Did a ton of people not make the forum transition?

It seems that topics are moving pretty slowly these days. The Acts of Caine thread has been lingering on the first page with no new posts for days.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Totally off topic... Did a ton of people not make the forum transition?

It seems that topics are moving pretty slowly these days. The Acts of Caine thread has been lingering on the first page with no new posts for days.

I wonderd the same. I had problems logging in tO'Day, it was saying my browser wasn't excepting cookies, but I didn't turn it off. Either technical problems or people put off by the new format? Some getting used to?