Doctor Who -- The Forum is Regenerating

[polishgenius]

So Clara died trying to save the life of a man, who's life wasn't even in danger to begin with? I liked her final speech, but when I really stopped and thought about it, the writing was just stupid. 

To be fair, she didn't know that.

[dog-days]

Thinking again about Clara's risk-taking - are we supposed to imagine that she wants to die on some level? That the risk-taking is her response to Danny's death and her guilt?  

So Clara died trying to save the life of a man, who's life wasn't even in danger to begin with? I liked her final speech, but when I really stopped and thought about it, the writing was just stupid. 

That was actually something that interested me. (I feel too ambivalent overall to say that I liked it.) But the writers could easily have chosen to give Clara a death that was straightforwardly heroic. Instead, Clara's heroic act proves to be, first, entirely unnecessary and, second, fatal. 

It felt almost like a parody of a regular Doctor Who episode. Headed for distaster , the Doctor pulls a rabbit out of a hat at the last minute and all is well. Nobody dies! Here, Clara reaches into the hat, and pulls out her own death. 

[All-for-Joffrey]

So Clara died trying to save the life of a man, who's life wasn't even in danger to begin with? I liked her final speech, but when I really stopped and thought about it, the writing was just stupid. 

I don't think this was bad writing at all. There's no reason for anyone to believe that the Doctor, Clara, or anyone else didn't realize Rigsy wasn't in actual danger. Remember, she takes the tattoo from him before they discover that the two-faced woman is still alive and that Ashildr lured the Doctor there. Even as the audience, at the point Clara takes the tattoo, there's no reason to believe that Ashildr won't go through with killing Rigsy. I actually quite liked it. Clara died because she was trying to be too clever and too much like the Doctor. It was very solid imo.

[Castel]

Is anyone not impressed by Maisie Williams? I feel like her character should work for me, but doesn't. Not shocked at all that she runs around betraying the Doctor every twelfth minute nor do I really feel for her at all.

 

Capaldi is killing it though. 

[Davros Seaworth]

May I join you guys?

The only episodes this series I didn't like were The Girl Who Died, The Woman Who Lived and Sleep No More. Face the Raven was Kinda meh, at least until near the end, I'm not surprised Clara left since I knew she wouldn't be in the next episode and because she's leaving this year (is that a spoiler?) but I didn't guess it until she took Rigsy (or is it Rigby?)'s place and then I just added it to the heavy foreshadowing of Clara taking too many risks.

Is anyone not impressed by Maisie Williams? I feel like her character should work for me, but doesn't. Not shocked at all that she runs around betraying the Doctor every twelfth minute nor do I really feel for her at all.

 

Capaldi is killing it though. 

I didn't think she was a particularly great character, and the fact it happened again makes it predictable. I wonder if they're trying to make her into a Loki (like in Joanne Harris's Runemarks/light at least).

[All-for-Joffrey]

Is anyone not impressed by Maisie Williams? I feel like her character should work for me, but doesn't. Not shocked at all that she runs around betraying the Doctor every twelfth minute nor do I really feel for her at all.

 

Capaldi is killing it though. 

I actually quite enjoyed her in Face the Raven. I thought Ashildr's arc in the Girl Who Died/The Woman Who Lived was way too derivative of Arya's plot arc in GOT (even though The Woman Who Lived was one of the few episodes I enjoyed this season) but I feel like in Face the Raven she's very much her own character and it gives Maisie a chance to establish herself as an actress outside of being Arya Stark. I also like the fact that she wasn't just a muhahahahahaha monster of the week in this one -- she had damn good reasons for betraying the doctor and the best villains always have a good justification in what they do and aren't necessarily actually bad people/have nuance. 

[Arkash]

Really liked "Face the Raven", but "The Magician's Apprentice" and "The Woman who Lived" are still my favs of the season.

[mormont]

Thinking again about Clara's risk-taking - are we supposed to imagine that she wants to die on some level? That the risk-taking is her response to Danny's death and her guilt?

She says something to that effect herself, but even she seems unsure.

[felice]

Like your point about the difficulty of finding an uncontrived way of removing companions from the Tardis. 

Moffat changing the role of the companion from someone who lives in the TARDIS to someone with an established life elsewhere (ie present day London) who goes on the occasional day trip with the Doctor makes it a great deal harder to get rid of them.

[Castel]

I actually quite enjoyed her in Face the Raven. I thought Ashildr's arc in the Girl Who Died/The Woman Who Lived was way too derivative of Arya's plot arc in GOT (even though The Woman Who Lived was one of the few episodes I enjoyed this season) but I feel like in Face the Raven she's very much her own character and it gives Maisie a chance to establish herself as an actress outside of being Arya Stark. I also like the fact that she wasn't just a muhahahahahaha monster of the week in this one -- she had damn good reasons for betraying the doctor and the best villains always have a good justification in what they do and aren't necessarily actually bad people/have nuance. 

On being her own character: wasn't she in her previous appearance? I would say that that is where she was established as a character. Here, she's a tool to get the Doctor somewhere with vague reasons in her Diagon Alley ripoff.

I hope she's gone after this though. Because she's occupying a very obnoxious space between good (or at least sympathetic) guy and bad guy.She's not positioned as a bad guy so she won't be dealt with in an expedient manner but she's always (well, 2/3 times) causing shit, and then walking away because she's supposed to be one of the characters we feel for.  It reminds me of Clara's more obnoxious actions like the Kill the Moon thing or the nearly villainous act of dumping the TARDIS keys.

 

Moffat changing the role of the companion from someone who lives in the TARDIS to someone with an established life elsewhere (ie present day London) who goes on the occasional day trip with the Doctor makes it a great deal harder to get rid of them.

Why does that make it harder?

[dog-days]

Moffat changing the role of the companion from someone who lives in the TARDIS to someone with an established life elsewhere (ie present day London) who goes on the occasional day trip with the Doctor makes it a great deal harder to get rid of them.

Yes...I suppose one way would be to let them find a cause on their travels that they want to support more than they want to travel through time and space on fantastic adventures. I can't really imagine any companion choosing the school run, an open plan office, taxes and the M25 over the Tardis, always and forever.  Unless the companion were an alien, and everyday life in the UK seemed wonderfully exotic. But even the Doctor wouldn't want to be stuck on Earth forever. 

I hope she's gone after this though. Because she's occupying a very obnoxious space between good (or at least sympathetic) guy and bad guy.

That's precisely why I like her character and want her to show up again! :-) 

[polishgenius]

 

Yes...I suppose one way would be to let them find a cause on their travels that they want to support more than they want to travel through time and space on fantastic adventures. I can't really imagine any companion choosing the school run, an open plan office, taxes and the M25 over the Tardis, always and forever.  Unless the companion were an alien, and everyday life in the UK seemed wonderfully exotic. But even the Doctor wouldn't want to be stuck on Earth forever. 

Annoyingly, he credibly built up that very idea with Amy and Rory (planting the idea that their real life was kicking in and they were beginning to realise they couldn't balance both, plus risk disappearing and their friends and family not knowing what happened) and then chucked it all out for the ridiculous, badly thought-out ending of Angels Take Manhattan.

[Castel]

 

That's precisely why I like her character and want her to show up again! :-) 

If I actually gave a shit about the goals that she was allying with (almost certainly untrustworthy) people with to fuck the Doctor over it might be different for me too. But...I don't. 

[dog-days]

Annoyingly, he credibly built up that very idea with Amy and Rory (planting the idea that their real life was kicking in and they were beginning to realise they couldn't balance both, plus risk disappearing and their friends and family not knowing what happened) and then chucked it all out for the ridiculous, badly thought-out ending of Angels Take Manhattan.

I did notice that Amy and Rory were talking about the difficulty of balancing their earth life with their Tardis life, and that people were noticing that they were aging faster than they should have been. But I'm not sure that I'd have ultimately been happier with a domestic suburban ending than what we got served up. (Which, admittedly, was also a domestic, potentially suburban ending, but in took place the past, and so was somewhat disguised.) 

I might have felt as if the message was that full adulthood coincides with the end of fun and adventure. That probably comes from having a child influenced/overshadowed by the likes of The Ship That Flew and the Narnia books. When I say that the companion should find a cause that's worth leaving the Tardis for, I mean something a bit more exciting and interesting than a semi in Leadworth. 

("But you are too old for Narnia, dog-days!" Grrr.noimbloodywellnotimnottoooldfornarniapleasekeepyourageistopinionstoyourselfaslanyouhairyfourleggedjesuswannabe)

If I actually gave a shit about the goals that she was allying with (almost certainly untrustworthy) people with to fuck the Doctor over it might be different for me too. But...I don't. 

I'm spoilering this not because it's an official spoiler (it's not) but because it's a guess that I heard from a blogger and liked. The people who want the Doctor are the Timelords. So, yes, almost certainly untrustworthy. But not as bad as the Daleks or the Cybermen. 

Her goal is apparently to create and maintain a safe-haven for refugees. We haven't seen much of it, and I can't say I care much more about it than you. But it seems to me to be a fairly noble kind of goal to have. I'm a sucker for characters that combine a lofty ideal with dreadful methods, especially when both come attached to a damaged personality. Ashildr's joined the club, and hopefully will get more opportunities in future to be morally questionable but not totally savage. 

[williamjm]

Thinking again about Clara's risk-taking - are we supposed to imagine that she wants to die on some level? That the risk-taking is her response to Danny's death and her guilt? 

I'm not sure that she necessarily wanted to die, but I think maybe she wasn't valuing her life as much as she might have done normally. I think potentially she might also have been seeking out the excitement and adrenaline rush of all the adventures as a distraction from mourning Danny.

Is anyone not impressed by Maisie Williams? I feel like her character should work for me, but doesn't. Not shocked at all that she runs around betraying the Doctor every twelfth minute nor do I really feel for her at all.

Capaldi is killing it though.

I thought her character was more interesting in her previous episode than this one, although that might be expected since the previous episode was all about her whereas here she isn't the main focus.

[sifth]

I don't think this was bad writing at all. There's no reason for anyone to believe that the Doctor, Clara, or anyone else didn't realize Rigsy wasn't in actual danger. Remember, she takes the tattoo from him before they discover that the two-faced woman is still alive and that Ashildr lured the Doctor there. Even as the audience, at the point Clara takes the tattoo, there's no reason to believe that Ashildr won't go through with killing Rigsy. I actually quite liked it. Clara died because she was trying to be too clever and too much like the Doctor. It was very solid imo.

 

It just seems liked a very poorly executed way to get rid of Clara if you ask me. I'd much rather have her go out with a bang, than with a wimpier. I mean the rules for this raven creature seemed to change on the fly, as the plot needs them to. One minutes we learn it can be transferred, granted Clara and her friend have no idea how to transfer it; so the plot allows it to magically transfer on it's own. Than when it got removed, suddenly we learn that once it's transferred it can't be removed; because we need a way to get rid of Clara at the end of this episode so why not, lol

 

The writers made Clara look like a complete fool too, by having her screw with something she knew next to nothing about.

 

Also was I suppose to feel shocked when Arya betrayed the Doctor again, because that has become a joke in and of itself.

[felice]

Why does that make it harder?

It removes the options of finally getting them home (eg Ian & Barbara), or them deciding they want to settle down somewhere and have a normal life, because they already have a normal life and home in addition to going on exciting adventures across time and space. Basically, there's no such thing as a happy departure for these sorts of companions; they have to die, stop liking the Doctor, or have some contrived barrier to keep the Doctor away (though RTD did that anyway with Rose and Donna). Though setting up a plausible happy departure wouldn't be easy with the new series format anyway; the rapid pace doesn't allow for the companion to build a sufficiently strong bond with anywhere they might like to stay. Not that the classic series usually did a good job of that either, but it could have done it, with more sedately paced stories running over four or six weeks (as I recall Jo Grant's departure was handled pretty well).

[mormont]

It just seems liked a very poorly executed way to get rid of Clara if you ask me. I'd much rather have her go out with a bang, than with a wimpier. I mean the rules for this raven creature seemed to change on the fly, as the plot need them to. One minutes we learn it can be transferred, granted Clara and her friend have no idea how to transfer it; so the plot allows it to magically transfer on it's own. Than when it get removed, suddenly we learn that once it's transferred it can't be removed; because we need a way to get rid of Clara at the end of this episode so why not, lol

My impression was it can only be transferred a single time.

The writers made Clara look like a complete fool too, by having her screw with something she knew next to nothing about.

That, at least, is a fairly well established character trait.

[Castel]

It removes the options of finally getting them home (eg Ian & Barbara), or them deciding they want to settle down somewhere and have a normal life, because they already have a normal life and home in addition to going on exciting adventures across time and space. Basically, there's no such thing as a happy departure for these sorts of companions; they have to die, stop liking the Doctor, or have some contrived barrier to keep the Doctor away (though RTD did that anyway with Rose and Donna). Though setting up a plausible happy departure wouldn't be easy with the new series format anyway; the rapid pace doesn't allow for the companion to build a sufficiently strong bond with anywhere they might like to stay. Not that the classic series usually did a good job of that either, but it could have done it, with more sedately paced stories running over four or six weeks (as I recall Jo Grant's departure was handled pretty well).

Ah,thanks for explaining. 

 

[sifth]

My impression was it can only be transferred a single time.That, at least, is a fairly well established character trait.

Hey, all I'm saying is I could see the ending coming a mile away the second Clara said "give me the mark".

The fact that her friend was never in any real danger to begin with made her death all the more meaningless.